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Have We Gone Mad? (Reader discretion advised)

Posted on June 9, 2011
Filed Under >Adil Najam, Law & Justice, Society
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Adil Najam

Stop the violence in Pakistan pleaseThis graphic video of the brutal murder of 19 year of Sarfraz Shah being confronted and shot dead by Rangers – supposedly because he was a robber refusing to surrender – is only the latest in a string of state and societal resort to violence that makes one wonder if we have gone totally mad: Lynchings in Sialkot, disappearances and killings in Balochistan, shaming of protesters in Rawalpindi, vigilante justice in Karachi, shootings over load-shedding in Multan, bombings of shrines in Lahore, slaying of a woman Minister in Gujranwala, slaughter of a Christian Minister in Islamabad, and a culture of anger and a validation of violence everywhere, including and most horrendously by those who are supposed to be the custodians of our safety and security.

We are including the graphic video of the brutal murder of Sarfraz Shah, but after the ‘fold’. Reader discretion is required. But if you can bear to watch it, then do so. Because it is well past time that we stop ignoring the rot that threatens our every pore.

What can one do except hold ones head in shame and sadness, and ask oneself: Have we gone totally mad?

Despite the anger and angst that swells within each vein, I would like to believe that we have not. I still believe in Pakistan and Pakistanis. Maybe I do so because I have no option but to believe so. But more than that I do so because I know that even though the insanity is all around me, there is even more disgust and dismay at this insanity. But it is no longer enough to show disgust and dismay. We must speak up – as so many actually are. And that is because I believe that we still have it within ourselves to rise against and reject this violence. If we do not, then who will?

95 Comments on “Have We Gone Mad? (Reader discretion advised)

  1. Gardezi says:
    June 10th, 2011 3:35 am

    Strong post.
    Your continous faith in Pakistan is always inspiring, but I must say it becomes more and more difficult to hold that faith as these things unfold.

  2. Faizan says:
    June 10th, 2011 3:35 am

    Horrible, horrible, horrible.

  3. Shez says:
    June 10th, 2011 3:37 am

    Very unfortunate incident. But I am little surprised at the quick post at ATP when it does not usually retort to quick conclusions. Shouldn’t have the editors taken more time and get more details?

    Here is a link to a complete video (more graphic)
    http://www.youtube.com/verify_age?next_url=http%3A//www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DHVUKqOgMYBE%26oref%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.youtube.com%252Fresults%253Fsearch_query%253Dranger%252Bkill%2526aq%253Df%26has_verified%3D1%26skipcontrinter%3D1

    As you can listen in on the conversation, the guy had a gun, which he claimed was fake though we don’t know if it was or not. And there were reports of robbers in the area.

    This in no way justifies the heinous crime but reflects a sad reality of Pakistani society. In Karachi especially, armed robberies and mobile snatching have become a part of life — an accepted evil. I know of many people who lost their lives when they hesitated — I am not using the word resisted — in giving up their cell phones and wallets. They were shot from point blank and multiple times. Including those who were the sole bread winners of a poor family. And majority of robbers are also poor. See the irony!

    It therefore comes as no shock to see some comments praising the action. When there is no rule of law in a country, there is a law of jungle.

    And mind you, rangers follow the law of jungle. Don’t we know that, especially Karachiites? They killed hundreds, probably thousands, of innocent people during the infamous operation of the 1990s. And they are involved in criminal activities, including drug trafficking. About time to kick them out of Karachi; nineteen years are more than enough for a suffering inflicted upon Karachiites souls.

  4. Taimur says:
    June 10th, 2011 3:41 am

    What does it mean to ‘speak up’. Everyone is speaking up, even politicians and media. What good will that do?

  5. Bushra says:
    June 10th, 2011 3:43 am

    I hope you are right Prof. Najam and that there are enough sane people. But sometimes I really wonder if you are the only one. You do seem like the only one who is still believing in Pakistan when it is becoming very difficult to do so.

  6. Yaqoob says:
    June 10th, 2011 3:45 am

    Just the list of the links you youself give in that first para should prove that we have, in fact, gone all mad.

  7. Asim says:
    June 10th, 2011 3:48 am

    I bet the same alleged robber would not have had any remorse robbing and perhaps even killing his victim!

  8. Rehan Farooqi says:
    June 10th, 2011 4:13 am

    Although the video is after the fold, please make the warning stronger. Strongly suggest not to watch the video.

    We need a much more emphasis and investment on training and education of the security personnel, especially those operating with civilians.

    It seems the shot towards the leg were not fired on order of some authority but by one of the overzealot idiot with the intention of immobilizing the boy. I do not think the intention was to kill. It takes only a minimal amount of understanding to know that injuries any of the major artery could kill a person in a matter of minutes.

    Also, it is evident that after one of the idiots fired the shot no one of them, not even the cameramen tried to save his life by administering any kind of basis first aid.

    This also shows very poor response training. Our country is under the protection of very very incompetent people.

  9. Junaid says:
    June 10th, 2011 5:19 am

    I watched the documentary “Taxi to the Dark Side” (available on YouTube) yesterday which presents the treatment of detainees in Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib, and Bagram and then today got to see this real life incident. We humans have a beast in ourselves which dominates us when we get into us vs. them mentally. The conflict and the possibility to get away without consequences for our actions make us do things which we would have never tolerated if we would have been on the other side.

    Is it just the action of these few individuals on the scene or is this linked to a mindset much deeper into higher ups of these individuals. What I expect that only these individuals on the scene might be punished at any level. I doubt it that any actions will be taken to avoid such incidents in the future.

  10. Moeed says:
    June 10th, 2011 7:29 am

    This is a tragic incident. It is about how the culture of guns can only lead to bad results. I think the guy killing was also not ‘cold blood but someone who in the pressure of the moment became trigger happy as that physical interaction happened. This is no excuse. Instead it is exactly about how those who are given guns have to be better trained. Notice the other ranger and his reaction as the shot happens. Does not seem it was planned, more like gross and horrible incompetence.

  11. Z says:
    June 10th, 2011 8:55 am

    Faiz said “Mit jayegee makhlooq tou insaaf karo gey ?”

    I am not sure Pakistani society follows any law not even law of jungle. What do you expect from children who were born and raised in that society? Very few human beings stop and think. Most are just sheeps. Did British do the similar atrocities?
    Indeed ‘a dream gone sour’

  12. Surp says:
    June 10th, 2011 9:11 am

    I am not sure why is everyone surprised at this? This is normal in pakistan. The only surprise is that they did not pump his body full of bullets.

  13. shiv says:
    June 10th, 2011 10:07 am

    SHAME! SHAME! SICK! SICK! SICK! What’s WRONG with us HUMAN BEINGS?
    I feel APPALLED and I won’t eat anything today!

  14. Anwer says:
    June 10th, 2011 12:20 pm

    بھاگتے ہوئے کتے نے دوسرے کتے سے کہا
    بھاگ ورنہ آدمی کی موت مارا جاَئے گا

  15. Adnan says:
    June 10th, 2011 12:34 pm

    He looked a lot like a guy who snatched my wallet in 2004 in Karachi. Am pretty sure, the same guy would not have hesitated to shoot someone resisting the robbery. Nonetheless, my Pakistani brothers, let the bashing begin.

  16. Kafir Per Pakistani Law says:
    June 10th, 2011 12:41 pm

    Prof Najam:
    We had gone made in 1974.
    Now victims in Pakistan are NOT only those who were declared Kafir (non-Muslim) by leader of current headof state of Pakistan i.e. PPP Chairman Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto.
    Dude, what goes around comes around.

    Personal Disclosure:
    I hold belief that:
    1-There is no God but Allah (SWT) and Muhammad (SAWS) WAS HIS LAST PROPHET.
    2-No new or old prophet can come after Rasul Allah SAWS.
    3-I consider all reciters of Kalima-Shahada as Muslims.
    4-I do NOT belong to Qadiani organization headed by their Khalifa residing in England, whose members hold belief that thousands of prophets can come after Rasul Allah SAWS (nauzubilah), but they will only come in their Qadiani organization.

