Impeaching Gen. Musharraf? Is This For Real?

Posted on August 6, 2008
Filed Under >Adil Najam, ATP Poll, People, Politics
Total Views: 34396


Adil Najam

What lies in Gen. Musharraf's Future?Since yesterday the “I” word – impeachment – has begun to be thrown around a lot.

Some quarters seem to think that it just happen this time. Others suggest that it is more talk than action and the numbers needed to pull this are still not there.

Coming out of the “critical” Nawaz Sharif-Asif Zardari meetings one keeps wondering how much of this is an effort to keep the coalition going and how much is a real push to change the essential political equations of Pakistan. There are reports that Gen. Musharraf is taking this move seriously enough to cancel his trip to China (to attend the Olympics opening ceremony). On the other hand some of Gen. Musharraf’s supporters are claiming that no such cancellation has happened. We do know, however, that he is taking this challenge seriously and lining up his supporters.

All in all, there is too much noise to say what is happening. But something is clearly happening. Does the PPP-PML(N) have the numbers they need to go ahead? Does the President have the numbers he needs to stop it? And what of all the external actors and where they may lean, why and for what?

Interestingly, we had run a ATP Poll back in June asking you what you thought would have happened to Gen. Musharraf by October 2008? The majority (38%) had thought that he would be impeached by then. A significant number (31%) thought that by October 2008 we woudl be still muddling through as we are now.

We do not intend to open the Poll again, but it does seem that either of those two answers could turn out to be true again. Indeed, even our earlier Poll on the subject, from October 2007, may still be relevant in its results!

The Future of Pakistan's politics

So, since we can’t make full sense of exactly what all of this adds up to, we thought we woudl ask our best source: You. What do you think? What is happening? What might happen? And why?

153 Comments on “Impeaching Gen. Musharraf? Is This For Real?”

  1. Kalsoom says:
    August 6th, 2008 2:32 pm

    I’ve read that he did cancel it, but changed his mind and rescheduled it for the next day. May have been smart since the second round of meetings between Zardari and Nawaz happened today – he might be waiting to see what happens.

  2. Irkramullah says:
    August 6th, 2008 2:33 pm

    I am not sure how the numbers in the senate have changed, but maybe the PPP has more support from the middle now. But it does seem that this one is for real. At least this time I think they will really try this even if they do not succeed.

  3. Kalsoom says:
    August 6th, 2008 2:39 pm

    Actually this is what I read on the issue:

    Dawn cited PML-N leader Khawaja Asif who reportedly confirmed in an interview that

  4. Aamir Ali says:
    August 6th, 2008 2:39 pm

    After wasting four months on the judges issue without a resolution, now a new topi drama of “impeachment” begins. Meanwhile matters of state and issues of the people can remain in suspension.

  5. Irkramullah says:
    August 6th, 2008 2:42 pm

    I agree that the real issue to keep an eye on is the judges issue and whether this is just a way to move that out of public attention.

  6. Khurram Farooqui says:
    August 6th, 2008 2:54 pm

    I can see one of three possible results

    1) Musharraf is successfully impeached and goes away quietly (unlikely)
    2) Musharraf is “successfully” impeached but stays in power because the Army decides to step in
    3) There really aren’t enough votes OR Zardari is just homoring Nawaz Sharif.

    In any case, this seems like an exercise in futility when our real problem is the apparent lack of ability for this government to gather momentum and do something tangible about our real issues. The only reason (in my mind) to attempt to remove Musharraf would be if he was somehow preventing the government from making progress on gaining control over the ISI, or fighting the Taleban effectively, or taking steps to resolve the food/energy crisis.

  7. Dr Cocopal says:
    August 6th, 2008 3:07 pm

    Time is running very fast now a days. The life of any news is no more then few
    minutes.Mr president is going to China to attend the Olympics opening ceremony.
    He is confident and know that this bunch of….Doves …can not impeach him.
    P.S .NEWS one of our worker who is 60 year old heart patient has start reaching office by walk.6 Km one side.He no more afford Luxury of using roof of the bus.

  8. libertarian says:
    August 6th, 2008 3:28 pm

    What do you think? What is happening? What might happen? And why?

    Nawaz is woofing. He’s confirming what a moron he is.

    What is happening? What might happen? And why?
    If Zardari and Nawaz are foolish enough to attempt this, they’ll lose, the government’s finished, and Mush will be the boss again. The reason: the Army will never let one of its own go down this way.

    Noticed the sudden belligerence of the Army? Crap happening on the Durand Line and LoC? These are the Army’s age-old signals for manufacturing conflict. Nawaz and Zardari are committing hara-kiri by even talking of impeachment, if they’re not toast already.

  9. Aslam says:
    August 6th, 2008 4:13 pm

    Gen. Musharraf’s days are now numbered… if he is not impeached now, he will be removed some other way, but soon.

  10. Desi says:
    August 6th, 2008 4:35 pm

    Learn from what he did with the court decision of his election results. Called up emergency!
    So will he be impeached? No! Another emergency will be called and parliament will be dissolved. So thats the answer.

    On my personal note. He was doing good in the first 4 years as the president. Just look around now and the first 4 years he was president.

    So I would like to Mush to stay and keep all parties at bay.

  11. Syed Saquib Saeed says:
    August 6th, 2008 6:02 pm

    The population was against him even though everyone knew he would be replaced by Benazir/Zardari or Nawaz. Mush wasn’t an angel either but at least much better than the current rulers. I believe the country has always been in a state that it can only be managed by the army.
    The world economy is currently going through a serious recession. Everyone’s whining about the credit crunch in the UK and US. We can only imagine what it can do to the volatile environment in Pakistan specially with the current rulers.
    This would create a desperate situation for people (specially in urban areas) and with increased unemployment, I see more lawlessness in our streets and houses in the coming future. Do we all hear incidents of educated looking youth committing robberies in Karachi nearly everyday?
    And please don’t say ‘Pakistan has gone through worse and nothing ever happened. It will go through this as well’ like some of my elders do.
    Did anyone see the NATO strategic map of the region they use for training? Pakistan is shown with, NWFP part of Afghanistan, Baluchistan part of Iran and Azad Kashmir in India in the coming future.
    What do the politicians care. They know, it’s their last chance this time to fill their pockets with as much as they can. Then they can peacefully end up taking asylum in a foreign country with money in their pockets. The current rulers have already started setting up in posh areas of UK in the previous years.
    Development funds in Karachi (Which deserves it than any other city because of economic importance to Pakistan) have been stopped. They are desperately trying to finish off the left over projects. Anyways, I can go on and on.
    May Allah keep us United. Ameen.

  12. Stats guy says:
    August 6th, 2008 6:07 pm

    I am a stats type guy doing a lot of financial analysis so used to analyzing numbers.

    So when I look at the results an charts of the two surveys you have done on this above the one thing that strikes me is that we have now had more than a year of absolute chaos with no one knowing where things are going. And that has to hurt society as well as the economy.

    Frankly, I prefer Musharraf over either the PPP or PML. However, from just an analytical sense the cost of his staying is not so high because of the chaos being caused by his being there that I would rather see him leave so that all the negativity in society that comes from so many people being so against him goes. The economy will also benefit from that. Sometimes the second best solution is the best one. In this case I think the uncertainity will become less if he leaves and that itself will be good for Pakistan.

  13. JJ says:
    August 6th, 2008 7:29 pm

    Hallelujah !!!!!!!
    Hallelujah !!!!!!!

  14. Mohammad Vaz says:
    August 6th, 2008 7:39 pm

    Hi there,

    In fact one tends to side by a non-military government; but let us be frank in our approach and in the context of Pakistan (I am not a Pakistan but a very keen observer of the SA affairs) that the so-called non-military gov. of the PPP-PML (N) et al, has not been better than that of the Military one.

    The anti Musharraf agitation has become unfortunately more like a personal vendetta more for Mr. Sharif than of course Mr. Zardari.

    The coalition could have acted more wisely from the beginning on the people’s mandate and work with Musharraf while in the meantime clip Presidential powers.

    The unwise moves by especially PML (N) and in general the government, has caused a lot of damage to it and has created a far difficult problem for the country which is struggling with terrorism and financial problems among all.


  15. Usman Syed says:
    August 6th, 2008 7:51 pm

    I don’t think Musharraf is going anywhere. He has the backing of the army and the U.S. As long as the two ruling coalition parties cannot come to an agreement on the issues, this impeachment coup will also fail like the coup on the ISI.

  16. Ayaz Siddiqui says:
    August 6th, 2008 9:28 pm

    lol…Dream on…another day…another tamasha.. most of our politicians are either a B team of Martial Law or aspiring to be one..Let’s see who have the last laugh

  17. Abdul Hai says:
    August 6th, 2008 10:51 pm

    After watching and reading all this Tamasha for the last four months, one wonders if all the three (Dictator, Amir Ul Momineen, and Mr. 10 percent) are really intrested in the well being of the Pakistan and its people.

