Celebrate the Spirit of Sacrifice. Spare the Animals.

Posted on November 26, 2009
Filed Under >temporal, Economy & Development, Religion, Society
310 Comments
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temporal

Eid ul Adha is on or around the corner. I wish you all a safe, happy and fulfilling celebration with your family and friends.

All I ask is, please spare the poor goat or lamb or cow’s life. The purpose of sacrifice is to understand the spirit of parting with what you hold dear (your wealth), it is not some muqabla against four-legged animals.

Please pause and think … That, after all, is what religion should make us do rather than blindly following ritual.

According to the many organizations that will perform the sacrifice for you if you live abroad, the cost of one goat/sheep is US$ 160 in the US (that is more than one month’s salary for a college educated Pakistani professional). The price in Pakistan is cheaper, but not by much. Only the well wheeled can afford it. The Poor cannot even budget for a kilo of meat a month.

Is there a better way to ‘sacrifice’ the 150-200 dollars or the Rs. 10,000 or more in the name of Allah that is useful to His bandas? A way that captures the spirit of sacrifice that qurbani entails and helps us meet our religious obligation as well as the social welfare and redistribution that is its deeper purpose?

The Qur’an reminds us that Allah looks at intent not the blood. Maybe we too should pay heed to the intent of qurbani? For those who want to sacrifice this writer instead, please read Chapter 22, Verse 37 from the Holy Qur’an (I have looked at translations by Marmaduke, Yusufali, Asad and Usmani) and they all talk about your own devotion, piety, God-consciousness and taqwa that reaches Him.

The meat from the sacrificial animal is intended to be divided into three parts: 1/3rd each for your self, family and friends, and for the needy and the poor. I would suggest we fore go our share, and give the whole amount to the poor including poor relations. Charity and alms should be given throughout the year, and many people do. But with this added emphasis around Eid ul Adha I would suggest we consider giving more to the poor including poor relations.

Allah looks at intent not the blood. What better way to celebrate this Eid?

On my last visit I saw a lot of people drive up to a certain “hotel” (Pinglish for restaurant) and pay the owner X rupees to feed X number of hungry folks lined up outside. That is a noble idea. But would it not be better better to teach them to fish?

A manual sewing machine for a widow or unemployed poor woman? Tuition Fees or books for a poor student? Some money to ease the days for the unemployed people? A small monthly stipend to the poor that may bring a ray of hope in their lives and may perhaps deter them from abandoning their children to the fogs of terrorist factories?

We can think of many ways to make Him happy and spare the lamb. May Allah bless you and your family.

Note: This is based on an earlier post published on temporal’s blog Baithak.

310 Comments on “Celebrate the Spirit of Sacrifice. Spare the Animals.”

  1. AA says:
    November 26th, 2009 2:35 pm

    Wow,finally from the Pakistani side of the world, someone making a whole lot of sense.

  2. ASAD says:
    November 26th, 2009 2:37 pm

    Good point. I have always felt the same and I know many others do. More of us need to act on this principle. Given money and support to the poor that will really change their lives. That is better sacrifice.

  3. Meengla says:
    November 26th, 2009 2:44 pm

    Yes, please, no more sacrificing of these animals!!

    A very personal note here. Pardon for my over-emotionalism.

    During the last ‘Bakra Eid’ in 2008, I discussed the lack of spirituality with my father during the slaughter-time. I begged him to re-consider that and, silently, pledged to sever all ties should 2009 would the same as far as meaninglessly slaughtering goats, cows, camels, sheep…

    I expressed to him that it was brutalizing for me as a young boy to be encouraged to witness the slitting of the throat of a goat–who I had pempered only the night before–and to see the blood gushing out while the poor goat….He cried. I cried too. I stopped watching that soon.

    I hated that!!!!

    My father understood and agreed to my pleas but expressed his being powerless infront of the entrenched dogmas but promised to do something for 2009 if he could.

    My father passed away a few weeks ago. And the family in Karachi want to do that cruel thing at least this year despite my appeals. They say that at least one sacrificial goat is for my father’s salvation or memory. I disagree.

    Give the money to the poor, the needy. I know, there is whole set of counter-arguments about eating any kind of meat. But the senselessness, the lack of spirituality, the brutality during the Bakra Eid of sacrificing animals far outweighs –even- those arguments.

    PLEASE….can we stop this?!

  4. illusion says:
    November 26th, 2009 3:02 pm

    Great Article …

    On Eid, when anyone ll kill an animal by first trapping his/her feet with ropes, do look at the face of that animal, do have a look at the tongue on that poor soul which he or she is biting with his teeth to avoid the pain, do check the eyes of that animal, do see his/her tears. You, no matter how big ur heart is never be able to witness such act again, believe me u wont say Allah O Akbar at such barbaric act. And u know what once u start caring about these animals the value of human life, the value of human feelings, their emotions and tears become much more for u, and u ll start caring for them much more than u do before.

    Many argue that we eat meat, and these animals are going to get slaughtered in slater houses anyways, but that is different, at that point its not a religious ritual, its not a lesson for someone, there aren’t any young kids standing around looking at blood and barbaric-ism of human beings killing an innocent helpless animal. I feel so sad and concerned when i see on every eid when People are KILLING innocent animals openly on roads, many kids are standing around, looking and learning, this is the reason we have intolerance in our society. May sense prevail.

    Once again congrats for writing a wonderful article.

  5. November 26th, 2009 3:19 pm

    Having a piece of chicken tikka in mouth and making a post about “sparing an Animal”? Amazing my friend.

    I wonder where do all such “animal friendly” lectures blow away when people attend some fashion show or some music concert? Why does not people think of poors who don’t have a roti while having a dinner in some expensive restaurant?

    You need to clarify whether you are a person who never likes meat or it’s just another attempt to show off your irritation about a religion’s ritual.

    Oh by the way , should I say you,”Happy Thanks giving” and offer a turkey? ;)

  6. Ahmer Muzammil says:
    November 26th, 2009 3:23 pm

    I am a little perplexed, should we all become vegetarians? if thats not what you are saying then i am sorry i am missing the point. I appreciate the message that there should less indulgence but then this sermon should also be given to fashion show organizers, concert organizers, any and all extra curricular activities should be put on hold and resources should be diverted in elevating poverty and ill be all for that.

    We should also stop spending monies on building, maintaining mosques, temples, churches, synagogues and invest that money on public welfare as well.

    We should also ask americans to stop ‘killing’ turkeys on thanksgiving and while we are at it, if the world estab. can stop killing human beings by thousands every year and immediately put a ban on ALL manufacturers of ALL ammunition right awat.

    Putting ban on animal slaughter is a very slippery slope. again i am all for donating money so poor can enjoy meat but in essence you are questioning a very fundamental ritual of islam. Allah knows best

  7. Meengla says:
    November 26th, 2009 3:32 pm

    @Illusion’s post is powerful. Thank you!

    @Ahmer,
    I think you have completely missed the ‘brutalizing’ part of this debate. No one in America is out slaughtering their turkeys and encouraging their kids to watch that. @Illusion is absolutely correct in relating the lack of tolerance in Pakistani society with such brutal displays of ‘faith’. Also, from what I understand, even in the ‘bastion of Islam’ Saudi Arabia animals are slaughtered and skinned in front of houses while a bunch of kids watching it on.
    Don’t be an absolutist. For doing so would mean you may not even walk on this Earth lest you set you for upon an insect. But don’t take relativism to an absolute degree either.

  8. Rashid Ali says:
    November 26th, 2009 3:44 pm

    I totally agree that a more efficient, hygienic and modern alternate to the current method of Qurbani should be found where the meaning of Qurbani is expressed which truly benefits the poor all the year round rather than 3 days. I performed Hajj in 1990 and Qurbani voucher system was in operation. Process worked like this; You obtain a voucher after paying equivalent cost of a goat and identify the Hajji or one in whose name Hajj is being performed. Govt. slaughter house ensures that Qurbani takes place and Hajji’s name is mentioned when the animal is being scarified. This operation is performed by professionals and under hygienic conditions. You don’t get to see the Qurbani as it is done per a schedule suitable for proper freezing and packing of the meat which is then forwarded to poor Muslim countries. Why can’t we do this in other Muslim countries? In England, I saw a protest against such barbaric slaughter of animals on Baqr-Eid. Some videos were shown, secretly made, of Muslims making serious mistakes during the slaughter process and animals suffering beyond belief

  9. Gardezi says:
    November 26th, 2009 3:59 pm

    The real issue is also waste. Most of the money spent is for “show” and neither for poor nor for Allah.

    Even if people took that money and just bought meat with all of it at regular rates and gave all of that meat to the poor it will be better because the poor will get food.

    Bt like most other things this is now just dekhawa.

  10. Gardezi says:
    November 26th, 2009 4:00 pm

    Just after writing my comment I saw this older ATP post in RELATED POSTS section. Makes my point exactly

    http://pakistaniat.com/2007/12/23/ow-slaughter-price-inflation-pakistan-eid-qurbani-bakra/

  11. Abdul Hai says:
    November 26th, 2009 4:22 pm

    How you practice in this case depends if one believes in literal meaning of Quran/Sharia or Muqasid (purpose) of Sharia.

    Sponsoring a student at a professional college/university in Pakistan costs $300-$500 a year. Helping some one become an engineer or physcian in Pakistan for that money can help change the life of a family and generation in the future.

  12. Ahmer Muzammil says:
    November 26th, 2009 4:27 pm

    Meengla jee,

    i dont quite understand whether the rant is on islam being a savage religion or pakistan as a country not being able to properly manage eidu-ul-adha. If its the later i agree and i shall add that we are also not providing apt education, clean water, justice, public healthcare either.

    As for militancy is concerned, germany didnt celebrate eidul adha with same vigor however they slaughtered millions of jews regardless. When you have a perpetual rule of armed military in a country for 60 years then that sense of getting things done at the barrel of a gun trickles down. Its that phenomenon for the most part that is unfolding in front of our eyes in pakistan and not a by product of eid ul adha. Again i agree that i wouldnt want to be in a situation where i have to explain why someone is slaughtering an innocent looking cow and it should be done in a more hygenic and discrete manner but in context of pakistan..hazaroon khoahishein aysi kay har khoahish pay dam niklay.

    by the by there is an interesting talk by Dr. zakir nayik on veganism and what would happen if the whole world would become vegetarian, supposedly it would be bad for the environment and we would have cows and goats outnumbering human beings in alarming proportions. i dont claim to be a scientist, i just find excuses to have steak whenever i can

  13. Majid says:
    November 26th, 2009 4:32 pm

    First of all it’s very distrubing that writer did not mention his or her real name. This topic is a typical manifestation how people put their minds to get empirical ideas about religion. Qurbani is an act of earning virtue which has to be done this way. If you have money and you want to help poors, do it, but don’t equate/ replace it with the act of sacrificing. Difference between Qurbani and other virtues are taught in very basic levels of sheriah. It is not difficutl to understand the difference of earning virtue by sacrificing a goat and by helping a poor. Buy a quadruple as per sheriah rulings, and on the day of Eid try to sacrifice it with your hands, you will get to know some of the uncountable benefits of Qurbani. I don’t know how much empirical ideas can work for other religions but for Islam, we need to act upon it’s rulings and try to understand them rather than devicing empirical ideas for islam. We did the evolution like this in Physics. Where we gave the ideas some of which are now believed true and some false, but at the time of their presentation, they were Right. But we must not pust Islam to this process of evolution, rahter we need to put our minds in the poress of evolution to understand the rulings of Islam. We need to know the difference between Ijtihad and puting our minds in devicing empirical formulas for Islam.

  14. Mohammad Amjad says:
    November 26th, 2009 4:47 pm

    Can’t understadn the defensiveness of Majid and Ahmer. Religion cannot be against common sense, certainly not Islam. And Islam is very clear that the purpose is SACRIFICE – the purpose is NOT the murder of animals or showing off. It is to sacrifice what you hold dear. In this case money, really. And to sacrifice it so that Allah’s people benefit from your generosity in HIS name.

    There is no magic in what animal you sacrificed. They had camels in Arabia as the unit of wealth so they sacrificed that. if they had ostriches, then maybe they would have done that. If they had stocks and bonds then a part of them would be parted with.

    The point is do you do sacrifice because some jahil mullah is telling you to kill animals? Are you doing sacrifice so that the skins can be collected by jihadist moulvis? Are you doing sacrifice to show off to your neighbor how much you wasted on the animal? Or are you doing SACRIFICE to please Allah by making the lives of His people better and spreading the goodness that you have been blessed with.

    If you are doing it because of any of the first three reasons then keep bleeding animals. If you are doing it to please ALLAH then maybe rethink why you were asked to sacrifice in the first place and make sure that you sacrifice makes Allah happy by making your felling humans better off, esepcially the poor.

  15. Waqas says:
    November 26th, 2009 5:02 pm

    Sorry i am also little confused like Ahmer Muzammil and Adnan Siddiqi. For brutality done on road, how come it is ok if we brutally kill animal behind closed doors and eat it. I as a kid saw all those animals being scarified in front of me, the only thing we use to make sure is that it is done by professional and with sharp knife and by armatures and now we take it to the butcher shop where its done by professional who do that all year round. This qurbani is just to remind us that there were pious people of Allah who were ready to sacrifice their son in this way and today we are saying that just sacrificing an animal in the name of Allah is cruel. If you really think that than either you are a vegetarian or you should become one because even if an animal is killed behind closed doors its very cruel. Yes but at the same time I say that the qurbani should only be done by professional and only at designated places not all around the city.

    As for giving to poor, we should be doing that all year round not just on Eid. Not giving any thing all year round and then saying that on eid that we wil donate money and not sacrifice an animal I don’t agree with that. If Allah wanted us to donate money on this eid, He would have told us to do so. For this wid he wants us to sacrifice and animal and share it with everyone, that’s why three parts of qurbani so that very one feels part of it. I know in Pakistan some people keep all the good parts for themselves and the rest is distributed, that’s also wrong we should mix it all and then distribute so that we get the same that we are giving to poor and our relative.

    As for donating the money to poors, we should be doing that all year round, this sacfi

  16. Waqas says:
    November 26th, 2009 5:16 pm

    By the way does any one of you know how it feels like when even one around you, including you relative neighbors and all your friends, are sacrificing animals and you are just standing there because you cannot afford one?

  17. Majid says:
    November 26th, 2009 7:41 pm

    @Mohammad Amjad

    We do not sacrifice for all those purposes which you have mentioned here. The purpose for which we do sacrifice can only be achieved by sacrficing a quadruple as per sheriah rulings. This is not a place to teach you shariah, but if you have time, you can physically meet me in Lahore or otherwise I can give you some contacts in Jamia Ashrafia, Muslim Town Lahore, who can give you satisfactory answers. Or let me know you place I will try to find someone who could satisfactorily answer you. Currently I would only say that rather boggling your mind to interpret Islam as per your wit, try to increase you wit to understand Islam.

  18. Shoaib says:
    November 26th, 2009 8:33 pm

    I am kind of surprise to see that most folks on this forum believe that giving money to some needy is better than economic activities that generates opportunities for the poor. Eid-ul-adha is one of the very few financial transactions in Pakistan where actually money flows from relatively well of to relatively poor people. IMHO, More of these kinds of transactions, the better.

  19. shoaib says:
    November 26th, 2009 8:37 pm

    Waqas :
    And do you know how poor folks feel when they see you in nice cloths. Please do not tell me you do not where nice clean cloths :-)

  20. Waqas says:
    November 26th, 2009 8:44 pm

    @Shoaib, i agree with your first post and yeas i know who it feels to wear cheap cloth and when every one around have expensive designer cloths, that’s why still i don’t buy those expensive designer clothes because i would rather wear medium cloths and donate the rest rather than wearing expensive clothes and donate the rest so that someone else can also wear cloths. We need to think about poor when we are buying expensive clothes for ourselves and when we are eating at expensive restaurants and just when its time for qurbani

  21. Waqas says:
    November 26th, 2009 8:45 pm

    @Shoaib, i agree with your first post and yes i know who it feels to wear cheap cloth and when every one around have expensive designer cloths, that’s why still i don’t buy those expensive designer clothes because i would rather wear medium cloths and donate the rest rather than wearing expensive clothes and donate the rest so that someone else can also wear cloths. We need to think about poor when we are buying expensive clothes for ourselves and when we are eating at expensive restaurants and just when its time for qurbani

  22. Meengla says:
    November 26th, 2009 9:18 pm

    The way Bakra Eid is observed in Pakistan does not bring up any sentiments of ‘Qurbani’ (sacrifice). We all know that, don’t we? Then why by hypocritical about it and pretend that there is actually any ‘sacrifice’ going on? How many people really contemplate Abraham’s sacrifice when slitting a goat’s throat? And while we pretend to sacrifice we brutalize the society by open displays of crying animals bathing in their blood while being watched by kids. While we pretend to ‘sacrifice’ we literally let blood flows through our streets….

    Yes, it brutalizes the society and bringing up the hidden Nazi death camps into this debate really is not a valid comparison.

    There is nothing Islamic about it because there is no real sense of sacrifice involved. And there are other cleaner, better ways to distribute the wealth. So long as Pakistanis eat meat the goat herders will have their goats ‘consumed’ by the society. So long as there is money in a society it will find ways to be distributed in however uneven ways. Pakistanis are quite generous donors. They don’t need the hollow pseudo-Islamic spectacles of rivers of blood and brutalization to channel their donations and acts of charity to the society.

    Please…don’t be sanctimonious and turn this into an issue of Islam. It is basically an issue of sense and sensibilities once you realize there is no cause of Islam served by these so-called Qurbanis every year.

  23. Waqas says:
    November 26th, 2009 10:49 pm

    @Meengla, again if some people are doing it the wrong way it does not mean that the whole ritual is wrong, how many time you think of the poor when you are buying something luxurious things, we have been ordered to sacrifice an animal and we will do it, I agree that it should be done in clean and proper way, but if some people are doing it the wrong way it does not mean that we stop it all together, instead we should be telling those people how to do it. But qurabi on this eid should be there

  24. Haider says:
    November 26th, 2009 10:55 pm

    Are people even reading the article they are commenting on?

    No one is saying qurbani (sacrifice) is wrong or anything about Islam being right or wrong.

    What is being said is that killing animals is not the only way to sacrifice, it is better to give to better causes on Eid and think about the real spirit of sacrifice rather than ritual for its own sake.

  25. Lateef says:
    November 26th, 2009 11:11 pm

    there is no one called temporal. this is just owner of this site not having guts to put his own name behind this crazy idea. anyone who does not sacrifice animal is not a muslim. plain and simple. if you think animal should not be slaughtered you are not muslim. it is about sacrificing animal and you will be rewarded for the blood and the meat that you give in His name. that is purpose of qurbani. if you do not believe this you might as well be other religions because sacrificing animal is duty. Allah is not interested in your social policy or communist ideas and helping poors. he will see if you gave qurbani to Him and sacrificed animal in his way. Ideal is to sacrifice camel because that is what Prophet (PBUH) did, others are accepted as secondary only.

  26. temporal says:
    November 26th, 2009 11:31 pm

    mr/ms lateef:

    spare adil and owais please

    just follow the link at the end of the article:)

    here is the first quotation:

    The Holy Qur’an, Chapter 22, Verse 37.