  17. Khan says:
    June 10th, 2011 1:08 pm

    Shez has some observations and I find those appropriate and worth paying attention to.
    The only way towards disintegration is from within and so far it is on schedule. Our media with ‘blade in their hand’ would do it ahead of the schedule but people who believe it can be prevented stand in ‘their’ way. This media and ‘N’ League are trying to alienate people from Armed Forces and both owe their existance to Generals.
    Warning from a neighbour should wake them up. The whole world is talking of 2012 or 2015 …25 etc and ‘some one’ wants to reach that deadline through our own people and through certain political parties. Such emotional reactions and false or incomplete ‘edited’ reporting indicates that ‘they’ have penetrated these areas.

    I am totally foxed at Chief Justice Supreme Court’s reaction. He has stepped out of line and is trying to pose as some kind of peoples champion. His interference in the Executive affairs and then sleeping over them has become too frequent and needs to be addressed at the appropriate forum. His utterances deliberately made and publicised are not in line with the dignity of office he holds. He is NOT a political leader or is he? He should know that he got what he wanted but those who fought for him got nothing. He has not delivered what was promised.

  18. Shazia A says:
    June 10th, 2011 1:18 pm

    I agree with the title of this article/blog conversation on ATP…Have we gone mad? Yes, Prof Najam you have diagnosed the problem of a troubled nation suffering from what is known in Psychiatry as “Post Traumatic Stress Disorder” or PTSD for short.

    I have sympathy for the loss of an innocent life, documented and captured by a reporter and also for the 35,000 other non-documented and unrecorded ones. The only difference is this case is an eye-opener for our nation. A glimpse of what the other 35000 people went through.

    Take a moment and reflect….

    Let us not beat ourselves up, rather take a moment to find support in each other. Educate our masses, take help of our Psychiatry Physicians and we do have some of the best trained ones in Pakistan. Dr Mubasshir Hussain being one of them.

    So what are the signs and symptoms of PTSD?

    Symptoms of PTSD fall into three main categories:

    1. Repeated “reliving” of the event, which disturbs day-to-day activity
    * Flashback episodes, where the event seems to be happening again and again
    * Recurrent distressing memories of the event
    * Repeated dreams of the event
    * Physical reactions to situations that remind you of the traumatic event

    2. Avoidance
    * Emotional “numbing,” or feeling as though you don’t care about anything
    * Feelings of detachment
    * Inability to remember important aspects of the trauma
    * Lack of interest in normal activities
    * Less expression of moods
    * Staying away from places, people, or objects that remind you of the event
    * Sense of having no future

    3. Arousal
    * Difficulty concentrating
    * Exaggerated response to things that startle you
    * Excess awareness (hypervigilance)
    * Irritability or outbursts of anger
    * Sleeping difficulties

    Source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0001923/

    Notice the last few symptoms…EXAGGERATED RESPONSE TO THINGS THAT STARTLE YOU, HYPER VIGILANCE…Our rangers, policemen and military personnel have been traumatized to the extent that they have a sudden startle reflex to any suspicious person or act, with a fairly high index of a “trigger response”. The seemingly insane killings of the foreigner group of people and the unfortunate young gentleman, was a similar response by the Rangers.

    After all, our supermen are human too. The response is not insane, it is a symptom of a stress disorder.

    So what do we do?

    My recommendations would be:
    1. Recognize this problem of PTSD in the community and also the first line defense personnel.
    2. Get professional help from our country’s Psychiatrists in helping educate people about PTSD. Hold group therapy classes. Discuss individual experiences. Support someone in your surroundings who has been affected by PTSD and is showing signs of stress.
    3. Warn people through media to avoid unusual behavior or display of weapons or hostility to the defense force. Highly likely that they might shoot-to kill by instinct.
    4. Teach people to co-operate with security check areas and personnel. They are there to help us. Redevelop TRUST, which will take time.
    5. Simplify life styles. Find satisfaction in the small things in life.
    6. Spiritual help and healing. Pray and connect with religion at a personal level.
    7. Forgiveness…as a nation learn tolerance and forgiveness.

    Our media should not to take this as a personal attack, after the loss of the two lead journalists. We should take these miserable incidents, killing of our own people, as a natural course of the disease any nation in the world would suffer had they been through what Pakistan has gone through in the last 5 years.

    I have the credentials to make this diagnosis, being a physician. I also believe that this is a treatable disorder with a good prognosis. We should take this opportunity to educate our people and our youth towards a better, brighter and safer Pakistan.

  19. anwar says:
    June 10th, 2011 2:32 pm

    Ofcourse we have gone mad. It did not just happen. We let it happen over the years. We let the army carry out its bloody little operations in Dhaka and Karachi and now Waziristan. We created a monster and now we must tell it who is the master!
    It is high time for a political change!

  20. shahid says:
    June 10th, 2011 2:34 pm

    In a most civilized society police brutality is possible; though highly regrettable.
    The question is whether the incidence is far too much in Pakistan.
    Lastly there is a way out in the form of good compensation in the form of hefty blood money.

  21. shahid says:
    June 10th, 2011 2:40 pm

    The video is awesome and chilling.
    It is indeed a cold blooded murder in broad daylight.
    The killers certainly need to be prosecuted

  22. Omar Khan says:
    June 10th, 2011 3:03 pm

    No doubt, the ranger personnel who pulled the trigger, and those who stood around him watching, have committed a crime. But to me, the real criminals are those who have vested such powers on them.

    I have personally faced the barrel of the gun to my neck on many instances while traveling on the Indus highway south of Peshawar. I have been lucky each time. Many others have been shot and killed. Nobody has the courage to ask any questions because no media reported it LIVE. An incident 2 years back involved an FC personnel shooting at a car in Hayatabad, Peshawar. A 6 year old girl was injured and doctors had to amputate her leg. An FSc student was shot in the forehead in Dir next to a check-point when he was shouted at to stop but he could not hear them because of ear-phones.

    There are countless examples of this high-handedness and trigger happy armed forces who are told that they can get away with it in the name of security, and they do. After all, it only takes a split-second for a suicide bomber to explode himself, so the response time of the security personnel has to be faster than this.

    The real solution is not to make “an example” out of these rangers personnel. For the real solution, we have to agree upon the real problem. We have to go back and see where we have gone wrong, and correct it from there. The root of the evil starts with our policy in the war of terror, when it started 10 years ago. In these 10 years, the real initiator (USA) and the rest of the world have moved on. We haven’t. We won’t. We would have, if it were not for the billions of $$$ given to us for the wrong motives.

  23. Monano says:
    June 10th, 2011 4:15 pm

    We all know that no matter how enhanced the readership this blog has, the message it or Adil Najam tries to convey, can not reach the masses, very much like Sarfaraz Shah and the rangers who ordered to shoot and then actually shot them. Had Adil Najam and thousands of emigrants like him stayed in Pakistan and become agents of change by being within the society, the incidents like these would have significantly reduced.

    The migrants to western countries, who were actually brains of Pakistan. evaded their responsibility, and left the unfortunate nation to brainless and heartless. That is exactly why we are faced with such madness the professor is whining about.

  24. Yasir Hasan says:
    June 10th, 2011 6:22 pm

    I am not justifying the extra judicial killings, but the facts are that the person was not unarmed and was not innocent…as our beloved media is bragging so much about it…

    Can you answer these two questions….You can listen to the video as my observations are not based on the media or rangers/police reports, I have heard these two statements in the video….
    Q1 : In the video the guy said “Meray paas naqli gun hai”…
    So what the hell was he doing with the fake gun in public? Doing “innocent” things… A gun is a gun, if someone comes in front of you with a fake gun, will you ask him to confirm if it is real or fake?

    Q2: In the video the guy said “Mein Majboor tha”….
    Majboor for what? looting? What kind of needs a 19, 20 year guy can have which force him to rob people on fake gun spot?

    Let me take you to the other side of the world… see this video…
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PH7R5m-PTZ0

    Now, what do you say, should have been done with the fellow who killed the person in ATM???? A mad dog needs to be put to death, you don’t have to wait for him to bite and kill a person….the guy was caught by the police upon his neighbor information…Currently he is on bail (I read it in newspaper, but couldn’t find it on the Internet) and how long will it take to get the justice, you know the system….