  18. Bhindigosht says:
    August 6th, 2008 11:09 pm

    First of all, I hope Mush goes. There needs to be one power center in the country. With Mush around, no one knew who the hell is calling the shots. The country needs to get over this psychological Mush barrier.

    Second, for all those who are always bemoaning PMLN and PPP, what solution do they have? another election? then what? Leaders do not fall from the sky. Yeh system chaley ga tau naye leaders paida hon ge.

    Third, it is an absolute joy to see the MQM leaders in a tizzy over the spectre of Mush’s impeachment. These guys really know how to have their cake and eat it too.

  19. Aamir Ali says:
    August 6th, 2008 11:48 pm


    Musharraf has no power today, his going will not resolve any power center problems. His leaving will also lead to the breakup of the coalition and back to eye-gouging politics of the 1990′s.

  20. mamoo says:
    August 7th, 2008 12:48 am

    I don’t really care if musharraf is staying or not, for me the people sitting in parliment are animals and there leaders are beasts. They don’t care about the ordinary folks. They are feudals, tribals and big industrialists and big business men. They are zalim. Their mentality is revenge and of hate. They are morally and ethically decadent. These people must be rooted out of society and get rid of permenantly. I am sorry I am writing this in anger but after what has happened to my friends family (mother, sister, father and brothers) i.e. been beaten up by tribal landowners, I have no respect for those sitting in parliment. Also the idiots in waziristan and swat must be eliminated. They are a disgrace to Islam. Actually our parlimentarians are a disgrace to islam as well. I damn care about democracy, there must be martial law and severe one indeed cause we haven’t seen what the real martial law is yet.

  21. jk says:
    August 7th, 2008 1:13 am

    Another stupid distraction from a brainless government that has no idea what to do.

  22. faisal says:
    August 7th, 2008 3:47 am

    Critical problems facing Pakistan today:
    1) Security & Safety.
    2) Economy.
    3) Unemployment.
    4) Health.
    5) Education.

    Solutions available:
    1) Impeach the President.
    2) Restore CI.

  23. mamoo says:
    August 7th, 2008 4:15 am

    The modern day mir jaffar mir sadiq=mian sharif mian zardari

  24. Hilal says:
    August 7th, 2008 4:17 am

    Critical problems facing Pakistan today:
    1) Security & Safety.
    2) Economy.
    3) Unemployment.
    4) Health.
    5) Education.

    Solutions available:
    1) get rid of MULLAH
    2) get rid of SARMAYADAR
    3) get rid of JAGIRDAR

    Of course things don’t change from one day to the next but my point is if ANYONE or ANY MOVEMENT or ANY ORGANIZATION or ANY PARTY sharing any of these (MULLAH, SARMAYADAR and JAGIRDAR), at any level or degree forget about any change and any good!!!

  25. mamoo says:
    August 7th, 2008 4:58 am

    why did Nawaz Sharif choose to go to america and bow down to clinton in the Kargil war? Was it because he wanted to protect his riches (i.e. suger mills, raiwand estate, model town house, industries etc) if incase war broke out on the borders? Where is the audit for the qarz utaro mulk sawaroon scheme? Where is that money? Why was rehmat shah afridi jailed and who else is involved apart from the sharifs and the anf high ups which he mentions? After nuclear tests and before the freezing of foreign currency accounts why did nawaz sharifs close relatives allowed to withdraw over 200 million dollars? All those land allotments he and his cronnies like ishaq dar and ahsan iqbal have made to close friends and relatives. What about this? The second richest person in Pakistan who hardly pays any taxes. What the hell is this? And these slimy, corrupt persons will impeach the president. Nawaz sharif and his croniess including zardari and his friends must be get rid of. They must put in jail forever.

  26. Wasiq says:
    August 7th, 2008 5:14 am

    Pakistan as a state means nothing to me. Its only purpose is to provide stability and order that would allow Pakistanis to achieve their fullest economic, social, and cultural potential. Clearly the state of Pakistan has ceased to be a positive force in people’s lives for some time (I say this knowing that a stateless chaos would be far worse). In the end, the best outcome would be for a gradual transition in which Pakistan disappeared and a new state or series of state’s emerged that could better serve the needs of 170 million people. If that means dividing Pakistan between India, Iran, Afghanistan, and a Punjabi nation, then I’m all for such a solution. Things happen slowly. Remember that the Mughals began a serious decline 400 years before they finally disappeared. I am not optimistic about our democratically elected leadership and, despite his essentially positive contribution to Pakistan, a military dictator such as Musharraf always involves the problem of succession. Democracies provide for a succession procedure, but this hasn’t worked in Pakistan and so we ought to brace ourselves for the eventual passing of this state with what one hopes is minimal bloodshed and that this death happens quickly.

  27. Tariq says:
    August 7th, 2008 5:48 am

    “Democracies provide for a succession procedure, but this hasn

  28. TS Kham says:
    August 7th, 2008 5:49 am

    @ Adil Najam
    “We do know, however, that he is taking this challenge seriously and lining up his supporters.”
    “Does the President have the numbers he needs to stop it? ”

    That the statements are suggestive can be gauged by anyone who would like to look at them a bit critically.

    You are doing a great job as a Musharraf apologist. And you think you are doing it with subtlety. Was just wodering if pseudo intellectuals like you would have mercy on the poor Pakistani nation and leave it alone….

  29. mamoo says:
    August 7th, 2008 6:54 am

    And we talk about lawyers. Un ka to qibla hee durust naheen. rally pay rally nikaal tay rahatay hain magar jub azaan ho tee hay to namaz kee koee fiqar naheen (there leaders don’t even bother to pray when the call for prayer is called). Aur maulvi diesel jin ko kaha jata hay (invovled in smuggling diesel). or yeeh Qazi sahab jin kay doostoon kay gharoon say qatil giriftar hotay hain (Suicide bombers have been arrested from there friends houses). Go to NWFP and ask what akram khan durrani was like. They call him a thief and a murderer. And Imran khan who is known as a playboy maulvi.

  30. Feisal Khan says:
    August 7th, 2008 7:04 am

    I think Musharraf leaving/being-impeached would be bad for Pakistan. Bad as he is, Zardari and Sharif are worse. I agree with mamoo and jk and others about this.

  31. mamoo says:
    August 7th, 2008 7:31 am

    Our Hypocrisy is that when musharraf came to power, we celebrated the overthrow of Nawaz Sharif. Sweets were distributed. So why go back into a persons arms again who we despised because of his corruption (bhuttos, zardari and sharifs including there friends). It has been rightly said by someone that a dictorship is better than chaos. And it is chaos now and nothing else in Pakistan. This is what happened in Iraq when people chose to go against Saddam. What now over there no peace, every day many killed and maimed. We are heading the same way unfortunately. We donot want to change our state so how the hell can we change the state of our nation.

  32. mamoo says:
    August 7th, 2008 7:36 am

    Don’t care really what happens to musharraf but animosity of Nawaz sharif and others is because musharraf is urdu speaking and that is it. Go listen to khwaja asif’s statements. I am no MQM but that is the truth cause altaf husain is just like any other politician in Pakistan. Nawaz sharif and allies cannot digest the fact that an urdu speaking guy is at the top.

  33. Ahmad R. Shahid says:
    August 7th, 2008 8:10 am

    Musharraf should not only be impeached but tried and punished for all the crimes he and his hand-picked cronies committed. He should go through all that he has made the people suffer for. His near and dear ones should be made missing; his assets seized by NAB; he sent to Guantanamo Bay without any charges against him and tortured there for what he didn’t do; pushed into a mosque with chemical weapons used from outside; left in the heat and tortured by police and so on and so forth.

  34. faisal says:
    August 7th, 2008 8:13 am

    As long as Punjab can vote for someone like Nawaz Sharif and that too in such huge numbers things will remain depressing and desperate.

  35. D says:
    August 7th, 2008 8:20 am

    All the politicians are animals, If they want to impeach Musharaf and put him on trial then what about the crooks who are trying to impeach him. All of them are just scum bags, they don’t care about Pakistan or Pakistanis. All they care about is Power because with that come $$ that’s the bottom line. All this about the awam and justice, what the hell were they doing for the last 9 years.

    You don’t need to be in power to do something good, have they done any wellfare work, NO they have lived it up, at the expense of this Poor country.

    And about Musharaf, when they do try him please add the following to the list of crimes as well. Why did he not put AZ ,NS, Altaf and the rest of these clowns away for good?

  36. D says:
    August 7th, 2008 8:31 am

    And we can blame the army as well, but the real blame is still with the politians.

    These so called politicians have been given a golden oppurtunity to do some good, some thing to make Pakistan move in the right direction, and what are they doing? messing things up further, and making life more miserable. It’s because they are not a force for good. That includes the clowns of the last government as well. And all those who are sitting on the fence that includes Mr Ahsan as well. They need to stand up for all that is wrong and speak against there own party.

    And nothing will change until we as a nation don’t change. Our leaders are a reflection of us as a society because they are from amongst us. We all need to do our own accountability first, only then will things change. We need to start doing some good rather than sit on our backsides and criticise. That includes me.

