Democracy in Action?

Posted on October 16, 2006
Filed Under >Adil Najam, Politics
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Adil Najam

The two videos attached below – one of a student speaking at a student convention presided over by Gen. Pervez Musharraf and the second of an MNA speaking in the National Assembly during the no-trust motion against Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz – have recently been floating around over email on Pakistani lists.

[Thanks to Eidee Man for alerting us to this new version of the first video which includes Gen. Musharraf's Response to the student's speech. Even if you have seen the student's speech already, the response is worth listening to.]


One could quibble with the style as well as the substance of each. There are elements of the political message in both that I, at least, do not subscribe to. Yet, each is worth watching because each raises timely and pertinent questions that we should think about; whether we agree with the content or not.

While the remarks from Muslim League (N) MNA Khawaja Asif is less surprising (especially since it came right after Nawab Akbar Bugti’s death and during a no-confidence motion) the speech from the student (Syed Adnan Kakakhel) is much more of a surprise. Gen. Musharraf listens intently, takes notes, and seems engaged. Indeed, as you can now see from his response (later in the video) the speech certainly got to Gen. Musharraf. He responds at length – including on the military rule and Balochistan issues.

I should also add that this event was organized by the government itself and also note that Adnan Kakakhel was awarded the second prize in the speech contest and also that this was telecast over Pakistan Television.

Whether you are a government opponent (i.e., this shows the depth of people’s frustration with the current order), a cynic (i.e., such talk is tolerated because everyone knows it will make no difference), or a government supporter (i.e., this proves that this government has given people real democracy and freedom of speech), you should celebrate these videos for what they are: a demonstration that political thought is alive and well in Pakistan (irrespective of whether you believe its content to be righteous or misguided).

Coming from the bol ke lab aazad hain tairay school of democracy, to me the space for dissent is itself important to the democratic polity; for that reason alone I beleive that these are important articulations.

115 Comments on “Democracy in Action?”

  1. October 16th, 2006 1:24 am

    By the way, I found it interesting that when I searched for the first video on YouTube, I found two versions. The content of each is exactly the same, but the title of one is “Musharraf Grilled at Convention Center” and of the second is “Musharraf Thrilled by Student.” Choose your politics and take your pick :-)

  2. Eidee Man says:
    October 16th, 2006 1:31 am

    Hi Adil, where’s my thanks? I pointed you guys toward this thing today. :D

  3. Eidee Man says:
    October 16th, 2006 1:33 am

    Alright, read your post more carefully this time. The url for the full video including Musharraf’s response is:

    http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=5546807296660038256&q=Musharraf

  4. October 16th, 2006 1:33 am

    Thanks Eidee Man. My bad. Yes, you did. Much appreciated.

    Thanks also to readers Khalid, Samdani and Naveed for their emails about these videos.

  5. BD says:
    October 16th, 2006 1:39 am

    Hey Adil, you need to say thanks to me too! x-(

  6. Eidee Man says:
    October 16th, 2006 1:46 am

    In other horribly embarrassing news for our country, it seems like Shoaib and Asif have failed a drug test and are on their way back from the Champions Trophy. Just when you thought they could not sink any lower.

  7. October 16th, 2006 1:51 am

    Ok, now I seem to have lost total control over my acknowledgements ;-)

    Yes, BD, you owe a special thanks because yours was one of the first emails I got on this. Thanks for that and apologies for forgetting it above.

    Eidee Man, a double special thanks for alerting me to this google.video version that has Gen. Musharraf’s response. Listening to it now and have edited the above slightly because of it. So, thanks again.

    My apologies to anyone I have forgotten to thank here ;-)

  8. Daktar says:
    October 16th, 2006 2:15 am

    Had seen the first one, but not Musharraf’s response. That was interesting. Am not convinced by his response but am impressed by the openness to engage in the discussion and to respond.

    By the way, Mush’s response is also relevant to the second video which I had not seen and which is even more interesting because it is in parliament (but the speech is too much rhetoric)

  9. PatExpat says:
    October 16th, 2006 3:07 am

    I saw the student video first at Metroblogging Karachi and reading the comments on that blog made me feel ashamed of being a Karachiite.

    Most of the comments revolved around the student ie., he is a stupid mullah, how can he raise those questions, what school of thought is Binoria Town etc. Nobody appreciated that the so called madrassah student asked in a forthright manner very pertinent questions and raised relevant issues and earned a second prize.

    I understand that its hard to accept criticism of government when one is pro-government, but to stoop to a level where we consider the questions based on the appearance of questioner and not based on the question itself, was shocking for me as I was not at all expecting this extremist attitude from educated enlightened moderates of Pakistan.

  10. TURAB says:
    October 16th, 2006 4:16 am

    patexpat, it was binori town’s masjid which violently attacked a procession being taken out by shias….. I have no respect for that school what so ever…

  11. bhitai says:
    October 16th, 2006 4:36 am

    ^Turab
    the binnori guys made peace with shias due to the efforts of Dr. kalb-e-sadiq from india in the late 90s. After some years of peace their main guys were killed in a spate of attacks. I wonder how they treat the juloos now, but I remember it had come to a point where they had actually started greeting the mourners outside their center, instead of pelting stones.
    You can write to Dr. Kalb-e-sadiq sahib if you want to confirm the story..

  12. October 16th, 2006 4:49 am

    Turan you appear no different those *mullahs* anyway. The only difference would be that u wear jeans and shirt and clean shave and they wud have beared, turban and shalwar Kameez

    Who cares you care something or not. I am sure you are not so credible to be noticed seriously for different issues of country etc.

    You guys dont look good to give lesson of tolerence to mullahs while you are one of them. Pakistan was damaged more by non-Mullahs than religious people.

    Preach your religion of ignorance to people who are compatibe of your mentality.

  13. October 16th, 2006 4:50 am

    About the video, i give full marks to both parties, to student for being so outspoken and to Mush to give chance the students to discuss so freely.

    May both parties bring harmony in our country-ameen

  14. Yahya says:
    October 16th, 2006 8:24 am

    [quote comment="4468"]About the video, i give full marks to both parties, to student for being so outspoken and to Mush to give chance the students to discuss so freely.

    May both parties bring harmony in our country-ameen[/quote]

    You mean too wrongs will make a right? Doubt that.

  15. PatExpat says:
    October 16th, 2006 8:33 am

    Yahya, two wrongs? I am curious. What is wrong with the student? Is it that he is a Mullah or is he outspoken? Would you have preferred more touchy-feely feel-good questions as posed to Mush on Daily Show.

    I like the title “Democracy in Action”; ironic when you consider that the president is wearing an army uniform.

  16. Samdani says:
    October 16th, 2006 9:41 am

    PatExpat, you missed the questionmark in the title. Purposely?

    Interesting – actually sad – how this has become about mullah-non-mullah. Why should that matter. You are as wrong to condemn a so-called ‘mullah’ just because you think he is a ‘mullah’ as you woudl be to condemn a so-called ‘liberal’ just because you consider them to be a ‘liberal’. In each case shouldn’t we focus instead of the message rather than teh message.

    By the way, I find the second video and its portion about Punjabis and Balochistan very interesting. Also the heckling between MNAs. Where is this guy an MNA from?

  17. sepoy says:
    October 16th, 2006 12:12 pm

    Thanks Adil. These are excellent. In fact, I would volunteer – with some help – to create a transcription of the two; for wider dissemination.
    Let me know if anyone can help out.