  25. June 10th, 2011 6:27 pm

    This is HARAM, unacceptable, MUST NOT BE TOLERATED

    Even if he had raped my sister I have no right to shoot him – thats for the judicial system

    When in a nation every person holding a gun becomes judge and executioner that is the beginning of the end of that nation

    ASHAMED TO BE A PAKISTANI

  26. ali b says:
    June 10th, 2011 7:29 pm

    This is the most gruesome video I have ever seen in my life.A poor unarmed youth begging for mercy being shot by merciless gun tottering rangers who are supposed to uphold the law, shame on them.He should have been arrested if he had broken any law but the rangers had no right to act as judge and jury.They are scared chicken of the terrorists but they kill an unarmed youth not convicted by any court of law. All these bastards should be hanged forthwith as it is a open and shut case watched by millions across the globe.It has further tarnished the already poor image of Pakistan. It should be not let to die down with the passage of time and the people of Pakistan and the media should continue to play its part in this regard.

  27. wsd says:
    June 10th, 2011 7:55 pm

    So once again we have another incident to talk off and perhaps forget when something new happens. The very chief justice who got a “C” in our mos recent poll here on ATP has ordered removal of IGP Sindh and DG Rangers. But regrettably the elected leadership, ( incidentally all of them got a “D” in the poll) is busy in political point scoring and no solid strategy when our armed forces are in disarray. They have been criticizing the armed forces but not taking any action against any one………

    DO WE NEED NEW POLITICAL LEADERSHIP TO TACKLE THE PRESENT MESS????????

  28. ali says:
    June 10th, 2011 8:05 pm

    One of your readers has described that this murdered YOUTH looks like the one who snatched his wallet in 2004.This murdered youth could not have been more then 10 years old at that time.

  29. RASD says:
    June 10th, 2011 8:59 pm

    I cannot bring myself to watch this video…but I do not need to watch it to be horrified by the atrocity that has taken place. There is nothing that can be done or said that would make this seem the least bit okay.

    I do agree with the writer though. I have not lost hope in Pakistan and its peoples. We need to get our priorities straight and start protesting for the RIGHT reasons. There have been more protests over the deaths of OBL, and Kashmiri than of the innocents that have been slain and tortured. The sane people left in this country need to SPEAK UP !!

  30. Usman says:
    June 10th, 2011 9:04 pm

    @Adil: Unfortunately educated people like you are also fully responsible for such ills. Instead of educating people of all the harm caused by rogue naPak Army people like you decide to stay “neutral” until water starts flowing above your own head.

    Hats off the Asma Jehangir who is man enough to challenge these leeches openly.

    Your official song of this blog is “Ham Dekhein Gey” which is 100% opposed to what you have been doing throughout last so many years.

    Merely commenting like a spectator without educating people is making worst mockery of Faiz and his peom.

  31. Asim says:
    June 10th, 2011 9:45 pm

    Some of you making it sound like this only happens in Pakistan. Just let this be a lesson for thieves and thieves to be.
    For once in my life I witnessed justice done my Pak police…well in Paki styles that is. If the Pakistani courts had it their way, this guy would have been old by the time he could get a trial.

  32. Naan Haleem says:
    June 10th, 2011 10:58 pm

    Some asked what MAJBOORI he had to snatch a mobile? May be we can find the answer to this question in the administration of Umar ibn-e-Khattab (RA) who had suspended the punishment for stealing (cutting the right hand) during the time of acute draught in Madinah.

    Poverty, illiteracy, corruption (making life better for elite and hell for mediocre & poor), power shortage (diminishing economic growth and employment while increasing personal and family tensions due to lack of sleep) and, above all, a city in control of a mafia (making access to all types of weapons as easy as chocolate)…. A perfect recipe for rampant petty crimes like mobile snatching.

  33. SAM says:
    June 10th, 2011 11:25 pm

    What ever the story was behind this incident,whether the guy was a thief or a snatcher,whoever was he,there were no rights what so ever with anyone to kill someone brutally on the street.Rangers and police are for the security and not for the killing of people.all of these personnel who were being spotted in this video should be hanged to death.

  34. Justice done? says:
    June 10th, 2011 11:27 pm

    Why was he trying to hold the soldier’s gun? any clues?

    why isnt it that everyone is a mobile snatcher?

    Lets assume same had happened in USA. What would have police done? what would have army done?

    Why is this un-stoppable army bashing coming along? they have been handed over to police and investigation has started, now wait for the justice system to bear the fruit.

    Again, America and NATO have killed countless “youths” every day in Pakistan. Has media covered them? has Pakistaniat written about them daily? Has anyone even moved from their computer to check whether that “Youth” even tried to steal a mobile even once in a life time?

    Has anyone tried to figure out the income levels of that “youth” in the tribal areas?

    Lets be rational here. A tragedy has happened, its a mistake, a grave mistake, so let the judicial system play its role now.

  35. Muhammed Umer Farooq says:
    June 10th, 2011 11:41 pm

    Yeh jo dehshat gardi hai,
    Iss ke peche wardi hai!

  36. Monano says:
    June 11th, 2011 12:54 am

    Just received a masterpiece sms

    “BREAKING NEWS

    Rehman Malik k ghar beta peda hua hai…. Taliban ne zimmedari qubool kar li”

  37. Adnan says:
    June 11th, 2011 1:10 am

    ThankGod this time someone can’t blame TTP or Talibans to hide reality.

    @Monano: And Rehman Malik Replied,”Humay In kay Baray me Pahle se Khabar Thee” :-)

  38. Rasheed says:
    June 11th, 2011 1:18 am

    Please keep believing in Pakistan. Even thought this incident is HORRIBLE, SAD, SHAMEFUL for all fellow Pakistanis, such tragedies happen elsewhere, too. Non-violent ways are needed to educate peace. Violence does beget violece. Pakistan is going through a difficult trial. But the Quran reminds us to not give up during difficult times: Inna ma’al Usri Yusra. God willing, better times will come.

    A good beginning would be to punish the ranger(s) involved and their bosses and educating restraint to law enforcement personnel. I agree with those who are saying that robbers are callous people. But no matter how bad a person, executing him, letting him bleed to death just while he is begging his killers for help, has no place in civilized society.

    Unfortunately, it’s the nature of the beast. People do this in extreme anger and confusion. Some of the drone victims probably bleed to death, too. And, take a look at this sad video about sectarian violence in Indonesia, allegedly a result of government sponsored propaganda: It’s graphic parts are blanked out.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3b4b0eiYvU

  39. Meengla says:
    June 11th, 2011 1:41 am

    I am not going to watch the video. Call me a weak-kneed liberal if you wish. As you know, every ‘Bakra Eid’ I come here to protest the public killing of sacrificial goats.

    Anyway, the fake-gun and the ‘majboori’ parts of this event most probably point to the guy being not an innocent person roaming the streets.
    Should the Rangers have shot him like that then? Are the Rangers so threatened, so afraid for their own safety that they are becoming jittery and trigger-happy?
    During my last trip to Karachi (November 2009) I was told that the Rangers at various checkpoints have become extremely anxious and fearful because of the rampant suicide bombers targeting security agencies in Pakistan.
    This sad incident reminds me of what happened to the 5 women and children (Chechens?) killed by the security agencies a few weeks ago in Quetta.
    Most probably both of these incidents could not have happened had there been relative peace inside Pakistan. But, as of now, upward of 34,000 people, including security agencies, have been killed inside Pakistan because of the WOT.

  40. Sohail says:
    June 11th, 2011 5:25 am

    We are not even human being and we are worse than animals. Even animals has some rules and regulations for their lives but we are just worse than them.

    We are calling us Muslims but it actual we are not even human being. Islam teaches us peace and tolerance but what we are doing. What kind of Islam we are practicing and also where is the law and order of the country and where is that MF Rehman Malik. His job is just making money for him and the bigger MF Zardari.