  37. Ahmad R. Shahid says:
    August 7th, 2008 8:36 am

    Chemical weapons or no chemical weapons, wasn’t Musharraf mainly responsible for all the deaths? For sure not, as believed by the supporters of Musharraf who think human life means nothing. No wonder Mushy raised his hands in Islamabad and said that his supporters had shown their muscle when more than 50 people were killed in Karachi on May 12. But the Mushy supporters would never blame Musharraf for that since only their own lives matter to them not of ordinary people. Musharraf must be hanged for all those killings but only after he has been tortured ad-infinitum. And it has nothing to do with NS and AZ. If they have committed crimes they should be punished but Mushy should not be spared just because few of his “jiyalas” love him so much.

  38. D says:
    August 7th, 2008 8:40 am

    And just another note, please don’t criticise the Army that much, even i have done it in the past but not everyone within the Army is at fault. People don’t join the army to put their lives on the lines so that in 30 odd years they will become a General or President, they do it for the Love of their country and to protect us citizens. They do much more than the so called Politicians who only loot the nation.

    And if it wasn’t for the army Pakistan would be eaten up, if you are following all the external events out neighbours are sharpening their knives and what is our government doing? Some has to take control if not the Army then who?

  39. mamoo says:
    August 7th, 2008 8:41 am

    Actually the army is a better reflection of us than the 2%politicians. Atleast it includes people from all walks of life and not just the upper class. Atleast there was General who was a son of a subedar can you imagine a prime minister or president from a poor family. There is a saying if you are cruel then the ones who will rule you will be much worse in cruelty. At the end of the day it is us who have change.

  40. D says:
    August 7th, 2008 8:47 am

    Just because someone doesn’t agree with your view point you you tell them they should stop giving lectures on

  41. mamoo says:
    August 7th, 2008 8:49 am

    All of us are responsible for the mess in Pakistan. Sometimes I think that the only solution to this mess is to forgive and forget everyone (including murders, politicians etc) and start a new life from scratch. This I say because of our tribal mentality. A mentality of revenge, hatred, a mentallity where we will protect the crimnals for what ever crime they have committed. After everyone is forgiven, anyone violating the law must be punished be it who ever it is.

  42. mamoo says:
    August 7th, 2008 8:58 am

    Actually I must say that there should be compulsory military service. Atleast people who say that it is luxurious they will know what luxury is when you either have to live in places with below -50 degree temperatures at Sia chin or above 50 degrees in the deserts of Pakistan or for that matter away from families for days and days. The training is very tough and when you see death when these people are at war. We can sit in our drawing rooms and critisise them but it is a tough life in the armed forces mentally and physically both. I also say that the prime minister and president must have served in the armed forces and also in the civil field. Also he should be very knowledgable both worldly and religiously. He should also have served as a servent to civilians so atleast his arrogance is eliminated.

  43. Aamir Ali says:
    August 7th, 2008 9:03 am

    Ahmed R Shahid:

    Just to clarify, the folks in Lal Masjid were heavily armed criminals who vowed to die rather than surrender. It is they who are responsible for the entire event. Musharraf and the govt simply did their job, which is to capture or kill criminals.

    Your claim about chemical weapons in Lal Masjid is a flat out lie. Do you consider tear gas a chemical weapon as well ?

  44. Ahmad R. Shahid says:
    August 7th, 2008 9:15 am

    Now Mushy “jialas” would say that it was not even Mushy who raised his fist in the air and said that “My supporters have shown their strength in Karachi”. Kuch lougun kou agar souraj bhi dikha diya jayey tou wouh ussey manney sei bhi inkaar kar dein gei. Mushy “jialas” are no different. All those “jialas” keep defending Mushy. Thats ur life blood but only more blood would flow from that.

  45. TEE BEE says:
    August 7th, 2008 9:15 am
  46. Naseer says:
    August 7th, 2008 9:16 am

    Its like deja vu except that its not May and the PM belongs to the opposition party (??).
    Anyone recall a China visit by a PM and whe he returned he was told he was heading a corrutp government and the ‘ONLY’ righteous man has took it over again.

  47. mamoo says:
    August 7th, 2008 9:27 am

    NZs seems to be really disgusted. Somethings wrong somewhere. These two must be blackmailing each.

  48. Aamir Ali says:
    August 7th, 2008 9:29 am

    Ahmed Shadid:

    So now you move away from your lies about Lal Masjid. Good. Regarding May 12 in Karachi, it was not Musharraf who gave the orders, and the crossfire that resulted between ANP and MQM was both their fault.

    Regarding action in Baluchistan and elsewhere, once again it is the job of the government to target criminals and terrorists and to either capture or kill them. The current government is doing the same.

  49. ATP Administrator says:
    August 7th, 2008 10:46 am

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  50. Syed Saquib Saeed says:
    August 7th, 2008 11:24 am

    I wish, all politicians should be charged with treason. Their assets should be frozen and eventually used by the government (Which would end up a pretty huge amount). It’s the tax WE pay that they’ve looted anyway.
    Then they should be made to stand in a line and executed by firing squad.
    This would atleast let the younger and more educated generation (With real degrees and no family history of beaurucracy) to come up and stand for elections. Atleast they would have live consciouses and little experience of looting money.

    We need a new start. It’s always the same old corrupt people who win elections. And when they die, members of their immediate families (Like husbands and sons) take their places. This is a wheel which just goes round and round and round! And we expect to come out of this. Blind hope I say unless the wheel is broken.

  51. Syed Saquib Saeed says:
    August 7th, 2008 11:27 am

    To the ATP Administrator: Are we about to break the amount of comments record for the current story??? :)

  52. Nihari with bheja and nali says:
    August 7th, 2008 12:00 pm

    Kiya drama hai yaar. Judges will be restored after Musharraf is impeached. The one issue that brought the dictatorship to its knees is a secondry issue now. Free Judicary is a bigger threat to our democratic rulers than the army. Na nau mann teel hoga na radha nachay gi.

  53. D says:
    August 7th, 2008 12:00 pm

    How do we break the wheel? :(

  54. Ahmad R. Shahid says:
    August 7th, 2008 12:03 pm

    I think Judiciary is now a bigger threat to the Army than the politicians. So they and their supporters are the least sympathetic to it. Politicians have seen many courts for only they have ever been subjected to court cases but the military people have never faced them despite bringing the country to such ruins. But as we have seen over the last few years the Judiciary has been forcefully brought to knees by a military dictator drunk with power fully supported by the Army.

  55. ASLAM says:
    August 7th, 2008 12:18 pm

    Dear Saqib, no danger of breaking any records.. have you see that post on Univeristy rankings!

    Also, I think its just a few people here who keep posting the same comment or idea again and again and agin and making a nuscience of themselves.

  56. Aamir Ali says:
    August 7th, 2008 12:54 pm

    The army is not stopping the return of the judges, it is the politicians.

  57. Nihari with bheja and nali says:
    August 7th, 2008 12:56 pm

    So let’s say Musharraf is impeached. He goes to the Supreme court and get himself un impeached because the judges are his own hand picked. We are back to square one

  58. Khurram Farooqui says:
    August 7th, 2008 1:11 pm

    Nihari with bheja and nali says:

    So let

  59. Muhammad Uzair Sukhera says:
    August 7th, 2008 1:23 pm

    “Guess not much more can be expected from a moron who thought that Kargil was a stone

  60. Sam says:
    August 7th, 2008 1:25 pm

    Mush and his cronies did not come from skies. They are from among us. In the words of Bengali poet Rabindranath Tagore:

    “All the sorrows of the earth,
    its sins and crimes,
    have swelled like a tidal wave,
    overleaping the banks,
    blaspheming the skies.”

    “Whom do you condemn my brother?
    bow down your head,
    the sin is yours and mine.”

  61. Ahmad Tariq says:
    August 7th, 2008 1:58 pm

    Asif Zardari is delaying the judges’ restoration.
    He is not sincere about the impeachment of President Musharraf. The evidence trails to the point that the President made a false announcement of his departure to China and then decided to go again as if he is in all the comfort of life and knows he is not going to be impeached.

    This is all a game plan. And mark my words, these judges are not coming back at all.

  62. Naveed Khan says:
    August 7th, 2008 2:00 pm

    After almost 10 years of Musharaf saying this, it’s now time for the politicians to say:

    “Respect My Authoritah!”

    The point is that when Musharraf said it, it was backed by selfish needs and the power of the Army. Now when the polticians are saying it, it’s backed by selfish needs and votes.

    Can anyone spot the difference?

  63. Aamir Ali says:
    August 7th, 2008 2:38 pm

    Naveed Khan:

    The politicians already have their government and their power and authority. Why dont they use it for productive purpose instead of revenge politics?

  64. Simbiwa says:
    August 7th, 2008 2:39 pm

    This is not about Musharaf!!!

    It is the establishment. They will not take it lying low!
    Some drastic change will take place.