  18. Yahya says:
    October 16th, 2006 12:22 pm

    [quote comment="4483"]Thanks Adil. These are excellent. In fact, I would volunteer – with some help – to create a transcription of the two; for wider dissemination.
    Let me know if anyone can help out.[/quote]

    Why? What pearls of wisdom have you noticed? One thief/terrorist calling other thief/terrorist a thief/terrorist. How many times have we not seen this before? No wonder they are still there. They are able to fool us every time. Perhaps its our own low standard that makes little things look big to us.

  19. October 16th, 2006 1:01 pm

    Yahya: Thief/terrorist? How did you reach this conclusion? esp about the student? If his dress made you reach that conclusion, then I can only find that reaction pitiful. If you had more information than that, then please elaborate for the rest of us.

    I found the interaction to be frank and enocuraging. I cannot vouch for facts on either side, but civil discourse enables the general population to be better aware of decision making that goes on in the corridors of power. Whenever Gen. Musharraf has come out honestly, he has made a few friends. It is when the political mafiaso around him try to isolate him (in the name of political strategy) that he suffers terribly.

  20. MQ says:
    October 16th, 2006 1:07 pm

    [quote comment="4476"]“Where is this guy an MNA from?” [/quote]

    Samdani,

    Khawaja Asif, the MNA in the video, is from Sialkot. He is a Nawaz Sharif loyalist and was chairman of the Privatization Commission. Even though he acted as a bully on the block during Nawaz Sharif’s rule, two things must be said in his favor: He was among the first few people who were nabbed by NAB and was put through a wringer, but came out clean without making any deal with the government. Even the then Chairman of NAB apologized for arresting him wrongly. That says something about a politician in Pakistan. And second, he didn’t turn into a Lota like the bald character in the first video who used to sing Nawaz Sharif’s songs, even comparing him at one time to Harry Truman, and is now singing a different tune.

  21. Hassan says:
    October 17th, 2006 3:44 pm

    Good point Ali. I to was struck by how his early argument about this slogan showed an ignorance of history and a willingness to accept the ‘constructed’ history propagated by later rulers. This slogan may have been used in 1947 but the myth of its being central to Pakistan is a creation of the Zia years. More importantly, the students argument about the founding generation being better equipped to define teh meaning of Pakistan is (a) misplaced because each generation does and should have an equal right to do so and (b) could have been challenged on the grounds that the founding fathers did in fact have a much broader view of Pakistan than the religious parties who mostly opposed Pakistan.

    That said, I would not have expected Musharraf to take on either point. Both require a deeper intellectual engagement than he is used to employing and both could be politically difficult for him in a Pakistan this is still more “Zia’s Pakistan” than “Jinnah’s Pakistan”. Also, I think in teh second half of the speech the student had far more clear and strong points and those really are the defining thing here.

    I am surprised also that in the comments here no one has really commented much on Musharraf’s response to the students. That there is a response was good. That he took credit for allowing the response was in really bad taste and after that I think that much of what he said was canned stuff. Although it was interesting hearing first-hand his defense of the Balochistan operation. I did not find it convincing.

    P.S. To PatExpat’s comment. It is sad becasue I do NOT think we were or are incapable of reasoned and intellectually sound conversation. In fact, we have a great history of elegance in dialogue and a language that facilitates great conversation. Most Pakistanis I know (I do not know too many in the Middle East who may well have picked up other aggressive influences) are great conversationalists and are perfectly capable of engaging in dialogue where they can disagree without insulting others or getting emotionally worked up. So, no matter what your teachers in the ‘west’ told you, I am not ready to beleive that we Pakistanis are incapable of civil and engaging dialogue. I have too much personal experience of the contrary (including this blog, where the conversation is so much more engaging than many of the discussion boards which become shouting matches rather than discussions).

  22. October 16th, 2006 2:19 pm

    Can Mush give similar kind of freedom to Pakistanis to lead honourable life? if Not then this isn’t democracy.

  23. TURAB says:
    October 16th, 2006 2:42 pm

    To all those people, who think i m spreading hatred….

    I have my reservations about Binori Town Masjid and I do have the right to express them. I am not anti sunni, and the fact that I have more sunni friends should be proof enough… not that i need to. just to clearify there are no greetings but there is neither any violence now.

    Moreover, I respect all the Mullahs but cannot stand Mullahs with their double standards be it a Shia Mullah or Sunni Mullah….

    Fact of the matter is how many Mullahs have openly condemned suicide bombings even so if they took place in Israel which killed innocent defenseless civilians?

    The above mentioned fact is just one of the exmaples…

  24. Yahya says:
    October 16th, 2006 2:50 pm

    [quote comment="4486"]Yahya: Thief/terrorist? How did you reach this conclusion? esp about the student? If his dress made you reach that conclusion, then I can only find that reaction pitiful. If you had more information than that, then please elaborate for the rest of us.[/quote]

    Nothing too literal like that and neither anything to do with the person of that ‘student’ (I did not even think of him when I wrote – you give very little credit to others I see). I meant broadly the idealogy/acts/insituitions that they represent and again not in terms of only one or two dictators or madrassas. There is a long history of political/religious bigots who when no longer in power try to appear whiter than white after they have done everything they could otherwise in their time. (Jamia banoria is one example of that – I hope you are familiar with their history, not as peaceful and humane as this person appears). And what better way than to blame another (possibly criminal of sort) to take away attention from self. This keeps repeating in front of us, years after years, decade after decade.

    But in this case military and Mullah (represented by Musharraf and that person in my mind – again not literally in person) are putting another show in front of us and some of us have obviously fallen for it. Both of them represent bigotry, and neither is a friend of general public.

  25. farrukh says:
    October 16th, 2006 3:04 pm

    Dear ATP people, please save your page from being highjacked by these sectarian discussions and people trying to dump their ongoing fights on the rest of us.

  26. Bhindigosht says:
    October 16th, 2006 4:51 pm

    MQ, this same character who used to talk endlessly about Nawaz Sharif’ doctrine, and now plays the role of one of the chief darbaris of Mush, also compared himself to (God forbid!) Nelson Mandela. Why? because he was was placed under house arrest for 3 months or so after the fall of the Sharifs. Go figure.
    BTW, though I am personally not one for facial hair, shalwars above the thaknas and most madrassahs (Binori and non-Binori), I must say this student was articulate and spoke well. Now if only the so-called liberal types could string together an entire sentence in Urdu…….

  27. iFaqeer says:
    October 16th, 2006 6:11 pm

    I’d like to write something in detail about all this.

    But quickly, Bilal, give a Pakistani the benefit of the doubt, here, will ya? The name “Yahya” isn’t Boston Irish, ya know.

  28. MQ says:
    October 16th, 2006 6:20 pm

    Bhindigosht,

    I am sure you are talking about the bald character in the video and not the MNA speaking in the parliament.

    Mr. Kakakhel (the madrassa student) was good! Even though his Junaid-Jamshed looks turned me off in the beginning, but I was impressed the way he articulated his points. One could see Musharraf’s smile tightening whenever young Kakakhel drove a point home. But Musharraf, too, made a good point when he pointed out the contradiction between what Muslims say and what they do. I don’t know what was the occasion but he looked out of place in his uniform. I mean Musharraf, not Kakakhel.

  29. TURAB says:
    October 16th, 2006 6:45 pm

    To all the people at ATP, I want to apologise if I gave the wrong impression of starting a sectarian based arguement. That was not my intention at all.
    I had a reservation and I expressed it. Its that simple. In future I shall choose my words with more care. And I remain anchored with my opinion of keeping the state and the mosque seperate.

  30. falcon says:
    October 16th, 2006 9:18 pm

    Perhaps someone can volunteer to sub-title this video in english and post it back up on video sites as well as news aggregate sites. Unfortunately my Urdu is no where near good enough to translate the student’s speech.