    Man! these so called leaders (kanjars) have to work on these stuff and have to maintained the law and order otherwise they gonna be the part of the statistics and no one gonna even pray for them. WAKE UP ZALEEL HUKAMRANOOS

  41. readinglord says:
    June 11th, 2011 8:21 am

    He looks to be a hardened criminal and it is the best way the Rangers did in the prevailing circumstances to deal with such criminals.

  42. readinglord says:
    June 11th, 2011 8:58 am

    @Yasar Hasan

    Well said dear! Only robbers have the right in this society to rob the people. Even Ansar Barni is these days trying his best to pay off the rights of the Somalian Qazaaqs.

  43. Shez says:
    June 11th, 2011 1:56 pm

    Just watched a CNN news bit about the incident. The so-called best news organization in the world is so dumb, or acting like it, that they were calling the guy unarmed and innocent.

    As I’ve said in my earlier post, it was a heinous crime to kill that guy. But that does not mean that they should have let him go. A court trial would have been the best thing as anyone watching the video can find that the guy had a gun and had some “majboori.” We can’t believe his words that it was fake.

  44. Disturbed_nation says:
    June 11th, 2011 2:02 pm

    There were four or five of them ,Instead to shooting this unarmed boy they could have arrested him and handed to police .How could they shoot him like this and no one was even taking or showing any effort to take him to the hospital .This is such an inhuman behaviour.These rangers are worse than animals .Barbarians !!!

  45. Khan says:
    June 11th, 2011 5:30 pm

    We always tend to ignore or avoid looking at the other side of story. Have you considered what made this Ranger, who had no personal issue with the deceased, shoot at him? Did you know how many times he faces this situation in 24 hrs? If he himself is killed then he is just a number whereas criminals become heroes. This Ranger is always on his tows for others and for his own safety. He has seen his comrades killing or getting killed. He is not Harvard educated? He has no regular breaks remains in anklets and boots in spite of hot weather and carries a weapon he has been told to use where needed. He is expendable, a mean term for a human being. Yes he chose this profession. He did not wish to be a Patwari or a traffic cop or a purse/mobile snatching vagabond like the person he shot. And he did not intend to kill this man.
    Now our faulty reactions and our dubious media may make him a criminal too. No one seems to pay any attention to what our commentators Adnan,Meengla,readinglord and Shez are saying, because we have tasted blood in Gujranwala, Sialkot and Karachi too.
    HAVE WE GONE MAD?

  46. Hasbash says:
    June 11th, 2011 5:58 pm

    Looking at the some of the comments I think “we actually have gone mad!”

  47. Petrini says:
    June 12th, 2011 5:52 am

    You have indeed gone mad. And your madness is this: no matter how clear it is that an horrible act was committed by members of your own police/army forces, there will ALWAYS be people among you who will find excuses for them.

    Some of you here said one should “see the other side of the story”. What other side is there? The video is very clear: at least 6 armed and well built military men were surrounding a skinny youth. At the time of the shooting he is very clearly NOT ARMED (he was just dragged there, army guy hand in his hair and all). They could have easily subdued him, arrested him, taken him to court. There was absolutely no threat from the guy, so the western media reported things quite accurately: an unarmed and possibly innocent of any crime (until proven in court) young man was shot point blank and left there to bleed to death, while crying for help.

    This case shows clearly how deep your madness goes: it wasn’t American troops that could be blamed, it wasn’t taliban that could again be blamed on some third party of choice, it was your own people. So naturally, the blame had to go on the only person left: the victim.

  48. readinglord says:
    June 12th, 2011 6:12 am

    They kill the blasphemy-accused and people garland the murderer, why not then go mad for killing a robber caught red-handed. One has to go through the experience of being robbed and humiliated and then seek the support of law to realize that it was better to fight and kill or be killed instead of reporting the case to so called law-enforcing authorities and the courts. A robber being a blasphemer against humanity and an out-law does not deserve any sympathy or legal right. It is indeed criminal madness to have any sympathy for a robber caught red-handed.

  49. Mazhar Fakhar says:
    June 12th, 2011 10:58 am

    The boy might have been innocent, guilty, carrying a real gun, fake gun, or whatever. Looking at the full video (not the one posted above), you will see that before being shot, he tries repeatedly to touch the ranger’s gun (See this video: http://tinyurl.com/6do48x7). In any country, any law enforcement agency, if a suspect tries to touch an officer’s gun, the officers can shoot the suspect at their discretion, as touching an officer’s gun is seen as hostile action. Also, looking at the footage, one sees that the ranger first shot him in the leg, then took out his arm. This shows the kind of training that they have, keeping in mind suicide bombers. Taking out the hand means that they were trying to make sure that he does not blow himself up.

    I know many of you would argue… “but he was only a skinny boy with a fake gun,” or “he was a mobile snatcher and not a suicide bomber…” The thing is, we all know this in retrospect. How do we know that the Rangers in the video had the same information? So many incidents of suicide bombings have been happening all over Pakistan, including Karachi, that you cannot blame the law enforcement officers to be on the edge and highly suspicious of anybody trying to reach for their guns and making suspicious gestures.

    I am not condoning the killing; I am just saying that it is important to understand the full story and review all the facts, conditions, background, and circumstances of the issue before passing any judgment for either side of the issue. From what I have seen, the boy should have complied, not resisted the Rangers and should have surrendered instead of trying to touch their guns and making hostile gestures (e.g. charging towards the ranger, as seen in the full video). By acting this way, he provoked the Rangers into shooting him.

    However, what is apparent from the video is that the Rangers are not trained to handle the aftermath of such an operation. If they felt that the suspect was a threat and needed to be subdued by shooting, they should have immediately called for an ambulance after shooting, instead of leaving him there to bleed to death and registering a false case against him.

  50. Khan says:
    June 12th, 2011 1:05 pm

    Only someone from similar background could defend this “skinny boy” who was neither skinny nor a boy. According to this commentator, this was a “vived” video yet he does not see man from a boy?
    One ALWAYS finds some one defending criminals and this is no exception.But thankfully saner element will eventually prevail and the saner element includes persons like Yasir Hasan and others mentioned earlier.

  51. Shez says:
    June 12th, 2011 2:43 pm

    @Petrini

    Your comment is truly laughable. I am always amused by the judgments passed by Americans when they know nothing about the ground realities. You don’t know the local language so you can’t understand what is the back story to this incident. You have no idea of the crime rate of Karachi and rampant armed robberies. But you are quick to pass judgement. It is a common trait among you people.

    It would not even be mentioned in the media had a cop killed a guy in Harlem in NYC. And mind you, there were hundreds of such shootings during the troubled 1980s. With no media or public outcry. And we all know about the so-called fairness of Western media.

  52. Petrini says:
    June 13th, 2011 2:54 am

    @readinglord: “an out-law does not deserve any sympathy or legal right” –

    –you’ve said it beautifully! That underlines perfectly how far from being a state of law your country is, and how much that is the fault of citizens like yourself!

    @Mazhar Fakhar: “In any country, any law enforcement agency, if a suspect tries to touch an officer’s gun, the officers can shoot the suspect at their discretion”

    –I’m not an expert in law enforcement procedures around the world (like yourself) but in NORMAL countries the police is encouraged to act with respect for human life. What that means is that if the officer has the opportunity to immobilize the suspect without shooting him/her, the officer should not make use of the firearm. In this video we see how the guy is dragged by his hair. He was ALREADY in custody. He could have been cuffed or even just immobilized on the ground by two of the other officers way before he touched the gun. Why where the other officers just standing there and letting him touch the gun?

    @Khan: “Only someone from similar background could defend this “skinny boy” who was neither skinny nor a boy.”

    –You obviously need glasses. Review the video and compare the size of the victim to the size of the soldiers. Also, youth means young person; not the same thing as boy…

    “One ALWAYS finds some one defending criminals and this is no exception.”

    –Beautifully said, and the reason for that is that in a state of law even criminals deserve the right to a fair trial and to legal defense. Pakistan is obviously not a state of law, but a state of terror and repression, with the open support of people like yourself.

    Also, in a NORMAL country a person is innocent until proven guilty in court and vigilante justice is not tolerated. Pakistan is obviously not a normal country, since citizens would rather kill somebody in cold blood for mere conjecture, rather than put political pressure on politicians to reform the corrupt justice system. And then they feel very self-righteous about it (wink, wink).

