Adil Najam
This seems to have suddenly become a news-heavy day. Lal Masjid blast on teh one hand and now Musharraf-Benazir meetings. The News reports on this:
The second round of meeting between President General Pervez Musharraf and former Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto is underway here, the reliable sources said. The first round of the meeting lasted for about lasted for 55 minutes and it was a short a meeting. The ISI chief, some personalities of Arab countries and western diplomats also attended the meeting, the other sources said. Although the details of the meeting were not issued, however, the reports said that Musharraf and Benazir discussed important issues including current political situation in Pakistan.
“If Musharraf-Benazir meeting has been held it could be the final round of PPP-government talks and it is hoped that this meeting will have long-term positive impact on the politics of Pakistan, said Federal Minister for Railways Sheikh Rashid Ahmed while commenting on the meeting. Meanwhile, the reports said that Musharraf will also hold meeting with former Prime Minister Muhammad Nawaz Sharif and Chief Minister Punjab Shahabaz Sharif in Saudi Arabia during the second leg of Musharraf’s visit. However, the PML (N) sources have rejected the reports of Musharraf-Nawaz meeting.
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Things are still too much in flux and too complicated to comment meaningfully on this. Much coming from the insta-pundits is still either the restatement of their already known positions that they now churn out as spin, or is entirely speculative. So, we will wait to see how the dust settles. But it is quite clear that the dust has been kicked and things are in flux. Abb ount kis karwat baithay ga?
In order to get a sense of the pulse of ATP on this issue we are asking the same poll question about a BB-Musharraf deal we did back in April. Let us see what you have to say now.
Now Musharraf’s uncertain future has forced him to deal with a lady to whom he has declared thug and corrupt. After this deal, poor people will never gain any thing and only Benazir and Mussharraf will be benefitted.
It is amazing that after ignoring PML(Q) resistance, Musharraf has decided to make a deal with PPP. I wondering what will happen to PPP Patriot and Chaudhri Brothers. It is true when cat is going to burn down, she puts her kitties under her feet and same thing is going to do Musharraf with Chaudhry Brothers.
It means Musharraf who earned fame to curtail corruption wasn’t right and he didn’t help to create corruption free political system in Pakistan.
It may be naive to expect too much from the deal but it’s weird to keep following the politics of confrontation in such critical times. Those who believed that Lal-Masjid was only a drama, might have rude-awakening today, when the mosque is open again.
Actually, I don’t think this poll is very representative. That’s because between when this poll was first put up, my own view of this “deal” has changed several times due to news reports, the chief justice decision, lal masjid, statements by benazir, etc etc.
On a totally irrelevant note, I am in Pakistan right now and just returned from watching Khuda Kay Liye. I’ll just say this: I didn’t think it was possible, but Shoaib Mansoor has outdone himself once again. Each scene looked like it had been composed like a painting…..the film is very relevant, even more so to all of us expatriates. If they translate it into English, it’ll definitely be understandable to Western audiences. Who knows, we may win a foreign film Oscar before the absurd song-and-dance of Bollywood.
This is a part of the bigger story where Musharraf has been asked to seek a graceful exit by the “core commanders”. (read today’s The News and Urdupoint).
Full story at:
http://free-pakistan.blogspot.com/2007/07/are-core-commanders-asking-musharraf-to.html
This is a last ditch effort by Mush to devise a bailout strategy for himself. I am not sure what BB will gain though.
I don’t think Mush will meet the Sharif’s in Saudia. Nawaz Sharif will only come back to Saudia at his own peril, he previously hoodwinked the Saudi royal family and Mush to allow him to go to London.
There is a ruling establishment and there is the people. There is a small top and a big mass at the bottom.The Top worked very hard to obtain a Free Country for the Indian Muslim Community. Once Pakistan was created the Top was only interested to be in power and only power so that it could have all the benefits on this earth.
So far, in the history of Pakistan, the Top has never bothered for the well being of the people. I do not see why the things will shange now or in any new future.
If there is a deal between a crook and a currupt, no good will come out for Pakistanis. It is a deal between a Satan and a Devil. The compromise beteen the two from the Top is only for the benefit of DEALERS. The consumers will have to pay for their greed (of Top) and for their mismanagement.
I am waiting for the DAY of Bastille when the people will grab the power to get rid of the Top!
With the CJ’s restoration and the prevailing national mood, it will be very hard for the courts to rule in favour of Mush if he tries to get reelected without taking off his uniform.
I expect that he will have to give up the uniform, drop all cases against BB and let her come back to power in return for being elected president.