    ****

    others who have commented…first thanks…responses will come later

    The[22:37]
    Their flesh and their food reach not Allah, but the devotion from you reacheth Him. Thus have We made them subject unto you that ye may magnify Allah that He hath guided you. And give good tidings (O Muhammad) to the good.Marmaduke

  27. Humaira says:
    November 26th, 2009 11:42 pm

    I commend the author and ATP for having this discussion. It is important to have because maulvis have made a mockery of this issue and turned this whole thing into a racket (this is a major money raking day for moulvis, including through collection of skins). Let us all look at the real spirit of sacrifice and focus on making Allah’s world a better place through our actions. All else is just ritual.

    Eid Mubarak everyone.

  28. Daktar says:
    November 27th, 2009 12:29 am

    Good post. It is high time that we seriously think about what we are doing and what we have lost. The purpose of this ritual is totally lost in all the show and the call to go back to the spirit of sacrifice, no matter what form it takes, is a welcome one. But I fear that most people are still too dogmatic about religion. These people who still cannot set a date for the moon on science and prefer to have mullahs “see” the moon for themselves are certainly not ready to adopt the rational approach to qurbani either.

  29. Aamir Ali says:
    November 27th, 2009 12:41 am

    @Mullah Lateef

    When i was in university I never sacrificed an animal on Eid-ul-Adha. Come to think I haven’t done it even after university, thinking its something I will do when I have a family and have reached the age when kids call me “Uncle”, so does that mean I am not a Muslim? No

    Your fatwa stands rejected.

  30. Sajjad Junaidi says:
    November 27th, 2009 1:34 am

    Temporal, I won’t say what a noble idea because idea was already there in the Quran we just don’t understand it, but will definitely thank you to bring it to the fore again.

    Imagine if all this money is used for charity to improve somebodies life. How many life can we change.

    I would also say that all those people who go to Haj more than once should think about donating Rs200,000 each time they want to perform Haj and Rs100,000 for Umra. Would they do it? No.

  31. Usman says:
    November 27th, 2009 2:25 am

    @ Temporal: Good idea but can you please explain why these kind of innovations are only proposed for religion.

    How about saving $ 160 dollars by now having couple of family dinners in restaurants ? or how about postponing some road trip ? or skipping a concert ?.

    Problem with us is that we are stuck between mullah and enlightenend moderates (who every now and then would propose innovations in religion based only on their instincts regardless of their knowledge).

  32. Waheed says:
    November 27th, 2009 4:33 am

    it can be applicable anywhere .. but definitely not applicable on Eid ul Azha, as per our religion.

    I think you need to take care of others faith before posting these self made rubbish ideas.

  33. Salman says:
    November 27th, 2009 5:50 am

    Well i find this entire article by Temporal and supporting comments by ppl like meegla extremely shallow. All that the writer of this post is proposing is to replace eid’s qurbani (which is an act of charity itself) with another charity (such as giving money / cash to the poor).

    Eid’s qurbani (if he is unaware so far) itself is one of the most valuable institutionalized charity in the world. One third of all animals slaughtered is reserved for the poor, some ppl give much more. These are the few days when poorest of the poor in our country, who would otherwise not be able to afford it, get to eat hearty lunches and dinners just like the rich do… why are ppl like temporal hell bent at denying them this too?

    with regards to other forms of charity such as cash etc. well no one is stopping us to indulge as much as we want. A better argument, as someone else also pointed out, would have been to cut out some useless cash spend such as buying a new suit, and give the money to the poor.

    And for overly sentimental people like meengla, (stop killing the animals, be sensitive to their pain, children witness this etc.) all that i want to say is that it’s not just on eid, animals get killed / slaughtered everyday, 365 days a year, all over the world. It’s immaterial whether you get to witness the animal killing or not. As long as you eat the meat or beef, you should know what would have happened for this meat stake to reach your plate. So either mr. / ms meengla should completely become a vegetarian, or accept the fact that animals get killed in exactly the way he/she so malodramatically described in some of the posts.

    There are around 5 billion meat eating people in the world, including not just muslims but also christians, jews, athiests and others. Man is a carnivorous being, and eats meat… whether you like it or not.

    Unless that you are saying that meat eating is fine, as long as i dont get to witness the animal killing, or as long as animal is not killed on eid??? which makes your argument even mroe shallow…

  34. jk says:
    November 27th, 2009 6:09 am

    Excellent post! and great points. People forget the true meaning of sacrifice and charity and instead feel good with themselves by taking the easy way out and killing an innocent animal.

  35. Ali Khan says:
    November 27th, 2009 6:51 am

    @MEENGLA: stop saying it brutality. if it were brutality, the Prophet(pbuh) did not sacrifice the animal. u know, after hajj that he performed in his last year of life, he sacrificed 100 camels out of which 67 he himself slaughtered. was he brutal?? (nauzubillah). when we sacrifice our beloved animal and feel sad that he is no more with us and then bear it patiently, we in a way pledge that we are ready to sacrifise everything for our Lord and His will. if slaughtering of animals were brutality, Allah(swt) would not order us to do that. this article is just bullshit, those who can afford to sacrifise an animal, they must do so because it’s wajib on those who can afford to do that. but we should not show off!! thus, we remember the practice of H. Ibrahim (A.S).

  36. Kasim Mahmood says:
    November 27th, 2009 7:02 am

    Good point Usman.

    How about giving up the ritual of circumcision and spending the few hundred dollars on the needy in Pakistan. Next, this “no name” writer is going to ask Muslims to forgo Hajj and instead spend the money on some one’s books or sewing machines.

    Please give us a break.

    BTW – how much do you spend on clothes that you really don’t need, food you can live without and other luxuries you waste on your self. First fix that and plenty of other things around your existence before going after Qurbani.

  37. Rafiq says:
    November 27th, 2009 7:30 am

    Very good points by the writer, thank you!

  38. Yaseen says:
    November 27th, 2009 9:52 am

    As-Salamu Alaykum to all friends

    Alhamdulillah, I am so happy to see the true spirit of Islam being discussed and brought out in this article by Temporal. Our beloved religion has been highjacked by those who have never read the Quran and never tried to understand its beauty. They follow the rituals as if that is what mattered, even though Allah tells us again and again that it is the intentions that we are judged on.

    Alhamdulillah, you are exactly right that there is no need for killing animals of wasting so much money on impressing your neighbors. Allah wants you to think of the suffering of His people and help them by sharing your wealth. That is the only true test of Muslims. The ayah you quote makes this very clear also, Alhamdulillah.

    I am very happy to seeing the true meaning of this day being discussed instead of some people and many mosques using this sacred day as a way to make lots of money for their own greed.

    Jazakallah khairan.

  39. November 27th, 2009 9:58 am

    Some comments from the ATP Facebook Page:

    - “I totally agree. Good article. The waste is tremendous. Most of teh cost is for show and much less than what the meat is worth to teh poor it is supposed to help.”
    - “Blasphemous !!!! :@”
    - “Yes, right! We have forgotten the lesson that H. Ibrahim(A.S) gave us. Istead, we buy the healthy and expensive animals just to show off! Anyway, we are Muslims and we have to sacrifice animal on this Eid if we can afford to do so but we should also help destitutes and should pray to Almighty Allah that may He show us the straight path! Ameen”
    - “NO, we do not have to sacrifice “ANIMALS”, we have to “SACRIFICE IN THE WAY OF ALLAH” that which we hold dear…. how many of you hold “animals” more dear to your heart than the money in your wallet…. sacrifice that which you hold dear! It will help your fellow men and please Allah!”
    - “If i agree to “what you hold dear” then i will have to sacrifice my parents because that the thing I love most!!!!!!!!!!! I agree its not about buying the most expensive animal and showing it off but we need to sacrifice an animal, if we can afford one. As for donating money, if we are just doing that on this eid and not the whole year round then that’s use less”
    - “Quit trying to make religion politicaly correct.You either believe or you dont!”
    - “We cannot change what the religion has told us.”
    - “Agreed with Munazza. Please refrain from trying to make a “must do” into a “can do” and then “can be avoided” situation.’
    - “I totally endorse the opinion…am delighted that there still are people in our nation who are capable of looking at the larger picture…hats off to the writer!
    For those whose religious sensitivities are hurt, it is essential to understand that this is just a piece of opinion, a suggestion to make things better in our social framework, and not an attempt to tamper with the religion’s adjuncts…The writer intends to highlight the need for stressing on the “spirit” behind a teaching of Islam and not just the “ritual”….I would like to add to the standpoint by drawing everyone’s attention towards numerous religious rituals that have been reduced to mere festivals, no one being bothered about how the message behind that should change an individual’s spiritual makeup….please take this in stride!”
    - “if the idea was somewhere near correct it would have been endorsed by Hazrat Muhammad (S.A.W.) himself. And as HE hasn’t done so, there’s no credibility or opinion whatsoever about it. An empty head’s a devil’s workshop think about better things and have a life.”
    - “the author need to refrain by putting self made rubbish theories onto a religion. you don’t need to innovate things out of the context.”
    - “yeah, right!! we must sacrifice an animal if we can afford to do so because it’s wajib and we can’t change religion with our own made theories. what Allah has ordered us, we must do that!!!’
    - “well for a second lets not get emotional and just think on what writer has written. We do not slaughter animals just because its an order. Today we do it to tell others how BIG we are.”
    - “hmmm if you dont have EMOTIONAL side for religion than whats in for saying we are BIG, why care :-”
    aint it dichtomy or what………………”
    - “What Sunnat they are following in slaughtering cows, goats, etc., by making their houses slaughter-houses for a day to eat and exchange lumps of flesh, whereas the prophet, Ibrahim, had actually attempted to sacrifice his son, a harram being, in compliance with the dream in which he is stated to have seen Allah ordering him so , not a goat to eat and share?”
    - “thats the thing we get emotional and we want others to know that feelings of greatness is also emotional. anyhow no offense eid mubarik. enjoy it in any way u want”

  40. Ali Khan says:
    November 27th, 2009 10:54 am

    @Salman, very nice indeed, i wanna ask a question from those who think animal slaughter is brutality, are the vegetables that we pick from trees not alive before we separate them from trees?? they are alive till we do not pick them from trees. so, isn’t it brutality??? if it is and we should stop eating vegetables as well, then what sould we eat??

  41. temporal says:
    November 27th, 2009 11:02 am

    Mohammad Amjad:

    well said:

    The point is do you do sacrifice because some jahil mullah is telling you to kill animals? Are you doing sacrifice so that the skins can be collected by jihadist moulvis? Are you doing sacrifice to show off to your neighbor how much you wasted on the animal? Or are you doing SACRIFICE to please Allah by making the lives of His people better and spreading the goodness that you have been blessed with.

  42. zia m says:
    November 27th, 2009 11:34 am

    Thanks for the article,it is breath of fresh air.
    All religions are based on myths,tradition and superstitions.
    For thousands of years human sacrifice was a noble ritual.We have come a long way.
    Wonder how many Muslims believe in evolution.

  43. zia m says:
    November 27th, 2009 11:42 am

    Ali Khan,
    Plants don’t have nervous system to feel any pain.

  44. Adnan Siddiqi says:
    November 27th, 2009 12:27 pm


    there aren’t any young kids standing around looking at blood and barbaric-ism of human beings killing an innocent helpless animal.

    @illusion: I think showing vulgar media Ads and programs on TV and exposing western culture will ruin our kids more than a slaughtered cow. Please do bring some good example rather illusory world.

    By the way people who are giving lengthy comments about Eidul Adha, do they give similar lecture to their Americans who recently celebrated Thanks Giving.

    On the other hand, the author of the post is not being able to clear his point of view by answering the questions asked by many people on this forum. Its quite like a Zardarish attitude , isn’t it?

  45. Ali Khan says:
    November 27th, 2009 1:55 pm

    “And among the sacred Signs of Allah We have appointed for you the sacrificial camels. In them there is much good for you. So mention the name of Allah over them as they stand tied up in lines. And when they fall down dead on their sides, eat thereof and feed him who is needy but contented and him who supplicates. Thus have We subjected them to you, that you may be thankful”.(22:37)
    “And to every people We appointed rites of sacrifice, that they might mention the name of Allah over the quadrupeds of the class of cattle that He has provided for them. So your God is One God; therefore submit ye all to Him. And give thou glad tidings to the humble,” (22:37)
    @m Zia, if u r a Muslim, u must have a believe on these verses of Quran!! these verses ask us to sacrifice animals and also make it clear that we can slaughter animals in order to eat their meat. now, do u think that Allah (swt) is brutal?? Nauzubillah

  46. Ali Khan says:
    November 27th, 2009 2:04 pm

    @temporal: we sacrifice animals in order to remember the spirit and practice of H. Ibrahim (A.S) and also because it is Wajib and Allah (swt) has ordered us to do so. we do not sacrifice it because Mullahs ask us to do that but because Allah asks us to do that. If these skins are utilised by true Jihadist like those who are fighting in Kashmir, Palestine etc against eveil, we will be glad to see that!! also, our religion commands us not to show off, therefore, we should refrain from showing off

  47. Aik Insaan says:
    November 27th, 2009 2:33 pm

    Well said. We Muslims have forgotten the big picture, and have gotten stuck in Wahabi doctrines. I have practiced giving to a needy person my qurbani money rather than try to flood the market with surplus meat, which mostly goes to waste. To each his own, as Allah knows ones “neeyat”. Peace.

  48. Natasha says:
    November 27th, 2009 3:28 pm

    I am assuming that the writer is a vegetarian.If he’s not – he’s a hypocrite.

    You can help the poor and give that sort of sacrifice at any other time of the year.This eid is for following Sunnat-e-Ibrahimi and I dont find anything wrong with sacrificing animals.

    And all those calling the goats and cows ‘poor’ – the plants you eat are equally poor (according to your own argument).Stop eating everything!Water and oxygen must be enough for the ‘kind-hearted’ souls.

    The animals are going to be fed to HUMAN BEINGS – they are not being cut for FUN.Please dont paint the ritual in a negative way.

  49. Natasha says:
    November 27th, 2009 3:31 pm

    Aik Insaan

    How does wahabiism come into the picture?As far as I know muslims for ALL major sects follow the ritual.

  50. AA says:
    November 27th, 2009 3:53 pm

    Could the author also mention how and where did the ritual of killing animals started for Eid-ul-Adha? Is it in the Qu’ran? The Hadeeths? These may be very basic questions but we should be able to identify the differences.

  51. razia says:
    November 27th, 2009 5:25 pm

    i congratulate the author for his courage to present a point of view that is contrary to one most harmful prevailing culture.

  52. Syed Ahsan Qureshi says:
    November 27th, 2009 5:25 pm

    Alhamdullilah, a great post. I appreciate your making us think about the real meaning of ‘qurbani’ which is sacrifice and not about animals or no animals. The spirit of sacrifice is the what is wajib the rest is ritual.

    Of course, for the Arabs a century ago, they counted wealth in animals so that is what was sacrificed. Today things are different and there is no need to do this necessary with animals. As long as the giving is in the name of Allah, and for the welfare of your community and to win the favor of Allah then in the eyes of Allah it does not matter whether it is oont or gaye or bakri. It is your sacrifice that counts.

  53. Yahya says:
    November 27th, 2009 5:38 pm

    My compliments to the author for raising this important but difficult subject. Of course practicing Muslims agree that the spirit of sacrifice is what is important. Certainly that spirit can also be shown through qurbani of animals. But for those on whom Allah has been kind can also show their generosity in other ways. Of course, Quran is very clear on this that neither the flesh nor the blood of the animals is what Allah is interested in. Allah wants to see our piety and of course Allah will reward it in whatever way the sacrifice is made. Of course if you spend your money instead of killing animals to help the needy and the poor, Allah will reward that too. Allah knows all and Allah rewards the good deeds in whatever way we make them.

    Thank you Temporal for writing this.

    Jazakallahul Khair

  54. S.K.W. says:
    November 27th, 2009 5:44 pm

    You are going to get all the moulvis after you.

    This siteh biggest racket and biggest pay day for the mullah mafia.

    The khall business is HUGE. Billions of ruppees. Ever wonder how extremists are funded.May be through your own qurbani ki khall.

    Of course the mullah does NOT want anyone to know what is really in teh Quran, they are just petty crooks making money through religion.

    Bhai, if you start giving directly to the poor and the mustehek, the poor will benefit and Allah will be happy with your taqwa, but the moulvis will loose their biggest earning day and they will be really really mad at you! And you do not want to make the moulvi mad. Allah is forgiving, but as you will see from their comments, the moulvis are NOT.

  55. Baber says:
    November 27th, 2009 6:11 pm

    hmm.I though people were sacrificing to stack their refrigerators with meat for the parties (dawatain) that last for weeks. I have lived in Karachi, and I was amazed by the amount of meat my neighbours had in their fridge. Very little or nothing gets to the poor actually. A few pieces of tongue and testicles (gross) of the animal did make it to my house. Almost every house sacrifice a goat or a cow excepts our cause we believed in the sacrifice of birds that don’t fly. I have also seen camels parrallel parked near some big houses. Oh one last thing ex-prime-minister Jamali was my neighbour. :)

  56. Four Legs Good, Two Legs \bad says:
    November 27th, 2009 7:13 pm

    We believe in sparing people rather than animals. Otherwise remember

    ‘A People is Upon You……who love death as you life.’

  57. Durrani says:
    November 27th, 2009 7:48 pm

    I do not agree with the post. Even if it s only ritual it is a good one because lots of poor people actually benefit (in selling the animals, in zibah, in distribtion). So, overall it does enhance the welfare of the poor.

    But I do appreciate the decent tone of the write and the polite words. We should be able to decently discuss these things without calling each other names of questioning each other’s religion.

    I happen to disagree with this position.

  58. Abdul Hai says:
    November 27th, 2009 10:55 pm

    We have to see if Qurbani in Pakistan meets the following criteria:

    Shari’ah is based on wisdom and achieving people’s welfare in this life and the afterlife. Shariah is all about justice, mercy, wisdom, and good. Thus any ruling that replaces justice with injustice, mercy with its opposite, common good with mischief, or wisdom with nonsense, is a ruling that does not belong to the Shariah, even if it is claimed to be so according to some interpretation.

  59. faran says:
    November 27th, 2009 11:01 pm

    For those who say we do the sacrifice because Allah has said so. Well this is a Wajib on the other hand Allah strictly forbade to lie, to cheat, to backbite, if i am not wrong Allah says if any person in 40 houses around you sleeps without food at night and you have eaten heartily your prayers will not be answered and there are many more basic Faraiz. Since when did the nation who cares least about the Faraiz began to give so much importance to Wajibs. We all know what our spirits are regarding these sacrifices. We all know if we are doing it for Allah or just to show that how great we are. We all know that we do it as a Wajib or just as a ritual. We know what our spirits are. And to Allah reaches the spirits (neiat) not the blood and meat.

  60. Obaid says:
    November 27th, 2009 11:37 pm

    Yaar, give in Allahs name whatever way you want. Animal sacrifice or money or whatever. The real think is your neeyat. If it is really for Allah it will be accepted and if it is for show it does not matter what sunnat you follow or not. Do whatever you want and then let Allah decide. As simple as that.

  61. Zafar says:
    November 28th, 2009 12:27 am

    I think there is great benefit in the sacrifice because also the people who sell these animals are helped and a whole sector gets resources. So lets also not forget that part of this.

  62. Adnan Siddiqi says:
    November 28th, 2009 1:21 am

    Such “controversial” posts by extreme wing of left can’t change the mind set of Pakistanis who do consider the religion larger than life. We have seen generations busy in babbling about religious issues but nothing happened at time. People and youth are getting more aware about Islam despite of infinite attempts of leftist radicals. Let me share an incident.