    I don’t remember any American presidents inviting elequent opposition to speak against them in a televised event. Watching this video of Mush. reminds me of Benazir getting grilled by a young man on a TV talk show back in the day.

  31. Dr says:
    October 16th, 2006 9:25 pm

    hmm I have noticed many comments without hard facts, statistics or evidence. For e.g “thief/terrorist”. I must say that nations who do not respect & support their leaders not only give the world to reason to make fun of them but also fail to reach their goals. We (Pakistan) must takeoff our horse goggles and retune our radical and/or pessimistic thinking. I know things r not perfect but in order to become a first world country (someday) we must start thinking like one. We are growing beards but losing the true values of Islam. God is not that narrow-minded and God is also not limited to outfits only. Jeans or Shalwar Kamiz does not matter. We lie, bribe, ask for 4 male witnesses when our sister’s are raped and enjoy blowing non-Muslims & ourselves.

    Now about first video, I give credit to the government to broadcast such a demonstration of free speech on National TV. Even many western nations dont do that. We must appreciate that at least. The student also did a good job however I feel it lacked credibility and educated substance like facts, figures, dates, actions, solutions, future predictions, etc etc. but still not a bad job for a student who prepared for days to present.

    Now the second video. I must say, only thing missing was a female Punjabi women dancing and it could have qualified for a low budget lollywood film. The body language and tone clearly reflects extremism and secondly it is a shame to see how he used someone else’s death as a political play card. I HOPE people know better and I pray that Allah continue to give our nation “EDUCATED” and eventually civilian leaders.

  32. Daktar says:
    October 16th, 2006 9:58 pm

    I want to make two points concerning the discussion above.

    1. It is a sad reflection on all of us that we cannot see Mr. Kakakhel (the student) outside of his ‘mullah looks’. Others have said it before and let me repeat it, that points to an intolerance amongst us (yes, I said ‘us’) liberals. To judge people on their looks (whatever the looks may be) represents an intellectual bankruptcy, no matter which ‘looks’ you consider to be the appropriate one.

    2. At the same time I too cannot imagine such an occurance in ‘advanced’ democracies either. You think that the US President woudl allow such an unscripted volley on, say, Iraq? Certianly not in his presence like this. Let us, therefore, give credit where it is due. Same is true for the secodn video. No, it is not just political drama. I thought there was a lot of real anger and hurt in what he said. Making fun of his accent and style is not useful. Again, I am glad that such discussion can still take place in Parliament and it is not entirely a rubber stamp.

  33. Hassan says:
    October 17th, 2006 12:30 am

    In the video from the National Assembly, I am glad to see someone raise the issue of Bugti’s murder. Specially coming from a Punjabi. I think he got over emotional but it was good to see real issues raised. Woudl be nice to see the response from some of the government MNAs too.

  34. Hassan says:
    October 17th, 2006 2:02 am

    The good news is that whatever the minister might say, there is a willingness for dissent and debate in the country. In blogs like this, on the many TV channels, in newspapers, and (as we see in these videos) even in the halls of power, there are those willing to say what they feel and moreover even those in power are at least willing to engage in that conversation. Beyond making slogans and just criticisizing everything just becasue we do not like a particular sides view (this type of one-sided and blanket criticism only makes one look silly), I do think that this is a good sign in society. I do NOT think this openness to debate (as someone said, much more than in the US or UK or Europe even) is there becasue Musharraf GAVE it to us (he is wrong in taking credit for it). It is there because people are willing to speak out. However, he has not actively taken steps to stop it, and I am glad for that.

  35. Hassan says:
    October 17th, 2006 11:39 am

    You raise interesting point about how this may come across to non-Urdu speaker. In both the videos. I just saw part of them with sound off, and you know what in all three – student, Musharraf, MNA – the face and hand gestures are overly agressive and seems more like fighting than discussing. Maybe that is really true of how we talk and argue in general. Sad.

  36. BhindiGosht says:
    October 16th, 2006 11:31 pm

    Daktar, I agree with you about not judging people on appearances. However, I have to say that when a particular entity (for lack of a better word), which in this case is religion- usually embodied by the “Mullah look” and not much intellect – steps into the political arena, it becomes fair game. Till the day when the Mullahs start supporting human rights and stop hankering for a Caliphate (however bloody as per Dr. Israr Ahmed), the Mullah garb will stand for retrogressive thinking, and hence arouse judgements of an uncharitable nature.

  37. October 16th, 2006 11:57 pm

    same person kakakhel could be welcomed by same people if he had a sikh background. tsk tsk

  38. bhitai says:
    October 17th, 2006 1:42 am

    Khwaja Asif was GOOD. More articulate than your run-of-the-mill politician. Equally passionate and rational, and very much in command of the subject matter. The speaker (Chaudry amir) sounded like a bumpkin on the other hand – kinda like what Chaudry Shujaat sounds like.

    Thanks for sharing Adil sahib, unfortunately our peoplle have grown so apathetic these little sparks of ‘freedom’ fizzle out right after they are born.

  39. PatExpat says:
    October 17th, 2006 1:51 am

    So much for democracy in action. From Dawn Op-Ed
    http://dawn.com/2006/10/17/ed.htm#1

    [quote post="362"]Speaking to journalists at an iftar-dinner in Karachi on Sunday, Mr Mohammad Ali Durrani said that the government would not allow â€

  40. October 17th, 2006 3:29 am

    [quote post="362"]defenseless civilians?[/quote]
    @Turab:

    -in Israel guys & girls above 16 are part of military so most of them are NOT civilians anyway.

    -its your perception that you think mullahs favor such acts, did you interview any mullah recently?

    -i do not favor sucide bombing but when someone occupies your home,your wife, daughter and son and you are unarmed then you wouldn’t hesitate to put your life at risk to save your loved one or you will just sit on sofa and keep watchnig some late night MTV show?

  41. Maria says:
    October 17th, 2006 9:23 am

    Hello,
    I stumbled on this (first) video clip and unfortunately dont understand urdu, so i only understand the few english cues…
    I think many people would be interested in a translation or subtitles or a short summary.

    Concerning the judging on appearance: Musharraf wore a military uniform, the student had this mullah style. This tells us where they are coming from. This is not as important as what they say.

    I didn’t like the fingerpointing of the student (literally spoken, because I couldn’t understand him). In western Europe this is considered a rather aggressive gesture or gives the impression of lecturing someone or preaching. Is this kind of body language in Pakistan perceived differently?

    Lastly, you are probably right about Bush evading this kind of open discussions. But that is not true for american or european politicians in general.

    soupchef

  42. PatExpat says:
    October 17th, 2006 1:12 pm

    Hassan,

    Why is it sad? When I was studying in the west, it was taught in international oriented courses that different cultures have different styles.

    Having lived in a few countries both east and west, I have seen a few styles of communications. The middle eastern would stand very close to you such that a westerner might think he is violating personal space. Italians and Spanish have a very animated communication style.

    And Pakistanis brought up in Pakistan or Pakistani community in middle east are also known for emotionally charged communication style.

  43. Mush-nazir says:
    October 17th, 2006 5:39 pm

    Here is an idea for an Web Poll for ATP. What do people think is the likelihood of Benazir getting back and a Musharraf-Benazir alliance … cases against Benazir and Asif Z get dropped, Mush uniform stays, and we get one more alliance of the unscrupulous. Poor Nawaz sulks and wishes he could have gotten into the deal… which could have happened had it not been for the chaudhry…..

    any takers?