    10% and steel mill need to be considered , we are falling from sky and getting stuck on a tree.

    I think we should outsource our country to the highest bidder, we are still not ready to hold the reins yet.

    We have to pass through the dark ages before we learn how to govern ourselves.

  65. Naveed Khan says:
    August 7th, 2008 2:55 pm

    Aamir Ali:

    I agree that they have their priorities wrong but at the same time if they can get through this and get Musharraf impeached then it will be an enormous boost for parliament’s credibilty and ability albeit for politician’s own benefits. At least they’re doing something and hopefully this will get the ball rolling.

    A precedence will be set that if the parliament wants to do something they can and the will of the elected people can overcome major challenges.

    Also if and when the judiciary gets restored, it and the media will keep a check on the government so that they don’t abuse their power.

    All this may sound a bit wishful but if we take a long term view (50 to 100 years and more) this episode where if the parliament wins will be benficial for the country.

  66. Rafay Kashmiri says:
    August 7th, 2008 3:05 pm

    @64 comments, “Bheja drainage”

    Many trying to bring this circus to a delire.
    its sickening!

  67. Shiraz says:
    August 7th, 2008 3:13 pm

    PPP is within its mandate/ right to impeach Musharaf:
    However practically, these are scenarios:
    1. Musharraf survives impeachment due to absence of 2/3 majority in join session of NA and Senate.

    2. Musharraf is impeached and following happens:

    2.a. Musharaf invokes 58-2b and dissolves parliament. What practical powers PM YRG have to enforce will of parliament ?
    2.a.i- PM YRG asks IGP to arrest Musharaf
    2.a.ii- PM YRG aks Army Chief to arrest Musharaf
    2.a.iii- PM YRG asks Pakistan Supreme Court to rule on

    3. Seeing this mess Army takes over –once again

    If 1) Happens, should Musharraf can dissolve assemblies as by NOT impeaching him, they accepted him as President and then President can dissolve assemblies :-)

    2-a-i is highly unlikely given status and competence of Pakistan Police

    2-a-ii- Gen AK can deny the request siting that legally and per Constitution Musharraf is still Commander-In-Chief

    2.-a-iii- Supreme Court is pro-Musharraf so they will most lkely rule in favor of Musharraf.

    3- Highley unlikely as I don’t think so Gen AK wants t o tarnish Army’s image further.

    So we all want to be democratic and civil :-) so lets fight this battle in courts, assemblies not using Tanks or Stones in street.

    Meanwhile, during this circus, common person is wondering why the hell I elected these people as my issues are:
    1. Law and order
    2. Economy (Job, Food/ Oil Prices)
    3. Electricity

  68. Ahmad R. Shahid says:
    August 7th, 2008 3:16 pm

    Musharraf should be impeached even if the Army steps in. The government should not be too timid not to impeach him just because he might use 58-2B or the Army steps in. Its like saying that the Police should not catch the thief because he/she might strike back.

  69. Naseer says:
    August 7th, 2008 4:35 pm

    Just saw a news item that PM YRG is replacing Presdient for China, We all know the game being played, but as PM of a Large country and power he should have his plans laid out..I guess. Its make the mockery of PM’s office like he has nothing to do and can be sent anywhere on a moments notice. Or he is really so much wanting to go to Olympics that he does’nt care what’s going on at home.

  70. anti swindler says:
    August 7th, 2008 4:39 pm

    will those who love pakistan come forward, please.

    and i don’t mean the Politician. all they know is how to rob the people and fill their already overflowing pockets.
    Mayra mulk thumharee baap ke jageer nahee hai!

    Since they came into power what have they done other than further damaging the value of our currency.

    Every day there is a new tamasha.
    First it was the judiciary and now the impeachment issue.

    Do you think the common man cares about the lawyers? And please don’t say ‘have you not seen the rallies’. How much is the rate these days 1oo, 200…..500. Promise them money and a meal and they will readily stand next to you in rallies. That is the state of our desperate people.
    You think they came out for the love of the judiciary….. ha,ha. Just ask the common man how effective our judicial system is. They are the ones who have suffered most by these corrupt lawyers and judges.

    Wasted months on the judiciary issue. Now waste more on the impeachment drama.
    What will the impeachment do for us???
    Will it resolve the crisis of oil, load shedding, food etc.

    And who is impeaching whom?
    Mr.10% is impeaching? – the man for whom corruption has no boundaries.
    or is it Mr. Only naam kay sharif who is impeaching? – You have revenge written all over your face, for you all this is a personal vendetta.
    Have u all seen the look on his face when he talks about impeachment?

    Alas….If only the ruling parties were as committed to the real issues (oil, load shedding, food, safety etc.) as they are to the judicial and impeachment issue.

    I can predict what is to happen next.
    Another meeting will be called in our new capital (dubai) or in our holiday retreat (UK). And plane full of thugs will go decide the fate of the pakistani nation.
    You think there will be a mango crate in the plane?

  71. Roshan says:
    August 7th, 2008 5:19 pm

    I think Gen (R) Musharraf will use 58-2b as a last option but will attempt to crack 2/3 majority. The stage is set and the numbers game is very crucial as one requires 295 members to impeach President and ruling coalition assumes to have 309 including independents, FATA and Fazl u Rehman. There seems to have some players within the coalition which may ditch and it would be a great setback to new democratic setup. Principally, I believe, the government should resign if it fails to impeach President.
    BTW, if Musharraf uses 58-2b, then it would be a similarity between Gilani and Junejo as both were in China when their government was dissolved.

  72. Zaka says:
    August 7th, 2008 5:23 pm

    Hang musharraf from Minar-e-Pakistan, after impeachment.

  73. Ahmad R. Shahid says:
    August 7th, 2008 5:24 pm


    The democratically elected government should resign if it fails to impeach the President but the President doesn’t need to resign when he commits all kinds of grand mistakes?

  74. August 7th, 2008 6:53 pm



  75. bundagi says:
    August 7th, 2008 7:59 pm

    Musharraf has taken the back seat ever since the ruling coalition has come to power. It is the ruling coalition now that has to answer for all the problems that are being faced by Pakistan. The economy is in extreme turmoil, the situation in NWFP is still not under control. But despite all this, it is not President Musharraf who is required to be answerable for all this since he seems to have handed over the reins of power over to the elected government. Is that fair? Why should at this point the president, who is in part responsible for all the problems that we are facing today, be calmly enjoying his tenure as President. The move to impeach him is fair, however, whether he gets impeached or not is a totally different matter. He will fight it and he has a right to fight it. But, the question our leaders should be asking is this, will impeaching President Musharraf solve all the problems being faced by Pakistan? Is it fair to blame all the problems on him? I don’t see much change or even hope of change ever since the new government has taken over.

  76. ATPer says:
    August 7th, 2008 8:59 pm

    Reading some of the comments here, from all side, has been disappointing. Its like the crap you find on YouTube or some of the other blogs by people just misbehaving and calling each other names. I hope that ATP will not let this continue. It will not force the more thoughtful readers go away. For many of us we come here every day as much for the regular commenters and their intellectual comments and ideas as we do for the posts. So, please, do not let these shouting types crowd out the people and ideas that makes this our home away from home.

  77. amina from the north says:
    August 7th, 2008 9:43 pm

    A page from my diary. Let me share it with you guys.
    Today I am really sad of the experience I had with the Pakistani politician and the first family of Pakistan.. Since I started my internship in Embassy of Pakistan in Washington DC I was really excited that I will got to see the PM of our nation. Because I think that it is a honor to meet the Prim Minister . But all excitement ended when I got to see the real face of our leaders. It started with the strange experience when Senator Khawaja Came in our camp office really mad because the officer have put his name in wrong place in the hand book. He wanted the person to be fired because he said that the last government have done a lot of injustice to him, and now we are ignoring him too. He yelling at us the same way Pakistani people treat their servant. I don

  78. Aamir Ali says:
    August 7th, 2008 10:17 pm

    Ahmed Shadid

    The current govt doesnt even have an economic minister or an economic policy, the result is that the economy is degenerating. Is that Mr Musharraf’s fault or that of the last eight years?

  79. Roshan says:
    August 7th, 2008 10:20 pm

    I think Musharraf should have resigned after Feb 18 as his coalition party could not get public mandate. But we know, a person who comes to power with coup hardly thinks about the democratic norms. Yet we expect, these norms from the parties who believe in democratic process.

  80. Tariq H. says:
    August 7th, 2008 11:21 pm

    I really do not liek Zardari. But the fact is that this government was elected and it deserves a chance to finish its term. If they do badly, like I think they will, then let people vote them out. But the term of elected govt has to be completed.

  81. Lal Salaam says:
    August 7th, 2008 11:24 pm

    @amina from the north
    you have got to be kidding me!!! I had to read your comment twice, but am still not sure what you are lamenting.
    This is an elected Govt. And again, please nothing, absolutely nothing can compare to the embarrassment that was caused by Mush’s rape comment in D.C.
    Again, we elected this Govt. and want to see it complete the 5 years.