    Few weeks back I was buying french fries from a local stall. I saw a kid wearing shorts and modern t-shirts was also there. I saw a Miswak seller there. The kid bought one for himself and his mom was surprised why did he do so.I got curious because I was not expecting this from him. When I asked him why did he buy the miswak, the kid replied,”Aap ko nai pata kay ye sunnat hey”(don’t you know its a sunnah of prophet muhammad(saw))?

    So islam is penetrating despite of such efforts by so called modern souls. Secularism just can be imposed in dreams rather in reality and such incident just strengthens my point.

    have fun so called veges; I know you are standing in queue to buy naan so that you could enjoy it with kalejis

  63. Krishna says:
    November 28th, 2009 1:33 am

    Dear All,
    I am a Hindu Vegetarian, heartened to see that there are many Muslims who are saddened by the animal sacrifice. How one can kill innocent , speechless, harmless animals to please God? How God can be pleased with the blood of animals? I am sure it is a misinterpretation of Quran. There are many peaceful ways to please the God and help poor. The ritual started with Abraham, but Christians have abandoned it. In my view even killing animals for food also bad. Go vegetarian, plants don’t have central nervous systems to feel the pain!. And of course, to survive, we bring minimal violence to other creatures always. But keep it minimum. Hindus too do animal sacrifice which I strongly condemn. In US turkeys are slaughtered in millions. We need to be more spiritual, and Divinity has no place for violence. Violence is Satanic.

  64. Taimur says:
    November 28th, 2009 1:56 am

    I find it funny that people are commenting without even reading the post. There is nothing about vegeatrianism there nor about animal rights. This is about doing your duty to God and how best to get Allah’s khushnoodi. Do you get that by giving a khal to some mullah to make a buck off, or do you get Allah’s razamandi by really helping the life of a poor person. To me the answer is clear and is in teh Quran. Allah does not need the flesh or the blood of animals. Allah needs your taqwa. And if you help Allah’s people how could He not be happy with you. Like all of Islam, the concept of sacrifice is plain and simple.

    Jazakallah

  65. November 28th, 2009 2:04 am

    I strongly disagree with the post.
    Why spirit of sacrifice be revived on the expense of terminating the ritual?
    We say and think so much positive but regretfully, we remain less practical.
    What i would suggest or say in my professional capacity as a vibrant enthusiastic food technologist, I would say that this ritual should be turned into mega economic event of reforming livestock sector and development of (currently at nil stage) meat industry.
    Despite all civilization in place in Pakisani society, its sad to note that we were unable to add a systematic qurbani system,cleanliness, and true spirit of sacrifice.

  66. animal lover says:
    November 28th, 2009 2:28 am

    @Lateef(November 26th, 2009 11:11 pm) & other posters:
    Do you mean to say Allah is “blood-thirsty” or greedy of meat?
    Logical answer is a big No.
    Allah has created humans as well as animals.No one but only Allah has a right to take lives out of them.
    Why don’t we muslims try to cut the throats of our sons hoping that a lamb would die instead? Can a muslim woman give birth to a single baby lamb or a baby camel? Why have we hypocrites on our own replaced the “son” with the poor lamb? I just want an answer to this.

    Sacrifice is only symbolic, there is no need to show it off to Allah year by year or generation by generation.
    It simply means your and everyone else’s life belongs to Allah.

    Carnivores animals like lions,tigers etc. never kill animals en-masse in the name of religion or to dump their meat into fridges.They kill animals only for their survival. So any comparison/reference made by some other poster is meaningless.
    Continue misinterpretting the religion and keep on finishing Allah’s beautiful creations…Afterall its your own choice!
    And yes thanks to author temporal and other posters for open-minded discussions here.

  67. November 28th, 2009 2:39 am

    I strongly disagree with this post.
    Many people say prayers(Namaz) for show off or at expense of “time” (Time is money in this fast paced world) so should we quit saying prayers?
    Why terminate an essential ritual on the basis of point that its cruelty to animal or we should give money to poor.
    Sadly speaking, we are a bunch of extremist scoundrels not a nation ( having extreme thoughts either totally liberal,so called moderate or total conservative,totally positive thinking or totally sadistic souls). We have no rational thinkers among us.
    In my professional capacity, as young food technologist, I will suggest to use this event for economic benefit by developing livestock of the nation,meat industry and a proper clean livestock and its end use system.
    Cleanliness is half faith, but sadly, we scatter too much litter around….
    PS: For the people who suggest that we should set up fund for poor instead of doing qurbani,I would add this eid gives highest quality of protein diet to the poor (if meat reaches them) who are unable to have even 365 meals a year and rarely any meal with some nutritious stuff.

  68. Anwar says:
    November 28th, 2009 8:15 am

    It is one of the few acts that injects dynamics in the stagnant economy… Besides, a number of philanthropic organizations sponsor this event for the needy and that by itself is a good thing to do..

    This practice is OK as long as it does not put pressure on those who cannot afford…

  69. Meengla says:
    November 28th, 2009 8:39 am

    @Abdul Hai,
    “Shariah is all about justice, mercy, wisdom, and good. Thus any ruling that replaces justice with injustice, mercy with its opposite, common good with mischief, or wisdom with nonsense, is a ruling that does not belong to the Shariah, even if it is claimed to be so according to some interpretation.”

    Sums it up perfectly. Thank you!

  70. AHsn says:
    November 28th, 2009 9:18 am

    Somebody writes:

    “The real think is your neeyat. If it is really for Allah it will be accepted and if it is for show it does not matter what sunnat you follow or not.”

    If one’s neeyat (intention) is to help a poor but then he goes to the market and buys a bakrA to sacrifice; the poor goes without any help even if this sacrifice is accepted by Allah.

    The neeyat (intention) is simply a religious (Islamic!) excuse for inaction or wrong action.

    AHsn

  71. Qasim says:
    November 28th, 2009 10:30 am

    I think people are making very good point about the economic activity created by this ritual which is mostl benefitting the poor, even when the rich show off.

    Beyond that, I agree that as long as you give in the name of Allah it matters little whether you give through money or through animals. Those are just ways of giving, teh important thing is that we give!

  72. aziz ul qadir says:
    November 28th, 2009 10:42 am

    Islam encourages charity…
    Charity through money – Zakah, Sadaqa, Ushr, Fitrana
    Charity through free meals – Sadaqa, Kheraat, Qurbani (Eid-ul-Adha)
    Charity is encouraged through a month of fasting when we feel the pain of hunger of the poor when we fast.
    What is wrong in ‘Qurbani’ then? Islam demands spirituality, softness and sobriety while sacrificing animals otherwise He gets angry and may not accept your qurbani. Even it is ordered in Islam that knife should be sharp and qurbani should be expertly and quickly done so that animal would feel least amount of pain. So if people are doing it wrongly, why to condemn the act itself?

  73. temporal says:
    November 28th, 2009 11:36 am

    Durrani and taimur:

    well said and thanks:)

    [22:37]
    [But bear in mind:] never does their flesh reach God, and neither their blood: it is only your God-consciousness that reaches Him. It is to this end that We have made them subservient to your needs, so that you might glorify God for all the guidance with which He has graced you. And give thou this glad tiding unto the doers of good Muhammad Asad

  74. Ali Khan says:
    November 28th, 2009 12:29 pm

    @Temporal: after all it is wajib and we can’t change Allah’s order with our fallacious and own made theories. animal slaughter is 100% halal and whosoever has doubt can read the following verses of Quran and also tell me why the Holy Prophet (pbuh) slaughtered the cows and goats while he was the most mercifl and kind-hearted among all Humans??
    “And among the sacred Signs of Allah We have appointed for you the sacrificial camels. In them there is much good for you. So mention the name of Allah over them as they stand tied up in lines. And when they fall down dead on their sides, eat thereof and feed him who is needy but contented and him who supplicates. Thus have We subjected them to you, that you may be thankful”.(22:37)
    “And to every people We appointed rites of sacrifice, that they might mention the name of Allah over the quadrupeds of the class of cattle that He has provided for them. So your God is One God; therefore submit ye all to Him. And give thou glad tidings to the humble,” (22:35)

  75. Arsalan Ali says:
    November 28th, 2009 1:00 pm

    What is wajib is ‘sacrifice’ and that we shoudl do in whatever way we can. Also, the ayahs about the sacrifice of animal are not saying that the only way to do sacrifice is killing animals. That is just one way. It made sense in Arabia 1400 years ago. It does not make sense today. The everlasting message is about sacrifice and charity, not about how you give it. As long as it is for Allah.

  76. Adnan Siddiqi says:
    November 28th, 2009 1:31 pm

    Ali Khan sb, JazakAllah for sharing the verse which nullifies the intrpetition given by the author of the post

  77. Inayat says:
    November 28th, 2009 4:01 pm

    Others have already made the point clear and the Quran is also categoric on this.

    We are asked to sacrifice. That sacrifice can be in any way we want. Different people choose different animals and many choose to give money directly because that way the poor are helped most directly and there is least waste. Allah will reward for whatever we give and teh most we think about what will help teh needy teh most the more pleased Allah will be.

  78. Kashif says:
    November 28th, 2009 6:02 pm

    I do not know why there is so much debate on this and why people are getting so angry.

    The Quran is very clear on this. Allah doe snot need the flesh or the blood. He needs our taqwa. He will be delighted and will reward us if we give to the poor in whatever form we give. That is the point.

    That is all.

    Jazakallah for publishing this.

  79. Kashif says:
    November 28th, 2009 6:06 pm

    The only real path of hidayat is the Holy Quran itself. We need no other. And Quran is very clear on this.

    This is from MUFTI TAQI USMANI’s translation:

    “It is neither their flesh nor their blood that reaches Allah, but what does reach Him is the taqwā (the sense of obedience) on your part. Thus He has made them (the animals) subjugated to you, so that you proclaim Allah’s glory for the guidance He gave you. And give good news to those who are good in their deeds.”

    This is as clear as it can be. Animals or flesh is not important, our taqwa is.

    Jazakallah khair.

  80. Jawad says:
    November 28th, 2009 6:08 pm

    Even if it is just a rital, it is a good ritual and brings people together.

    Lets focus on bigger problems like the Taliban.

  81. ShahidnUSA says:
    November 28th, 2009 7:01 pm

    Sacrificing Lamb (food chain) is better than sacrificing Humans.
    It will make HER (Allah) happy.

    Eid mubarak

  82. Ibrahim says:
    November 28th, 2009 9:15 pm

    Of course, “only” Qur’an is mentioned here for guidance because we see that a lot of shariah comes from the orders of the Prophet (saw) [meaning ahadith] so it’s an easy way for munafiqs to still call themselves Muslims while trying to change the religion.

    The ahadith are clear that the greatest part of the sunnah is to actually spill blood of an animal. So, unlike some who do it’s better to actually slaughter than just donate money for slaughtering let alone donating money for some other purpose. Allah is al-Hakeem and so He knows best. And, He has legislated different types of charities (obligatory zakat, sadaqa, etc, etc.) and this ritual is also a charity.

    Never in 1400+ years has the quoted ayah been understood the way it’s being used here. You don’t know alif, baa of Arabic and want to deduce rulings based on translations? Why didn’t you consult the tafaseer, which mention the understanding of the sahabah, who obtained it through the Prophet (saw)? Of course, you won’t consult the tafaseer because they will not help you hide your hypocrisy.

    Temporal, ATP and friends of course won’t tell you the fact that the Prophet (saw) who was THE example of what Allah orders always always slaughtered an animal, like a camel, when a camel to Arabs was a prized possession and a very useful thing for a poor person…it could be his means of transportation, food (milk), farming tool, etc. Still, the Prophet (saw) didn’t just give away the money or a live camel; rather, he slaughtered it, ate some of the meat and gave the rest away.

    Come out the la la land where Islam is controlled by the morals and values of one’s our perceptions and of course of the West.

  83. M.I.K. says:
    November 29th, 2009 12:36 am

    I am very impressed by the civil discussion at this forum on even something so controversial. I do not agree with the author but an glad that he/she wrote this with decency and also the commenters for putting their views strongly but politely. This site should be congratulated for that. This also shows that the image of Muslims fighting over everything and getting personal in attacks and violent is wrong one and we can discuss things reasonably as we should.

  84. Musalmaan says:
    November 29th, 2009 1:06 am

    Let me be very clear that I do not agree with the suggestion in this post. I think that sacrifice of animals at Eid is a good ritual and has lots of virtue. Others can do as they see fit and Allah give give them jaza if their neeyat is true. But I will prefer animal sacrifice as is tradition.

    However, let me say that I find teh comment from Mr. Ibrahim to be deeply offensive. How dare you question that Islam is a religion controlled by “morals and values.” Of course it is. That is all what Islam is. And, yes, Allah is al-Hakeem, which is why what he says in the Quran is superior to everything. How dare you question the ayah in the Quran and call those following “only” the Quran to be munafiqs. Yes, I follow the Quran and it is “only” right path.

    Mr. Ibrahim’s comment is very offensive to Muslims and Islam and should be immediately removed.

  85. Israr says:
    November 29th, 2009 1:10 am

    Thank you Brother Kashif for quoting the translation from Taqi Usmani. He is a leading authority and the verse is very clear.

    Jazakallah for sharing it.

  86. JJ says:
    November 29th, 2009 1:48 am

    Makes a lot of sense to me.

  87. Adnan Siddiqi says:
    November 29th, 2009 2:25 am

    @Kashif, Temporal et all: If you guys would have bothered to read Entire verse then you would not have asking baseless question again and again and felt embarassement. The ayah(22:37) temporal mentioned to put forward his shallow argument. The ayah just before the mentioned one clears every thing.

    From 22:36


    “The animal offerings are among the rites decreed by GOD for your own good.* You shall mention GOD’s name on them while they are standing in line. Once they are offered for sacrifice, you shall eat therefrom and feed the poor and the needy. This is why we subdued them for you, that you may show your appreciation. “(22:36)

    then it comes 22:37 which the author has already mentioned. The verse clearly exposes those exhibitionist who spend millions in “janwar” rather than celebrating true spirit.

    Iqbal said somethng for Jahil Mullahs of his time. Today it fits well on our left wing psuedo-intellectuals.


    “Khud Badalte Nahin Quran Ko Badal Dete Hain
    “Hain Huwey Kis Darja Faqeehane Haram Be Taufiq”

  88. AHsn says:
    November 29th, 2009 9:12 am

    Charity

    Dear All,

    If there is an indidual in need, hungry or sick and somebody is in a position to help him then it is his moral obligation to help the person in need.

    Is it necessary to seek a Divine guidance for Why?, What?, When? and How?? If a man does need the guidance, he is not a human yet.

    “Morality is doing what is right, regardless what we are told; Religious dogma [Divine guidance] is doing what we are told, no matter what is right.”

    Charity is human morality.

    AHsn

  89. Viqar Minai says:
    November 29th, 2009 10:21 am

    It is bad enough that there are enough – much more serious – problems facing Pakistan at present. So it is bewildering to see that Muslims are intent upon manufacturing even more meaningless strife for themselves on top of what they already face.

    There is a very simple resolution for the argument advanced by this article and its supporters; those who are opposed to the practice of animal sacrifice on Eid-ul-Azha should simply stop doing so and spend their money in some other way as they see fit. Why get into a needless spat with those who would believe in the benefits of the established practice and prefer to stay with it?

    It is not as if the law of the land will put someone in jail if they did not sacrifice an animal on this occasion; so why all the fuss.

    Must the so-called liberated ones who are opposed to animal sacrifice be at other Muslim’s throats insisting that their way of looking at things is the right one and must be accepted and practiced by all? How does it make them any different from those who insist upon imposing length of beards on all men and tents around all women?

    Can we all grow up, please?

  90. Abdul bari says:
    November 29th, 2009 12:14 pm

    I am very glad you wrote this. We need to focus on th essence religion not just on ritual

  91. Ghazanfar says:
    November 29th, 2009 12:49 pm

    Dear Mr. Viqar Minai, no one is insisting anything, except some jahils who think their way is the only right way and everything else will make you a Kafir. Those of us who think that animal sacrifice is no longer teh only way to fulfil qurbani are only saying that there are other ways too. I am not ‘opposed’ to animal sacrifice. I just don’t think it is the best way today to fulfil our obligation. The only ones putting a gun to others are those who want as many muslims to be labeled ‘kafirs’ as they can.

  92. Ali Khan says:
    November 29th, 2009 6:00 pm

    @Ahsan Siddiqi: very nice indeed! JazakAllah! East or West Allama Iqbal is the best!

  93. Adnan Siddiqi says:
    November 30th, 2009 2:31 am

    our genius friend temporal came up with something so weird that I am just amazed and salute his knowledge. From his own site:

    http://tinyurl.com/yenhj2g


    22:37 comes after 22:36
    :)
    there is no compulsion … in religion

    A./c to our friend,since 37 comes after 36 thus 36 does not make any sense. In short he’s saying Quran contradicts itself.

    I am simply amazed. The society really needs to getrid of illetrate literates; be it they have beared and sit in some mosque or clean shaved blogging from some club.

    Thanks Adil n Owais bhai for introducing such gem of Pakistan. It was surely Pakistan’s best kept secret

  94. Faraz says:
    November 30th, 2009 3:30 am

    You could have made your point (the spirit of giving) without suggesting that we change a widely-accepted and key component of Eid-ul-Udha. Unless you are a scholar, you don’t have the authority to do that. You can’t look at the translation of a verse out of context. That doesn’t cut it. You need to get a ruling from scholars.

    And regarding ‘common sense’ arguments that some have made, I am afraid you are on very slippery slope. What’s next, we move Fajr times because it’s too early? Sounds like common sense right? May Allah forgive us.

  95. Fawad says:
    November 30th, 2009 3:34 am

    Interestingly, Mr/Ms Temporal will appear after few comments and encourage people who favoured his idea and will not address people who opposed. He is not answering questions asked by people opposing him.
    Looks like he himself doesn’t had clear point of view, and becomes excited when someone support him.
    BTW Any sensible person won’t agree to his baseless ideas. I am not clear why ATP needed to share this. Doesn’t make sense at all and I don’t expect this from Aadil.

  96. November 30th, 2009 6:12 am

    Eid-ul-Azha is not only related to the sacrifice of animals like goats and cows. It is a festival which celebrates the spirit of sacrifice. We should take some positivity and show the world that we will as a country not stand terrorism and how effectively we are fighting it. The media is a good medium to start getting this message across.

  97. Qurbani says:
    November 30th, 2009 9:04 am

    Please take note that sacrificing an animal on eid-al-adha is not a “ritual”. It is the order of Allah. I am not making this up. Its in the Quran (22:36).

  98. AHsn says:
    November 30th, 2009 9:21 am

    Dear Viqar Minai,

    In my opinion your following statement:

    “Must the so-called liberated ones who are opposed to animal sacrifice be at other Muslim’s throats insisting that their way of looking at things is the right one and must be accepted and practiced by all?”

    is unjust towards Libral Muslims (LM) and your sympathies are tilting towards the Islamic Muslims (IM). No LM is at the throat of any IM if he slaughters (sacrifies!) an animal. Any liberal will never limit the religious liberty of an individual unless it goes out of the religion. On the otherhand all the IMs are united in their orthodoxy to claim that their’s is the unique and only way to celeberate their obligations and all the Muslims (LM included) should do the same

    On the top of it they pretend to do it to help the poor. The two third of ceremonial meat goes to the family and friends to their feasting and only one third goes to the fasting poor. Also, the IL obtains a bonus from God for his after-life.