Consequences for the country: with Mush having completely lost his credibility, he is a liability and the return to civilian rule will be a positive thing.
BB’s return is a bad thing though; it represents the failure of the nation and civil society. Unfortunately, in the prevailing circumstances, it seems inevitable.
I would have said that the Mush-Benazir deal would be good in the sense that it had the potential of bringing more stability to Pakistan. But I think as a direct consequence of this deal, the Sharifs are going to team up with the mullah cadre and the forces of jihad will gain political and electoral legitimacy via the substantial PML vote bank. Then the calls for Shariat are going to come from the opposition benches and not from the Lal Masjids.
On a completely irrelevant note, thank you Eidee Man for providing the first review of KKL; I am heading to PK in a week too and will be sure to catch the show.
As is unfortunately, well-known fact, politics in Pakistan remains the playground of the elite and Uncle Sam. And as long as this status quo remains, the wrong kind of leadership will be the norm and the worst case scenarios cannot be ruled out. Subsequently, the people of Pakistan will continually suffer, unless they smash this vicious circle, once and for all.
Musharraf excels in handpicking worst of the worsts. Benazir surely belongs to the lot who should be with Mush.
Where is the deal? I don
All talk of “a graceful exit” was a ploy to divert the attention of people. Anyone who is thinking of leaving won’t be doing a behind the scenes deal with one of his worst enemies. I was thinking that Musharraf wouldn’t need any further support to stay in power. However that isn’t true as he once again needs a two thirds electorate to confirm the further amendments to the constitution that he needs to stay in power beyond this year. The amendments are needed because otherwise his stay in uniform and as head of state will be quashed by the SC. Now he can stay in power and it can’t be challenged in the courts because it will have the legal cover that he will be getting as a consequence of this deal. In return he will give Benazir the premiership that she is dying for.
So what is so strange about all this. Few things; Benazir’s is only the 3rd major party in the country’s parliaments, behind the Qaaf league and MMA. While Mush won’t need MMA if he gets the support of BB, what will happen to the Qaaf league and its many stakeholders. How would they react to handing over the control to Benazir? Are they as quiescent as they appear, just being happy to serve as Mush’s front, or would the Chaudaries have something to say about this deal. Also Pakis have yet to cast their votes, and would it matter in such a situation where their leaders would be picked for them by powers outside their control. Elections in such an atmosphere would just be a farce to give cover to the plot that has already been played out.
@AUK
Actually, as Nusrat Javed and Mushtaq Minhas remarked on Aaj TV, the biggest General needs the support of PPP for a constitutional amendment to drop the requirement for a 2 year hiatus, following the doffing of the uniform, before being eligible to run for a political office. There was even mention of a rumor to the effect that a meeting of the national assembly has already been called for Monday by the Speaker and Acting President, Ch. Amir Hussain for this purpose.
@Shafique
There is no cause for despondency. The people of Pakistan have just braved a glorious struggle. Their sacrifices have borne fruit and, alHamdulillah, we now have an “Independent” judiciary. Now me, you, Imran Khan and the biggest General get to decide who will be tried in courts
and who can have court cases and charges against them dropped. While I don’t claim other three of you, my vote is to absolve leaders who “were born with a silver spoon in their mouth”. AFAIK, there is only one leader who qualifies, based on self-claims made some years ago in connection with the acquisition of certain properties in Europe.
I am thrilled that our dardmand leaders have put aside their differences, egos, and self interests, and have met to negotiate how power can be transferred to PPP in a “free, fair, and completely transparent” election. I don’t know about you, but I am certainly proud of them; and grateful as well for sparing us the needless, endless, anguish until ballots are cast and counted . Frankly, this approach seems far more civilized to me; and very cost-effective too. My one complaint is against the pouting brothers Sharifov who have refused to meet with the biggest General, and are bent upon spoiling the party in this moment of grave national crisis.
May Allah(SWT) Keep us under the sAya’e Atifat of the biggest retired General and the new mAdar (I mean dukhtar)- millat for a long long time. Ameen (in case you are not up to joing me in prayers this time around).
“Ankh jo kuch dEkhtI hae lab pe Aa saktA nahIN
mehv-e haerat hUN ke dunyA kyA se kyA ho jA’e gI”
Deal or no deal, Pakistan is going to stead the same path, which has been un-intentionally set by the re-instated Chief Justice, to say no and fight back.
People have made it their habit in Pakistan to see too much into the meetings of the giants, while ignoring the huge mass of masses, which has ultimately the biggest say in any thing.