    @Shez: “I am always amused by the judgments passed by Americans when they know nothing about the ground realities.”

    –I’m sure it was very hard for your to realize how unlikely it would be for an American with no connection to Pakistan to end up commenting on this blog, so your “quick judgement” is understandable.

    That set aside, I fail to see the logic of your post. So if something horrible happened in the US in the ’80s, then it’s ok to have it happen in Pakistan in 2011? From your tone I understand you disapprove of police brutality in the US, performed on citizens of a country that you obviously despise. You must hate your own citizens even more and worship your military, otherwise I cannot understand how you condone something in your own country that you find despicable in another country.

  53. ben says:
    June 13th, 2011 3:17 am

    It is always amazing that how there are always justifications….
    for brutality and street vigilantism, and UNNECESSARY use of force by the law enforcement agencies. There are people among us who will justify murder and rape when they perceive their values or selves being threatened.

    The whole notion of justice, humanity, and due diligence is at stake.

    What we are condoning is law of jungle and rule of fear. If I feel threatened by someone who i believe is a “criminal” then I can go ahead and kill him piece by piece, torture him or her in any way possible, throw him in an acid tank….and the list is as long as your sadistic imagination…..

    Then why complain about drone attacks? why complain about Guontamobay? Then if we can treat our criminals with no mercy…and if we agree that criminals have no place in a justice system….then why do we expect other powers to treat us with justice?

    Some people are saying….oh you have never been robbed….if u have been you will not defend this person……well then by this token…..if someone has been wronged they are entitled to use any amount of unnecessary force…..
    It is ironic these very people of street justice are the one who complain about what USA did after 9/11

    Law of jungle can only be supported by people who believe in might is right and who believe in oppression as long as they hold the rod and wear the boots to kick.

  54. Shez says:
    June 13th, 2011 3:38 am

    @Petrini

    I didn’t condone the incident for one moment. What I said that you don’t know the background story since you don’t know local language or conditions.

    The guy had a gun and he accepted that in the video. The person who handed him over to the cops also gave them the gun, wrapped in a hanky. And the accused said he was desperate and they should forgive him. And then he went ahead and touched their rifles.

    There are dozens of suicide attacks in Pakistan and many cops have lost their lives. True that they are incompetent and did commit a crime in shooting that guy but it does not appear as grave if a person who know things look at it. That’s what the courts are for to try and indict criminals.

  55. Mazhar Fakhar says:
    June 13th, 2011 4:16 am

    @ Petrini: “in NORMAL countries the police is encouraged to act with respect for human life. What that means is that if the officer has the opportunity to immobilize the suspect without shooting him/her, the officer should not make use of the firearm.”

    According to the South Asia Terrorism Portal (http://tinyurl.com/634cbce), 215 incidents of suicide attacks have occurred in Pakistan between July 2007 and July 2010 that killed 3,433 Pakistanis, most of them law enforcement officials. 215 suicide attacks. 215. That’s 1 suicide attack every 5 days. Do you really expect the law enforcement agents to wait and confirm if the suspect is going to blow himself up in front of them or to confirm whether he is a bomber or a mobile thief? The boy in the video clearly touched their guns and made hostile gestures (e.g. charging the soldier). How would you react if you were a Ranger in Karachi and you know that a suicide bomber explodes every 5 days in the country and a suspect acts suspiciously in front of you? Would you try to arrest the man or shoot him to save yourself from being blown up? How much respect for human life would you be willing to provide? Or would you also want to save your own ass?

    I am not condoning the killing here, just saying that you should not be so quick to pass judgment before understanding all the facts of the issue, including the background and circumstances of the situation.

  56. Petrini says:
    June 13th, 2011 5:35 am

    @Shez

    The guy DID NOT have a gun when he was shot, nor did he have a suicide belt! But you yourself know that, since your own post says that the person who brought him had already secured the gun. Your arguments would hold water if and only if the victim had not already been searched and disarmed, but at the point he is shot he was posing no more threat to 5 armed and well built military men than he would pose a threat to Mike Tyson. Do not embarrass yourself even more by spinning this into what it was obviously NOT: a real threat situation.

    @Mazhar Fakhar: “How would you react if you were a Ranger in Karachi and you know that a suicide bomber explodes every 5 days in the country and a suspect acts suspiciously in front of you?”

    –I would tell them to kneel down, put their hands on their head and not move. If they would proceed towards me I would shoot them. However, if I have ALREADY disarmed and searched the suspect, and have 4 others of my team surrounding him, while he begs to be let go, any use of firearm would be an gross abuse on my part.

    Your harping on the “all the facts and background” bullshit is an insult to any person with some moderate intelligence. They DID already have sufficient facts to make a decision – the fact that he was at that point disarmed and obviously no match for 5 soldiers. And this was OBVIOUS to all of them, since they had absolutely no qualms about congregating around him. What he may have had on him prior to that is completely irrelevant. Finding any sorts of justification for this is the same thing as finding justification for executing prisoners of war.

    So unless you’re prepared to say that he was suspected for being some sort of jedi warrior with psychic powers, about to mind-control the lot of them and make them shoot each other, there was absolutely no reason to make use of their firearms at that point.

    At least “readinglord” has the courage of standing by his own sick opinions: he wants death for blasphemers and for any outlaws, no more time wasted with stupid things like a proper trial and a proper defense allowed to any citizen of the country. And he’s not ashamed to say it openly.

    You two, however, still like to keep the pretense of civility and the appearance of moral, just, and decent human beings. Between him and you, I am more afraid of you. At least with him I know he is rabid. But you may fool people into believing you actually are hoping for some justice and sanity for the country, when you yourselves would not do any better if you had the power.

  57. ben says:
    June 13th, 2011 5:38 am

    All bad things in Pakistan have started happening after the start of suicide attacks. the times are to BLAME; otherwise we are very forgiving, just, and balanced people. we are just a bunch of nice folks :D

    maybe you fool foreigners with this story line but atrocities in Pakistan committed by those in power is nothing new specially by those who wear uniforms….maybe a quick tour of history is needed

    why even go to history….the game of gore and blood that our military has been playing with its people since last 20 years is out in open.

    what we see in this video is just a tip of a very ugly iceberg.

    But, yes everything in pakistan is because of suicide attacks…it is just a side effect.

    As is the sentencing of women to rape by jirgas a MINOR side effect of ptsd caused by security situation in Pakistan.

    Rampant corruption is also a recent development after drone attacks

    Likewise the lynching of two brothers in faislabad was also a side effect of suicide bombing….

    e thing is situational in pakistan. nothing is a personal or an individual responsibility

    we always have external factors to blame

    raw mossad taliban usa and now situations….its just that he times are bad

    maybe pakistan may sub pagal is liyain hain kai loadshedding ki wajah say garmi bohut hai…or yai garmi ser ko ja charhee haii (maybe everyone is getting crazy in paksitan, cz its very hot over here and temperature has melted our sane neurons in the brain)….brain damage

    I have not watched the video….but why was the victim left there to bleed to death….? cause there was still a doubt that he will pull out a bomb out of his injured groin? or maybe his blood had explosive powers?

    Jungle ka kanoon for junglees….where every atrocity can be justified…

    there are no universal principals that we uphold for everyone….

    the person in hand, the situation in hand, the color of the uniform, the language one speaks…….these considerations decide what is right and wrong……

    fear and paranoia is no justification for brutality by our armed forces.

    In our human history, many atrocities have been committed under the politics of fear…..but we choose to ignore this data

    if in fear we can’t be humans and hold ourselves accountable to some basic principles then there never will be peace.

    cause then someone will always find a way to convince us that we are in danger, should be afraid, and thus need oppression, boot in the ass, and jungle ka kanoon.

  58. Mazhar Fakhar says:
    June 13th, 2011 9:25 am

    @Petrini: “You… like to keep the pretense of civility and the appearance of moral, just, and decent human beings. Between him and you, I am more afraid of you. At least with him I know he is rabid. But you may fool people into believing you actually are hoping for some justice and sanity for the country, when you yourselves would not do any better if you had the power.”