    This religious obligation is more selfish than generous. You may call it a religious morality but certainly not the human morality where all (generousity) goes to the poor.

    AHsn

  99. Viqar Minai says:
    November 30th, 2009 10:57 am


    Any liberal will never limit the religious liberty of an individual unless it goes out of the religion.

    Dear AHsn:
    This has nothing to do with my sympathies, since I am not demanding anything of either the “liberal” or the “Islamic” muslims. As long as the latter don’t go knocking on every door demanding that people sacrifice a goat, and the former don’t bring down a law banning animal sacrifice on Eid, I don’t have a problem.

    But do please tell us who will get to decide when it goes of the religion?

  100. Contrarian says:
    November 30th, 2009 12:41 pm

    @AHsn
    >>Is it necessary to seek a Divine guidance for Why?, What?, >>When? and How??
    Absolutly. Why is stealing wrong? Why is it wrong to lie ? Why is having sex with neighbour’s/friend’s wife is wrong?
    If you scratch the surface a little, you will find that all these prohibitions have thier roots in religion, be it Judaism, christianity or Islam. If we sideline religion there is nothing on the planet which is wrong.

    >> Religious dogma [Divine guidance] is doing what we are >> told, no matter what is right.”
    I have no idea which dogma you talking about in the context of Eid-ul-Adha.

  101. temporal says:
    November 30th, 2009 3:12 pm

    Briefly:

    Qur’an is a guide book. Allah encourages followers to seek guidance. If Islam is for eternity, then with the changing needs and times there should be a mechanism to fine tune the requirements.

    Since Allah encourages us to ponder and think, why should we abandon that invitation?

    There are things that are inviolable. They come under hudood. I am not suggesting changing the hudoods. That is not the intent of this article. But in other areas we must seek the intent and endeavour to follow it in our lives.

    There was no soft drink like Coke or Pepsi. Today everyone drinks it. Or, the salat time table that is framed in every mosque, that gives the prayers times for any day of the year. We do not employ the methods used by early Muslims for prayer timings.

    The dichotomy is so very obvious. The same learned people who in their mosques rely on these charts to inform us of maghrib or as’r prayers in turn stand up and throw those principles out the window when it comes to sighting the new moon.

    Finally, am not suggesting you do not sacrifice the animal. That is your prerogative. I’d you rather ponder and think the consequences of your actions and determine for yourself the intent of qurbaani and the end benefits. My intent is not to hurt your feelings.

  102. Ibrahim says:
    November 30th, 2009 4:14 pm

    temporal…let me clear your confusion because you’re clearly a very confused person.

    Yes, Islam, is for all times which means the orders of Allah and His messenger (saw) are to be obeyed at all times. The fundamentals of Islam aren’t some sort of programmable chip that can be tweaked based on changing variables. If this is your understanding of Islam, then stop talking about it because you know nothing.

    And, yes, when Allah says to ponder it doesn’t mean to find some “majazi” meaning that would negate the command of Allah Himself, like your “thinking” has led you to abandon an order to sacrifice in the Qur’an itself. And, with all this thinking you’ve doing has it never occurred to you that in 1400+ years people couldn’t see the true meaning of Eid al-adha. And, you don’t even know Arabic to understand the depth of Qur’an.

    You’re wrong…it’s not just the hudood that can’t be touched (not that the liberals have done so), but the whole of religion in its spirit and fundamentals remains unchanged and is off limits.

    What does Coke or Pepsi have to do here? As long as what you’re drinking is halaal Islam doesn’t say much else, whether that drink was invented yesterday or a thousand years ago. As for salat times, they’ve been developed based on observations of when dawn comes in, sun rises/sets and when the shadow grows twice the length, etc. And, that’s why the times don’t change from year to year. It’s not that the times have been arbitrarily picked or do not correspond to the actual physical phenomena like sun set/rises, etc, and can’t be verified by those who wish to look outside the window. Anybody can look at the time for sunset and look outside to see it’s indeed sunset.

    But, as for moon sighting it’s required that the actual moon is seen by at least two witnesses. This is what Islam says and thus this is why calendars for moon birth, etc. aren’t used because it can’t be verified by people. If moon sighting was as straight forward as sun’s movement during the day then using a calendar for moon sighting won’t be an issue because the dates on calendar could easily be verified.

    Nobody is suggesting that you’re suggesting we abandon the act of worship that’s the sacrificing of an animal on Eid al-adha. What people do have an issue with is your lack of knowledge of Islam coupled with the spirit to change its injunctions that are clearly mentioned in the nusus (text…i.e. Qur’an and the ahadeeth).

    Hence, I don’t think much of what I said will necessarily make you understand Islam because the problem isn’t in your head…it’s in your heart.

  103. Watan Aziz says:
    November 30th, 2009 4:43 pm

    Ibrahim, yes, temporal is very confused.

    But it has nothing to do with his heart. Lets not go where we do not need to go.

    Now, one minor clarification, since you allude that you “know” Arabic, where does it say “the actual moon is seen by at least two witnesses”?

    Also, while you are are it, is the word associated with crescent “shaha’dhin” or “na’zaran”? And could you share the meaning of the words as you understand them?

  104. Ali khan says:
    November 30th, 2009 5:29 pm

    Holy Prophet(pbuh) did not suggest or practice this, four rightly guided khalifas did not suggest or practice it, Imam Abu Hanif, Imam Shafai, Imam Ahmad bin Hanble, Imam Malik all did not suggest or practice it, Shah Waliullah, Sheikh Ahmad Sirhindi did not suggest or practice it, Maulana Maududi, Maulana Tariq Jamil, Maulana Taqi Usmani did not suggest it or practice it.
    But, since Temporal is suggesting and practicing this fallacy, we should do it as well!
    wat the nonsense

  105. Dilawar says:
    November 30th, 2009 6:57 pm

    Islam kay thekadar, like Ibrahim, will never be convinced. They even dispute Quranic verses as long as their own pir faqir has not said something. As Ibrahim says himself, for him religion is closed. Good for him, I say. But for us Muslims, Islam remains a vibrant religion that is as alive today as it was 1400 years ago. It fits in todays world as well as it did in the world of 1400 years ago. Islam is a modern religion that can deal with changing times – that is why it is eternal – it does not need people like Ibrahim to ‘confine’ and ‘defend’ it. Allah will do so Himself.

  106. Faraz says:
    November 30th, 2009 7:15 pm

    Dilawaar, we are not talking about “our own” pirs and faqirs here. Please read Ali Khan’s post before you. It rarely happens that we encounter situations where there’s no obvious guidance from Islam. But when it does there are rulings/fatwas from religious scholars (and no I don’t mean your average maulvees or pirs or faqeers or whatever derogatory term you can find). For the rest of us, it is a big NO NO to try to reinterpret Quran and Hadees. Can you imagine what that can lead to? Please use discretion when it comes to these matters.

  107. Dilawar says:
    November 30th, 2009 7:19 pm

    Faraz, I did read Ali Khan’s post. And he has a whole list of his own pir faqirs in that comment; Maudodi and his tolli. The Quran is clear on this, the Quran talks about the traitional say of sacrificing animals (which is Ok if hat is what you want), and then IMMEDIATELY the Quran points out that what is really important is not the animal but your piety and the thought behind the sacrifice. Because, as the Quran says, Allah is not interested in either the flesh or the blood.

    (Guess who IS interested in collecting and making money off the flesh, blood and skin!)

  108. Mike says:
    November 30th, 2009 7:37 pm

    temporal:

    I am reading comments about your article with some amusement.

    It took Christian world 1500 years (after death of Jesus) to enter age of renaissance the enlightenment

  109. Viqar Minai says:
    November 30th, 2009 8:37 pm

    Ibrahim, Ali Khan, and other pro-Qurbani lot:

    Let me re-phrase the issue a little.

    Are you demanding that people should be forced to do qurbani on Eid-ul-Azha (even if they do not want to)?

  110. Ibrahim says:
    November 30th, 2009 8:42 pm

    @Watan Aziz….

    First, when did I say I quoted a specific text about two witnesses. The number of witnesses varies. The point was that, yes, the moon is to be witnessed.

    Second, it should be shahida (verb) and not shaha’dhin (that’s not even a verb and not sure what noun you’re referring to). And, yes it specifically says “Shahida” in the Qur’an and the synonym of it is used in a shaih hadith which is ra’ya, the corrupt form of which exist in Urdu as “rouyat”, as in rouyat-e-Hilal committee.

    Now what??! I only reply to you so that others won’t think I’m just blabbing like temporal.

  111. Ibrahim says:
    November 30th, 2009 8:55 pm

    @Viqar….just saw your comment

    It’s asking as if people should be told to pray or give zakat. If qurbani is obligatory then it should not be omitted by those who can afford it. But, it wasn’t me or somebody else who published an article on ATP asking people to do qurbani. Rather, temporal with all his limited knowledge decided to tell us what Allah really wanted since the Prophet, the sahabah, the first three generations, the rest of the scholars couldn’t come upon this simple understanding of qurbani.

    It’s this spirit that is being condemned as you can read from Adnan’s or Ali Khan’s or Faraz’s comments.

  112. animal lover says:
    November 30th, 2009 10:56 pm

    @Dilawar : (November 30th, 2009 7:19 pm)
    Thanks for very good reply.
    Animal sacrifice may have been necessary when in those times in Arabia,much of food-dependence was on animal meat because of less cultivation etc.Then,this ritual may have ensured that poor might get meat to eat like the rich ones.
    Nowadays, there is no such complusion that only animals meat is your food 24×7/365 . Hence, killing poor animals in unnecessarily large numbers just to say that the meat would be shared among “poor” friends & relatives is totally uncalled for.Someone rightly pointed out that fridges of “poor” appear small to house large meat stocks. Is this these sacrifices are meant for, or is this the spirit behind qurbani?

    Howsoever one may interpret- “JM” way or “LM” way,simply put, 1400 years ago killing animals was a necessity hence it was linked with this ritual, today it is not. Remember with every slaughter, you are taking life off a precious living being created by Allah.Consider the mass scale throughout the world and if animals are unnecessarily killed in this way, what’ll happen in the years to come? Pls for Allah’s sake, do not disturb and overpower the cycle of nature.
    I specially liked this tagline by some poster in some other forum :”… Look through the eyes of an innocent animal being sacrificed in the name of religion and you’ll know how terrorism really looks like” .

    One more thing – of the economics someone had pointed out. My claim is that one-day show of so-called pity/help towards poor is real contributor to inflation in rest 364 days. This is like taking all eggs from the stomach of a hen in one instance.After killing so many animals in one go, there becomes perpetual scarcity of animals because of which meat prices have to be high-always out of reach of really poor (and not the fridge wale poor!) :)
    In my view, alternative ways to financially/socially help really poor as suggested by temporal is the need of the hour. This would be our true sacrifice to Allah.
    Thanks.

  113. MUSSALMAN says:
    December 1st, 2009 12:09 am

    Yaar Ibrahim, khuda ka khouf karo!!!!

    Here is what YOU said:

    “But, as for moon sighting it’s required that the actual moon is seen by at least two witnesses. This is what Islam says and thus this is why calendars for moon birth, etc. aren’t used because it can’t be verified by people.”

    In YOUR very next comment YOU say:

    “The number of witnesses varies. The point was that, yes, the moon is to be witnessed.”

    Bhai. kitna jhoot boolo gay?

    What are the other things you are lying about?

  114. MUSSALMAN says:
    December 1st, 2009 12:12 am

    @Ibrahim.

    What is the point even in arguing with someone who actually thinks that the bird of the new moon cannot be calculated (tell that to your Saudis too, please)…. I guess you also think that the earth is not round and it rotates around a tamatto!

    It is Muslims like this that give Islam a bad name when they defend their own ignorance in the name of religion.

    Khuda humain jahilouN say bachai.

  115. Adnan Siddiqi says:
    December 1st, 2009 12:39 am


    Are you demanding that people should be forced to do qurbani

    @Waqar: Atleast not me. What all is being condemned that Jahil mullahs of both right and left side always try to contradict Islam one way or other by giving their own meaning of the verses. the current attempt is one of the classic examples. One is free to reject Islam as a religion or call it false and follow what he/she wants but “polluting” a religion just to sake shelter of it is not appreciable and its quite a coward act.

  116. Ibrahim says:
    December 1st, 2009 12:43 am

    @”Mussalman”

    If you think I’m lying just get whatever I say verified by a scholar. If I’m wrong I’ll gladly change my opinion unlike those who advance non-Islamic ideas based on desires.

    The point about moon sighthing was that witnesses are required. Also, how did I contradict myself?? AT LEAST two witnesses means that the number of witnesses can change. The requirement of having at least two is what I remember. Since you’re so concern about my lying please go ahead and prove me wrong. If you provide an authentic source stating one is enough, I’ve got no problem with it. But, no authentic source will say that you can base moon sighting on a calendar. That’s for sure.

  117. Adnan Siddiqi says:
    December 1st, 2009 12:46 am

    For temporal et all who believes in that “brutal” sacrifice is part of Islam, they should enlightened themselves by reading the following:

    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_sacrifice

    The amazing thing is that Hindu belief encourages scarification of goat and horse.

  118. Faraz says:
    December 1st, 2009 1:19 am

    @Viqar who said:
    “Ibrahim, Ali Khan, and other pro-Qurbani lot:

    Let me re-phrase the issue a little.

    Are you demanding that people should be forced to do qurbani on Eid-ul-Azha (even if they do not want to)?”

    Of course not. I can’t speak for others, but what I am saying is that any random person should not start publishing his opinion about what certain Quranic verses mean and suggest that we change something that was the way of the Prophet (pbuh), the sahabah, the four imams and notable scholars after them. In other words, we need to exercise caution and stay clear of bid’at.

  119. Irum says:
    December 1st, 2009 3:05 am

    I am glad you have raised this issue. I think we should consider this seriously as a way of meeting our religious duty of sacrifice but in a way that makes sense in today’s world.

  120. Rukhsar says:
    December 1st, 2009 6:47 am

    @animal lover,
    Great point.
    I totally agree that today animal sacrifice is uncalled for.Their are better ways to prove that your life is for Allah.
    Today Animal Qurbani is nothing more than mere show-off. As you say, the meat is going to “Fridge wale poors”. Very entertaining narration by you.Thanks animal lover.

  121. animal lover says:
    December 1st, 2009 7:16 am

    @Adnan Siddiqi (December 1st, 2009 12:46 am)
    An excerpt from your quoted wikipedia link :
    “Today much of the urban Hindu community disapproves of animal sacrifice, which has been phased out in many urban areas.”
    FYI, in fact animal sacrifice in temples is legally banned in India though still not in Nepal.
    But pls do not make it Pak vs India or Islam vs Hinduism issue, and let us not deviate from the original topic : “sparing the lamb on Eid : whether to sacrifice animal or not”.

  122. No Hajj says:
    December 1st, 2009 8:34 am

    I think this is a great discussion. It has led me to realize that I might have made a mistake personally in my life. I will admit that I followed temporal’s analogy, not qurbani, but in another Islamic “thing”. After reading this discussion, and doing some research, I realized that I might have made a mistake. I don’t regret it, as my heart was at peace, but I think I will not do it again.

    Keep it up ATP.

    Do not take offense of my comments below. It is just to show that how easy it is to bend the rules of Allah to our liking. It is clearly narrated in Quran that do not test limits set by Allah. I do not know the exact ayat and surah where this is mentioned, but I am sure you can find it.

    Here is another “modern islam” idea…. whats the use of hajj… all the rich people do it spending around US$4,000 to US$10,000 per person. About 1.5 – 2 million rich people (who can afford) do it every year. That averages to about US$12.25 billion every year that is spent on Hajj!!!.
    Now using the same analogy that temporal and others have been giving…. qurbani is in the heart, poor need money not meat and save the animals blah blah…. then this “ritual” hajj should be stopped, as it is the person who does it, soley does it for the beneift of himself (getting all sins washed etc.). Plus you pay a hefty amount just to run around a bunch of places anyway. Why not give this US$12.25 billion every year to the poor. If we do that then there will be no poor left in the world… plus the animals will be saved (which is the ultimate goal, even higher than helping poor). Allah did say in the Quran that what matters is in your heart and this saying can be used to not follow what else is in Quran … as interpreted by our friend.
    Hey while we are at interpreting Quran…. namaz is also a waste of time, as it also does not benefit anyone except the person performing it… we could spend that time helping the poor and saving animals… Allah will be more happy then.
    Lets see what else can we find in the Quran that we can skip and use it to help poor people and animals…. I bet we can find a whole lot more if we use the analogy presented in this article, and as mentioned above… performed by myself.

  123. No Hajj says:
    December 1st, 2009 9:11 am

    After posting my comment below, I realized that there are some things to be cleared so that people can have a better understanding from where I am coming.

    Ok, from my name it appears that the Islamic “thing” that I skipped is the Hajj. Actually it was Umrah. I had promised Allah that I would perform Umrah, all my paper work was ready but I had not bought the tickets yet. And then the Swat operation started. I thought (using the analogy presented in the article), that those displaced poor people need more help than my performing Umrah (for my benefit), so I gave the money to the refugees. Seems like a noble act indeed.
    After reading this article and the discussion, I realized that my decision to not perform Umrah and giving the money to the sawat refugees might not have been pure. I think it was tainted by the fact that in some corner of my mind/heart, I was thinking about the hardship I will face travelling to Pak then to Saudi and back to Pak, and the hardship of performing Umrah in huge crowds with two little kids.

    I broke my promise with Allah, may Allah forgive me for that. I guess now you will undersatnd my point of view… it is easy to bend the rules of Allah in the name of helping poor thinking our intentions are pure. but usually there is always something in us that wants us to bend that rule for our own good/liking. The analogy I mentioned about Hajj in the previous comment was a result of my mistake above.

    Thank you for being patient with me.

  124. Need food says:
    December 1st, 2009 9:43 am

    Dear Animal lovers,

    I think you are mistaken in assuming that in this modern era people do not need food or meat. Please visit the website of United Nations program called World Food program (http://www.wfp.org/). Please look at the stats under http://www.wfp.org/hunger/stats.
    Even in USA and Canada there are millions of children that go to sleep hungry at night. You can get the statistics by googling it.
    This food/meat from the qurbani gives those hungry people some good dishes to eat. The qurbanis performed at hajj are not made in three portions. Everything goes to the poor around the world.

    I would rather have a whole species of an animal wiped out then let a child die of hunger… that child could be mine! If this makes me cruel, then so be it.

  125. Viqar Minai says:
    December 1st, 2009 9:55 am

    @Ibrahim, Adnan, Faraz & others:

    Thanks for clarifying your views in this matter, which are similar to my own.

    I like to go back to my original assertion that there are enough other crises facing Pakistan, that need our energies, for us to manufacture additional non-sensical issues where none exist.

  126. AHsn says:
    December 1st, 2009 9:59 am

    Dear Viqar Minai,

    I am glad to read your statement: “ As long as …don’t have a problem”. (your post dated November 30th, 2009 9:21 am)

    It appears that both of us are in favour of individual freedom. Now your question is: “But do please tell us [know] who will get to decide when it goes [out] of the religion?”