Musharraf survived for that long because people welcomed him with open arms on the fateful day of Oct. 12, 1999. Had they not he would not have survived.
Benazir has survived because people voted for the PPP, for the same reason that Nawaz Sharif has survived. And now Musharraf has no other option but to revert to BB and NS.
Chief Justice has been restored because the people sided with him, for the same reason in 1953 the most in-famous “Law of the Necessity” was incorporated into our legal jargon because people wanted Army to “clean up the mess”.
What ever is bound to happen in the future can only happen if people want it. One can’t just wish away the 160 million people.
Your article in The News was right on money and excellent analysis. Please place here also.
According to Dawn, the assemblies are about to be dissolved
here
Viqar, yes you are right. The constitutional amendment will be to overrule the 2 year mandatory gap between holding a government position and a public office, and not to hold two offices at the same time. Either way, he will twist and contort the constitution whichever way he needs to, so that his stay in power is ensured and extended beyond this year. Here is a question; if the parliament passes an amendment by two thirds majority, can it be challenged in the SC on any grounds. My guess is not, but I am wondering if there is way out of it if it can be proved that the amendment was subjudice as it was based on extending an already illegal rule, or if clashes with any previous SC decision. Yes, Musharraf has already been allowed extra constitutional power once, constitution can’t be amended again to extend his rule.
I agree with Adil Najams analysis in The News —-
“Herein lies General Musharraf’s dilemma. Indeed, Pakistan’s dilemma. Bands of extremist militants have declared war on Pakistan. It is clear that most of Pakistan wants to contain and eradicate this militancy. It is also clear that General Musharraf would also like to do the same. It is not at all clear, however, that most of Pakistan would stand by General Musharraf if he takes on the militants in any significant way at this point. This is not because Pakistanis have suddenly gotten to love militants. They have not. It is because Pakistanis have lost all trust in General Musharraf. To put it rather bluntly, they are fed up with military rule. However, to move against the militants in any meaningful way, General Musharraf needs deep public support; the type of support that the chief justice’s movement had. He does not have that support and no amount of public spending on borrowed money can buy that kind of support.”
Imran said this last night on Capital Talk, “the problem with extremism is political and has no military solution”. NWFP Governer, Aurackzai has come out and said the same. This is no Taleban fighting the Army, it is more widespread across the tribal belt. Pashtuns think that this is a fight between them and America. Musharraf’s rule at the top only helps embolden these attitudes. Unless we return to a democratic setup, where people are willing to listen to each other, this is a looming disaster that is only going to get worse.
I would recommend reading today’s edition of The News. They have stated that a deal has now been completed.
http://tinyurl.com/26xjet
@AUK
The SC cannot set aside a constitutional amendment approved by the required majority in the parliament. Hence if the PPP-P colludes with PML-Q to push through shady constitutional amendments, it will tie the hands of the SC.
The process of agreeing to constitutional changes in back room deals between politicians is deeply flawed. In constitutional debate, various segments of the society have a right to express themselves by all legitimate democratic means, be it debate in the media, public rallies, or representations in hearings of the relevant parliamentary committees. This requires sufficient time and advanced notice. If amendments are to be agreed to in advance, then approved in hastily summoned sessions of the parliament, it is a total sham; it cruelly short circuits the democratic process.
This is why a civil movement needs to continue vigorously in Pakistan for an extended period of time. Our politicians simply cannot be trusted to protect public interest. They are all naked in the political hammam of Pakistan.
Viqar, Again totally agree to your point about the process of constitutional amendments. These constitutional amendments were added by Sharifuddin Pirzada in some dictator’s living room, and passed by our rubber stamp parliaments without knowing their implications and repercussions; actually they couldn’t care less. This is our national character, we don’t pay attention to details, and every dictator has used this characteristic to his fullest advantage.
As an example, what about the much quoted amendments about Mush’s uniform. I don’t think I ever heard about these before this recent uproar (or true to our national character, never paid any attention). However, I don’t think I can take it any more if one more politician comes on tv to tell us that the presidential election will be held “according to constitution” between “September 15th and October 15″, by the existing assemblies. Constitution should represent the aspirations of a people, and not be a document to serve individuals. Since when did individuals become more important than Nations. For how long will these individuals continue to insult our intelligence. A lie is still a lie no matter how many times it is repeated.
As to your point about the struggle by the civil society, I don’t know what shape and form this struggle will take. SC is very vigilant now, and will do all it can to bring the country back to a democratic setup. However as you said, their hands are tied in the face of parliamentary amendments. All the wheelings and dealings that are now taking place are a result of the SC’s resolve, and are an effort to thwart the impending legal process when their machinations will be challenged in the courts. What is most sickening about the behind the scenes games is that the people’s will will be ignored again, and the election will just be a moot point.