    Hahahahah. You, sir, are a class act. How can you sit at your home and pass such a big judgment on me, when you don’t even know who I am?

    You wrote, “Your harping on the “all the facts and background” bullshit is an insult to any person with some moderate intelligence.”

    I urge you to come and live in Karachi for a few days and see what is actually going on here. Wander about in the streets and talk to the people, police officers, and rangers. Because right now, you DON’T have all the “facts and backgrounds” about this issue to make any educated guess as to what is really happening here. Please do not tell me about my personality when you don’t know who I am and what I have been through.

    You don’t know how inefficient our system is and how there is virtually no communication or understanding between law enforcement agencies. It is not like you see in 24, where every agency and officer is coordinated with each other. In the video, the boy was caught and searched by the local guard (who had no authority to officially arrest him) of the area where he was apprehended and then turned over to the Rangers. Nothing was communicated to the Rangers and they had no idea if he had been searched or what he had on him. They told him to get on the ground and surrender so that they could search and arrest him. The boy failed to comply, and instead reached out for their guns, and charged one of the soldiers. At this point, the suspect appeared extremely hostile to them.

    The Rangers should have all tackled him and pinned him down to arrest him, but given the circumstances, they probably panicked when the guy charged at them. This is why the man first shot him in the leg and then shot off his hand, which shows the training that these Rangers have in dealing with suicide bombers, as blowing their hand off means they won’t be able to trigger a detonator.

    The thing is, Mr. Petrini, that you have accused me of defending the Rangers and advocating this heinous act of shooting the guy. The truth is, if you read all my previous posts, I am merely trying to analyze the video and giving my explanation as to why the Rangers were compelled to shoot the boy, as I seriously do not believe that the Rangers would have shot the boy for fun, especially when there was a camera right there shooting them.

    Analyzing the video takes insight, which you can only get after you have lived here and you have picked up on catching and interpreting the various nuances of people and their actions. You have no idea how scared people are in Karachi, as various incidents of shootings, killings, and bombings occur without any warning and anyone can die at any time. Just yesterday, a 10-year old boy was shot dead when a stray bullet hit him.

    I am not sure why the Rangers decided to register a false case against the boy. Once they realize that the boy was not a real threat, perhaps they panicked, perhaps they thought they thought it easier to lie. As far as leaving the boy to bleed to death, once again, it show the inefficiency of our system. The Rangers should have called an ambulance, but our law enforcement agencies are so haphazard, that no such protocols exist. Even if they do, they are not properly followed and the Rangers probably are not even aware of them.

    But what about the camera man who kept shooting? Why could he not have called an ambulance or called for help? Why did he not stop shooting, drop his camera, and take the boy to the hospital himself? There are so many questions still left unanswered, and all we can do to make sense of this event is to analyze the data and evidence that we have and try to piece together what might have happened and why.

    All I am doing is giving an analysis of the video in trying to explain how the actions of the boy could have been the provocation that led the Rangers to shootI am doing this by drawing upon my experiences, knowledge, and insights after living in Karachi for over 32 years and experiencing many things first-hand.

    And all you are doing is sitting 3000 miles away, passing judgment on a name that you don’t even realize is a pun and claiming to comprehend, sympathize with, empathize with, and blame people that you clearly do not understand. So don’t say that you understand the Rangers, the boy and their actions, as you simply cannot because of your limited point of view, perception, and knowledge.

  59. Petrini says:
    June 13th, 2011 10:07 am

    “How can you sit at your home and pass such a big judgment on me, when you don’t even know who I am?”

    –It’s very easy. Any decent person out have been absolutely outraged about this murder. You weren’t. I really don’t need to know anything else about you.

    “You don’t know how inefficient our system is and how there is virtually no communication or understanding between law enforcement agencies.”

    –You seem to be very good at finding was to explain how a human life is suddenly not worth as much. I guess murders can just tell themselves that when they will be asked to account for their deeds, they will be able to say that they killed the man because the system was inefficient. I guess when times are really bad, people get a license to treat each other like animals.

    “The Rangers should have called an ambulance, but our law enforcement agencies are so haphazard, that no such protocols exist.”

    –So you need protocol to call an ambulance when a man is bleeding to death? Are you reading your own posts afterwards to see how ridiculous you sound? You persist in claiming the rangers thought he was a threat, despite not having one bit of a problem standing all around him. If they thought he had a bomb how come nobody searched him after he was shot? He was clearly still alive and able to press a button. On top of that you blame their actions and in-actions on lack of proper protocol? I had no idea you need protocol to be a decent human being. I guess that explains you and the others as well. You must also not have been taught proper protocol.

    “I am not sure why the Rangers decided to register a false case against the boy.”

    –Well, perhaps it was because even they, living in a country where they know the military gets away with almost anything, even they realized they went too far.

    “So don’t say that you understand the Rangers, the boy and their actions, as you simply cannot because of your limited point of view, perception, and knowledge.”

    –You are entirely correct! I never said I understood their actions. I cannot! Neither can I understand anybody who, after watching a man being shot point blank and left to bleed to death, comes and says: “you don’t really understand…”.

  60. Mazhar Fakhar says:
    June 13th, 2011 10:26 am

    @Petrini

    Yes. You really don’t understand. How can you say that I am not outraged, when I have not been able to sleep properly since I saw this video. Ever since I have seen the video, I have been thinking, “What if I was place of the boy? What would I have done to avoid getting shot?” In doing so, I have to keep telling myself what the “proper” way of behaving would be if I am ever confronted by Rangers. This is why I have to prepare my mind and keep telling myself “the Rangers are right, the Rangers are right,” because one wrong move in front of them, and bang, I am the one getting shot next.

    You cannot understand this rationalization process because you are sitting in the safety of your civilized country, commenting on something that is not part of your society, and you know that there is no chance that you will be in the same situation as the boy in the video. Unfortunately for me, I can be in this very same situation the next time I step out of my house. This is why I have to figure out what the boy did wrong, so as to not repeat the same mistakes and end up bleeding to death, this time with no one making a video of me or anyone ever finding out about it.

  61. Petrini says:
    June 13th, 2011 11:05 am

    “I have to prepare my mind and keep telling myself “the Rangers are right, the Rangers are right,”

    –WOW, you are incredible! You are every military dictator’s dream! With citizens like you, staging military coups should really be a piece of cake.

    Those rangers are human beings just like you, they are not perfect and the CAN be wrong, and WERE VERY WRONG in this particular case. But as long as you guys are only concerned with how not to piss off the trigger-happy soldier and don’t even bother to think about how to make your police/army more accountable to CIVILIANS (who, by the way, pay for their damn salaries), shit like this will continue to happen.

    “You cannot understand this rationalization process because you are sitting in the safety of your civilized country”

    –Yes, and for that I am grateful to the many people before me who fought so that we can have civil rights and liberties, a Constitution that upholds the right of every citizen to have a fair trial, and all that good stuff… Or perhaps you thought our societies were somehow miraculously endowed with all the liberties they now grant? Well, sorry to disappoint you, but it was a lot of work and in many respects there still is a lot of work to do even here. But it would have never happened if not for some men who, long ago, decided to stand up and say: the rangers are NOT right, the people in power are NOT right when they dispose of people’s lives as if they are cattle. This is NEVER right, regardless of circumstances! I’m really thankful they didn’t use your rationalization process.

    “This is why I have to figure out what the boy did wrong, so as to not repeat the same mistakes and end up bleeding to death, this time with no one making a video of me or anyone ever finding out about it.”

    I’m sure there must have been another sentence there were you said you all had to figure out what the rangers did wrong, and what you all need to do so that the rangers never repeat that mistake. I’m sure it got lost in the posting process somehow.

  62. Mazhar Fakhar says:
    June 13th, 2011 5:37 pm

    @Petrini

    Yes. Very easy for you to type all of this. I know your country’s history and how your ancestors barbarically massacred the Native Americans, brought in Africans as slaves by the shiploads, and how your elites had your citizens fight with each other, and are now making them fight in other countries. Anyhow, it is very easy for you to type all of this and tell me that I am wrong to try to preserve my own life. It would be interesting to see what you would actually do if you were in this situation, when your life was at stake and in danger every single minute of your life. Whether you would be a dog risking to get shot by taking a more active role in remedying the situation or be the sheep and save your own ass from being killed.