  44. Ali Naqvi says:
    October 17th, 2006 3:19 pm

    The very eloquent speaker from the Binori madrassah quoted the slogan ” Paksitan ka mutlab kya….La Ilaha Ilallah ! ” as being the founding credo for Pakistan. This was not challenged by General Musharaff when he went into his point by point rebuttal of the young student’s list of issues.
    Can anyone who has studied the history of the Partition educate us us to which of the founding fathers of Pakistan subscribed to this slogan ? …and what percentage of the population of Pakistan at the time of partition believed in this slogan ?

  45. Yahya says:
    October 17th, 2006 3:33 pm

    Answer to last sentence; None. This was needed by the mullahs who bitterly opposed the creation of Pakistan to get back in the saddle – so to speak. Funny the same mullahs who were no where to be seen in the Pakistan Movement – except in opposition – keep trying to tell us what is the meaning of Pakistan (Pakistan ka matalb kia…). Isn’t it time that those who were in favour of the movement define what Pakistan should be?

  46. Owais Mughal says:
    October 17th, 2006 3:35 pm

    I am not impressed at all by the second person’s speech. The MNA from Sialkot. His was more of a loud bash without much substance or reason. Reminded me of a person who talked very loud and judge favored him on the logic that since ‘the voice of truth has to be louder than the voice of a liar’ therefore the louder person is pious too.

  47. Yahya says:
    October 17th, 2006 4:07 pm

    [quote comment="4502"]
    BTW, though I am personally not one for facial hair, shalwars above the thaknas and most madrassahs (Binori and non-Binori), I must say this student was articulate and spoke well. Now if only the so-called liberal types could string together an entire sentence in Urdu…….[/quote]

    I am glad you missed Jinnah, you wouldn’t have liked his lack of eloquence in Urdu. Who knows, generals and mullahs may get rid for us the mistake (Pakistan) that, that liberal made and then we will no longer have to bear the burden of that liberal’s favour on our conscience.

    Shall we pray for that?

  48. TURAB says:
    October 17th, 2006 5:11 pm

    [quote comment="4528"][quote post="362"]defenseless civilians?[/quote]
    @Turab:

    -in Israel guys & girls above 16 are part of military so most of them are NOT civilians anyway.

    -its your perception that you think mullahs favor such acts, did you interview any mullah recently?

    -i do not favor sucide bombing but when someone occupies your home,your wife, daughter and son and you are unarmed then you wouldn’t hesitate to put your life at risk to save your loved one or you will just sit on sofa and keep watchnig some late night MTV show?[/quote]

    thank you for exposing yourself and your understanding of the religion. No matter how dire the circumstances are , the religion is meant to be for all occasions and esp for the worst of the times….. Under frustation if one forgets or chooses to ignore religion just exposes the lack of commitment and their weakness.

    Anyone not wearing a uniform and not carrying a weapon is a CIVILIAN.

    And hence that same suicide bombings are being carried out to kill in IRAQ, Afghanistan, and Pakistan. Suicide bombers don’t think about the collateral damage since they are too busy thinking about heaven and 72 virgins.

  49. PatExpat says:
    October 17th, 2006 6:13 pm

    Mush-Nazir,

    Things are moving in the direction that you have pointed. Now somebody should ask Musharraf what about all those promises that no deal will be made with looters. Why the charges against Benazir in Switzerland are not being pursued. Call me a cynic, but in the end, we all are after the seat “Kursi”.

  50. PatExpat says:
    October 17th, 2006 6:55 pm

    I dont know how many of us follow the numerous talk shows on Pakistani TV channels. It goes against our stereotypical images, but on these programs always the most cool headed and considerate speakers are the Mullahs of MMA. And the speakers from the liberal parties be it pro-government or anti-government or nationalists are usually arrogant, highly emotional and keep slinging mud at each other.

    Hassan, it was never my intention to imply that the Pakistani discussions are not intellectual. I meant that the communication style may not be like the west depending on where one grows up. Comparatively, in these regions its more animated and excited.

  51. Yahya says:
    October 17th, 2006 7:28 pm

    PatExpat, in this age Mullahs have got all they want. They can remain both in government and in opposition at the same time, can threat government any time and government reacts favourably to that, call for jihad against America while using American money and choppers for projects in nwfp and finally get deal from government via ISI in elections (quoted by Qazi Hussain Ahmad). Everything is going their way, why should they be agitated?

    The rest however are frustrated over various things and that shows.

  52. Yahya says:
    October 17th, 2006 7:35 pm

    I think this column by NAzir Naji has some interesting points; http://www.jang-group.com/jang/oct2006-daily/18-10-2006/col2.htm

  53. Roshan Malik says:
    October 17th, 2006 10:48 pm

    Regardless of Kakakhel’s affiliation with any institution or ideology, one needs to appreciate his courageous and well articulated point of view. I believe no member of the parliament had dared to challenge General Musharraf with decency and irony. We should be see what he is saying rather than, who is saying.

    Another important indicator was the appreciation of the audiance to Mr. Kakakhel because he was presenting THEIR point of view before the authority.

    No doubt Musharraf responded pretty well, but his remarks “this UNIFORM has PROVIDED you this OPPURTUNITY to openly criticize the government” are self explanatory that that the Uniform’s authority allows or disallows anyone ‘to speak or not to speak’.

    Ideologically speaking “freedom of expression” is the basic human right. Unfortunately, in our country, this right has been granted or denied by the person in Uniform.

    ‘HUM DEKHAIN GAY……..’

  54. October 18th, 2006 12:17 am

    One accept it or not. Jinnah and his guys used ISLAM as main tool to get Pakistan. The party name was Pakistan *MUSLIM* league, not Pakistan Democratic Alliance or India freedom Alliance.

    Running away from facts is miserable for you only, not for others. So be thankful of *Islam* which provide opportunity to you guys to throw shallow statments on Adil’s website.

  55. October 18th, 2006 12:20 am

    @Turab you failed to answer me. How would you react if your wife or sister is offended by outsiders in your home. Would you give them a hug and say ‘Well done guys, I am a civlised and I would appreciate your actions’ or would just attack back on them to take revenge of your loved ones?

  56. October 18th, 2006 12:25 am


    Anyone not wearing a uniform and not carrying a weapon is a CIVILIAN

    I wouldn’t like to argue you further upon this issue since you have no idea about Israel.

    According to your theory, MUsharraf shouldnt be considered an army man since he doesn’t wear uniform much *grin*

  57. October 18th, 2006 12:26 am

    did someone visited the following link?

    Pakistan Army beyond criticism

    How does mush define ‘Democracy’ ?

  58. Yahya says:
    October 18th, 2006 1:52 am

    [quote comment="4602"]One accept it or not. Jinnah and his guys used ISLAM as main tool to get Pakistan. The party name was Pakistan *MUSLIM* league, not Pakistan Democratic Alliance or India freedom Alliance.

    Running away from facts is miserable for you only, not for others. So be thankful of *Islam* which provide opportunity to you guys to throw shallow statments on Adil’s website.[/quote]

    Granted Jinnah did not cheat Muslims like the lying murderous religious parties but does it make him any less Muslim or less worthy of fighting for Muslim cause? If anything the so-called religious parties should be banned from using terms Islam/Muslim for giving nothing but pain to Muslims and bad name to Islam and Pakistan.

    What opportunity in the name of Islam are you talking about here? I live in a country where I have freedom to express myself without any fear of threats (veiled or not). I however see a lot of opportunity (regretfully for all of us) in the name of *Islam* to attack mosques and imam-baras in Pakistan.