Now I seriously doubt that both Mush and BB were on date because now BOTH parties denying that they met each other in “Qasr-e-Musharraf”.
Pyar kiya tu darna kiya
Now families of Both(PML-Q & PPPP…PP) are worried and confused because they are not sure what would be the result of this “Secret love” between BB and Mush.
The amendment may itself be open to a challange in the courts on the grounds of being against the basic spirit of democracy if it allows Mush to stay in uniform.
Remember how the supreme court under Sajjad Ali Shah threw out the 14th amendment during the second term of NS?
Besides, I don’t think it will be possible for BB to convince her party to vote in favour of an amendment that does not clearly stipulate a time for Mush to shed his uniform this year. If he dishonours that agreement and still insists on keeping his second skin, then the courts will be in a position to rule against him.
Here is a link for those looking for material on Benazir’s corruption
http://hsgac.senate.gov/110999_report.htm
It’s worth asking the jialas why their mommy BB does not sue the authors of the above for defamation if the allegations are false.
Raza Rabbani threatens to quit Party if BB goes with Mush.
”The deal” will be good for Pakistan, as it will ”expose” more and more the ”dealers” to the Pakistani Awam.
The need to focus at this moment should however be on:
Who ”should” and not who ”would” the people of Pakistan be chosing, given the choice of a free and fair election.
Being this the ”only appropriate” question on the agenda everywhere, especially in the electronic media, a new realignment of the relatively clean ”off-white” instead of dark shades of ”grey” leaders would emerge.
Isn’t it time for ”The new deal” ?
The deal could be a good thing depending on what the conditions are. If she could force Mush to forego his uniform, for example.
It would be really good to do a fresh poll on this, the results since so much has changed would be of great interest to everyone I think.
Aqil, good point. If the 14th amendment can be revoked by the court, why not the 17th and any followup amendments. That was what I was looking for. Now the legal minds have to come forward and decide how to stop these “dealmakers”.
Did anyone pay attention to the fact that BB hasn’t said a word about Aitezaz since the verdict came out. She tried to snub him by not even inviting him to the APC in London, when originally he was invited back in April. She can’t deal with anyone else taking over a sliver of the limelight from her (that is why the brother was also killed).
Yet again the people of Pakistan lose……while those drooling for power win.
@thanos.
There IS a new poll on this right whcih is what post is about
The word ‘deal’ in itself is not a dignified term in the circumstance where one party to it is a dictator and the other a tried politician. Benazir had the chance to be the premier of Pakistan twice but she could hardly handle the country well. Nodoubt she is a capable women but the way she’s dying to become the prime minister a third time tells upon her character viz she wants power again ! Except for the uniform of President Musharraf , there doesnt seem to be any difference between him and her or their policies: both of them basically same over most matters. I wonder as to what will be the outlook of BIBI towards MQM in case she succeeds to be the next premier? How will she manage to control the sentiments of people in Wazirastan who are inclined towards Talibanism? Will she ever be able to appease the allegedly deprived and angry Baloch’s? How will she curb the Islamization demand of a significant part of population termed as ”extremist” or ‘fundamentalist”‘?
I don’t know whether it’s sin to believe in and act upon the fundamental teachings of Islam in Pakistan and to victimize staunch adherents of Islam by calling them names concocted at their whims by the West and the USA for their vested interest!
It is high time for dictator Musharraf, Benazir, the spouse of Mr. 10 percent, and Raiwind city and estate corrupt Nawaz Sharif to go in oblivion. All three had their time and screwed up.
The real problem is that we do not have leaders who can send these three individuals to oblivion. We have not produced leaders who can introduce transparent and good governance. We keep sending our best and the brightest to professional schools to become engineers, doctors, and government servants. They become corrupt and subservient to these corrupt military officers and jagirdars.
I have but to agree with the poster, RE.
Unfortunately, most of the highly qualified professionals who had been educated abroad either prefer to stay back or if they happen to return to Pakistan they serve as tools in the hands of the ruling parties rather than rather than imparting any service to the country or its people as expected of a patriotic citizen.
I have but to agree with the poster, RE.
Unfortunately, most of the highly qualified professionals who had been educated abroad either prefer to stay back or if they happen to return to Pakistan they serve as tools in the hands of the ruling parties rather than imparting any service to the country or its people as expected of a patriotic citizen.