  63. ben says:
    June 13th, 2011 10:47 pm

    @ Mazhar

    it is true that a real time threats a real metal of a person

    But don’t you think you are painting a very pathetic picture of humanity by saying no one will stand up for justice if one’s own life is in threat?

    You mean there are not people who will take the bullet but will not side with brutality and justice.

    Also, be careful. when you remind others of their bloody history please take a minute and peep in your own collar.

    There is no nation on the face of this earth that can stand on a high pedestal and absolve itself of gross violations and atrocities against human kind.

    Yes in USA and west in general everything happens….yes you can argue their democarcy ends at their own doors….but you have to agree that by and large they are AT LEAST sincere with their own people. by and large they provide justice to people inside their own national boundaries.

    yes a cop might use undue force in USA. but then he cant escape the justice system. They might have equally bad people but they have STRONG institutions.

    Also, in my experience in west people stand up for values. If something is going wrong in usa there are always people who will say its wrong and raise voice against it. These people are more civilized then we are. If this video was abot some cop in USA. trust me by now he will be behind the bars. what happened in Pakistan? are these rangers under arrest?

    There is no law and order in Pakistan. people’s values are deteriorating everyday under the pretext that they are afraid and thus there should be no excuse if like weasles or vultures we feed on each others flesh. Only we can do something about it. blaming usa for its history will not fix our house.

  64. ben says:
    June 13th, 2011 10:48 pm

    *”real time threat tests the metal of a person”

  65. Petrini says:
    June 13th, 2011 11:02 pm

    @Mazhar Fakhar: “Anyhow, it is very easy for you to type all of this and tell me that I am wrong to try to preserve my own life. ”

    –Nobody said you are wrong to try to preserve your own life. That’s perfectly acceptable. Nobody is asking you personally to go and be a hero or something like that. But at least have the decency to call a murder a murder, and not find justifications for it. Just like you can call westerners out for their murders you should do with your own soldiers. Not to their face, not when your life is in danger, but at least here, o the forum, where you are safe. If you honestly think it was wrong.

  66. Meengla says:
    June 14th, 2011 12:18 am

    A lot of us are saying that there is another side of the debate which is being ignored by even most Pakistanis in their rush to bash all institutions of Pakistan.

    The current state of the security agencies inside Pakistan is that of their being the prime targets of suicide bombers who often send young boys and even women to kill security personnel. Security forces of Pakistan are also human being and are bound to snap sometimes after years for extremely high stress and danger. Whether in this particular case their action was justified or not will be decided by the judiciary. And indeed all six Rangers personnel are held under Police Remand and are being charged under Anti-Terrorism Courts of Pakistan; they are not going on unscathed.

    Again, try to understand the context.

    A sort of related example can be given of Rodney King beating by the LA Police in early 90s. Without a single suicide or terrorist attacks against them the LA Police saw it fit to beat the crap out of R. King started to resist. I think King was unarmed and was beaten by several people. And millions of Americans thought it was a deserved punishment.

  67. Mazhar Fakhar says:
    June 14th, 2011 3:57 am

    @Petrini

    I never said that the murder was right nor have I been trying to justify it. I have only been saying that the boy was at fault as well for touching the guns and charging at the soldiers. He could probably have saved his life if he had complied and surrendered instead of acting in a hostile manner. As they say in my country, it takes two hands to make a clap, or as they say in yours, it takes two to tango.

    @ben

    Please don’t lecture me about what I said about history; you are taking what I have said out of context. I was only replying to Petrini’s comment. Please read the previous posts before making your point. And as for me painting a pathetic picture. Tell me honestly: what are you doing to side against brutality and injustice other than sitting in your home, tapping away on your plastic keyboard? If you really want to side against it, why don’t you come out in the street and meet them face to face.

  68. ben says:
    June 14th, 2011 5:38 am

    lol
    @mazhar
    I have been reading all your comments. You are trying to ride on both boats with your ifs and buts.

    Yes, I am sitting in my home like you are and yes you dont know anything about me as I don’t.

    All we have is these views that we are sharing. I strongly believe that peopel like you and mengla who are aplogizing for this act and are giving examples of USA are wrong. Noone desrves this treatment and this is why as claimed by mengla those people are behind the bars.

    I differ with your view point and I have every reason to wonder that if even in a case when our life is not stake and we have nothing to lose, we cant call what is wrong is wrong without championing the “other side” argument…..then what can be expected of us when our own interests are at stake.

    there is always another side of the story and that other side does not need to be upheld….there is other side of rape, there is other side of murder, there is other side genocide, but those sides are wrong and sick.

    this debate would have ended if you were not lecturing others on your “depths” of street life knowledge in Karachi and your sole entitlement to have an opinion on the matter.

  69. Bangash says:
    June 14th, 2011 8:31 am

    I feel disgust for those who are falsely claiming that Sarfraz Shah (the victim) “charged at the soldiers” and was hostile. I cannot see anything like that on the video, what I see is a scared man pleading for his life, who then is shot and bleeds to death for 45 minutes.

    The fact that you have fools trying to find some way to blame the victim, and tying it in some bizarre fashion with LA/Rodney King, shows the psychological sickness in Pakistani society.

    I hope the Rangers who murdered this poor citizen of Pakistan are convicted and hanged.

  70. Petrini says:
    June 14th, 2011 8:48 am

    @Mazhar Fakhar: “I have only been saying that the boy was at fault as well for touching the guns and charging at the soldiers.”

    –Look, what I saw in the video is this: a young man is brought to some soldiers, he is first facing the police van. A man comes with an automatic rifle and shoves it in his face. The young man bows forward and pleads with the ranger. At some point he touches the gun and points it away from his head. All this time, the others don’t even bother to immobilize him. One guy shouts “shoot him, shoot him”, instead of arresting him. Before he gets shot he actually takes a few steps away from the soldier, still bowing forward, still pleading for his life. Yet, in spite of this, the soldier still shoots him, twice.

    What I saw was a very terrified and very light weight young man surrounded by 5 armed trained soldiers. It wasn’t the threat, it wasn’t the lack of training (you yourself point out their craftsmanship in shooting in the arm), it was simply that they didn’t give a damn about his life (which is plain obvious from the fact that they left him to bleed afterwards). And that’s NOT the young man’s fault. It is only fitting for their character that later they tried to say he died in a shootout. They themselves knew they were guilty.

    @Meengla: “Again, try to understand the context.

    A sort of related example can be given of Rodney King beating by the LA Police in early 90s.”

    –Well, hopefully this is your Rodney King moment. Hopefully all the men involved will be punished for what they did and other ranters/cops will be trained on how to avoid this. Hopefully this will never happen again. So far I’ve read several news pieces, including on this blog, which suggest that perpetrators or extra-judicial killings are hardly ever brought to justice. Maybe this incident will change things. Do you think it will?

  71. FS says:
    June 14th, 2011 11:27 am

    It is sad that some people here are justifying the shooting of this person, this was a life that was taken away, I wonder how they would feel if this had happened to their loved one. Even according to the Pakistan’s majority’s belief system if one is unable to stop any wrong they should at least condemn it. Once we start justifying these atrocities, more will follow. I have not seen the video but even if, and that is a big if, you can justify the shooting how do you account for the fact that these law enforcers did not have the humanity in them to try to save the victim’s life? The fact that they did not make any effort to get medical help tells you of their callous and inhuman attitude. No ground reality can justify that and one needs no training to make an attempt to save a human life, this should be an almost reflex action in normal human beings.