  82. auk says:
    August 7th, 2008 11:57 pm

    Musharraf is a distraction in the current political setup and should leave of his own volition if not forcibly removed. We Pakistanis have a habit of not looking at the big picture and tend to focus on the peripheral issues. The fact of the matter is that he has no more the moral and legal authority to be President of Pakistan. He has lost this authority because of the acts committed against the people and institutions of Pakistan since March 2007. His manipulation of the constitution of Pakistan is unprecedented in the history of this country. The fact of the matter is that with his approval ratings at 11%, according to most optimistic estimates, in another civilized country he would have left long time ago. But we are talking of Pakistan here. His 4 advisors and 11 supporters on this board are insisting that he is the elected President of the country.

    His supporters claim that the govt should focus on the problems of this country. Yes, without him that would be one less problem that this govt will have to deal with. That alone will be hugely positive for the country. Without the distraction in the President house, we can finally focus on the real issues and stop wasting our energies on getting him out of there. Pakistani economy is facing a crisis of confidence today. That crisis won’t go away until the stalemate between the institutions of the government comes to an end. Once resolved, businessmen will bring their money back to the country. Otherwise the flight of capital that we are seeing is not going to stop.

    America needs to understand that we can’t keep killing our own people. This war that is burning our house has to stop. Without him at the helm, we can finally tell America that we will deal with the extremism problem our own way; with negotiations. Otherwise British learned long time ago that you can’t fight these fiercely independent Pakhtoons. If anyone here disagrees, they are welcome to join the fighting.

    And yes, Ahmad Shahid, all I can say is Amen, Amen and Amen.

  83. Kamal says:
    August 7th, 2008 11:59 pm

    Well if people on all sides put their blinders down and think about what is actually happening rather that who they like or not like, then this is just one more sign of eh chaos that is ruling Pakistan. Just look at the front page of this blog right now. You have one post asking is Yousuf Raza Gillani may be on his way out and another one saying that maybe Musharraf is on his way out.

  84. Salim says:
    August 8th, 2008 12:05 am

    Doctor Adil Najam;
    Impeachment by two crooks of a third crook? All humble servants of the Law? It is hilarious! Jinnah Sahib must be rolling in his grave.
    This house of crooks has to burn to the ground. Only thus purified the Phoenix of hope and prosperity
    will rise.

  85. Gulab Jamun says:
    August 8th, 2008 12:12 am

    Musharraf should really have left a year ago. If he had he would have become a hero. Now he has become a distraction and is making life worse for everyone. Please leave Mr. Musharraf, so that the country can get on with life and this craziness can end.

  86. QADIR says:
    August 8th, 2008 12:30 am

    I dont think that the formal impeachment will happen at all. But all this pressure will force Musharraf to leave or o be told by teh Army to leave. That will be the best solution.

  87. Haroon Hayat says:
    August 8th, 2008 12:38 am



    ISLAMABAD: In order for the impeachment move against President Pervez Musharraf to succeed, it is necessary for the government to have the support of 295 members in a combined House of 442. The National Assembly has a total of 342 members and the Senate 100 members.

    Eight clauses of Article 47 of the Constitution relate to the impeachment of the president. In order to table an impeachment motion, signatures of at least half the members of the National Assembly or the Senate must in practice be presented to either the Speaker of the National Assembly or the Chairman Senate. It is also necessary to ensure the presence of at least two-thirds of the members of the National Assembly and the Senate at the time of voting.

    The number of members required to gain a two-thirds majority in both houses is 295. If an impeachment motion is presented against the president, the signatures of at least 172 members of the National Assembly

  88. Very concerned says:
    August 8th, 2008 12:43 am

    If Musharraf gets impeached, who will take his place? zardari? one of the sharif brothers? can the country really put its fate in the hands of those who have already done more than enough to run in to the ground? zardari is a chairman of a political party yet he talks and makes decisions like the owns the entire country.. as for nawaz sharif..his one point agenda of impeachment just shows a person hungry for revenge. The major issues facing Pakistan are: inflation, food crisis, energy crisis and of course terrorism.. do any of these so called ‘leaders’ have plans to address these issues? does the reinstatement of the cheif justice or impeachment of musharaf really solve these issues? does the average pakistani man who tries to feed his children one meal a day really care abt chaudry iftikhar? NO! no one does! every one can see what a sham this government is. Not saying that under Musharraf’s rule everything was hunkie dorie, no there was many mistakes made under his govt as well. The leaders should be focusing on a multifaceted strategy to combat inflation, address the energy and food crisis immediately, improve the economy and the living standards of the PEOPLE OF PAKISTAN first and then think about other issues.

  89. Muhammad Rizwan Malik says:
    August 8th, 2008 1:44 am

    Its more like a joke…

  90. legaleagle says:
    August 8th, 2008 4:35 am


    Siyasi Rustam NAKAAM….Mian Nawaz Sharif! (apnay chotay malsheeyay Shahbaz kay saath)

    Siyasi sar-e-aam BADNAAM…..Asif Ali Zardari!

    ka DANGAAL-E-MOAKHIZAA bil mokabil

    Janab SADR PAKISTAN….Pervaiz Musharraf

    kay saath phir say tay paya hai!

    Hoshiyaar aur Khabardaar!

    Pehalwaan k naray shoru ho chukay hain!

    (Maafi kay saath, DANGAL kisi bhi waqt Pehlwaanon ki phook nikal janay ki vaja say cancel bhi ho sakta hai, lihaza apna ticket sooch samajh k khridina!)

  91. legaleagle says:
    August 8th, 2008 7:33 am

    Whenever I see Zardari and Nawaz (ZARNAWAZ) duo meeting regarding the President I cannot help but think somehow that

    Bhonknay valay kuttay kata nahin kartay! (Barking Dogs do not Bite!)

  92. Aqil Sajjad says:
    August 8th, 2008 7:35 am

    This appears to be a PR stunt and it’s far from clear whether they even have the required numbers to pull it off. For the last 4 months, Zardari has been avoiding impeachment, so what has suddenly changed now? Is there any good reason to believe that he is serious this time?

    Points to note:
    1. The impeachment clause in the constitution refers to a legitimate president and that is why a two-thirds majority is required. It’s not clear whether the coellission has the required numbers, but more importantly, resorting to this clause amounts to treating Musharraf as a legally elected president.
    2. The other alternative would have been to restore the judiciary streight away and challange his legality in the restored court. That way, a two-thirds majority would not have been required.
    3. It seems that the judiciary’s issue is being deliberately sidelined. If Musharraf gets replaced by a Salman Taseer like person, it won’t be an improvement. The restoration of the judiciary is the main issue, and not the replacement of Musharraf by another bad president.
    4. Also note that the only legal candidate during the presidential election was Justice Wajihuddin. But the PPP will never want to make him president. They will try to install their own man in the presidency.
    5. Celebration would be a mistake. It’s quite possible that the impeachment attempt will fail due to the lack of required numbers. In that case, Zardari will go around claiming that he tried but what can he do about the numbers? He will then link it with the judges’ issue and say that he wants to restore them, but just like he doesn’t have the numbers to impeach Musharraf, he doesn’t have the required strength to restore the judiciary or some other such excuse. And in the unlikely scenario that Musharraf does get impeached, then expect a PPP installed president but no restoration of the judiciary. This will mean a government without any checks and balances, which is not something to celebrate.

    In short, this move appears to be a gimick to improve the image of Zardari and the PPP since it has taken a battering due to their unwillingness to restore the judges. It is important that we do not get impressed by any such PR stunt. We must continue to press for an unconditional restoration of all the deposed judges with full suo motu powers and the ouster of Dogar and others who collaborated in the Nov 3 conspiracy.

  93. Aqil Sajjad says:
    August 8th, 2008 7:36 am

    Also, Ayaz Amir has the following article today, which is worth reading:

  94. Aqil Sajjad says:
    August 8th, 2008 7:47 am

    There appears to be almost the same message being posted in support of Mush over and over again. I request the administrators to crackdown on posters who are doing this. Let this forum remain a serious place for discussion.

    Ironically enough, the thrust in that regularly repeated comment goes as follows:

    Pakistan’s major problems: economy/inflation, terrorism, law and order, food and energy crises.
    Then the person goes on to ask “is Mush’s impeachment or the restoration of the CJ really going to solve these problems?”

    One can turn around and rephrase this as follows:

    Pakistan’s major problems: economy/inflation, terrorism, law and order, food and energy crises.
    Is saving Mush’s Kursi and back side (even if it means destroying the judiciary) and keeping the CJ out (even though it will deal a blow to accountability) going to solve these problems?

  95. D says:
    August 8th, 2008 9:49 am


  96. Dr. Arghuman says:
    August 8th, 2008 9:54 am

    I agree with Aqil. It seems that if the purpose of this is really to remove Musharraf. Which is a good purpose. Then the best strategy is to restore the judges and do it through the courts since the case can easily be made there on legal grounds. That would solve both the biggest crises at the same time.