    In a Secular State this freedom is guaranteed by the State’s constitution and a court decides who has gone out of his boundary. This guaranty can not be given in any religious state where the religion is the law of the land. Any Islamic State will be void of this individual freedom.

    Pakistan is, “Islamic Rebublic of Pakistan” without any “republic” in it. Pakistan has an Islamic constitution and any law has to be in the boundary of Islam. So, in Pakistan the Islamic Muslims have all the rights and Liberals are simply tolerated. The future of liberals (seculars) is not very bright in Pakistan.

    Regads.

    AHsn

  127. Ali Khan says:
    December 1st, 2009 11:20 am

    @Mr. Dilawar: it is your statement:
    “Faraz, I did read Ali Khan’s post. And he has a whole list of his own pir faqirs in that comment; Maudodi and his tolli.”

    Mr the names which i mentioned were not of any pir faqir, those were and are the researched scholars who have explained Islam. ok, if u do not like Maulana Maududi, leave him and even if u don’t like Maulana Tariq Jameel and Maulana Taqi Usmani, leave them. wat abt other names that i mentioned?? do u think that Shah Waliullah, Sheikh Ahmad Sirhindi were pir faqir or something like that?? u do because that is ur statement. ok, do u even think that Imam Abu Hanifa, Imam Malik, Imam Shafai, Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal who clarified and explained the religion were pir faqir or something like that?? u do because that is ur statement. ok, leave all of them, do u even thin that our Holy Prophet(pbuh), the best man among all humans was pir faqir(nauzubillah)?? u do because that is ur statement!! i would simply say “think before u act”!!!
    now, a very good point is raised by “No Hajj” that should we even leave our prayers because that’s the wastage of time and we have to give time to poor and needy?? because Allah(swt) does not want our prayers, what he actually wants is piety and credence in his powers!! the answer must be “no”. then what’s nonsense is this to ask people “spare animals and give directly ur money to poors”.
    thirdly, i again want to ask, do u people find any example from our ancestors (the names which i mentioned in my last comment) when they spared animals and gave their money directly to the poors?? no, u can’t find any example. we are urdu speaking people while Quran is in Arabic. so, it happens many times that some verses of Quran look embigous and we get confused. if it happens, we should apply this rule “hukum Allah ka, Tareeqa Rasul(pbuh) ka(order of Allah, practice of Prophet(pbuh)”, now, it is clear that Prophet did not suggest it or practice it. if u r still confused, then see the practice of Companions of Prophet(pbuh), even they did not suggest or practice it. if u r still confused, then take guidance from researched schlolars like Imam Abu Hanifa,Imam Malik, Imam Ahmad Bin Hanbal, Imam Shafai. neither they suggested or practice it. now, who the hell we are to change this order of Allah with our will!!

  128. animal lover says:
    December 1st, 2009 11:27 am

    Dear Need food (December 1st, 2009 9:43 am):
    Ever heard of something called milk?
    Perhaps you have, but sadly generations to come might never know of it, thanks to rampant killings of whole species of cattles, which you’ve vociferously vowed to wipe out and make extinct for the sake of meat.
    However, let me relevantly quote the importance of milk as food from wikipedia at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milk
    “The animals dairying proved to be a more efficient way of turning uncultivated grasslands into sustenance: the food value of an animal killed for meat can be matched by perhaps one year’s worth of milk from the same animal, which will keep producing milk — in convenient daily portions — for years.”
    As I said in one of my previous posts, either take an egg daily from a hen or cut its stomach to take all at one go…
    Choice is always yours.

  129. animal lover says:
    December 1st, 2009 11:40 am

    Dear Need food,
    One more thing, no offence intended please :
    In your post, you have indicated that a starving child is dearest to you and to save him, you can go on eliminating even whole species…etc.

    But do not forget that since Allah asked Hazrat Ibrahim to sacrifice His dearest thing. Likewise,given that your dearest thing is human child;What will you sacrifice on Eid next year?

  130. temporal says:
    December 1st, 2009 12:00 pm

    Adnan:

    Since you mentioned my name, please produce a quote from me that alludes to your imagined quote

    For temporal et all who believes in that “brutal” sacrifice is part of Islam..

    Otherwise, please refrain from misquoting or twisting words. thanks

  131. Need Food says:
    December 1st, 2009 12:36 pm

    Dear Animal Lovers,

    Sacrificing of animals has been going on since forever. Are goats, sheeps, cows, camels in danger of extiction now? or anytime soon? If we keep sacrificing them this way, will they become extinct? I dont think so.

    For your other question… thats why I am not a prophet.

    On next Eid I will sacrifice an animal.. as that is what Allah has commanded me to do in Quran 22:36.

    I think I will sacrifice a goat. I personally like goat’s meat over sheep’s. Sheep’s meet is a bit more fatty. You should try goat meat… it is tasty….. mmmmmm… roasted goat leg… thats the best, my mouth is full of water now…

  132. Adnan Siddiqi says:
    December 1st, 2009 1:55 pm


    I had not bought the tickets yet. And then the Swat operation started. I thought (using the analogy presented in the article), that those displaced poor people need more help than my performing Umrah (for my benefit), so I gave the money to the refugees

    @No Hajj: That’s the most wonderful thing you have ever done in life that you donated money for Sawat victims. I am no scholar at all but I think that there is a clear difference b/w farz(obligatory) and nafil prayers. Hajj is Farz while Umrah is not so you can skip.

    @Temporal: As you yourself said:


    spare the poor goat or lamb or cow’s life.

    I wonder why are you even forgetting what you said yourself above? Are you not showing “Sympathy” for those “poor” Animals because we go violent against them. It’s amazing that a person who’s misquoting and misinterpreting Quran accusing me to misquote him.

  133. MQ says:
    December 1st, 2009 3:07 pm

    While the story of Qurabani is still active, its best to check the original source first and then discuss it and put our respective spins on it.

    The story is mentioned both in the Bible and the Koran. Both stories are similar except that in the Bible it was Issac who was to be sacrificed and in the Koran it was Ismail.

    In the Bible, the story ends with Issac on the ground ready to be sacrificed, and God commanding to Abraham that his sacrifice had been accepted and he should instead sacrifice a lamb. On the other hand in the Koran, the story ends with Ismail on the ground and God telling Ibrahim that his sacrifice had been accepted. Period. There is no mention of the Bakra or any animal.

    This bakra came later in the picture, I don’t know, when or from where.

    So, these are the facts; now you may wish to pound them.

  134. Faraz says:
    December 1st, 2009 4:37 pm

    @MQ
    This ayah has been quoted multiple times already in this discussion. But here it is again:

    “The animal offerings are among the rites decreed by GOD for your own good. You shall mention GOD’s name on them while they are standing in line. Once they are offered for sacrifice, you shall eat therefrom and feed the poor and the needy. This is why we subdued them for you, that you may show your appreciation.” (22:36)

    Not sure what you are implying when you say “bakra came in later.”

  135. Watan Aziz says:
    December 1st, 2009 5:11 pm

    MQ,

    Where in Qur’an does it mention the name “Ismail” with reference to this story?

  136. MQ says:
    December 1st, 2009 5:33 pm

    Faraz: We are talking in a specific context — that of Ibrahim and Ismail. What you are quoting is a different and general context.

    Watan Aziz: I think you are probably right. I was quoting from memory. In wich case it opens a new door for controversy. Let’s see, the Mualans of might throw some light on this.

  137. Basit says:
    December 1st, 2009 6:48 pm

    But cattle is bred solely for the purpose of food. So I don’t see what’s the issue?

    The author seems to have no mercy on the goat 362 days of the year but is crying about saving the animal three days. All the qurbani meat is used as food any way as it would have been used if the bakra was slaughtered on a day other than Eid. If you would like to see the bakra reach the age of retirement and die of old age “naturally”, you’re living on another planet. Remember, its food.

  138. animal lover says:
    December 1st, 2009 7:02 pm

    @Basit:
    “If you would like to see the bakra reach the age of retirement and die of old age “naturally”, you’re living on another planet. Remember, its food.”
    How about replacing bakra here with man.
    On our planet do live lions and tigers for whom human flesh also is a good food!! :)

  139. Watan Aziz says:
    December 1st, 2009 9:15 pm

    MQ,

    I have spent the last 15 years unlearning Islam of the ignorant Mullahs. Don’t hold your breath.

    If there is one thing that is quite evident from this post, we know very little what the Qur’an really says.

    We either practice the faith of our fathers or offer irrational ideas and unsound arguments.

    Miles to go before we sleep.

  140. "Dil-Sooz" says:
    December 2nd, 2009 12:24 am

    My understanding is that unlike other faith traditions in Islam emphesis is on sacrifice and not on object of sacrifice. We do not have any festival sanctioned by Quran or Hadith for “certain religious personality”.
    Both festivals of Islam Eid ul Fitar and Eid Ul Adha are for thanking Allah through extra-non obligatory (Nawafil) prayers to thank Him for giving us the ability to sacrifice.
    On Eid Ul Fitr we rejoice overcoming and killing of our “inner animal” which lives on food and procreation. On Eid ul Adha we sacrifice visible animal as reminder to us that we should be ready to sacrifice our “inner animal”.
    What is this so called “inner animal”?. Sigmund Freud called it as “Id” or primitive animalistic drives. Quran has given superior concept and called it “Nafs-Immara”. I would like explain more on this subject as an article–if given a chance by ATP admin.

  141. Farrukh Shahbaz says:
    December 2nd, 2009 4:30 am

    Here are some interesting facts to ponder on

    ______________________
    Source: http://www.scribd.com/doc/2606654/mcdonalds-burgers
    By 2005 McDonalds have sold more than 100 Billion hamburgers and still selling @ 75 hamburgers per sec (2.3 billions per year). This is equivalent to 10 millions cows slaughtered every year. May be whenever we have a desire to eat McDonald, we should think of poor and donate the money to needy. Can we make such a small sacrifise to please Allah?

    _______________________
    Souce: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slaughterhouse
    In the United States, around ten billion animals are slaughtered every year in 5,700 slaughterhouses and processing plants employing 527,000 workers. In 2007, 28.1 billion pounds of beef were consumed in the U.S. alone. In Canada, 650 million are killed annually. In the European Union, the annual figure is 300 million cattle.

    ________________________
    source :http://www.scribd.com/doc/16103366/Halal-The-most-humane-slaughter-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhabihah

    According to research conducted at school of veterinary medicine by Professor Schulze Islamic way of slaughtering the animal is the most humane and painless method.

    ________________________

    An obvious question here is why all this cattle are not extinct even after slaugheting billions of them every year? It is also worth pondering that in Mecca which is devoid of any vegetation cattle still survives and flourishes in such huge numbers that every year inspite of slaughtering in huge numbers they are never short. I believe this is the result of the prayers of Prophet Ibrahim as mentioned in Quran to make this region self sufficient in meat and water.

    We can very well imagine the millions of people linked to cattle industry. Cant understand why we want to make millions jobless and make them dependant on our sadqas and zakats? As regards to qurbani skins, no one forces us to give them to Madrassas or Mullas. Personally, I owe it to my laziness in properly disposing the skin, I give it to anyone who comes first to pick it up. Can’t blame anyone else.

  142. sara says:
    December 2nd, 2009 5:58 am

    if we folow the writer`s suggestion than there would be no religious festival left to celbrate to its full spirit. I am sick of peole including the author of avioding to participate in religious festivals and encouraging others to interpret islam in a way to opt out of almost every religious festival. I understand you have saved money on slaughtering the animal what did you do with that money . How did you secrifice? what were your intetions? Atleast people who are sluthering the animals would distribute the meat to someone who have never tasted meat all year long. we spend a lot of money on other material things its okay once a year to spend that money on slaughtering an animal and give poor people a taste of meat.

  143. Ali Khan says:
    December 2nd, 2009 7:05 am

    i again want to ask, do u people find any example from our ancestors (the names which i mentioned in my last comment) when they spared animals and gave their money directly to the poors?? no, u can’t find any example. we are urdu speaking people while Quran is in Arabic. so, it happens many times that some verses of Quran look embigous and we get confused. if it happens, we should apply this rule “hukum Allah ka, Tareeqa Rasul(pbuh) ka(order of Allah, practice of Prophet(pbuh)”, now, it is clear that Prophet did not suggest it or practice it. if u r still confused, then see the practice of Companions of Prophet(pbuh), even they did not suggest or practice it. if u r still confused, then take guidance from researched schlolars like Imam Abu Hanifa,Imam Malik, Imam Ahmad Bin Hanbal, Imam Shafai. neither they suggested or practice it. now, who the hell we are to change this order of Allah with our will!!

  144. animal lover says:
    December 2nd, 2009 7:35 am
  145. MQ says:
    December 2nd, 2009 7:59 am

    “Most people are bothered by those passages of Scripture they do not understand, but the passages that bother me are those I do understand.” Mark Twain

  146. NK says:
    December 2nd, 2009 8:48 am

    Animal sacrifice is barbaric, cruel and uncivilized way to “bribe” or please the God. Almighty who created the universe, and every living being therein, is in no way interested in boti or haddi that is brutally cut from innocent animals.As verse from the Holy Quran has been quoted multiple times, no drop of blood or mass of flesh is ever going to reach Allah.If just eating meat and getting food off cattles is the only aim of this ugly ritual, what the hell is religion doing here? Why is it being cited as some form of pious act or worship, or glorified and extolled unnecessarily? The “road-show” or street exhibition of so called pity and kindness is intolerable in today’s civilized world as almost all other cultures disapprove of this practice causing lot of embarrassment to muslims living alongwith other communities. Such cruelity is legally forbidden in many countries for obvious reasons.
    Grow up and come outa ghetto of ignorance and shallow thinking and show courage to accept the facts.

  147. animal lover says:
    December 2nd, 2009 9:52 am

    My intention is not to make any comparison among religions, but here is an account of spirit of sacrifice from Hindu mythology narrated by one of my Hindu friends:
    King Shivi was a very just ruler.One day as he was sitting in his court, a pigeon fell into his lap being followed by a hawk (baaj).King Shivi said the pigeon had come to his shelter, so he would rescue it at any cost.But the baaj argued that kabutar is its prey. Then to save the pigeon and at the same time not let hawk starve, the King cut flesh equal to the weight of pigeon from his own thigh and fed the hawk. Due to this sacrifice, life of pigeon could be saved.This is true sacrifice.
    God loves such sacrifices, which are free from any selfishness.
    In muslim mythology Prophet Ibrahim upon Allah’s Command, was ready to sacrifice His own son. That spirit is sacrifice, but killing animals definitely is NOT.

  148. AHsn says:
    December 2nd, 2009 10:39 am

    “I am sick of peole including the author of avioding to participate in religious festivals and encouraging others to interpret islam in a way to opt out of almost every religious festival.”

    @Sara

    It is not the matter of feasting, rejoicing and being happy. It is always a pleasure for all of us and and no Liberal Muslim is against it. The discord is only about the sacrifice (slaghtering and animal). The base of this particular festival is the sacrifice by a prophet (Abraham) of one of his two sons (Isac or Ismael) on demand of some mysterious source (God). God is said to have accepted the sacrifice (virtualy) without receiving any (actually (in sense of physically)).

    Now the Muslims commemorate this event by sacrficing the animals of their choice and claim that it is a religious obligation. Before Islam the Pagan Arabs also used to sacrifice animals to the gods of their choice. The Muslim God (Allah) gave a nod to this practice and the Muslims continued this Pagan ritual in the name of unique God (Allah). How the same bad act of Pagans becomes a good act in Islam?

    The slaughtring of animals and in some cases humans in the name of religion is pre-Islamic. The Incas (Indians) used to sacrifice human heart to their god. The Romans usqed to throw a gladiator to the loins for their (and public) pleasure. The Pagans usually used only animals to keep their gods happy. We (the present human beings) have always condemned these barbaric acts.

    How can we condone the same in the name of Islam.

    Now, I (and other liberals!) have no objection to use the meet as a part of normal meal. So, please go slaughtering the animals! You do not have to hide behind a religion or doing it for personal pleasure or show off!!

    AHsn

  149. Watan Aziz says:
    December 2nd, 2009 11:38 am

    “Where ignorance is bliss, ’tis folly to be wise.” Thomas Gray

  150. Ali Khan says:
    December 2nd, 2009 12:15 pm

    @Ahsn: if u r a Muslim, u must have credence in the veracity of ur own religion. i just wanna ask u a question. if slaughtering of animal were a brutal act, why our Holy Prophet(pbuh) and ancestors slaughtered an ate the meal of animals?? Sir, don’t think that our Religion Islam is an abysmal Religion. it does define the rights of all creatures of Allah. our first believe is that, if it were a brutal act, our Holy Prophet(pbuh) did not do it or enjoined us to do it.
    now, have a look at some ahadis:
    Remember, these traditions are quoted from Sahi Bhukari, Sahi Muslim and Sunan Abi Dawood, three authentic books of ahadis:

    Sahi Muslim, Book 22, Number 4845:

    ‘A’isha reported that Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) commanded that a ram with black legs, black belly and black (circles) round the eyes should be brought to him, so that he should sacrifice it. He said to ‘A’isha: Give me the large knife, and then said: Sharpen it on a stone. She did that. He then took it (the knife) and then the ram; he placed it on the ground and then sacrificed it, saying: Bismillah, Allah-humma Taqabbal min Muhammadin wa Al-i-Muhammadin, wa min Ummati Muhammadin (In the name of Allah, “O Allah, accept [this sacrifice] on behalf of Muhammad and the family of Muhammad and the Umma of Muhammad”).

    Sahi Muslim, Book 22, Number 4841:

    Anas reported that Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) sacrificed with his own hands two horned rams which were white with black markings reciting the name of Allah and glorifying Him (saying Allah-o-Akbar). He placed his foot on their sides (while sacrificing).

    Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 9, Number 2784:

    Narrated Ali ibn Abu Talib:

    Hanash said: I saw Ali sacrificing two rams; so I asked him: What is this? He replied. The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) enjoined upon me to sacrifice on his behalf, so that is what I am doing.

    Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 9, Number 2805:

    Narrated Ibn ‘Umar:

    The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) used to slaughter his sacrificial animal at the place of prayer. Ibn ‘Umar himself used to do so.

  151. Ali Khan says:
    December 2nd, 2009 12:18 pm

    for more information, visit:
    http://www.islamonline.net/English/hajj/2001/Eid-ul-Adha/article1.shtml#kitab al-dahaya

    also, note this:
    According to Imam Abu Hanifah, the slaughtering is a wajib. For Abu Hanifah, a wajib is more than a sunnah and less than a fard. The other Imams consider a wajib to mean fard (obligatory).

  152. Adnan Siddiqi says:
    December 2nd, 2009 2:17 pm

    @Ali Khan: Imam Shafai(RA) would have come across someone similar to the author that’s why he had to say:


    I debated a scholar and beat him. Then I debated a layman and that layman beat me – he had no knowledge of the principles and texts. I had nothing to say

  153. Adnan Siddiqi says:
    December 2nd, 2009 2:26 pm


    Pagan Arabs also used to sacrifice animals to the gods of their choice

    Pagan arabs also used to pay respect to the Kaa’ba made by Abraham(AS). Now you would say,”How can Allah gives respect to a building worshiped by Pagans?”

    Try to make sense please. You gotta read history first what actually had happened. Also, you need to broaden your mind to understand which act is good and which is not. A/C to your theory, we should not bend our back either since it was done by pagans as well. God! how come you guys even come of such weird examples?