Why do we keep focusing on who the next leader should be, instead of focusing on establishing a political process. The problem right now is that there is absolutely no process in place where people can exercise their power of choice. Why are we talking about this particular subject – because these 2 are hell bent to subvert the little hope that we have to pick leaders of our choice (however bad that choice may be). We have had it with politics of personalities, where we are told that only the most corrupt and morally bankrupt, who have sold their souls long time ago are our leaders chosen by powers outside our control. If only we have a political process which is left on its own to flourish, the people of this country will wean the corrupt from the conscientious, the good from the bad and the ugly. Our only hope is to have this process in place, and once that is done, it will be self-correcting.
As long as free elections are held, any parleys between mush and benazir are inconsequential. Ultimately, people of Pakistan will have the final say.
But the whole history of this ‘deal’ has been interesting especially the involvement of americans and brits. Urged by Gordon Brown and Richard Boucher, the ex HC of UK to Pakistan, Mark Loyal Grant is said to be the initiator of these contacts and he contacted both Nawaz Sharif and Benazir. Although Nawaz firmly declined but benazir was willing to play along.
So Nawaz has kept his record of saying no. First to Clinton in May 98 and now to brits.
Whats intriguing is why would benazir be willing to clearly compromise her support in Pakistan to bail out mush. Swiss and spanish cases can be a reason but it seems more likely that she is aware that in the presently anti-american environment, she has no chance of winning in elections. This calculation seems to be quite right!!
http://nawaiwaqt.com.pk/urdu/daily/july-2007/30/columns2.php
AUK:
You have a point that the political process should be given a chance to sort itself out. But we must recognize that the military’s absence from politics is only one ingredient.
The examples of Bangladesh and India show that an uninterupted political process alone does not automatically make dynesties go away.
In addition to the military’s withdrawal from politics, we also need to push for reforms within the system aimed at reducing entry barriers for ordinary people, devolving power to the grass roots, intra-party democracy, live debates on manifestos in the electronic media and other such things that would contribute to increasing the participation of the people in the political process and making manifestos and issues more important than personalities.
We need to write articles and letters to newspaper editors, TV talk show hosts, civil society organizations and political parties on such points to create the necessary pressure.
This is absurd, why wouldn’t BB come to pakistan and face the allegations of corruption in the courts which are no longer under the influence of the government. The very fact that she is trying to make a deal proves that she and her hubby know very well that they will be indicted. What authority our commando president has to pardon someone who has made millions of dollars illegaly, is it just to prolong his dictatorship? His slogan should be Mush first rather than pakistan first. The people of pakistan will not accept any such deal and PPP will pay the price in the elections.
Shadi Mobarak
It is very clear now that musharraf’s only aim is to stay in power. NAB is only use to strike a deal with the most corrupt politicians of our society. DEAL: what is it, other than exchange of personal benefits. It is so discouraging. After public advertisement of Benazir’s corruption and her self admission of surrey palace etc, Musharaf is dealing with her to share power.
Unofortuntaely, our country is infested with most corrupt and opportunist politicians, such as MAULANA Diesel Rahman, Qazi Istefa Hussain, Benazir “deal” Bhutto, Nawaz “ittefaq industry” sharif , Shaukat Giggolo Aziz, Shujat “loan”hussain, Altaf “bhutta and Murder” Hussain.
This summarizes our agony and despair.
Only people who stand out is our civil society and Aitzaz Ahsan and possibly Imran Khan.
Aitzaz Ahsan and possibly Imran Khan.
Aitzaz? Uh? Bhai he was not fasting when the couple was sucking this country.
As far as Imran is concerned, just because he has not been tested doesn’t mean he’s a saint but yes I do believe that He should be given a chance like others to use Pakistan as a Lab experiment.
Dont be pessismistic. If we have peace and good policies pakistan will progress no matter who rules Pakistan.
The real question is how BB can deliver peace and solve waziristan issue. If she can deliver the peace that will be great otherwise establishment will bring Nawaz into picture.
There is always some light at end of tunnel.
Salamalikum,
Only people who stand out is our civil society and Aitzaz Ahsan and possibly Imran Khan.
Yes, same Imran Khan who has an illegitimate daughter with Seeta White. As if thieves and thugs weren’t enough as leaders, now let’s have a zaani (fornicator/adulterer) as a leader of Pakistan.
http://tinyurl.com/2andou
And, this is no rumor. Imran Khan, give your DNA if you are innocent!!
As for Aitizaz, Adnan has already mentioned him.