  97. Ahmad R. Shahid says:
    August 8th, 2008 10:02 am

    I wonder if the impeachment of the President and the restoration of the judges would really improve things, they would only correct two wrongs. One is the self-imposition of a COAS as the President, which the consitution doesn’t allow and for which the saza is death by hanging, and the other is to restoration of the illegally and unconstitutionally deposed judges by a person who has no right to depose them.

    Apart from that its just part of a bigger evolutionary scheme of things that takes place over centuries and not days. But surely any impeachment of a former COAS would hinder the mis-adventures of future Generals.

  98. Aamir Ali says:
    August 8th, 2008 10:28 am


    It is the choice of the Pakistani people to obsess over Mr Musharraf, even though he is no longer running the country, and it is the choice of the Pakistani people to believe in fantasies, such as “dont kill our own people (terrorists)” and tell America to “go away”.

    Pakistanis believe in delusions then throw tantrums when someone like Musharraf points out facts to them.

  99. Dr Cocopal says:
    August 8th, 2008 10:50 am

    No body is going anywhere MIAN,ZARDARI AND MUSH are here till BUSH is there.
    If this GROUP OF ..DOVES.. really want to bring some good change in our life JUST Restore the judges or stop this TOPI DRAMA of impeachment as soon as possible .

  100. RJH says:
    August 8th, 2008 11:00 am

    Just a lot of “hot air”
    The “unelected” leaders have found another way to distract the citizens from real issues: lack of law and order, food shortages, high inflation, high taxes, political corruption ……….

  101. Kabir Das says:
    August 8th, 2008 5:14 pm

    Mush’s goose, as far as I can see, has been cooked good and proper. Let us see how well he fights his case. If I were his lawyer I will make the plea for his mental incapacity to save him from death by stoning or something like that. His just one remark yesterday is enough to prove his mental incapacity. He said: I have never violated the constitution of Pakistan. By the way lying is not a serious offence in the Islamic Republic of Pakistan as it is in USA.

  102. Adam Insaan says:
    August 8th, 2008 5:32 pm

    -just wondering if not I heard the “Prince of Denmark” /Hamlet just whispering something like ; “there is something rotten in the State of Denmark” . Nowadays it could be implemented on certain factors concerning a country called Pakistan.

  103. Aqil Sajjad says:
    August 9th, 2008 1:35 am

    Ahmad R. Shahid:
    I agree that change is a slow, evolutionary process. There is no magic wand that will imediately fix the problems. The judiciary’s restoration, however, would be an important step forward. Even more than the impeachment of Musharraf in fact, since institutions are more important than individuals.
    Also, if he is given a safe exit, then the impeachment will not be of much significance in the long-run evolution of democracy.

  104. Jalal HB says:
    August 9th, 2008 6:01 am

    These days impeachment of Pres Mush is what everyone is talking – but who are demanding it? The top leaders of the two major political parties which themselves have a shady past of throwing out the sitting CJ from his office and making and “exporting” billions out of the country.

    Let the first stone be thrown by the someone who hasnt committed a sin till date.

  105. Ahmad R. Shahid says:
    August 9th, 2008 9:51 am

    @Aqil Sajjad

    In view of your letter that appeared in The News today and your reply to my comments I wish to state that I think that restoration of judiciary would have been the ideal way of doing things but idealism can’t always be followed so the second best or the third best options have to be weighed and in that sense I think impeachment of Musharraf is of paramount importance.

    As for giving him the safe exit and the evolution of institutions, I believe that once again the ideal solution would be to try him for treason under Article 6 of the constitution. But if that can’t be done then at least try to impeach him under whatever options are available and I believe that even this act would make future mis-adventures less probable. The reason being that previously the military dictators were never been impeached. So its a historical improvement over the past. Further historical improvement would come in the future when a head of the state or the government won’t just be impeached but punished for his/her crimes.

    Historically Chengez Khan was never punished for his crimes but Radovan Karad

  106. Shafiq says:
    August 9th, 2008 12:04 pm

    Ahmad R Shaid

  107. Ahmad R. Shahid says:
    August 9th, 2008 1:10 pm


    As for Bush I agree with you. But in that respect I think we should look at American history. Bush Sr. also attacked Iraq but its only Bush Jr. whom people are even talking about impeachment. And that is definitely a marked improvement over leaders who were responsible for the mass extermination of Red Indians but no body even thought about impeaching them. Nixon was to be impeached for just the tapping of a phone and Clinton for his affair with Lewinsky, far lesser crimes than that of Bush. But in future, given the historical trend, I believe that American Presidents would be impeached for even lesser crimes than what Bush has done.

  108. August 9th, 2008 2:18 pm

    Musaarraf should not only be impeached but he should be given punishment he deserves for break the constitution ,damaged judiciary,held in house arrest chief justice with his children and other sixty judges of judiciary,illegally elected himself as president for next five years from the out going asemblies,sold pakistanies to American Govt,killed women in habsa mosque by bombing,and throwing chemicals to burn them,killed pakistanis mostly civilians women and children in NWFP/FATA/BALUCHISTAN,allow Americns airforce and soldiers to enter in pakistan,without consulting people of pakistan.

  109. Kabir Das says:
    August 9th, 2008 2:32 pm

    I don’t know about you guys but the announcement of the coalition partners to impeach our self proclaimed Messiah sounded like music to my ears. The way Zardari pronounced and lay stress on the declaration for the impeachment of ‘General Pervez Musharraf’ sounded like the opening bars of Beethoven’s fifth symphony: ‘did did did da’ which you may know stands for the letter ‘V’ in morse code and the letter ‘V’ is a sign of ‘Victory’.

    Hope and pray the scorned relic of our past is consigned to the dust bin of history never to rise again. Before that the KHABIS should be stoned to death for raping and embarrasing a nation in the comity of nations to deter others who may dare to follow in his foot steps. For this stoning there should be no bar on a person to throw the first stone who may have himself commited a sin since such is the nature of the sins commited by this most ugly and sinister Messiah.

    At the same time be watchful of Zardari. His decision to impeach Mush first and to restore the judges later looks bit fishy to me though the media has not made much of it. Logically the judges should have been restored before the impeachment.

    Please also join me in my brief prayer: Oh, God save us from the protection of our protectors (You know who).

  110. Shafiq says:
    August 9th, 2008 2:44 pm

    With due respect to Mr Ahmad R Shahid

  111. amina from the north says:
    August 10th, 2008 12:24 am

    i don’t get it.If the president was illegal elected, are the two guys(naawzdari) who are not in the parliament are legally allow to impeach the president???????????????????? It is just a question , do we really have any constitution.

  112. Humaira says:
    August 10th, 2008 12:27 am

    Amina from the north, no it is not difficult to understand at all. It is very simple, if you only think about it.

    Zardari and Nawaz Sharif will not impeach the Musharraf. The Parliament will. that’s what it is suppose to do. I guess you have gotten unaccustomed to a parliament that actually does its job. Like kicking out an illegal President.

    Simple enough, isn’t it.

  113. Shafiq says:
    August 10th, 2008 2:29 am

    No Humaria!! its not that simple.

    We have an illegal president under whom the elections were held following his illegal declaration of emergency, those elected were sworn in, even if they were wearing black bands or whatever they were sworn, by an illegal president who gave them protection by unprecedented act of NRO and are sitting in the parliament because of illegal actions of an illegal president and those who themselves at one time or another attacked a supreme Court, got rod of chief justice now acting like saints are demanding and are prepared to impeach a president.

    No, I am not saying Musharraf should stay or go. I am just pointing out the reality.

    What a joke!!!

  114. legaleagle says:
    August 10th, 2008 10:27 am

    Before you sing in unison with the band-wagon of impeaching Musharraf, ask yourself the following?

    1. Who elected Nawaz Sharif and Zardari? Their own parties are being run as un-democratically as possible. Zardari got his family and yes-men (and women) romping the hooch while Nawaz Sharif is ruling the roost of PML (N) with his family members at every position.

    2. Lets make this debacle fair for ALL. Let the President withdraw the NRO and first let the Zardari and his Cronies pay for their looting of the national exchequer in the past. Nawaz should also be tried for the Aircraft case against him.

    3. I was never in favor of Musharaf a few months ago but now seeing the likes of Zardari and particularly the Sharif brothers ”jahilana” acts! I feel his presence is necessary!

    After all in order to keep the ”baighairats” from PPP and PML (N) in check, we need a bigger ”baighairat” in the President House.

    Bring it ON Zardari and Nawaz, lets see if you could put your money where your frequently lying mouth is this time!

  115. amina from the north says:
    August 10th, 2008 2:46 pm


  116. ITWhyTea says:
    August 10th, 2008 6:04 pm

    All the people supporting Nawaz and Zardari must be too young to remember their looting pasts or must be on some kind of strong crack.

    For the legal community if you hate Musharraf, do you remember Nawaz’s physical attack on the Supreme court?

    For all those calling Musharraf Chor, remember Zardari’s nick Mr. 10%.