  154. ShahidnUSA says:
    December 2nd, 2009 8:20 pm

    Man just want to kill another man
    From pagans to jewdism, from jewdism to Christians
    From Christians to Muslims
    From Muslims to Shias and sunnis
    From sunnis to Syed and Gillanis

    People outside pakistan dont care
    Who is Syed and who is Gillanis
    All they know is that pakistanis (Men) are
    killing Pakistanis (goats)

  155. ShahidnUSA says:
    December 2nd, 2009 9:03 pm
  156. animal lover says:
    December 2nd, 2009 10:39 pm

    (@Ali Khan says:
    December 2nd, 2009 12:15 pm)

    “…Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) commanded that a ram with black legs, black belly and black (circles) round the eyes should be brought to him, so that he should sacrifice it”

    Can you pls tell how many rams being sacrificed today have black legs, black belly and black (circles) round the eyes?

  157. animal lover says:
    December 2nd, 2009 11:24 pm

    @ dear Ali Khan (December 2nd, 2009 12:15 pm)
    Its sheer easy to cite those portions that suit you.
    However its being deliberately omitted that at the same time, the Prophet was very kind towards animals.As it goes,someone had captivated a cat and kept it hungry for three days. Prophet scolded the fellow and freed the cat.Another one, once a wounded dog was thirsty, and a woman soaked her dupatta in water to and squeezed it to put drops of water into dog’s mouth.Prophet praised the woman and said all her sins would be absolved and forgiven.I’m writing this from my memory, someone can throw more light on these stories.
    Question is ,are muslims following this practice (kindness to animals!) also?

    As argued previously, slaughtering animals in those times was necessary, today it is not.
    Being thankful to Allah for food does not make a slaughter a “sacrifice”.
    However, pls clarify whether your cited narrations anywherer reveal that Prophet slaughtered (or “sacrificed”) animals every year on the same day in the same manner as has been adopted by muslims subsequently. Did He anywhere or anytime ordered that you kill animals every year on a fixed day?
    Pls do answer and give a pointed reply.Thanks.

  158. Ibrahim says:
    December 3rd, 2009 12:01 am

    MQ and Watan Aziz: Really no bakra or Prohet Ismail mentioned in the Qur’an about this story?? Wow, oh my, what would we the simple minded blind followers do now?! My whole belief system seems shattered! Oh, shoot, just rememberd that the story is also explained in the ahadith where the animal and Prophet Ismail are both mentioned, but your kufr teahces you to not believe in ahadith; so, of course, you’ve a new controversy on your hands!

    Btw, you guys would come off as more logical and intelligent if you deny the Qur’an as the unaltered words of Allah because transmission of both the Qur’an and hadith passed through the same people (the Mullahs you so despise) and in similar fashion (orally more than in any other way).

    @AHsn…”Before Islam the Pagan Arabs also used to sacrifice animals to the gods of their choice. The Muslim God (Allah) gave a nod to this practice and the Muslims continued this Pagan ritual in the name of unique God (Allah). How the same bad act of Pagans becomes a good act in Islam?

    Do you even read what you write before you hit the submit button?

    But, let me try to answer this joke of an argument of yours: Pagan Arabs also spoke Arabic before Islam including the word Allah (as in Abd Allah…the name of the Prophet’s father), Muhammad was a name given by a Pagan person, the Hajj was a pagan ritual as well (as Adnan has mentioned), the Pagans did sajdah too (but to statues), the Pagan believed in Ibrahim and Ismail not only as prophets but as their forefathers (as we know that all Arabs today are the progeny of Prophet Ismail); pagans also paid blood money, pagans also wore the same clothing as the Prophet (saw) and so and so forth. You see the point? No? It’s Allah who decides what is part of Islam and what is not, and He decided to include some habits and rituals of Arabs after purifying them from shirk and commanding the purification of intentions for Muslims who do these rituals (which is accidently the point of the verse which temporal mentioned and misrepresented to distort Islam).

    So, the same act of pagans became noble for Muslims because it was made part of Islam by Allah and it also becomes noble because the intention behind it is to slaughter the animal for Allah’s sake in Allah name (tawheed) unlike pagans, who did it in the name of their statues (shirk) or some other associate to Allah that the pagans would make up.

    Oh, why do I waste my time talking to agnostic/atheist leftist people like most of those who show up here. If only Sara had answered AHsn herself!

  159. animal lover says:
    December 3rd, 2009 12:51 am
  160. AHsn says:
    December 3rd, 2009 3:56 am

    @Adnan Siddiqi

    “Pagan arabs also used to pay respect to the Kaa’ba made by Abraham(AS).”

    Yes the pagan arabs used to pay respect to the Kaa’ba because they had their gods inside and not because the house was built by Abraham or Adam.

    “Now you would say,”How can Allah gives respect to a building worshiped by Pagans?”

    No, I will not ask the above quzstion, but I will simply say that the Muslim Arabs continued that pagan tradition replacing the pagan gods by a Unique
    Invisible God who is present everywhere according to their Belief. Other Muslims could not do otherwise except following the Arab tradition.

    AHsn

  161. Ali Khan says:
    December 3rd, 2009 6:44 am

    @Animal Lover:
    (@Ali Khan says:
    December 2nd, 2009 12:15 pm)

    “…Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) commanded that a ram with black legs, black belly and black (circles) round the eyes should be brought to him, so that he should sacrifice it”

    Can you pls tell how many rams being sacrificed today have black legs, black belly and black (circles) round the eyes?”

    Sir, that’s a pretty childish question, it’s just an incident. may be it was prophet wish to sacrifice an animal with such appearance that time. it happened only once, not every time did prophet sacrificed the animal which had such appearance.

    plz visit this website for more information:
    http://www.islamonline.net/English/hajj/2001/Eid-u l-Adha/article1.shtml#kitab

    there are a number of traditions which can satisfy u

  162. animal lover says:
    December 3rd, 2009 11:35 pm

    Well, the crux of the problem lies in selfishness of man.
    There is an interesting story,I must share with you.
    Once, a man was passing through a jungle.Suddenly a lion saw him and rushed towards him.It was about to attack him when all of sudden a monkey pulled him up the tree.Lion could not climb the tree and sat underneath waiting for man to come down.Though monkey had saved the man,danger had not yet gone.It was dark, and night began to advance.Man was tired and feeling drowsy.So the two mutually decided to sleep in turns.First half, man slept on the thick branch, and monkey kept awoke to watch for any danger, and held the man tightly so that he might not fall down.In the second half, the man became watchman, and the monkey went to sleep.It was nearly morning but the lion was still there, waiting. The man began to worry, how to get out of this.Suddenly an idea struck in the devil human mind and he proposed a deal to the lion.”Oh, the Lord of jungle,please let me go. In turn, I shall “offer” and “sacrifice” you my friend monkey. I’ll throw it down, then you eat it, and let me have the safe passage.”
    (Pls look at the mean, selfish attitude of the cunning man here).
    Just as he was about to throw, the monkey woke up, understood the conspiracy and jumped to other tree and said to the man, “O you so-called superior race! You have proved that you are not worthy of trust.For your own good, you can wipe out entire species taking asylum in religion.I saved, helped and served you faithfully but you tried to kill me for your own sake.We may be animals, but we are better off than you.”
    Not to tell, the lion laughed at the man and he met with his ultimate end.
    The moral of the story is obvious.While animals have proved to be man’s best friend, man has repeatedly broken their trust through ages.He is in essence,their biggest enemy; but when Allah asks him to sacrifice, he poses his enemies as his dearest possessions, and murders them in the guise of religious ritual.Ever wondered why there is so much corruption in Pakistan and elsewhere where this “superior intelligent race” lives.And moral values are hard to find.
    Yes IMO, so called sacrifices are bribes and deals man offers to the God at the expense of lives of innocent animals.
    I repeat, animals are not born of human embryo, they are different species.Allah would not count their slaughters to be something as man parting with his possession.
    When everything in this universe already belongs to Allah and He is the Master of us all, who the hell we are to offer Him anything.Please do ponder.

    Certainly, ritual is devoid of any justification…

  163. bravo says:
    December 4th, 2009 12:21 am

    >>animal lover says: “Well, the crux of the problem lies in selfishness of man…………..”

    this hits the religion where it hurts most… but unfortunately the ones reading are also selfish religious zealots so most wont be able to digest this truth…

    so much crap is done in the name of God that i am pretty sure God(if He exists) must be holding his head in shame by now.

  164. Faraz says:
    December 4th, 2009 2:47 am

    This whole discussion never went anywhere. Some here believe in Islam as THE religion. While others barely believe in the existence of God. So what’s the point of arguing when we don’t even agree on the basics?

  165. rehan khan says:
    December 4th, 2009 6:53 am

    Dear animal lover,
    Thanks for very very very interesting posts in the discussion.
    All your posts are thought provoking ,and a must read, I would say.
    Your pointer to the moroccoboard link was also quite relevant.
    I’m studying in UK, and I’ll ask all my friends to read the good discussion here on ATP, especially the liberal views expressed including yours.
    I totally agree to your views on the issue.
    We are also muslims but we refrain from such activity and enjoy the festival of Eid.
    Hope better sense will prevail over muslims and sooner they come out of shackles of superstitions and unnecessary rituals, the better.
    Please keep the good work going…

  166. Ali Khan says:
    December 4th, 2009 7:56 am

    @animal lover:
    yes, if u read my comment containing Ahadis, u will probbably find the same thing there that Allah has defined the right of His every creature and we must not violate those rights!! but here we are arguing on what we should do not what we do!! yeah, i wholeheartedly say that the rights of animal must not be broken!! but slaughtering them is not the violation of their rights because Holy Prophet(pbuh) himself did this and i have proved this by the Ahadis.
    Now, u raised a question that was “did prophet(pbuh) do it specially on Eid day and can i provide u with some Ahadis which say this”
    my answer is “yes”, Prophet(pbuh) did it specially on Eid day and i can provide u with a number of traditions saying this. yet, he also told what should we do on Eid day, what should be our appearance and else.
    Now, read the following Ahadis (they are derieved from Sahi Bukhari):

    Volume 2, Book 15, Number 71:

    Narrated Al-Bara’:

    I heard the Prophet (p.b.u.h) delivering a Khutba saying, “The first thing to be done on this day (first day of ‘Id ul Adha) is to pray; and after returning from the prayer we slaughter our sacrifices (in the name of Allah) and whoever does so, he acted according to our Sunna (traditions).”

    ——————————————————————————–

    Volume 2, Book 15, Number 85:

    Narrated Al-Bara’:

    The Prophet delivered the Khutba on the day of Nahr (‘Id-ul-Adha) and said, “The first thing we should do on this day of ours is to pray and then return and slaughter (our sacrifices). So anyone who does so he acted according to our Sunna; and whoever slaughtered before the prayer then it was just meat that he offered to his family and would not be considered as a sacrifice in any way. My uncle Abu Burda bin Niyyar got up and said, “O, Allah’s Apostle! I slaughtered the sacrifice before the prayer but I have a young she-goat which is better than an older sheep.” The Prophet said, “Slaughter it in lieu of the first and such a goat will not be considered as a sacrifice for anybody else after you.”

    ——————————————————————————–

    Book , Number 4818:

    Jundab b. Sufyan reported: I was with Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) on the day of ‘Id al-Adha. While he had not returned after having offered (the Id prayer) and finished it, he saw the flesh of the sacrificial animals which had been slaughtered before he had completed the prayer. Thereupon he (the Holy Prophet) said: One who slaughtered his sacrificial animal before his prayer or our prayer (‘Id), he should slaughter another one in its stead, and he who did not slaughter, he should slaughter by reciting the name of Allah.

    i hope so that u r no more confused in this regard!! plz visit the website, there is a lot of information about this Slaughtering. do not take it at ur ego. if u r wrong, accept it and try to transform urself!! may god bless u, ameen

    http://www.islamonline.net/English/hajj/2001/Eid-ul-Adha/article1.shtml#kitab

  167. Ali Khan says:
    December 4th, 2009 8:02 am

    @animal lover: if u believe in god, u must accept that Prophet(pbuh) was right in his every matter and he is the apostle of Allah!! now, i have given u so many proves!! now, rather than us, u should ponder weather this ritual is devoid of any justification or not!!

  168. javed says:
    December 4th, 2009 8:07 am

    Thanks temporal and animal lover and all other posters for good topic and discussion.

  169. AHsn says:
    December 4th, 2009 11:47 am

    Dear animal lover,

    I ejoyed the story of man, monkey and lion (Trinity). Alas, it had been always the same, except that man has gone further to replace lion by his god or God and slaughter by sacrifice. To please god the man has not hesitated to sacrice one of his own (in some cases even his own child).
    The monotheists even get a reward for their after-life from their God. What an irony!!

  170. animal lover says:
    December 4th, 2009 12:02 pm

    Dear Mr. Ali Khan and all,

    With due respect to the learned poster,one Mr.Muhammed Irtaza, I am quoting comment posted by him in another blog:


    Muhammed Irtaza said…

    Salamun Alykum.

    We do not read and understand the Quran! Consequently, we kill thousands of animals every year during “Eid-al-Adha”, which does not serve any purpose!

    The Quranic teaching is crystal clear. We need to meet the following requirements of the animal sacrifice (Qurbani):

    1. The animal must be donated to the Ka’bah:

    [22:32] Indeed, those who reverence the rites decreed by GOD demonstrate the righteousness of their hearts.
    [22:33] The (livestock) provide you with many benefits for a period, before being donated to the ancient shrine.

    The animal killing during the “Qurbani Eid” does not serve this purpose. Additionally, the current practice during Hajj is to kill animal at Meena, not to donate to the shrine!

    2. The animal has to reach the Ka’bah:

    [5:95] O you who believe, do not kill any game during pilgrimage. Anyone who kills any game on purpose, his fine shall be a number of livestock animals that is equivalent to the game animals he killed. The judgment shall be set by two equitable people among you. They shall make sure that the offerings reach the Ka`bah. Otherwise, he may expiate by feeding poor people, or by an equivalent fast to atone for his offense. GOD has pardoned past offenses. But if anyone returns to such an offense, GOD will avenge it. GOD is Almighty, Avenger.

    The current practice is to send the animal to Meena, not to the Ka’bah!

    3. Only God’s name shall be mentioned. The meat shall be consumed by Hajji, poor and needy:

    [ 22:36] The animal offerings are among the rites decreed by GOD for your own good. You shall mention GOD’s name on them while they are stand- ing in line. Once they are offered for sacrifice, you shall eat therefrom and feed the poor and the needy. This is why we subdued them for you, that you may show your appreciation.

    I do not know how many Hajji eat the meat of their sacrificed animals? The Saudi Government ignores this provision! I know one fellow who lives in the USA recently bought a big refrigerator to save the meat from the Qurbani Eid animal!

    4. Only righteousness is important to God:

    [22:37] Neither their meat, nor their blood reaches GOD. What reaches Him is your righteousness. He has subdued them for you, that you may show your appreciation by glorifying GOD for guiding you. Give good news to the charitable.

    Sadly, we kill animal during the “Qurbani Eid” just to show-off!

    Thank you and may God guide me,

    Muhammed Irtaza :”

    I’d rather choose to be neutral to these comments.

    The link to the discussion there is:
    http://worldmuslimcongress.blogspot.com/2009/11/eid-al-adha-what-is-sacrifice.html

    Another comment there by Anonymous is also interesting wherein disapproving ritual of slaughter, S/he suggests this:
    “While a new tradition can replace it that of sacrificing a Cake shaped into calf, camel or goat made of salads or cucumber.

    It will not happen overnight but those who feel persuaded can start a tradition and introduce to their friends. May be some people can do both. A real cruel-ritual and a feigned fun-ritual that enrich your Eid ul Zuha celebration!”
    Once I also had thought upon, on similiar line.
    Thanks.

  171. animal lover says:
    December 4th, 2009 1:01 pm

    Dear Ali Khan,
    I never disputed that the Holy Prophet himself slaughtered animals. As I said, it was necessity in those times.
    In one of my posts, I asked following question to Need food:
    “But do not forget that since Allah asked Hazrat Ibrahim to sacrifice His dearest thing. Likewise,given that your dearest thing is human child;What will you sacrifice on Eid next year?”
    His reply was:
    “For your other question… thats why I am not a prophet.

    On next Eid I will sacrifice an animal.. as that is what Allah has commanded me to do in Quran 22:36.

    I think I will sacrifice a goat. I personally like goat’s meat over sheep’s. Sheep’s meet is a bit more fatty. You should try goat meat… it is tasty….. mmmmmm… roasted goat leg… thats the best, my mouth is full of water now… ”

    Pls firstly decide if sacrifice is meant for Allah or for watering the mouth?
    Secondly, he said “..thats why I am not a prophet.”; means he ought not do what Prophet did.
    Doesn’t this also mean that today muslims interpret the subject according to their convenience or what suits them.
    In my another post, i asked if muslims also follow Prophet in showing kindness towards animals like two incidents of Prophet i cited.However, this does not seem to be seen in practice. How unethically and cruelly the animals are treated by muslims, is not hidden from the world. This is totally different from Prophet’s command. But on this issue,no one raises his voice or asks people to be kind towards animals as laid down.
    People are saying,cattles are gifted by Allah, they can not become extinct. Look at India’s example. There was a news report saying that due to rampant and uncontrolled killing of cows and buffalos by muslims and slaughterhouses there, number of milk giving cows and buffalos is fast decreasing ,but not the human population and consequently, there is a large unfilled gap in demand and supply of milk and other dairy products. This has led to a large,parallel supply stream of synthetic milk,khoya and ghee. You’ll be surprised that synthetic milk is being made from harmful chemicals such as urea, detergent, white paint, etc.
    Isn’t it alarming enough to ponder over the ill consequences of mass animal killings, humane aspects aside. Thanks.

  172. Meengla says:
    December 4th, 2009 2:37 pm

    1) We ‘Liberals’ are generally not prone to shoving policies down others throat but the conservatives and the fundamentalists are much more likely to force their ideas upon others. Religion is the most convenient tool for their frozen minds. You can see that in this topic quite clearly. We merely request the society to re-consider the mindless and meaningless slaughter of goats, camels, sheep annually and that too in such unhygienic, ostentatious and brutal ways as done in Pakistan.
    2) We ape the Arabs in following these rituals but even in Saudi Arabia Qurbani is done in cleaner and better ways.
    3) Quran is very clear in emphasizing the spirit of sacrifice. And yet the fundos literally and selectively ad nauseum repeat the slaughter of animal part from the scriptures. Can they honestly say that the annual displays of so-called sacrifices of animals in Pakistani streets are done in the spirit of sacrifice? I don’t think they can and that should be the starting point of this debate with reference to religious aspects of these rituals. And yet all we hear is attempts to hide behind Quran by selective quotations.
    4) Someone here has rightly pointed out the economic and environmental high costs of raising animals for food. That far outweighs any short term boost to the economy during Bakra Eid. Also, so long as Pakistanis are meat eaters the goats will still end up being eaten and the goat herders won’t starve to death (even if the goats will continue to gobble up vegetations in huge amounts upto their slaughter time).
    5) I don’t think many here are asking anyone to quit eating meat. But many are requesting to reconsider the mindless, soul-less, spirit-less, unhygienic and brutal slaughter of animals every year in Pakistani streets.
    6) Adopt an animal if you can. Or occasionally pet a sheep or a goat. Look into their eyes. They are quite loving. Or at least occasionally take a look at the thinning and toiling donkeys on Karachi streets. Have some pity on them who can’t complain despite being tortured all their lives.
    7) Finally, again, please spare the animals on Eid Day!