  59. Yahya says:
    October 18th, 2006 2:00 am

    [quote comment="4595"]Regardless of Kakakhel’s affiliation with any institution or ideology, one needs to appreciate his courageous and well articulated point of view. I believe no member of the parliament had dared to challenge General Musharraf with decency and irony. We should be see what he is saying rather than, who is saying.
    [/quote]

    How do you judge the credibility of a person/entity if you don’t see who is saying? This is especially important when the organisations that they belong to have dubious pasts and naturally these organisation have a dire need to pull wool over everyone’s eyes.

  60. TURAB says:
    October 18th, 2006 2:33 am

    [quote comment="4603"]@Turab you failed to answer me. How would you react if your wife or sister is offended by outsiders in your home. Would you give them a hug and say ‘Well done guys, I am a civlised and I would appreciate your actions’ or would just attack back on them to take revenge of your loved ones?[/quote]

    Now you are getting personal my firend which was expected. However I do choose to answer your question. I would persue everything in my power legally and not go about randomly killing people who had nothing to do with the act.

    It is intersting how you seem to assume everyhting about me from my name , my knowledge , my understanding and my reaction. Kudos to you. However I won’t waste space on this comments section any more.

  61. Ahsan says:
    October 18th, 2006 2:44 am

    This post has attracted the highest number (59!) of responses. The so-called debate between Adnan and Musharraf is simply a FIXED match. The audience does not even realize that it has been cheated.

  62. October 18th, 2006 3:05 am

    [quote post="362"]Now you are getting personal my firend which was expected.[/quote]

    Might be but unless you experience yourself, you wouldnt realize the pain and you would keep preaching western theories to us.

    [quote post="362"]I would persue everything in my power legally[/quote]

    huh legally? you mean the guys occupied your home will let you to take any such action? maybe in dreamland?.

    [quote post="362"]killing people who had nothing to do with the act.[/quote]

    Already answered, the guys and girls above 16 are military people hence they are not civilians. Yes i already said that I dont favor killing of old men/women and kids but your biasness is meaningless that you are ignoring killing of thousands of palestinians in last 40/50 years.

  63. TURAB says:
    October 18th, 2006 3:10 am

    adnan sahib, how is the killing someone else instead of the murderer justified?

    You fail to see the whole picture.

  64. Yahya says:
    October 18th, 2006 7:15 am

    The need to find heroes is greater than the quality of the heroes. Disconnect the person from his organisation and the organisation from its doing and there is a ready made hero right there. And if the person has religious over tones so much the better. There is glory of Islam right there too. Never mind if the hands are dripping with the blood of hundreds of fellow Muslims. We don’t care of such small things.

    Why don’t we psycho analyse ourselves, find out and get over our complexes once and for all rather than continue to undersell ourselves every time. If we put any potential heroes through stricter criteria we will have a better investment and good service in return. We keep trying to clutch on straws, instead of placing our hopes in credible people and people with integrity. The result is we are left with straws in hand every time.

  65. Samdani says:
    October 18th, 2006 10:23 am

    [quote post="362"]How do you judge the credibility of a person/entity if you don’t see who is saying? This is especially important when the organisations that they belong to have dubious pasts and naturally these organisation have a dire need to pull wool over everyone’s eyes.[/quote]

    Dear Yahya, my own politics on this probably correlates very much with yours, but the problem with this argument is that it can backfire. Lets consider, for example, how the world views Pakistan. Most people view it as ‘dubious’ and having ‘a dire need to pull wool over everyones eyes’. To be honest, there are some (maybe many) Pakistanis who fit that bill. Yet, many of us are frustrated that the world treats ALL of us like that and we all become dubious because of the institution (country) we come from. So, if everyone were to only act on their stereotypes of others then we will only have dialogue of cardboard images. Which is what we have.

    On to this student. Why should he be judged only on the institution he comes from and not on the merit of what he says? Do we know if HE was in that attack? Do we know if HE encouraged or defended it? do we know if HE calls for violence. Maybe he does, but until we know that why not at least give him the benefit of the doubt… who knows, he may be the change agent within the institution? Even if he is not, can we not simply say that we agree with what HE is saying even though we do not agree with the accts of the institution he belongs to.

    Sorry for the long message, it seems to me that going by appearances can only be based on prejudices and that cannot be right. I do not agree with everything he says (some parts I disagree with vehemently), but I hope my decision is based on what he says and not on how he looks or where he is from.

  66. Ali Naqvi says:
    October 18th, 2006 10:51 am

    Would it be possible to have a poll on this ATP site and determine what the current mood is as to how many people today identify with the slogan that Mr. Kakakhel said was the foundation of Pakistan ie:
    ” Paksitan ka mutlab kya….La Ilaha Ilallah ! “

  67. Anees says:
    October 19th, 2006 6:45 pm

    Here is a question. Who put this video on the web, and why, and why not any of the others? Or is it all just a coincidence?

  68. Usman says:
    October 20th, 2006 6:33 pm

    Ali Naqvi, as a rhetorical device by benuria student uses the slogan ‘Pakistan ka matlab kiya’ very nicely. He knows it cannot be challenged and it essentially tries to make redundant the discussion on either Pakistan or even ‘La illaha …’ As if both are known quantities. They are, of course, not. The fact is that the religious leaders opposed Pakistan on a premise that Islam doe snot condone the idea of the state and instead the whole ummah is one. So a state that was made for MUSLIMS (as opposed to for Islam) in a certain geographic region was not worth supporting. Once Pakistan became reality they have worked mostly to turn it from a state of mostly MUSLIMS in to a state about ISLAM. Hence the ‘discovery’ of this slogan during the Zia era. I would ask people here who are older than the Zia era to think of when they first started hearing this line. It was in the Zia days when to legitimize his vision this slogan suddenly was seen everywhere, including on TV immediately after and before the 9 O’clock news. Now you have a whole generation who either does not know or has been made to forget that this slogan was neither that important in the politics of 1947 (was used a few times, but not a central slogan) nor really until Zia came along.

  69. AMIN says:
    October 19th, 2006 5:25 pm

    A few points to add.
    1. This first video is nearly a year old now.
    2. The speaker (Mr. Kakakhel) was awarded the second prize in this context.
    3. A number of other speakers also made pointed political references, including on the uniform issue.
    4. This is the only video that has been roaming because some people are more organized in spreading these than others. But there were many other very good speakers both favoring and opposing the government position.
    5. Overall this has to be a good sign if people are speaking so freely.

  70. Liberal says:
    October 20th, 2006 3:53 am

    Dear Adnan. One day I would love to meet one of these liberals you keep talking about. I have never met one who talked like what you assume liberals to talk like. Or is it just that you have an urge to abuse someone and vent needless anger that leads to these comments? Sometimes I wonder if maybe you are a hidden-liberal yourself and you write all these messages just to prove to the world just how very angry and spiteful these so-called ‘mullahs’ are.

    But you know what, I know too many ‘mullahs’ who are entirely polite and reasonable, who are not always angry and dont always make hurtful comments. May you be like them too one day. Ameen.

  71. October 19th, 2006 11:46 am

    Unfortuantely, the last few messages have gone far too off-topic and become way too personal to be appropriate for this forum any more. These have been removed. Would request all commentors to please respect ATP comment policy and also each other.

  72. October 19th, 2006 11:42 pm

    the particular binori student is actually getting popular because it was very shocking experience for the ignorant liberals of Pakistan who believe in theory that mullahs live in caves.

  73. MQ says:
    October 20th, 2006 6:26 am

    [quote comment="4635"]“… how many people today identify with the slogan that Mr. Kakakhel said was the foundation of Pakistan ie: Paksitan ka mutlab kya….La Ilaha Ilallah!” [/quote]

    Ali Naqvi,

    This was a meaningless slogan as most slogans are. They sound good but mean very little. It might have been used to rouse the people in public rallies like the “Roti, kapra aur makaan” was used in the 70s but it does not find a mention in any serious study of Paksitan movement. The founder of Pakistan never used it or mentioned it in any of his speeches. This and others ideas like these are all latter day inventions. Not the kalima itself but its political use.