Ibarahim, isn’t according to shariat you need four witnesses before you can blame anyone of some such act? I don’t mind other things but if a person like you keeps talking about shariat then he should stick to its standards all the time.
Also Jamaat Islami and JUI have no problem associating with Imran Khan. JI in response to MQM’s complain also issued an official fatwa on the lines that since no shariat court has as yet decided on Imran’s guilt so its OK to associate with him. My question to you is; who is right you or JI?
Salamalikum,
Yes, true, very true. Jazakallahu khair. However, there are three conditions: Bring four witnesses, the person confesses and the woman becomes pregnant (this is for women). And, hasn’t he confessed that he was a playboy repeatedly? That he changed his ways and has come closer to Islam? It doesn’t matter if he admits to fathering a daughter or not. Zina is a crime regardless of there being a child or not. On top of that, Imran Khan not deciding to give his DNA even when the court ordered him to do so and letting the court declare the daughter as his (and not objecting) is telling. Also, in that youtube link I think he only denies fathering a daughter, never actually denying committing adultery.
Still, you are right I shouldn’t have said “zaani” above because I can’t provide evidence of his confessions here. Allahummagh firli. But, if someone can provide his statements where he says he was a playboy, then that would be enough. Secondly, if someone really wanted to prove him a zaani, probably it might be easy to find four witnesses (four women perhaps?) or four people to whom he confessed. But, yes until that is shown, he can’t be accused as a zaani. I retract what I said earlier.
Salamalikum,
Waheed, I didn’t read your last comment. Yes, JUI and JI are right, and I was in the wrong.
Looks like this thread is showing early signs of degenerating into name calling.
@aqil
Actually Justice Sajjad Ali Shah had only suspended the operation of the 14th amendment to the constitution. His decision, moreover, did not stand as it was overturned following CJ’s exit, by Justice Ajmal Mian.
I shall not defend the amendment itself which, I feel, was affected with malicious intent by the then PM. In any case, however, Justice Shah suspension of it’s operation does not constitute, in my humble view at least, a precedent for overturning future constitutional amendment which are approved by the Parliament.
@AUK
The people of Pakistan have to achieve whatever they will, not with the help of any of the current breed of politicians but inspite of them. So your point is very well taken. Let the people focus on getting the process right with the help of the Judiciary (about whose independence I have doubts, though). In the meantime, the fact that the country is going to be governed by characterless people will have to be borne as best as possible. What can be done in this interim, is to keep the civil movement alive to make sure that the govt does not become too exuberant with its adventures. In the longer term, a properly designed process will itself start weeding out the bad lot.
“Waheed, I didn
Is there any way we can get rid of our leaders ?
Any possibility exporting them to some nicer place on earth?
Are you sure we reeeally need any one of them?
How long are we going to be fooled by these ‘old familiar faces” which no one desires to see again? And why should one do so? Once bitten twice shy, ain’t it?
Dr Asrar Ahmad guessed that Imam Mehdi seems to have born in 1962,,,, Isn’t he old enough now to take up his charge?
To **** with our leaders, hypocrites, both bearded and clean-shaven!
Aqil, Viqar, good discussion here. The thread hasn’t degenerated yet if we take out the insults against Imran. Can we stop discussing that subject (for God’s sake). How is the movie doing by the way?
Why am I so insistent on having a process in place. Because the chaos that has been created in the last 6 months is a result of exactly that – lack of a process. If you ask anyone in America when the presidential election will be held in the year 2096 (if the world is still around then), then there is a good chance that most people will give the correct answer (Nov 6th, 2096). If you ask someone in Pakistan when the presidential elections will be held this year, there is a good chance that everyone except Mush will give the wrong answer. That is our problem. The system is held hostage by a few, and the rest are just silent spectators. How can we start talking about an open dialog, when we don’t even know what it is about.
Salamalikum,
Ibrahim, where can we meet to inflict the punishment of 70 lashes?
Has he been taken to court on my supposed “accusation”? How has he been affected by my “accusation”? So, why implement a qadhaf hadd on me? Also, bring a qadhi/scholarly judge/court if you want a hadd implemented…you can’t carry it out on your own. Also, I would be first given a chance to prove if I make an accusation. Lastly, it is eighty lashes. In any case, I seek Allah’s refuge from punishment here and in the hereafter. I should pay kafarah for this, surely!
AUK:
One serious problem in strengthening the political process has been the disconnect of the masses with democracy. When politics is more about the power politics of personalities and less about the issues of the people, then such a disconnect is natural. However, with the media’s growing strength, if we make demands for bringing manifestos at the center and call for intra-party democracy, then it will get increasingly difficult for them to undermine the process.