  72. readinglord says:
    June 15th, 2011 11:20 am

    Please see in this connection a letter appearing in the Daily Times of 14/1/11:

    “Terrorism in society and justice

    Sir: Acts of terror by the police and Rangers is not new in Pakistan. The only difference is that this time we are watching their brutality on the media and are therefore reacting. There is no doubt that the killing of an unarmed boy who was not even trying to retaliate is a shameful and barbaric act by the Sindh Rangers. To get to long-term solutions, we have to see this problem from different dimensions to try and understand why our forces indulge in extra-judicial killings. Security personnel are humans too but they have been fighting a war against terrorism for the past many years. They are frustrated and tired of the poor judicial system in Pakistan. If our security institutions arrest the culprits, the courts set them free; everyone knows that for the big fish there is no problem in buying a judge. Our judiciary is not independent. It is only independent for some specific media group in issuing licenses, and for a specific political party. The Supreme Court of Pakistan has set free many culprits from the Lal Masjid episode who afterwards became involved in terrorist activities. The Sindh government and interior ministry are screaming continuously that it arrests the culprits and the courts set them free. Therefore, the security institutions are responsible but the judicial system is a lot more responsible for this increase in terrorism. Justice and repairing the judicial processes will decrease the crime rate and barbarism as well.
    SYED FOAAD HASSAN
    Rawalpindi”

  73. readinglord says:
    June 15th, 2011 11:27 am

    Sorry, a correction! In the second line, please read the date 14/6/11 instead of 14/1/11.

  74. readinglord says:
    June 21st, 2011 2:16 pm

    @FS

    It is indeed sickening to see a human being killed like a mad-dog. But don’t you think the robbers, human-looking mad dogs should not be killed. Is it robbers’ right only to take the law into their own hands and subject their victims to suffer dual torture by them and the law, only because their torture is not hyped in the media?

  75. ben says:
    June 21st, 2011 11:54 pm

    it is amazing that how some people suck others in their useless circular arguments and will keep evading the real issue. I will call these people BUTNIF folks.

    you ask them: should a human being be killed like this?
    BUTNIF: No certainly not but he was a robber.

    you: But shouldn’r robbers be tried within a judicial system. dont you think extra judicial killings are wrong.
    BUTNIF: yes certainly justice must be upheld BUT our justice system is corrupt and under delivers.

    you: but dont you think we should fix the system rather than supporting extra judicial killings?
    BUTNIF: yes BUT in this age of terrorism how can u expect security forces to not over react

    you: Well watch the video this guy was not a threat, he was subdued
    BUTNIF: No BUT he touched the gun and was threat before being subdued

    you: well the armed forces should be trained to deal with these situations while ensuring they dont cross the lines into brutality and use of undue force.
    BUTNIF: but this happens in USA too. look at rodney king. we are under constant threat, this is US conspiracy, our justice system is corrupt and our armed forces are left with no option but to resort to violence. cause who ever is captured judges realse them. these robbers are not humans we should kill them.

    you: hmm so why armed forces, parliament, politicians, and civilians are putting pressure on judges to not be corrupt. Or is it possible the others are in the game too. Maybe someone from armed forces, parliament, politicians put pressure on judges to release them.
    BUTNIF: everyone is corrupt, robbers are mad, kill them kill them, long live taliban, everyone else in the world is our enemey, long live extra judicial killings and street vigilantee. i have to save my life “sniff sniff”. I have street knowledge of Karachi, sniff sniff, …i cldnt sleep all night….therefore i am supporting this murder. by the way it happens in usa too.

    see you can never argue with Mr./Ms. BUTNIF. they will just confuse you. in the end you are left wondering who is a bigger culprit they soldiers who fired the bullet or thesee cyber warriors who are here to defend this murder.

  76. readinglord says:
    June 25th, 2011 11:26 am

    @ben

    Thank you dear for your objective appraisal of the case. The mindset of the paky public has been so distorted by the media and the NGOs that they react overly to the killings hyped by the electronic media but show little concern for the victims of the crime, especially those subjected to robbery of a house-breaking type. One has to go through that experience to realize what the law and order means when the humans turn to beasts and your life, honour and every thing is at their mercy. The shock one gets haunts him all his life to shatter his very image of a human being who can pounce upon you any time without any reason. Human rights become a joke. Only the robbers and the pirates seem to have the right to loot, rob, rape and kill the people.

    Look at Ansar Burney who paid off the rights of Somalian pirates at the rate of half a million dollar per paky kidnapee out of the public money when the Indian navy got 5 pakies freed by an operation. God knows how much commission he got himself as a ‘dalaal’ (go-between) in this deal beside getting lot of publicity by high-profiling the case.

  77. Nihari says:
    June 26th, 2011 12:23 am

    @readinglord

    so agreed with you…the kidnapped Pakistani sailors should be allowed to be killed like dogs. Their own navy cant do anything whereas the guy who got them freed is a dallal and a commission agent. The Pakistani men freed by Indian Navy are rotting in Tahar jail (which they should do for the rest of their lives) and the Indian guys freed by that Indian agent Burney have flown back home. Here is a video by their baigarat family.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecXiE-pkMls&feature=player_embedded

  78. Aamir Ali says:
    June 26th, 2011 1:13 am

    readinglord has already convicted Safaraz Shah in his imaginary court so what use does he have of arguments and evidence ?

  79. arif says:
    July 7th, 2011 10:51 pm

    It is the injustice in the society which is taking its toll. LEAs are totally frustrated as the judiciary is so corrupt and lethargic. Once it fails to deliver the justice, LEAs have to do somthing to punish the criminals. CJP should resign himself instead of asking for the resignations of others.

    http://ihaveadream-pakistan.blogspot.com/2011/07/imran-khan-only-choice.html

  80. Sadia Jilani says:
    July 11th, 2011 12:34 am

    What happened in Karachi was horrible but if justice will remain non-existent, this will always happen. Going to a court is nightmare for ordinary people, which only provide safety to the criminals and miscreants. LEAs are frustrated with this system wherein the justice system fails to punish outlaws.
    http://ihaveadream-pakistan.blogspot.com/

  81. FARHAN says:
    July 16th, 2011 2:39 pm

    Injustice is only the “ROOT CAUSE” of all the violence and other things going wrong. The society where there is no law, becomes a jungle and in jungle savages happen.

  82. DeadPaki says:
    July 20th, 2011 6:23 am

    What is everyone griping about? Shape of things to come, have come….
    This is what we wanted; and we got it!

    Ladies and gentelment; load your AK47s, type56 and if you don’t not have any [assalt rifle or such] contact your local politician and avail facility…

    let the fun begin…

    Happy exploding… killing… [yes we can always come back to ATP and curse the system, Rangers, Army, Police, milkman etc.] it’s part of the fun.

    Pakistaniat at it’s hight.

    For my industrious brethren out there; the best place to put up an industry in Pakistan now is Bangladesh…

  83. christine says:
    July 22nd, 2011 4:00 am

    It is not just Pakistan it is the whole world.This” MY GOD IS BETTER THAN YOUR GOD”Is helping the violence right along.I am also afraid I do not expect these things to stop any time soon.And your country has outside forces egging the violence on and makes your lives that much harder.People are people and I hope the suffering stops soon.

  84. Zara Niaz says:
    July 25th, 2011 1:31 pm

    We need hope and not fear.

    http://thetopnewz.com/

  85. Justice! says:
    August 13th, 2011 1:33 am
  86. john quinn says:
    August 20th, 2011 8:00 am

    Pakistan is an open sewer of corruption.

    Few control the many unjustly for the money.

    Zealots reign and threatens the culture and lives of innocents not only in Pakistan but the world as well.

    Move to Antarctica an start anew.

    Good Luck

  87. iman ali says:
    August 28th, 2011 2:04 am

    Recent decision of the chief justice should be welcomed. I hope by this the decision like these cases will be decreased

  88. aamir says:
    September 6th, 2011 10:52 am

    Animals

  89. September 27th, 2011 3:04 am

    Good one…

    gpakistan.com

  90. October 16th, 2011 5:27 pm

    nice post !
    this is an eye opening post !

  91. Urdu Poet says:
    November 3rd, 2011 12:52 pm

    Ohhh dear… that really was a sad incident…

  92. December 19th, 2011 12:17 am

    really nice information

  93. Adnan says:
    December 23rd, 2011 12:58 am

    this is the only violent clip that i could not watch till the end..

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