    Come to think of it, Jinnah never even started any of his speeches by reciting “bismillah …”. Nor did Liaquat Ali Khan. Nor any of their immediate successors. That does not mean they were lesser Muslims. It only means they were not hypocrites like our “latter day saints”.

  74. October 21st, 2006 12:11 am

    @Liberal: why disguise? why are you hiding yourself?

    I am clear enough who are liberals ofr me.Some exist on this mighty website as well who condemn many Islamic stuff by preaching their theories like one produced by Bilal Zuberi who got irked due to fajar azaan and MastQalander who cameup with theory that God “Allah” was one of the God of pagans etc etc.

    [quote post="362"]Or is it just that you have an urge to abuse someone and vent needless anger that leads to these comments?[/quote]

    Abuse? its a plain blame over me. Where were you hiding when such *abuse* is thrown against Islamist.?

    [quote post="362"]Sometimes I wonder if maybe you are a hidden-liberal yourself [/quote]

    Definately i am not a mullah but I am not a liberal as well, please don’t curse and abuse me. I would rather like to be follower of some XYZ religion and stick its rules rather beliving in theories given by West or anyone else for my religion. I am in the middle, neither a religious zealot to send someone for some so called ‘Jihad’ neither i am a desi liberal who don’t mind to interpret Quran for their own while grabbing a wine glass in other hand. for me both cabals are unacceptable and are on extreeme.

    [quote post="362"]But you know what, I know too many ‘mullahs’ who are entirely polite and reasonable, who are not always angry and dont always make hurtful comments. May you be like them too one day. Ameen[/quote]

    if calling a spade a spade is not a polite way then I don’t mind at all. as you know you can always block me to comment on it but I wouldnt use someone else’ tone to express my words.

  75. Mast Qalandar says:
    October 21st, 2006 9:09 am

    [quote comment="4860"]” … and MastQalander who came up with theory that God “Allah” was one of the God of pagans etc etc.”[/quote]

    Adnan Siddiqi Sahib,

    I did not come up with a theory, I simply quoted a historical fact that the Arab pagans also believed in a high God, among so many other lesser gods, whom they called Allah. Did you ever ponder over the fact that the name of the father of the Prophet of Islam was Abdallah? And did you know that some of the Islamic rituals, like Hajj and the names of the months, are also pre-Islamic? When you find time, you might like to read an authentic history of that period.

    [quote]“if calling a spade a spade is not a polite way then I don’t mind at all.” [/quote]

    Well, Adnan Sahib, there is a difference between calling a spade a spade and calling it a goddamn shovel.

    Sincerely,
    MQ

  76. October 21st, 2006 9:25 pm

    [quote post="362"]I simply quoted a historical fact that the[/quote]

    [quote post="362"]you might like to read an authentic history of that period.[/quote]

    *grin*. Sure. Now would you like to tell that authentic source or even the “source” only?

    I would quote Quran here.


    Quran(53:19-23)
    -Have you then considered the Lat and the Uzza
    -And Manat, the third, the last?
    -What! for you the males and for Him the females!
    -This indeed is an unjust division!

    -These are nothing but names which ye have devised,- ye and your fathers,- for which Allah has sent down no authority (whatever). They follow nothing but conjecture and what their own souls desire!- Even though there has already come to them Guidance from their Lord!

    and regarding name of Allah


    To Allah belong the most beautiful names so call Him with them and leave those who deviate with regard to His names. They will be repaid that which they used to do.} [quran: 7: 180 ]

    and IN the light of this verse I was actually giving my opinion that why would I prefer to call Allah rather some other language name like kHuda, Elohim etc etc.

    [quote post="362"]are also pre-Islamic[/quote]

    Muhammad(Saw) was NOT the first muslim neither Islam came in this world after Muhammad’s Prophecy.

    [quote post="362"]Islamic rituals, like Hajj [/quote]

    Answered above. The first man who ever performed Tawaf around Ka’ba was none other than Adam[AS] after its construction. Same thing then was practised by Abraham(AS) and His sons.

    ————–

    Offcourse people who believe in that:

    -Exposing women is sign of freedom[PIA thread for reference and pathetic thing was that Women was getting agreed with it *sigh* ]

    -Allowing Alcohol in the name of minority protection.

    -Arguing about verse in which Quran allowed men for 4 marriages and one lady on a forum who visit and comment on this site as well had issues that why women were not allowed to keep 4 husbands and when someone told that it could create issue of authenticity of father of child(ren), she siad that DNA could be used for solving the issue. Somone tell tht *naive* woman tht when laws re written, they are written to keep everyone in mind rather individual. if some of defence resident violates RED light of signal by saying that he’s more educated than a lalukhait area person then such violations cancels the concept of laws. Does it not sound good that majority in Pakistan DO know name of their Dads unlike USA?

    are liberals copycats of West for me and I always dislike such loonies of my society.

  77. Mast Qalandar says:
    October 22nd, 2006 12:56 am

    One of my favorite quote is: “The mind of a bigot is like the pupil of an eye. The more light you shine on it the narrower it gets.”

  78. October 22nd, 2006 6:44 am

    [quote post="362"]of a bigot[/quote]

    Ah personal attack! Thanks to prove my point about Liberals that they don’t sound less ignorant than psuedo religious people. *grin*

    [quote post="362"]bigot[/quote]

    Dude, the day you learn and understand the Meaning of this word, you will start hating and cursing yourself so severely that you would forget to care what world thinks about you, till then bye. *grin*.

  79. Mast Qalandar says:
    October 22nd, 2006 11:07 am

    “Haq bahu, baishak bahu!”

  80. October 22nd, 2006 1:34 pm

    For those who are unaware or believe that syllabus of Madaris is backward and based on 100$% religious and Anti-Shia stuff,They should read this article printed in 21st October Jang . If this is all true then IMO, This is really a good and balanced Syllabus for a religious institute,specially when they teach logics ,books by Christians etc.

  81. Yahya says:
    October 22nd, 2006 1:44 pm

    I read the article the same day but it is just an attempt at whitewash in the light of current world climate post 9/11.

    If we see that people are being killed on sectarian grounds (not to mention other acts of terrorism) and people behind are associated with deenee madrassas then the proof lies in eating the pudding.

  82. October 22nd, 2006 2:54 pm

    @yahya: Preach where sun doesn’t shine.

  83. October 22nd, 2006 3:03 pm

    MQ: I had not paid enough attention to the fact that Prophet Mohammad’s father’s name was AbdAllah. Thanks for pointing that out.

    Regarding the rest of the back and forth in the comments: I am sure you would agree that banging your head against a wall is hardly a useful exercise.

  84. Yahya says:
    October 22nd, 2006 5:40 pm

    [quote comment="5048"]@yahya: Preach where sun doesn’t shine.[/quote]

    Where is this place Adnan? Did they teach you this at Madrassa? What else they did at places where sun doesn’t shine?

  85. October 22nd, 2006 9:04 pm

    [quote post="362"]Where is this place Adnan?[/quote]

    Your own heart.

    [quote post="362"]at Madrassa?[/quote]

    another sign of ignorance by liberals. For you people, anyone talks a bit in favor of Islam is associated with Madrassah. This thing is not different than the mentality of Americans or west when they consider every beared man a ‘Osama’.