Just a simple example. Imagine that today, the TV talkshows start to discuss the system for party tickets and ask why tickets can’t be awarded by letting the party workers in the constituency vote for their representative. It will be hard for any party to defend the dictatorial and non-transparent way in which tickets are doled out. Even their own party workers will gradually start to ask why they don’t have a greater say. And once party workers are in charge of the process, it will be harder for lotas to get party tickets. Besides, coming from the masses, the party workers will naturally want issues to be given more importance than personalities.
Seemingly small things like this one can have a major impact in strengthening the political process. But we are usually looking for more revolutionary (and less achievable) ideas and do not consider such things worthy of our attention even though they are within our reach.
@Adnan siddiqui
As far as Imran is concerned, just because he has not been tested doesn
Aqil, Any openness as you pointed out is what is needed. Yes the process has to be transparent so that young folks could understand what it is about, and learn from it. We have politics of personalities because it suits them, no one can come in and challenge them. As you make the process open, more and more people from all walks of life will become a part of it, instead of professional politicians like we have.
Another aspect media can help in is to have debates between major parties at the national level where their leaders will have to defend themselves and put forth their plans, rather than issuing daily statements through the media, where these are treated as the “word of God (NaozoBillah)”.
A better idea would be to conduct duels between leaders of ”(all) major parties at the national level where their leaders will have to defend themselves”
There is certainly NO need to give another chance to those ‘wolves in sheep’s garb” whom the nation has already tried for well over several times.
Parliamentary and Presidential system has badly failed in our country- not only due to military intervention but also due to wadera, jageerdars, chowdhries , khans and sardars. Ideal solution to end this bak bak would be to elect public reps through referendum only.
i dont understand why bhai Ibrahim is so much against Imran Khan.
Allah Himself allows people to repent for their sins. Were not all kafirs before they became muslims in Hazrat Mohammed (PBUH)’ s time. His personal deeds are between him and ALLAH. However, he has never looted pakistan. He took the MQM bull by his horns who no one had guts to do, even miliary. He built the state of the art hospital in pakistan for cancer patients, which none of our other extremely rich politicians have never done. Beleive me, if BB and Baboo had done anything good for common public from 1% wealth that they have looted, people would have welcommed them back.
At the same time, I dont know much about Aitzaz’s personal sins while he was in government, but as far as i know, there are no corruption cases against him and he has gone against BB’s wishes to get CJ out of trouble and fought for justice. Amongst so many cheap politicians, he at leasts shines at this moment, I cant say for future.
Imran is the cleanest of all and will remain my hero. He never hid is past sins, whereas sheikh rashid, faisal saleh, zardari, shahbaz sharif hide their shameless scandals (again in am not judging them for this as this does not directly affect people).
@asa: I didn’t say people in GHQ are saints. All I know one person in GHQ considers himself more muslim than anyone on earth because he entered in Kaba several times. :-)
on a funny note: I am just enjoying the situation of those Musharraf supporters who always supported him because he kicked both nawaz and bibi out and always felt proud that their ladlay musharraf would never bring filth again. Now how are they feeling? Turab bhai kidher ho?? *grin*
Islam teaches us not to dissipate aspersions and accusations against others, even if you know them to be sinners. Drumming vices of others is evil in itself and a deplorable propaganda. Let us act gracefully towards those whom we know to have sinned and then asked for Allah’s forgiveness (toba) Allah is All Forgiving and Merciful !
After all, there is hardly any person who is free from guilt of one order or the other ,,,,no one can claim to be an Angel !
Here is the rub: Mush will doff the uniform by the year-end while BB’s PPP-P will support his presidential re-election. The quid pro quo is to allow BB to be third-time-lucky by striking down the current legislation that prohibits a third term PM and striking down all corruption and criminal charges against her and hubby Zardari. In addition, the concession of Mush’s uniform- BB will use as a PR ploy to try to fool everybody
Adnan Siddiqi
“Turab bhai kidher ho?? *grin*”
The silence is everywhere. Not just your dear friend “Turab Bhai”.
See at the end of it all, every dictator is the same and thinks of his survival only. In the process, he takes people on a ride…. the likes of your good friend!
In Musharraf’s case I am taken by surprise. Didn’t a lot of people nickname him “Kamal Attaturk” of modern times..
Have you ever seen a spider trapped in his own web. It is a painful sight to watch it curl, twist and ultimately hang from a single strand of web. Sooner or later the house cleaner will take him down with a broom and flush him down for a quick disposal.