  173. Aamir Ali says:
    December 4th, 2009 6:51 pm

    Muslims today are limited to rituals and hatred of anyone who disagrees with their way. So any suggestion to not slaughter the animal, or more preferably to slaughter less animals will be fiercely rejected.

    What Muslims want today is great food, great car, big house, lots of money and fun. Don’t get in their way !!

  174. Faraz says:
    December 4th, 2009 8:13 pm

    @Animal lover
    “Doesn’t this also mean that today muslims interpret the subject according to their convenience or what suits them.”

    NO. And that’s the core of the issue here. Islam is not open for re-interpretation, not by people like you and me at least. If you wanna be kind to animals, that’s commendable, and I certainly agree with you. But you are not supposed to come out here and start suggesting major amendments to Islam based on your own personal biases. That’s what this is all about. I don’t know how you ‘liberals’ keep missing this point despite it being stated 10 times in 10 different ways.

  175. animal lover says:
    December 4th, 2009 9:10 pm

    @ Faraz:
    There is no disrespect towards Islam. The concern is that muslims are blindly following some traditions, while choosing to ignore many other sayings of Quran.
    It is blind, ignorant practices that are being questioned, not the Islam.

  176. animal lover says:
    December 4th, 2009 9:33 pm

    Thanks Meengla and AHsn for your comments.
    Meengla asks:
    “Can they honestly say that the annual displays of so-called sacrifices of animals in Pakistani streets are done in the spirit of sacrifice?”

    -I cited one example where the spirit of “watering the mouth” was present rather than anything else. :)

  177. Daud says:
    December 4th, 2009 11:35 pm

    Do the commenters – on both sides – realize that they are now constantly repeating themselves.

    Guys, if others do not agree with you after your repeating your argument 10 times already, they will not do so on the 11th time.

    Live with it!

  178. ASLAM says:
    December 5th, 2009 12:04 am

    Agree. Good to have debate. But also good to know when to stop beacse you are no longer convincing anyone new.

  179. Adnan Siddiqi says:
    December 5th, 2009 6:16 am


    We ‘Liberals’ are generally not prone to shoving policies down others throat but the conservatives and the fundamentalists are much more likely to force their ideas upon others.

    @Meengla:

    Ironically the point of whole post and then infinite baseless comments by its supporters is the classic example of imposing the personal view by seeking the shelter of the religion.No “Mullah” asked Adil et all to create a post to “promote” Sacrifice. Also, a non-Mullah “literally” kept repeating the ayah 2:37 again and again. When non-Mullahs can’t digest others point of view and start cursing others then what’s the point of complaining here? Or someone must redefine” fundos” here *grin*

    p.s: Have a piece of Gola Kabab from my side. It’s yummilicious!

  180. Ali Khan says:
    December 5th, 2009 10:22 am

    yes, Quran is crystal clear. now, i am giving u answer in ur way.

    1. u said, animal must be donated to Ka abah. i don’t know where u got those translations from. the correct translation is the following:

    (22:33)”In them ye have benefits for a term appointed: in the end their place of sacrifice is near the Ancient House.”

    now, try to understand “in the end their place of sacrifice is NEAR the ancient house (or shrine)”

    what does this “NEAR” tells u?? H.Ibrahim sacrificed the sheep at the place of Meena and that is Near to shrine. at Hajj, we do what was the Sunnah of H.Ibrahim. i hope u r clarified now abt this verse.

    now, (22:32)Such (is his state): and whoever holds in honour the symbols of Allah, (in the sacrifice of animals), such (honour) should come truly from piety of heart.

    this verse is asking us that our intentions when we are gonna sacrifice an animal should be clear and there should be one thing in our hearts and minds that we are doing what Allah has commanded us and what Prophet(pbuh) practiced. i hope u have understood.

    2. i have not completely understood what’s ur view here abt this ayah, plz explain again or i think i have answered it in 1. isn’t it??

    3. Only God’s name shall be mentioned. The meat shall be consumed by Hajji, poor and needy.

    The sacrificial camels we have made for you as among the symbols from Allah. in them is (much) good for you: then pronounce the name of Allah over them as they line up (for sacrifice): when they are down on their sides (after slaughter), eat ye thereof, and feed such as (beg not but) live in contentment, and such as beg with due humility: thus have We made animals subject to you, that ye may be grateful.

    yes, that’s right. The animals are sacrificed with the name of God mentioned. note one thing here!!! These are one of those verses which say that animal sacrifice is totally allowed (HALAL), which u don’t think so. U think we kill animals rather than sacrifice. ok, back to the topic, here in this verse, Allah is not bounding Muslims to eat the meat of sacrificed animals. if u have performed the pilgrimage, u must know how the Hajjis strive. it is sometimes impossible for them to eat the meat at that time because they can’t pack them up and carry to their homes but they should eat I agree because it is the wish of Allah. There is not such thing said by Prophet (pbuh), companions and four Imams. And yes, there are some people who do not give much to needy but don’t deny the fact that those are in majority who donate a large part of their sacrificed animals to the destitute. Even if they do not, that does not mean that we should not sacrifice animal, if it happens, there will be a need for us to transform ourselves. But even in this ayah, there isn’t anything which says that we should not sacrifice.

    4. Only righteousness is important to God.
    (22:36)It is not their meat nor their blood, that reaches Allah. it is your piety that reaches Him: He has thus made them subject to you, that ye may glorify Allah for His Guidance to you and proclaim the good news to all who do right.
    yes, that’s right. We should not show off and our intentions should be clear while sacrificing an animal. But where it is saying that we should not sacrifice animal?? it is saying that our intentions should be clear and we should do that. That does not mean that we should not sacrifice the animal.

    and ur new tradition is just bullshit. are u joking here??

  181. Meengla says:
    December 5th, 2009 10:31 am

    I will try to come back before next year’s Bakra Eid and post in this Topic.
    This Topic has generated quite a lot of responses which is a hopeful sign–for goats! Thank you all for a civil discourse.

  182. Ali Khan says:
    December 5th, 2009 11:01 am

    @animal lover:
    i don’t know why u are saying it again and again that slaughtering animals was necessity in Prophet’s(pbuh) times while it’s not today. weren’t there enough vegetables or fruits that could provide subtitute for meat?? it is said about Holy Prophet(pbuh) that he also liked some vegetables and used to eat them. also, arabs were and are fond of olive. but still, prophet(pbuh) slaughtered and eat the meat of animals. please, clarify urself. what made u think that rubbish??

    and for the one who says that he likes the meat of a goat as u mentioned, i would say that our intention should be clear and that should be that the animal we gonna slaughter is a sacrificial animal and we are fulfilling a wajib. but yes, we can choose what kinda animal we should buy because after all, we also have to eat the meat of animal after giving a share of meat to the destitutes. if one likes the meat of goat, he can or should buy goat because islam is clear. Prophet(pbuh) said: if u don’t like something while u r eating, u should eat something else but without disgracing the thing u do not like. i would again say that our intentions should be clear!!!! and for “that’s why i am not a prophet”, i would request u to please give the complete paragraph in which he wrote this” because if he said this, i would need to see on what ocassion he said this before i infer whether he did right or wrong.
    u say “Doesn’t this also mean that today muslims interpret the subject according to their convenience or what suits them.” it is what u r doing by changing a thing what Prophet(pbuh) did.

    for kindness towards animals, i must say that we should be kind. but by slaughtering them, we do not become cruel as my Prophet(pbunh) himself did it.

    ok, so u have a credence in the research of those who never wanted or want Muslims to sacrifice cow. Mr they consider cow their god and who wants his god to be slaughtered(lol)? they want us to refarin from slaughtering cows by their own made researches. they tried to ban cow slaughtering before partition but after partition, they can’t stop it happening in Pakistan. so, they do this. u can see in India, they do not allow Muslims to sacrifice animal. what I no is that the slaughtering of sacrificial animals is being done since 1400 years but there is no shortage of sacrificial animals. every year in Pakistan, there comes more sacrificial animals in animal market than previous year.
    and u say that it was the necessity of ancient people to slaughter animals but u should believe that Quran is a code of life for all Muslims to come. when Quran has made HALAL to sacrifice animals, how can u say that it is HARAM nowadays??
    (6:142)Of the cattle are some for burden and some for meat: eat what Allah hath provided for you, and follow not the footsteps of Satan: for he is to you and avowed enemy.

  183. Aamir says:
    December 5th, 2009 11:52 am

    I also appreciate the honesty and decency of discussion. I don’t really think that this is a big issue but I do appreciate that ATP has provided a forum where these issues can be discussed decently.

  184. Ali Khan says:
    December 5th, 2009 11:59 am

    sorry, it’s “What i Know( i wrote ‘what i no’ mistakenly)” and also “i don’t know where u took that translation from (i mistakenly wrote “those translations” while i am talking about only verse no 22:33)”

  185. Ali Khan says:
    December 5th, 2009 5:09 pm

    And there is amusing thing mentioned by u and one another person that it is due to the slaughtering that the prices of meat are getting higher! lol… Is there anything in our country which is getting cheap? Tell me so that i can buy it. lol… Real problem is that we are far away fron Islam and that is the main reason of all these problems

  186. animal lover says:
    December 5th, 2009 10:45 pm

    @Ali Khan,
    Perhaps you did not read my post fully.
    I said in my post “I’d rather choose to be neutral to these comments.”
    As the original text was not written by me. I merely quoted the entire comment posted by one Mr.Muhammed Irtaza on some other blog.
    I gave the link, but since you missed it, i’m repeating it again:
    http://worldmuslimcongress.blogspot.com/2009/11/ei d-al-adha-what-is-sacrifice.html

    Since you have objection to the content,I request that you post your observations to the original blog instead; hopefully Mr.Irtaza can explain his viewpoint and answer your questions better than I can. You’ll see that even the “cake” suggestion which you called bullshit, is also quoted from that same blog.
    @ Aamir, I totally agree that the civil discussion we had over the past few days, is honest and decent, and I add that despite accusation of redundancy, which I disagree to, it never went astray.
    @ Daud/Aslam:I’m not embarrased by your comment.I must write something if the context in the discussion requires me to do so. As regards the “nth time” observation of yours, I must say Meengla has given the answer in “….which is a hopeful sign–for goats!”. Every dark cloud has a silver-lining. I take it as just that. An ant was trying to cross a 10 ft high wall. It tried 99 times and fell down every time.But it did not mind, and finally succeeded to cross-over the 100th time.
    And,your saying just 11th time. (Though, as far as i remember, nothing was repeated for that many times.)
    Efforts of dear temporal, and other fellow posters including me, stand rewarded if even one animal is saved, for even one life is more precious than anything else! Remember, it’s just the beginning….

  187. animal lover says:
    December 5th, 2009 10:58 pm

    @Adnan Siddiqi:
    “No “Mullah” asked Adil et all to create a post to ‘promote’ Sacrifice.”
    They do not need to.They have done it through centuries to spread the “jehar of jahiliyat”.

  188. animal lover says:
    December 5th, 2009 11:54 pm

    @ Ali Khan:
    “lol… Is there anything in our country which is getting cheap? Tell me so that i can buy it. lol… ”

    Yeah! It is Insaan and his insaaniyat/imaan that is getting cheaper. :)

  189. animal lover says:
    December 6th, 2009 12:05 am

    Dear all,
    Has anyone come across a thesis written by some muslim professor and his team a few years ago. The university I think is Jamia Milia from Delhi, though I’m not quite sure of it.
    The research was about the environmental hazards of mass animal killings on the day of Eid.
    From my (faint) memory of what I had read about it, I recall that the research says, besides other ill effects, concurrent mass slaughter causes some changes in the vibrational frequencies due to simultaneous outburst of cries of suffering animals. This leads to disturbances in the seismic pattern, and poses increased threats of impending earth quakes.
    I’m searching for it, but could not find the authentic version.
    If someone has any knowledge/pointers about it, pls do share and post your comments. Thanks.

  190. Asif says:
    December 6th, 2009 3:31 am

    animal lover said:
    “They do not need to.They have done it through centuries to spread the “jehar of jahiliyat”.”

    Well said.

    “Efforts of dear temporal, and other fellow posters including me, stand rewarded if even one animal is saved, for even one life is more precious than anything else! Remember, it’s just the beginning….”

    Indeed it is “the beginning” and well begun is well done…
    (Earlier, someone here had called it a renaissance for muslims like the Christians had.)

  191. Adnan Siddiqi says:
    December 6th, 2009 3:52 am

    In this lengthy debate, I found few good suggestions too like to arrange a place for slaughtering rather than messing things up on every road. In Clifton area, the administrators ordered all residents to slaughter within house or go to designated places. Its a good move. When countries like Saudia could have slaughter houses then why not in Pakistan?

    @Ali Khan: As few users suggested here. both parties have expressed their point of view and it’s quite wastage of time to say it again and again. I am sure people who are speaking so much against the meat will already be waiting for beef and mutton biryani on shiny Sunday ;) So kindly quit this debate and follow what Imam Shafai had said once:


    I debated a scholar and beat him. Then I debated a layman and that layman beat me – he had no knowledge of the principles and texts. I had nothing to say” -

  192. Shaheen A. says:
    December 6th, 2009 4:14 am

    Dear animal lover,
    This is Shaheen from Canada.
    I’m also interested in the said research findings, let’s hope if someone could throw light on it. Thanks for pointing it out.
    I also feel that the vibes emanating from dying animals at qurbani time is not good. In a way, they must be cursing selfish humans and giving aahs or haays to the mankind.
    Every action has an equal and opposite reaction,
    which Allah knows the best.

  193. Ali Khan says:
    December 6th, 2009 7:10 am

    @animal lover:
    animal lover says:December 5th, 2009 11:54 pm
    @ Ali Khan:
    “lol… Is there anything in our country which is getting cheap? Tell me so that i can buy it. lol… ”

    Yeah! It is Insaan and his insaaniyat/imaan that is getting cheaper. :)”

    hey Mr: i did not mean insaniat or these things. as u said that the prices of animal meat getting higher, so, i meant to ask abt any product which is getting cheaper nowadays!! is there anything. ofcourse insaniat is getting cheaper but i did not mean to ask that!!!

  194. Ali Khan says:
    December 6th, 2009 7:12 am

    @animal lover: i haven’t found any answer to my recent posts which contain explanation of Quran and Ahadis and else. if u an’t give answer now, then why u do not accede to the fact that animal slaughter is totally HALAL??

  195. animal lover says:
    December 6th, 2009 11:38 am

    @ Ali Khan :
    Sir, you are quite confused. I have read again all your posts from December 2nd, 2009 12:15 pm onwards, as anyone can also do. In your posts, you have narrated/cited book of slaughter in detail and presented your view of the matter, and made your suggestions/observations. It is okay for you to do so.Any scholar, or for that matter, any Maulavi, jaahil or learned, would also do that to explain his point.But you never really asked me any significant question that I or other readers could answer. Really, not until this question which you asked in your post dated December 5th, 2009 11:01 am :
    “and u say that it was the necessity of ancient people to slaughter animals but u should believe that Quran is a code of life for all Muslims to come. when Quran has made HALAL to sacrifice animals, how can u say that it is HARAM nowadays?? ”
    I never said that the Prophet did not slaughter animals or that animal slaughter is “Haram” per Quran . In fact, I never even once used the word “Haram” throughout this discussion. Anyone can read all my posts again and confirm this.

    At the risk of repeating myself, let me reiterate that all we have been discussing here, revolved around the original post by temporal:
    “Celebrate the Spirit of Sacrifice. Spare the Animals.”
    I never doubted that the ritual lacked the so called religious sanction. All we have always been saying is that even though a muslim as you insist, is expected to kill animals, do not just blindly do it for the sake of religion, as if it alone were your duty or obligation per Quran.There are other better ways to express your gratitude towards Allah. Those who do not slaughter should not be demoralized or discouraged. And believe me, this number is going to increase every year whatever fundoz insist. This is the REAL story.

    I’d briefly cite a simple analogy : In a classroom,a child is not learning what the teacher is trying to teach. Though it is not forbidden for the teacher to slap and punish him (in fact he is supposed to do so as per the prevalent practice and the code of school and no one is stopping him; even the founder of the school did so!!), yet he chooses to mend the child through love and care in the play-way fashion.And he achieves better results than what he would have got throuh punishment.
    I ask this question from all, ” Should the teacher be condemned or applauded?”
    I appeal to everyone here including temporal, to just reply in one word : ‘condemned’ OR ‘applauded’ ? Thanks.

  196. October 25th, 2010 10:37 pm

    People so in love with charity never seem to suggest giving up going to movie theatres and other entertainment. The weekly business of movie theatres is easily in lacs. Also, the author is not a vegetarian. I’m tempted to call him a hypocrite but I’ll avoid it, as it would be an insult to hypocrites.

  197. Meengla says:
    November 10th, 2010 12:34 pm

    One more Bakra Eid is upon us (more upon the animals, actually!) and thus one more season of open blood-letting is to be witnessed.
    As a bunch of us said during last year’s season of blood-letting: There is no spirit of sacrifice on the streets of Pakistan during Eid. It is all show–and a gruesome show which scars young minds.
    Spare the animals. Use that money to support charities. And if one is really in the spirit of sacrifice in a ritual way then at least do it in designated areas like (supposedly) they do in Saudi Arabia.

  198. Watan Aziz says:
    November 10th, 2010 9:36 pm

    Great idea!

    Let’s ruin the pay day of the good folks who raised the goats for the whole year.

    Flooding them with water was not enough.

    Yes, true, those good folks who are ostentatious, spoil it for all. Agreed. There is no need to sacrifice more than one.

    But as for the charity and saving money, well, if we ground the motorcades and the associated cost of the protocol for only one month, we will save more than the all the 2nd and the 3rd goats these people are offering for the sake of pretense.

    But if we really want to save (and spend it on nation building) some money for the nation, let us tell our thieves to take a break for just one day!

    Yep, just one day.

    One day of break from our very own thieves will more than offset all the money spend on these animals.

    And we will still keep a lot of good folks gainfully employed.

  199. Naan Haleem says:
    November 11th, 2010 5:20 am

    I dont know about the proponents of this idea of “spare the animal” whether they or their families ever sacrificed an animal and distributed the meat in really poor people.

    Its no bragging about my family at all but every year when people come to our home (and of our relatives) before Eid-ul-Adha to book their share of meat, they always say one thing: “Hamain poorey saal mein sirf isi aik moqay pe gosht naeeb hota hai”

    Can the proponents and supporters of this post provide any alternate for the aforementioned dilemma?

  200. animal lover says:
    November 15th, 2010 9:42 am

    @ Naan Haleem:
    Turning your homes and streets into ugly slaughter-houses just for the reason mentioned by you can never be something to be proud of.
    Do you mean to say all that a poor wants, is that you become a ‘meat-provider’ (and for that you act as a cruel butcher, uski balaa se !). He must get his share of meat. Strange!! Only a plate of meat every year alleviates his poverty and sorrows. That’s great news!!
    This is the only day in the year we must be concerned for the poor, their plight and misery. Again great thing.Indeed!! We are sacrificers after all. Wonderful!!

    A sacrifice to Allah, and an act of butchery can never be the same .