  86. Mast Qalandar says:
    October 22nd, 2006 11:50 pm

    [quote comment="5049"]
    “… I am sure you would agree that banging your head against a wall is hardly a useful exercise.” [/quote]

    Bilal,

    You are so right. If one has to bang his/her head against the wall then, as Ghalib said:
    Tau phir aye sang-dil (or band-dil?) tera he sang-e-astaaN kiyooN ho?

  87. Adnan Ahmad says:
    October 23rd, 2006 10:20 am

    MQ and Bilal, I understand your agony and think that being selective in these threads would help. I can’t use a better analogy than that of the wall but talking of Ghalib, how about:

    yaarab ! wo na samjhe haiN na samjheNge meree baat
    de aur dil unko, jo na de mujhko zubaaN aur

  88. Fahd says:
    October 28th, 2006 3:08 pm

    heres a link of Kh. Asif’s speech on the annual budget back in June.

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1756388578265363312&q=khawaja asif

    im sure some of you who have criticized the speech above will find more meaning to it after viewing this one.

    i’d like to hear your comments.

    p.s. i don’t know if you have seen the third speech from the same person , regarding the steel mill issue, in cae you haven’t heres the link

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3489289286311870773&q=khawaja asif

  89. Yahya says:
    October 28th, 2006 5:22 pm

    Governments let such people off to attain some credibility. Public situation however does not improve even with such speeches. Talk is cheap indeed.

  90. PatExpat says:
    October 29th, 2006 2:38 am

    @Yahya: Agree with you totally. Musharraf has become an expert in media manipulation giving allusion to his loyalists of which there are many on this blog that there is complete freedom of press in Pakistan.

    From various sources cited on
    http://politicalpakistan.blogspot.com/2006/10/pakistan-hits-near-bottom-on-press.html

    [quote post="362"]Pakistan came at 157 out of 168 countries in Reporters Sans Frontières Worldwide Press Freedom Index for 2006.

    Pakistan remains attracted to control and censorship. Omnipresent military secret services continue to harass investigative journalists, while the Urdu-language press is closely watched.

    “There is a democratic environment in the country and that the press is free. We believe in the freedom of the press.” But then inadvertently Shaukat Aziz came closer to the truth by adding, “We give permission for criticism….” [Key word: permission]

    A former editor of The News Beena Sarwar has described the activities of these agencies:

    Among the tactics of intimidation used are phone taps, surveillance, threatening or interrogating phone calls, or visits from intelligence agency personnel.[/quote]

    And the thing we ended up discussing in this post was length of beard, binoria town etc

  91. Sajjad says:
    October 31st, 2006 4:18 am

    Hello all,

    For the benefit of those who don’t speak Urdu, I’ve translated the speech and posted it on my site here

    May do the Musharraf part some other time.

    Regards,
    Sajjad

  92. October 31st, 2006 11:19 am

    Thank you Sajjad, for translating the original speech of the student into English. A number of people had requested that. Readers, see Sajjad’s message above on how to get to the Engish translation.

  93. Yahya says:
    October 31st, 2006 7:25 pm

    Here is a good background on Mullah/Military affair over years by Nazir Naji; (http://www.jang-group.com/jang/nov2006-daily/01-11-2006/col2.htm)

  94. PatExpat says:
    November 1st, 2006 6:21 am

    Isn’t it ironic that the enlightened moderate educated elite are so blind with liberal agenda of Musharraf that they have taken to buying whatever Musharraf is selling them.

    As if the extra judicial killing of Bugti was not enough, we have a massacre in Bajaur agency and Musharraf telling us that all 80 of them were terrorists. Good riddance you might say as Musharraf would tell you the same.

    From Dawn today,
    [quote post="362"]
    some locals say the attack was carried out by US planes, and that the firing by some helicopters came later. The government’s military spokesman says that the missiles were fired by the army’s helicopter gunships, that the attack was aimed specifically at the madressah, which had been under watch, and that it was being used as a training camp for Al Qaeda terrorists. It is quite possible that the “American planesâ€

  95. Yahya says:
    November 1st, 2006 7:47 am

    PatExpat, everyone around that Madrassa said in their interviews that it is their duty to do Jihad and they will continue to do so(!).
    Now turn around the argument. If Afghanis were sending Jihadis to our country and killing people how long should we tolerate it?

    Despite what is happening in Afghanistan, we are not at war with either Afghanistan or US. In which case it is Pakistan’s responsibility to stop such activities. Also in response to Jihadis going across border, would you rather US only bombed a few madrassas or the whole nation?

  96. PatExpat says:
    November 1st, 2006 8:18 am

    [quote post="362"]would you rather US only bombed a few madrassas or the whole nation? [/quote]

    Other people’s lives are so cheap. Is anybody asking who was there in the Madrassahs as all except the government are mentioning that it were ordinary civillian casualties – mere students. Or do we want a public relations fiasco like last year where the first government denied US intrusion stating that a bomb went off in the hide out and when pieces of US missiles were found, meekly accepting it. Though its mentioned everywhere that Pakistan Air Force has been used to bomb Baluchistan, Mush can claim that the cave caved in over Bugti.

    US has always been good at bombing. Napalming the vietnamese. Allowing Israel to destroy lebanon and massacring civillians. Almost twice every week the newspapers mention that NATO forces have killed 30-100 “alleged” taliban in Afghanistan. Does anybody care who are they killing? At this rate, Taliban would have been finished by now.

    But freedom of press being lowest in the world as mentioned above, I am sure nobody is going to waste paper on them. For God’s sake, they were 80 lives.

  97. Yahya says:
    November 1st, 2006 8:33 am

    PatExpat, the matter is much serious. Do we want Pakistan to end up in a war with US? Much as Pakistanis don’t like what is happening in Afghanistan, they have no choice but to stay put. Press can say or not what they want but fact remains US is the stronger party here and dictates for most part what happens in this area, not to mention the rest of the world.

  98. Kamal I. says:
    November 5th, 2006 1:44 pm

    I am glad you have the question mark after the headline.

    The politician in the second picture, Kh Asif, was one of the people who stormed the supreme court in the Nawaz days.  He has no right now to talk about democracy after that.

  99. November 1st, 2006 9:15 pm

    1. There is no excuse for killing more than 80 Pakistanis of the tribal areas. The way the attack was conducted and the manner in which the government spokesmen justified it, raises lots of questions.
    There is enough evidence by the foreign and Pakistani journalists that there were children at the premises and that the air attack was more than from the Pakistani air force. Another fact comes to light is that just after few days a peace treaty was going to be signed with the tribal elders, same as that of Waziristan. Whoever did that desire to sabotage the peace treaty as well as the unity of Pakistan. The main problem with Musharraf is that for him Pakistanis are of no consequence, as long as his prolonged military rule continues unchallenged, with of course the foreign approval – as he lacks domestic legitimacy.
    The dictators of today are much cleverer than their predecessors as they have adjusted themselves to the new requirements. They allow a bit of free opinion (for the world community-thanks to the advancement of global communications) but when it comes to the “real stuffâ€

  100. Shaheen says:
    November 2nd, 2006 12:27 am

    Hasnat sahib, baat tou aap nay sahi ki hai. But I wonder why you chose to ignore the question mark in the headline in your last line. Just to score a point?

  101. Yahya says:
    November 1st, 2006 9:27 pm

    [quote comment="6508"]1. There is no excuse for killing more than 80 Pakistanis of the tribal areas. [/quote]

    So now that it has happened, what should we do in your opinion?

  102. Farrukh says:
    November 1st, 2006 10:08 pm

    Dear moderator, could you please request people not to cut and paste the same comment in multiple places multiple times.

  103. November 2nd, 2006 12:02 am

    @adilbhai: it would be good if you highlight sajjad’s english version on your main post under the heading of “UPDATE”. What do you say?