Rabbani, Aitzaz and some other seem to form some other party or join some existing party. Not sure, but atleast I am sure that vetran ppp members are not supporting BB.
In an exclusive interview to the Daily Times, Maulana
Fazlur Rehman has said that there is “no harm” in
BB-Musharraf deal if it was “done with all sincerity”.
He also expressed the following views in the same
interview:
. President Musharraf should be given “safe passage”
in his re-election bid in uniform, for he might impose
martial law if he fails to win political support for his
re-elction in uniform (Sheikh Rashid has also been
loudly hinting at this possibility lately)
. However, the opposition will not allow any General to
sieze power in the country
. MMA will win more seats in the NWFP and in Balochistan
in the coming elections; it will outright sweep the polls in
Punjab and Sindh
. As a result of which PPP and PML may be allowed to
form a coalition government at the center
. Gone are the days when masses pinned their hopes on
the generals to solve the problems of the country
I think this last point is extremely significant. All the more
reason for us not to put our trust in the people of Pakistan,
and to heed Maulana’s advice and allow the President “safe
passage” through his re-elction in uniform.
haerAN hUN ke dO TaKHnoN se kyA kyA sOchUN
a parody:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZ_uNmm7no8
Viqar Minai
“All the more reason for us not to put our trust in the people of Pakistan, and to heed Maulana
Movement – Phase II
by Ayaz Mir
The divorce from reality on the part of both Musharraf and Benazir couldn
How can any body trust Mrs.Benazir to bring democracy to the countary, when she is herself “LIFE CHAIRPERSON” OF ppp.Isn’t that Dictatorial?
Interesting Interview of Musharraf with Karan Thapar: This man is sick. He truly believes that he owns the Pak Army and the Core Commanders loyalty is not to the country but to him!!
Musharraf’s Interview with Karan Thapar
Karan Thapar: Does it worry you that even the army’s handling is coming into question?
Musharraf: Army’s handling, I didn’t get your question. Let me tell you Karan, that this is not a Banana Republic Army. This is an army, which has fought wars. It’s an extremely disciplined army. It is totally loyal and committed to me and I know that. So I don’t even want to comment on that quote. Army is for Pakistan. It will do anything for Pakistan’s interests.
Karan Thapar: Does the army support the Kashmir initiative that you have been taking?
Musharraf: 200 percent…… 1,000 per cent.
Karan Thapar: Can I quote to you from The Post dated December 27, 2005: ‘There is a powerful clique of religious parties and their supporters within the military establishment in Pakistan who are sympathetic to the jehadist wars especially in Kashmir.’ Do they support your concepts or ideas of solution?
Musharraf: This is in brief nonsense. If they were there, they will be out of the army tomorrow.
Karan Thapar: You mean you will throw them out.
Musharraf: Absolutely. You think I won’t be worth my salt. If I am army chief and these people are doing that. This is not a Banana Republic army. I am in-charge here and the generals and core commanders are in-charge of core. There is no question of anyone doing this here. They will be out tomorrow morning.
Karan Thapar: You mean the core commanders also.
Musharraf: I have selected the core commanders, so how can they be against me.
Silence in this case has its roots in hypocrisy or apathy. On the other hand, the loudmouth folks like Mullah Fazl are worst than hypocrites. Maybe Dr Ayesha Siddiqa was right:
I think everyone should see this YouTube clip… its really really funny….. worth seeing.
I think ATP is too polite and well-mannered a place to post this directly but I hope putting the link here is OK
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmZswcky_-U
f.Khawaja
The answer lies in continuation of democratic process. It takes nations years of struggle for true democracy to evolve. Today Javed Hashmi spoke in an interview with BBC that PML (N) should hold elections within the party and PML is not be be a cult of any individual or family.
The same will happen with PPP or MQM with single individual leading forever and will not be able to claim titles like “Pir” or Quaid or whatever BB has herself called for lifetime ..
There is no magic wand that will change everyone. First step was good; Free Judiciary, Second step better; Doctrine of Necessity buried forever, lets hope for the third one; Absolute Free and Fair elections and let the people of Pakistan be the masters of their destiny and choose who so ever they want. Not have a scoundrel General/Generals bring in imported PM’s to impose on the people.
In the city I live in, I would accept the most corrupt elected “nazim” to be responsible for my city then have a FSC 3rd Division pass SHO to rule me (out of question), I meant rule the city I live in, by force!
Only shameless people are ruled by dictators. Proud nations reject tyrants because every tyrant is a “mouse” in reality and hide in spider holes when his life is at stake (Saddam Hussain being a prime example).