    For all those calling Musharraf America’s dog, remember who ran to Clinton during Kargil days and virtually gave up Siachen forever?

    Compared to Nawaz and Zardari, Musharraf is a saint

  117. Pakistani says:
    August 10th, 2008 6:27 pm

    ITWhyT, I am not too old to remember the bad things Nawaz and Zardari did, but I am wise enough to know that whatever mistakes they made Musharraf’s actions were worse. From his treason in snatching power to his disregard of the constitution. It does not matter if Nawaz and Zardari are good or bad, people have chosen them, and they have rejected Musharraf. That is all that matters.

    And if you really think that Musharraf is a saint, then what is the definition of a sinner!

  118. ITWhyTea says:
    August 10th, 2008 9:28 pm

    Mr. Pakistani
    Please tell us what people have choosen Nawaz and Zardari? I bet you can’t because no one voted for them. People were fooled into thinking they were voting for Amin Fahim. Not some chaati jamat paas (Gilani).

    For the definition of Sinners lookup Gunja and Ghaddari.

  119. Steve says:
    August 10th, 2008 11:01 pm

    Nawaz and Zardari are going to have the time of they lives. Seriously, crooks never survive in any form of policitics. They will not last long.

  120. Najam Ahmed says:
    August 11th, 2008 4:35 am

    President Musharraf MUST NOT resign. He MUST face his impeachment boldly. I realize that he has the courage to face these FRAUD politicians!

  121. August 11th, 2008 8:09 am

    Banay hain ahle hawas, muda’ee bhi mulzim bhi….

  122. Usman Akram says:
    August 11th, 2008 9:32 am

    @Junaid: I believe musharaf only waged war against people who were demolishing girl

  123. Amber says:
    August 11th, 2008 12:58 pm

    President Musharaf is the best President Pakistan has ever had. As for the present government and political leaders, they are all corrupt and greedy for the country

  124. Reader says:
    August 11th, 2008 2:17 pm

    I must say the quality of comments and childish anger expressed by both sides in the comments of this post (and also the Aafia Siddiqui one) is pathetic. Seems like the people who inhabit youtyube comments etc have invaded ATP.

    This is very unlike ATP and a source of concern for your regular readers. Please do not let the quality of this blog go down with these silly comments that have no substance at all. Moderate them out. Fewer intelligent comments are much better than lots and lots of shouting matches.

  125. Uzair says:
    August 11th, 2008 5:08 pm

    What really hurts me most is that there is NO ONE, not Musharraf, not Zardari, not Sharif, not anyone else, that I think I can trust. It is a sad sad state of affairs

  126. syed ali raza says:
    August 11th, 2008 6:28 pm

    well every one wanted it & asked for it now they have it, a glorious 3rd term of probably 2 of the most corrupt individuals, one deceased to ever grace planet earth, i am speechless

  127. Analyst says:
    August 11th, 2008 10:24 pm

    Irrespective of what one would like to see happening, lets please focus on what is likely to happen here as the post asks. The signs from today’s newspaper are that Musharraf is in trouble and real trouble.

    1. Army is sending signals that it will stay away from this impeachment and let things happen as they will.
    2. Ch. Shujaat called meeting of 54 PML-Q parliament members to discuss strategy and only 20 show up. There is clearly an anti-Mush PML-Q faction emerging.
    3. In Punjab Assembly vote, 39 PML-Q voted against Musharraf in the new resolution against him.
    4. USA is sending signals that it will not intervene to save Musharraf this time. Partly bc they are losing patience with him and partly because they are distracted with Russia-Georgia sitiation.

    Today was Pervez Musharraf’s birthday, but not a good day for him.

  128. Hala says:
    August 12th, 2008 1:26 am

    I think talk of impeaching the President is linked with his power to use 58 2 (b). You have a scary President difficult to qualify. Nobody can begrudge him the seat of President. And so the young democracy is finiding it difficult to move forward with people from the past especially with Judiciary hanging in the balance.

  129. abdullah says:
    August 12th, 2008 2:12 pm

    Musharaf may have been a good president, an excellent usurper, a bloody dictator and a mastermind manipulator but please let him leave the country’s presidency now. He has ruled for more than eight years and has done havoc with the country. Of course no one forgets his sentimental national address of 12th October, 1999 and tracing him to the present, musharaf has proved to be a magnificent liar who is bent upon sticking to the president’s seat no matter what.
    I believe that musharaf has very special secrets in his bag against Zardari especially and Sharif Butt as well but creating a drama like that is not going to help. (making a laughing stalk in front of the world) and ofcourse he has to go.
    Zardari and Sharif Butt are compulsive thieves, no complain from them. Both have their needs to fulfill. Zardari ofcourse mr. 10% and Sharif with no brains at all are in the political arena right now. I hate both of these as much as any one else but do we have a choice. NO
    Zardari has his PPPP and Sharif his PML(N) both with a considerable majority in the parliament as well as in the provincial assemblies. Lets give them a chance. Good or bad this present assembly should complete its tenure to keep the wheel of democracy rolling.
    Credit certainly goes to musharaf for holding the elections after five years and thus setting the stage for democracy in its true sense in Pakistan.
    If the present assembly completes its five years then one can confidently say that Pakistan is on its way to restoration of democracy.
    So lets all of us make it a point to email a message to musharaf to leave the president’s seat for his benefit and for the greater benefit of the country.
    This address is his official address please tell him to go now.
    P.S Yaro yeh na likhna “lagay raho munna bahi”

  130. legaleagle says:
    August 13th, 2008 12:11 am

    Mushahid Hussain Syed has made an excellent suggestion to President Musharraf;

    RESTORE the Judges



    Viola…..hum tai dubay gay sanam parr tum ko bhi lay dubay gay!

    This would be an excellent move to bring to the book the criminal likes of ZARDARI and NAWAZ SHARIF. They should not be allowed to escape their fate this time!

  131. Momin says:
    August 13th, 2008 1:20 am

    I like the idea from leagaleagal.

    Musharraf should first restore the judges, then repeal the NRO and then resign. That would give the country an honest clean start. Musharraf will be OUT. Zardari will be OUT. Sharif will be OUT.

    Maybe then we can get somewhere.

  132. abdullah says:
    August 13th, 2008 2:29 am

    You mean that first thing Justice Iftikhar Chaudary after restoration is going to do is catch musharaf by his **lls and penalize him for all his misdeeds since 12th October, 1999. Furthermore, do we think that Aitazaz will let musharaf go so easily after he restores the judiciary.
    Lets think of some plausible and palpable suggestion to ease out musharaf’s agony. (fauji ha baba muft main mara jai ga koi aachi se salah do)

  133. Aamir Ali says:
    August 13th, 2008 3:51 am

    A few folks here are condemning Musharraf for doing his job in killing terrorists in Lal Masjid, FATA and Baluchistan. I ask such people, is the current govt any different? or do you think the govt should just sit idly by while terrorists smash Pakistan to bits?

  134. Amber says:
    August 13th, 2008 6:50 am

    Thank you Abdullah very much for your comments and for President Musharraf

  135. Samiul Haq says:
    August 14th, 2008 7:22 am

    Sami-ul-Haq from Mardan:- The current government will be packed up by the President General Pervez Musharraf. He won’t be stepped down unitil completion of his tenure. He is a constitutional President and have taken all the steps in the best interest of Pakistan.


  136. Usman Akram says:
    August 14th, 2008 8:41 am

    We have definitely made a wrong choice by voting for this government. I hope this government is over thrown by the President who is by the constitution of Pakistan, president for next four years.
    NB:Justice Iftikhar took oath under PCO where as existing Judges have taken oath under the constitution and Musharaf will definitely have support from Army if something happens. The only reason army and Musharaf are quiet is to let nation see what mess this government creates.
    The current government cannot impeach Musharaf, It will be a different story if Musharaf walks away himself. That will be a sad day, he has fought and bled for his nation during his service. The only reason he will walk away will be if he is hopeless for Pakistan.

  137. Syed Qurban Ali says:
    August 14th, 2008 1:10 pm

    I agree with many others that it is time for Musharraf to leave.

    I actually like him much more than Zardari and Sharif myself. But the fact is that people voted for PPP and PML and now Musharraf is staying for no reason and it is distracting everything that the nation should be doing.

    he should come on TV and say that in the country and national harmony he will leave the President’s office and he will wish the country and the government the best. I think people will respect him more for a decision like that.

  138. Sheikh Abdul Hayee says:
    August 14th, 2008 2:13 pm

    In many ways, I think the single best solution to this very bad situation is the following;

    1. Judges restored
    2. NRO revoked
    3. Musharraf resigns
    4. New elections held
    5. New parliament takes on full constitutional review (the constitution is now so messed up with change after change that any and everything in Pakistan is now at the same time illegal and legal in politics)

    I think (1) and (3) will happen and maybe even (4) will have to happen. But the other two I am not sure of.