  104. November 2nd, 2006 12:05 am

    there are clear news of US involvement, Shukat Sultan indirectly admitted involvement of US intelligence. Second news are about pilot-less planes.

    Can Pakistan govt provide us[Pakistanis] evidences of armed training over there? I mean if they are true, can we all kind of emos,guns,missiles etc. the whole area is covered by military now. Can they show us? or they believe that we are like americans who believe in FOX news more than Bible?

  105. PatExpat says:
    November 2nd, 2006 12:26 am

    @Yahya: We can publish a sequel to the book at great expense to national exchequer entitled “Friendly fire: Baluchistan, Bajaur etc.”. The Urdu version can be entitled “Sub say pehlay Pakistan. Hissa-e-Doem (Part II)” a slogan which has been successful in justifying all Mushi’s adventures.

  106. PatExpat says:
    November 2nd, 2006 12:54 am

    While addressing the Earthquake victims was not the most appropriate moment to ask for voting for PML(Q) in the next elections, this one takes the cake.

    From Business Recorder
    [quote post="362"]2007 would be the most important milestone in Pakistan’s history and moderate forces must emerge victorious, which held the key to the country’s bright future.

    He made these remarks while addressing the officers from Sialkot and Gujranwala Garrisons after attending the inaugural session of the Corps War Game at the Gujranwala corps headquarters. He said obscurantists must not gain foothold in the country as there is no room for them in the country’s future.[/quote]

    Why doesn’t he just say “vote for Mush” because from his perspective, he is the only moderate and rest of the politicians would be obscurantists. At least “Roti, Kapra aur makan” was used to reach out to poor. His political campaign is targeted for highly educated or highly rich using words like “enlightened, moderates, obscurantists (Ironically the word itself is obscure *grin*)”

  107. November 2nd, 2006 6:09 am

    ah nazir naji,thanks for letting me know your feeding source :-)

  108. November 2nd, 2006 6:11 am

    I am just imagining mush after Bush in US. The upcoming election are not giving good news about Bush. See the current Time cover page.

  109. Yahya says:
    November 2nd, 2006 7:03 am

    [quote comment="6540"]@Yahya: We can publish a sequel to the book at great expense to national exchequer entitled “Friendly fire: Baluchistan, Bajaur etc.”. The Urdu version can be entitled “Sub say pehlay Pakistan. Hissa-e-Doem (Part II)” a slogan which has been successful in justifying all Mushi’s adventures.[/quote]

    I think “fauji jat” on the lines of “maula jat” is more inline with the theme than “sab say pehlay pakistan” but who am I to criticise General Pakistan.

  110. November 2nd, 2006 12:13 pm

    Yahya: We can record our protest in what ever capacity we can. Build up a pressure opinion, sending message to the concerned that the country belongs to all and not to a bunch of plunderers.

    Shaheen: This is a serious matter, provided we desire to exist as self respecting and sovereign people. There is no question of scoring points. It concerns us all – we are all affected by what is going on in Pakistan.

  111. Daktar says:
    March 11th, 2007 2:48 am

    Remember this video. Maybe we should.

  112. moazzam raza tabassam says:
    March 28th, 2007 3:21 am

    …..NOT DEMOCRACY BUT TALBAN IN ACTION…..
    Students of Local madrassa jamiah Hifsa of islamabad started talban style moment in capital day before yester day. On monday a group of Male and female students of madrassa Hifsa raded a Lady shamim house in G-6 sector and blamed her for unislamic bussiness and warrand her. this group also raded in abpara and warraned shop keeper for s selling music and movies cds and unislamic dresses. very next on tuseday these students again wemt to lady shamim,sealed house and brought her forcly in madrassa hifsa. these local madrassa talban also visited meloday and abpara markets and warrned shopkeeper for unislamic bussiness. the administration of Madrassa hifsa also set up a tele phone help line for unislamic bussiness complaints. the administration of Madrssa also annoced for lanching a FM station , named Voice of Allah o Akber. this all happening in area hardly 2 kilometer from president house in capital. IS THIS RESULT OF “HAQEEQI JUMHOORIAT”?

  113. Pakistani says:
    May 7th, 2007 10:59 am

    FICTION: (All characters are fictional in this coversation and author is nor responsible for any similarities which the real life)

    Shoki: Sir Ifti has made my life very difficult. He wants to investigate stock market crisis, has annulled the steel mill privatisation and as you know asking too many questions about missing persons
    Mushi: Well you are pm, do what you have to do within law…
    Shoki: sir, I understand we can gather some evidence on his misconduct and perhaps file a reference.
    Mushi: okay.. bring it on then and I will have a look.

    Few weeks later

    Shoki: sir.. here is evidence
    Mushi: it looks interesting… but is it enough.. is it admittable in court.
    Shoki: sir i have checked with lawyers… wz says the case is solid.
    Mushi: have u run it through pirzada
    Shoki: there is no need and it will create a lot of hue and cry.
    Mushi: okay… so summon ifti then

    Camp Office:
    Mushi: Ifti thank you for coming… I want to share something with you.. have a look
    Ifti: Sir… it is not correct.
    Mushi: well you can see the evidence… you have two hours to go through it…. you know the best course of action.

    two hours later:

    Mushi: so what have you decided?
    Ifti: Sir….i dont agree with it.. this is a smear campaign… none of it is true….
    Mushi: So you are saying the evidence is not correct.
    Ifti: Sir.. I am saying that a number of these things mentioned are part of my positions previlege. It is very normal and has been done in the past by others in my position.
    Mushi: .. i disagree I am referrring the matter to the council.. you can resign and this can end here.
    Ifti:… trembling…no way.. I will not resign
    Mushi:……. are you sure..
    Ifti:… still trembling but unbudging…no sir i cannot.

    Mushi….. okay.. you wait outside.
    … calls shoki and tells the situation.

    Shoki: sir no worries… we can get the acting sworn-in while ifti stays at your place.
    Mushi: are you sure its under the law.
    Shoki… ofcourse wz has confirmed it.
    Mushi: okay…. go ahead

    Shoki: Sir bd is outside… i propose making ji as acting as he can be groomed
    Mushi: okay then do it.
    Shoki: okay sir

    .. End of story….

    Tailpiece: what happened next is an open story and a legend which mother tell their sons and daughters… some say it happened many years ago in a distant country where people finally broke the web of big boots over their lives and destiny but most agree it is just a legend

  114. Saad says:
    May 7th, 2007 2:46 pm

    You forgot to add certain action sequences in the above chain of events.. e.g. ISI and MI chiefs sitting in the same room as the CJ of Pakistan to harass him and his driver getting thrashed by MI cadres.

  115. lubna says:
    June 23rd, 2007 9:11 am

    We all should realize that we are under the subjugation of our own army.
    It used to be our army but not any more and is acting as a foriegn army tookover our land

    1-soldiers are raping woman (dr shazia cas–the issue was hushed up as dr was not our citizen)

    2- They are capturing all civilian jobs and contracts.Look the way now they are planning to refurbish the school buildings

    3-They are doing intellegience of all citizens and govt employees as we all are thieves and traitors except those who are helping them

    4-Capturing all resources and lands from civilians. Baloch issue is the issue for land for army
    destroying all civilian institutions

    Foreign army might be doing more by some percentqge but atleast they would give something back to us.This army is not even protecting our borders as they are afraid from war–look what is happening on afghan border
    The sooner we realize the situation the more it would be better. We should support the civil society

    GOD bless this nation courage to dismntle this army and build an other one who knows the respect and will of their will

    God bless all of us-we all have to die but we have to leave something good for our generation

    Salute to CJ AND LAWYERS

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