  139. Kohsarwalla says:
    August 14th, 2008 2:59 pm

    I also think that the writing on the wall is clear. Three provincial assemblies have voted for impeachment. Zardari has played his cards well. The US is not interesting in saving Musharraf this time.

    I don’t know if things will become better with Musharraf gone, but I think they will become worse if he stays.

    I agree with last poster that having a new election immediately after he is gone will clear a lot of the air and maybe give us a fresh start.

  140. Fed Up Pakistani says:
    August 14th, 2008 4:07 pm

    If the govt can guarantee that things will become better for ordinary Pakistanis after Musharraf impeachment then I woudl say, go for it. But I am not at all sure that they will.

  141. Ashfaq says:
    August 14th, 2008 5:26 pm

    Zardari is leaving for Europe for medical treatment again. It means that either (a) a deal with Musharraf has already been stuck or (b) he is so confident that Musharraf will be impeached or leave that he is willing to be away in this crucial time?

  142. auk says:
    August 14th, 2008 11:10 pm

    I am wondering what part of the word “Democracy” folks here have difficulty understanding.
    There are those who claim that Musharraf is perhaps the best thing that happened to Pakistan since Jinnah. I don’t want to burst your bubble, but here are the vote counts from the three assemblies.
    Punjab 321/371 (86%) for impeachment
    Pakhtoonkhwa 107/124 (86%) for impeachment
    Sindh 93/163 (57%) for impeachment
    I am sure that our Baloch brothers would vote for impeachment more overwhelmingly than all others.

    Then there are those who are claiming that reelections should be held to solve our problems. I beg to ask, why, and if elections were to be held, how would they prove to be a balm for our sufferings this time?

    The 2 main problems that the country is facing (an illegal president and his illegally appointed Judiciary) were problems that existed before the elections. Also does anyone have a clue as to the “Cost” of holding elections in Pakistan. Besides the Billions spent by the government, there are hidden costs in terms of work stoppage and productivity loss.

    Before we pass any judgment against this government, please keep in mind these facts. The people elected these representatives for 5 years, let them do their job.

    This is not about individuals, or personalities, but about the system; a system that we usually have trouble running. For Pakistan to succeed, the system has to win; today, tomorrow and after tomorrow. Otherwise we will keep experimenting with failed policies and will keep failing Pakistan.

  143. Mariam says:
    August 15th, 2008 3:04 pm

    Thing is, with all these extensive debates and ‘discussions’ no one seems to realize that Pakistan is falling deeper and deeper in to trouble. With the rupee at a record low, inflation rising, crime increasing and disease spreading, the last thing on the plate should be an extensive discussion by the ‘ruling party’.
    Their reasons are more personal and petty instead of being for the betterment of the country. What shocks me is that two of the most corrupt men, Sharif and Zardari are living the good life at the expense of Pakistani taxpayers.
    - The solution is to first of stop fighting fire with fire – with the Taliban – because that is obviously not working. Their infiltration is honestly just scary.
    - Second, reinstate judges and make them completely untouchable to the whims of political leaders – Musharaff and Sharif are both to blame for this.
    - Third – hold an election where those running can only qualify if they have (a) a higher education degree (b) no corruption charges in their entire careers (c) no jail time in their life span

  144. Shafiq says:
    August 15th, 2008 3:48 pm

    auk @

    The part of

  145. Abdul Wadood says:
    August 15th, 2008 11:07 pm

    At this point I think it is now safe to say that (a) Musharraf will leave, and (b) not through impeachment but by resignation.

    But what will happen after that. Who will become president and will the coalition survive. I think things could remain unstable for a long time.

  146. abdullah says:
    August 16th, 2008 8:59 am

    Abdul Wadood @

    I happened to look upon your predictions e.g which is going to be the best way for musharaf to leave and the aftermath. Pakistan is the only country on the globe and Pakistani’s are the only nation about whom every prediction beyond any reasonable doubt has never ever proved to be true. This proves how versatile the Pakistani nation is.
    ALHAMDOLLIAH, Pakistan has never been in a state of stability. Its a nation in continuous turmoil but a very resilient nation indeed. And this instability is not inherent in the nation, its the ruler which puts the country into spin.
    Musharaf ruthlessly screwed the country, from his very first day as he and his progenies destroyed the basic institutional fabric of the country. The think tank he setup (NRB) was a sham and the local government system which was introduced as a result of tank thinking is nothing more than a looting system designed to make the provincial assemblies ineffective.
    Name one district nazim in Punjab who is not corrupt to his bones. Where have trillions of rupees gone since inception of the local government system as things have gone from bad to worse.
    I requested everyone to write an email to musharf imploring him to leave BUT I reckon that you have asked musharaf “laga raho munna bhai”.
    Its over eight years and “aik shakal dekh ker main toh tang aa giya hoon” NEXT in line please !!

  147. Rizwan says:
    August 16th, 2008 4:43 pm

    Pakistan’s most credible person Mr. Edhi Questioned today about the wealth of Sharif Brothers and said we all know Zardari but spoke nice about Musharraf.

    Pakistani people have no clue what they are doing. They believe Zardari more than Edhi.

  148. Silver says:
    August 17th, 2008 4:08 am

    Do we really need Impeachment or Resignation?

    Will Laurel and Hardy manage to revive the country even if Musharraf is gone?

    Perhaps Laurel is looking for another 10% and wants Musharraf out of his way

  149. Rizwan says:
    August 17th, 2008 3:35 pm

    I still believe in Musharraf. Yes he has made mistakes but he is a good human unlike politicians.

  150. zafar khan says:
    August 17th, 2008 4:45 pm

    Can any one please explain that if all the Judges are restored,
    Will they refuse to take cases where leaders of the lawyers movement are involved? Or should there be a law stopping all these leaders to stop practicing law?
    With regard to Pakistani politics our only hope is that the next military take over whenever it will be ( but it will be) completely wipe out not only the MNAs & MPAs but distribute all their properties and wealth among the countless poor millions. All other solutions will never work, mark my word.
    No political movement will ever succeed in a country like Pakistan.

  151. Rizwan says:
    August 17th, 2008 5:31 pm

    Only Army is credible institute Pakistan has. Have faith in our army and in army generals. Politicians are good if they are like Imran Khan but if they are like Imran khan they do not get any where. So they are forced to do inhuman acts such as killing , kidnaping , torching , rape and some time taking over others land.
    Musharraf made mistakes but how about these politicians? I believe Pakistan was on right track right before Lal Musjid Incident , One these politicians gave wrong advices to Musharraf, 2ndly enemy of Musharraf woke up to go after him such as ctbt ( choti tind Bari Tind ) Sharif brothers.
    As Edhi the most credible personality in Pakistan said. They all should work together to save Pakistan from outsiders.

  152. Salman says:
    August 18th, 2008 1:30 am

    @ Rizwan,

    “I still believe in Musharraf. Yes he has made mistakes but he is a good human unlike politicians.”

    So you mean to tell us that politicians are not human?

    For anyone that has served in the military, they can certainly attest to the politics that exist within the ranks of the military. So please come back with a better understanding of what you are trying to make a point of.

    For those that have not heard, President Musharraf will be address the nation later today. Lets see what his next move will be.

  153. Hilal says:
    August 18th, 2008 2:22 am


    -Zawahiri is blaming President Musharaf

    -People who were pressing the officials to take action against Lal Masjid problem now accusing President Musharaf for the operation by mentioning the innocent girls and people been killed (or Shahid according to them, without knowing the meaning of “Shahid”) and completely ignoring the weapons and armed militants and their forcing people to accept their own version of Shariah (its funny, when it comes to Islam no one stresses Quranic way of life, or say, “according to Quran”, but using the word “Shariah” which is mostly the ideas of individuals during different periods of time!

    -There were series of suicide attacks – has made the life like living hell in Pakistan – till election and the new government (anti- Musharaf ). But now? No suicide bombing (I am glad for that but we have to look into things objectively) even – there are severe operations going on in Bajuar and Swat – isn’t it interesting?

    - Mullah Fazal Rahman (I have intentionally written “Mullah” instead “Maulana”, in fact both are wrong – there was no mention of Maulana Muhammad PBUH or Maulana Abu Bakar or Maulana Umar!!!) of JUI ruling for five years in NWFP and let Mullah Fazlullah (the leader of Taliban in Swat) do what ever he wanted, collecting weapons, organizing force against the government, raising funds and giving safe havens to foreign elements (not to mention stopping girls from Schools and Polio campaign) and now Mullah Fazal Rahman supports NawaZdari in accusing President Musharaf for bad security situation in the country.

    - Take any newspaper in Pakistan and look into the editorials everyday. If you just (for a while) ignore the names of the writers, you will find maximum articles portraying the feelings of the extremists, Talibans and Al Qaida.

    A huge conspiracy is going on against President Musharaf at many fronts. One might be from AL Qaida – Taliban? For his crime of taking hard on militants, destroying their safe heavens, making it difficult to operate from tribal areas inside Afghanistan!

Have Your Say (Bol, magar piyar say)