    The over-zealous sacrificers create abnormal demands for poor animals and disturb the economics of meat industry. No wonder, meat is out of reach of poor. But then it does enable rich to be concerned of poor ;)

    And yes, then it should be called “eid of butchery” rather than of sacrifice.

  201. Naan Haleem says:
    November 15th, 2010 2:24 pm

    @ Animal Lover

    If you are a Muslim, then you must be knowing the meaning of Arabic word ‘Nahr’. It means slaughter and is taught in Islam as the best way to present a sacrifice.

    Economic reasons apart (some of which already discussed), its the spirit of sacrificing a life which must be the core of the ritual. Only if we value LIFE as the most precious thing, an animal or a human is almost the same. And slaughtering a halal animal would mean that we are sacrificing the most valuable thing to please Allah.

    No offence, but the thought you represent is of money craving greedy elite, for which, most valuable thing is money and sacrificing it through charity other than ‘Nahr’ meens the most to you, because helping the poor through charity matters more for the show-off elite than to please the Almighty. And I have no doubt in my mind the later of the two MUST be prime objective of every human being (except for atheists).

    You value animal lives because loving animals is the most important thing for you in life. Others value various alternates of charity because they love money the most and spending it in any form will be the greatest sacrifice. The sense of loss of money heavily dominates their other motives when ‘sacrificing’ money even if it is for charity. Little do they value that Allah be pleased with them.

    But for a true believer, pleasing Allah is the ultimate objective and for that purpose one should sacrifice the most valuable thing(s) to achieve this goal.

    I would not be surprised if you are one of the proponents of another bizarre drive to ban Hajj for Pakistanis till we repay all our external debt.

    I would not be surprised (again) if I am dubbed as MULLAH in response to what i have tried to explain.

  202. animal lover says:
    November 16th, 2010 11:34 am

    @ Naan Haleem:

    I value your thoughts just as I value animal lives. However the dilemma still remains. I am talking in terms of your previous post (prior to this one) in which you justified this practice on the ground that it generates meat for distribution to the poor ones.

    If getting meat is equivalent to sacrifice, then a butcher should be a bigger and a daily sacrificer IMHO.

    So, either we justify the practice on the basis of meat it generates for the poor (your previous plea), or on the basis of your religious interpretation (of ‘nahr’).

    Now comes the ‘show-off’ part:
    We offer and ‘sacrifice’ a LIFE to Allah. After sacrificing, we should have no right on that life. But after the ‘show’ is over, that ‘sacrificed’ life is cut into countless pieces to go to awaiting mouths. What a hypocrisy. Aren’t we deceiving Allah by this show-off?

  203. Adnan says:
    November 16th, 2010 1:06 pm

    Dear Naam Haleem, this so called “Animal Lover” just popes out every year around Eidul Adha. Infact he is around whole year but he turned to “Animal Lover” during Eid and always run away if someone tries to refute his shallow reasons. So please “Spare Him” and get ready to enjoy Bhuni Huwi Kaleji,Tikka and Biryani.

  204. animal lover says:
    November 17th, 2010 11:43 am

    Dear N.H.,

    With someone suggesting you to (run away from discussion, and) get ready to enjoy Bhuni Huwi Kaleji,Tikka and Biryani (made out of remains of sacrificed animals), at least now I can get some clues as to where all the religiously over-hyped sacrifices claimed to be in the name of Allah, do actually go.

    Better to admit, that the main intent of the ritual at the expense of lives of innocent animals, is to get you some Bhuni Huwi Kaleji,Tikka and Biryani, in the guise of some sacred ritual act pretending as if it would go to Allah or as if it were for Allah.

    YES, NOTHING HERE IS FOR ALLAH, EVERYTHING IS FOR YOUR OWN ENJOYMENT. ALLAH GAVE BIRTH TO A LAMB (i.e., ALLAH WANTED ITS CREATION TO LIVE ON ITS OWN), BUT AGAINST THE WISH OF ALLAH,THE MERCIFUL, YOU ACTED ON YOUR OWN ACCORD TO TAKE ITS LIFE. AND STILL YOU CLAIM IT HAS SANCTION OF ALLAH.

    This is most ridiculous.

  205. Meengla says:
    November 17th, 2010 11:58 am

    One more brutal slaughter season is upon us and one more year I have failed trying to stop my family in Karachi to slaughter goats. I will not give up. At least I have refused to contribute a single penny into that business. I have offered to contribute if they give money to a charity or even buy meat from a slaughter house and distribute to the poor. But they–like most others–are going to still do the old way: Kill the goats in/around the house and chop it up there. Kids will probably watch.
    Why can’t people get that into there heads that there are other ways to distribute the ‘meat’ to the poor if meat is a must? Also, the poor who are selling the goats can still sell to designated slaughter houses and hence the economy will still get the ‘boost’ as some imply.
    But…as @Animal Lover rightly says, this is mostly about feasting, isn’t it?
    Finally, we are not trying to stop people from animal sacrifice. We are asking for proper hygiene, proper care of animals, and proper measures to reduce the brutality witnessed by young ones.

    PS. Looks like in Turkey too there is a debate about sacrificing animals.
    http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php?msg=commentsaved&n=to-slaughter-or-not-to-slaughter-2010-11-15

  206. animal lover says:
    November 17th, 2010 12:03 pm

    Dear Meengla, thanks for a relevant link,and yes, i really admire your courage and devotion for the good cause.

  207. Naan Haleem says:
    November 17th, 2010 2:41 pm

    @ Animal Lover and Meengla

    We are not deceiving Allah by eating the meat and distributing it among the poor. It is actually a fulfillment of Allah’s command revealed in Surah Al-Hajj as following:

    “So that they might experience much that shall be of benefit to them, and that they might extol the name of God on the days appointed [for sacrifice], over whatever heads of cattle He may have provided for them [to this end]: eat, then, thereof, and feed the unfortunate poor.” [22:28]

    And it is by Allah’s command that we are compelled to sacrifice the animal in Allah’s name only. Again Surah Al-Hajj for reference.

    “And [thus it is:] unto every community [that has ever believed in Us] have We appointed [sacrifice as] an act of worship, so that they might extol the name of God over whatever heads of cattle He may have provided for them [to this end]. And (always bear in mind:) your God is the One and Only God: hence, surrender yourselves unto Him. And give thou the glad tiding [of God’s acceptance] unto all who are humble” – [22:34]

    The above ayya’s clearly show that Allah has created (herbivorous) animals as a form of food but with condition that only His name must be taken when slaughtering the animal in order to reflect total submission towards Allah..

    All of this discussion has been consolidated in the following verse of same Surah Al-Hajj

    “And as for the sacrifice of cattle, We have ordained it for you as one of the symbols set up by God, in which there is [much] good for you. Hence, extol the name of God over them when they are lined up [for sacrifice]; and after they have fallen lifeless to the ground, eat of their flesh, and feed the poor who is contented with his lot (and does not beg), as well as him who is forced to beg. It is to this end that We have made them subservient to your needs, so that you might have cause to be grateful [22:36]

    And immediately afterwards comes the ayya’ (which you and other people in denial of slaughtering quote everywhere).

    “[But bear in mind:] never does their flesh reach God, and neither their blood: it is only your God-consciousness that reaches Him. It is to this end that We have made them subservient to your needs, so that you might glorify God for all the guidance with which He has graced you. And give thou this glad tiding unto the doers of good” – [22:37]

    So my dear!!! Read the whole script to get the truth. Giving just a small part of one ayya in support of your argument and deliberately hiding the rest is infact manipulation of truth, rather an utter lie.

    Slaughtering has not been limited to Muslims only. In Quran itself, Allah’s Command to Bani-Israel through Prophet Moses (PBUH) has been discussed in detail. They were ordered to sacrifice a cow (a creation of Allah). See Surah Al-Baqarah [2 : 67-71]

    Upon animals as a form of food, see Surah Ghafr

    “It is Allah who provides for you [all manner of] livestock, so that on some of them you may ride, and from some derive your food” – [40:79]

    And Surah Al-Nahl

    “And He creates cattle: you derive warmth from them, and [various other] uses; and from them you obtain food” – [16:5]

    And finally Surah Al-Anaam:

    “And of the cattle reared for work and for the sake of their flesh, eat whatever God has provided for you as sustenance, and follow not Satan’s foot-steps: behold, he is your open foe!” [6-142]

    I dont know whether you are a Muslim or a Non-Muslim (including qadianis as per Law). But if you are a Muslim, then your words are clear denial of Quran. I can give numerous Ahadith of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) regarding this issue, but I know some people dont accept it and others find a way around by claiming that the certain hadith is unauthentic. But Quranic references cannot be denied my friend.

    Please dont follow the path of Satan by misleading the readers and others. May you be enlightened by Allah’s blessings.

    @ Adnan

    I am out of Pakistan :-( No concept of your list of BBQ here unless with purchased meat of lamb.

  208. Monano says:
    November 18th, 2010 6:42 pm

    @ Naan Haleem

    Very informative and insightful indeed.

  209. Adnan says:
    November 19th, 2010 5:43 am

    Naan Haleem,
    No he is not a ‘Muslim’. According to Quran, A Muslim is one who submits to God’s will without asking “Ifs” and “Buts” because Ifs and Buts violates the concept of “Abdiat” so just don’t assume every Pakistani a Muslim. I used to do same mistake in past and regretted.

    Referring Quran to him is like referring Science Laws to a illiterate farmer, so do spare him. It’s not about having love of animal, its all about displaying hatred against the religion,the Islam which irks him all the time. Had there been order of eating vegetables only on Eid days, I am sure same kid would have been given lectures to stop eating vegetables.. So don’t feed the troll.


    I have failed trying to stop my family in Karachi to slaughter goats

    Meengla,Assuming you are living in the country called US. I wonder why do you hide yourself in a bin when the entire nation celebrates Thanks Giving and enjoy Turkey meal. I wonder why people like you and so called Animal Lover don’t have guts to oppose it? Who knows you would be enjoying it last year? And I am quite glad your family has not surrendered to your stupidity and ignorance and they preferred to ignore you.


    We are asking for proper hygiene, proper care of animals, and proper measures to reduce the brutality witnessed by young ones.

    Meengla,

    Can you suggest the “proper” and “less brutal” ways to sacrifice animals?

    1-Ank Maar Kay(winking)?
    2-Anesthesia ?
    3-Hypnotize?
    4-All of the above?
    5-None of the Above?

    Pls share some. Also share your contributions to shut down various slaughter houses in Western countries?

  210. Watan Aziz says:
    November 19th, 2010 8:15 am

    Within the context of Qur’an, is someone declares another as “not a Muslim”, that person is committing shirk.

    The only One who knows if a person has submitted or not, is the Malik, the Khaliq.

    Anyone else who seem to possess this knowledge as equated himself or herself to the Khaliq.

    And while Qur’an showers mercy on all mistakes, it does not consider shirk as a mistake.

    And always, on matter of faith, only Khaliq knows best.

  211. meengla says:
    November 20th, 2010 1:32 am

    @Adnan,
    If what @Watan Aziz says above is valid then you have not just called me a ‘Non Muslim’ but also dozens of other people in this topic who have expressed their opinions contrary to your’s. As far as I am concerned I am not offended at all. You can call me a Martian for all I care. By the way, contrary to what you and @Nan Haleem says (the ‘Qadiani’ insinuation), I was brought up as a very mainstream Sunni Muslim who could (and did) offer prayers in most mosques of Pakistan.
    Coming back to the topic.
    This debate has been going on for over a year. I don’t think I have tried to hide behind Scriptures to propound my ideas. I contributed to this debate before this year and I have done this year as well. I am appealing to common-sense.
    Oh, by the way, if Americans start slaughtering turkeys and goats in their front yards while encouraging kids to watch then I will have a problem with that too. As it is, I have a problem with eating most red-meats because of much higher environmental costs. I have greatly cut down on that. Even poultry and fish is much less for me.
    But you would not understand the gradations and the evolutions in human existence. You have it all figured out despite Islamic teachings of Ijmah and Ijtimah.

  212. Adnan says:
    November 20th, 2010 3:26 am

    Watan Aziz, akhir kaar dekhadia na “Kath Mullah Pan” tum ney? What’s the difference between you and Mullahs you curse 24/7? Learn to read others comments first. First of All I wrote as ‘Muslim’ which itself indicates it’s being described “Literally” and the Quran you quote does define the definition of the word “Muslim” clearly so don’t throw out Fatwas so fast.

    And yet you have not used the right term,”Shirk”. Next time come up with the right term when you wish to declare me “Mushrik” *grin*

  213. animal lover says:
    November 22nd, 2010 7:25 am

    Although, Adnan’s comments do not merit any attention and are not worthy of a reply due to his sheer narrow minded approach in making personal attacks on other posters.So naturally I have decided to ignore his inflammatory venomous remarks.

    However, I must reiterate that no poster, including me, requires an endorsement of faith or a certificate from such proponents of religion. None of my posts exhibit slightest of hatred towards Islam. That is neither the subject matter of this discussion.

    All we have been saying is that mass-killing of animals on eid day is not at all justified in today’s world. Reasons like poor get the meat are just shallow reasons. If you really want to help poor, you can do it all 365 days, not just on the eid day.

    Today, man is about to develop colonies on Moon and Mars. Will Adnan take a camel or a cow with him there in the name of Islam? Or would there be a fatawa that a muslim can’t go there as it is haraam!

    Regarding turkey-killings in the US, it is never acceptable to me. But my house will not get cleaned by looking into dust-bins of the United States. Only if fanaticism could realise this.

  214. animal lover says:
    November 22nd, 2010 8:15 am

    “It’s not about having love of animal, its all about displaying hatred against the religion,the Islam which irks him all the time. Had there been order of eating vegetables only on Eid days, I am sure same kid would have been given lectures to stop eating vegetables.”

    Why stretch your imagination that far. There’s the other eid also – Eid-ul-Fitr with traditional sewaiyan and I never opposed that tradition in the name of anti-islam.

  215. November 22nd, 2010 9:49 am

    I used to wonder why this country is inflicted with Azab even though other countries sin more. The reason is because other countries don’t go against Islam the way they do in this country.

    While it is true that animals should not be sacrificed in front of little children, this alone is not a reason to say that Qurbani should not be done at all.

    On the order of Allah (SWT), Hazrat Ibrahim (AS) was ready to sacrifice his son, and today people are having difficulty sacrificing an animal.

  216. animal lover says:
    November 22nd, 2010 10:32 am

    On the order of Allah (SWT), Hazrat Ibrahim (AS) was ready to sacrifice his son, and today people are having difficulty sacrificing an animal.

    Can’t say how the law treats it, but I do not have any objection if you follow Hazrat Ibrahim and go ahead with sacrificing your son on the next Eid.

  217. November 22nd, 2010 11:04 am

    Typical reply from an illiterate.

    Hazrat Ibrahim (AS) was tested by Allah (SWT) to see if he would obey or not. Of course, Allah did not want the sacrifice of his son. Eid al-Adha is a reminder of the incredible obedience Hazrat Ibrahim (AS).

    Islam is different from other religions, where human sacrifices have to be undertaken to please so called gods.

    Reply when you have finished eating meat.

  218. animal lover says:
    November 22nd, 2010 11:19 am

    @ Mohammad Yusha:

    Exactly what I wanted to hear from a literate like you.

    Why just remember the Hazarat Ibrahim’s sacrifice, why not try to re-enact it?

    Why not go ahead and sacrifice your son? If Allah would not want the sacrifice of your son, a nearby lamb would automatically be sacrificed instead!

    In that case, respecting Allah’s wish, I would have no objection to the killing of that lamb.

    We are discussing here about Islamic sacrifice on the Eid, not about other religions, so please be context specific and do not compare it with ill-practices of other religions.

  219. November 22nd, 2010 11:36 am

    Hazrat Ibrahim (AS) was a Prophet. The order of sacrificing his son was given to him by Allah (SWT). You do not know the story of Hazrat Ibrahim (AS) and you are trying to accuse people who sacrifice animals on Eid al-Adha.

    Why don’t people like you have a problem with the sacrificing of animals throughout the year? Also, what about non-Muslims who kill animals? To me, this seems like a perfect opportunity for people like you to point fingers at Islam.

  220. animal lover says:
    November 22nd, 2010 11:57 am

    I know well about Hazart Ibrahim’s ordeal.
    I am not accusing anyone, nor pointing any fingers at Islam, but yes, bringing forth something illogical and misconceived.
    When it comes to sacrificing your own son, you say Hazart Ibrahim was a Prophet.
    Naturally, whatever has been quoted hitherto, applied to the Prophets. Then what is the point in partly emulating the Prophet and in the consequence, blindly killing animals? Obviously, it is difficult for an ordinary man to kill his son, but it is damn easy for him to take countless lives of animals! This is ironical hypocrisy, which is beyond rationale of religion.
    Another example of (mis)interpreting religion what it suits you.

  221. November 22nd, 2010 12:06 pm

    @Animal Lover

    >>>Obviously, it is difficult for an ordinary man to kill his son, but it is damn easy for him to take countless lives of animals!

    And how does killing a son compare with killing animals?

    >>>All we have been saying is that mass-killing of animals on eid day is not at all justified in today’s world.

    Mass-killing of animals by non-Muslims in slaughter houses is certainly justified.

    >>>Reasons like poor get the meat are just shallow reasons. If you really want to help poor, you can do it all 365 days, not just on the eid day.

    Ask the hundreds of thousands of poor people in the subcontinent if them getting meat once a year is a shallow reason. By the way, how many people would help the poor once a year, let alone 365 days, if it wasn’t for Eid al-Adha.

    >>>Today, man is about to develop colonies on Moon and Mars. Will Adnan take a camel or a cow with him there in the name of Islam? Or would there be a fatawa that a muslim can’t go there as it is haraam!

    Typical comment from someone who deviates from the subject. Talk to me when the colonies are built.

    >>>YES, NOTHING HERE IS FOR ALLAH, EVERYTHING IS FOR YOUR OWN ENJOYMENT. ALLAH GAVE BIRTH TO A LAMB (i.e., ALLAH WANTED ITS CREATION TO LIVE ON ITS OWN), BUT AGAINST THE WISH OF ALLAH,THE MERCIFUL, YOU ACTED ON YOUR OWN ACCORD TO TAKE ITS LIFE. AND STILL YOU CLAIM IT HAS SANCTION OF ALLAH.

    There was a direct order from Allah (SWT) to sacrifice the lamb. Thanks for typing that with CAPS LOCK. Now that I know you don’t even know the very basics of Islam, I don’t need to spend any more time arguing with you.

  222. animal lover says:
    November 22nd, 2010 12:34 pm

    Mohammad Yusha says:
    I don’t need to spend any more time arguing with you.
    Thanks for letting me know that.

    Where wisdom ends…

  223. November 22nd, 2010 12:56 pm

    Good excuse to evade my questions.

  224. Naan Haleem says:
    November 22nd, 2010 4:06 pm

    @ Animal Lover

    Looks like you did not read or (more probably) avoided my previous comment. This is why you are not only abusing Islam, Allah’s commands, Prophets, Quraan and the tradition of sacrifice but also making things worse for you.

    For your reference, i am giving the link to below

    http://bit.ly/a28ua8

  225. animal lover says:
    November 23rd, 2010 4:08 am

    Dear Nan Haleem

    With due respect, I must submit that I chose not to reply because I did not want to repeat what has previously been said last year. In fact, your citations are all there already in the last year’s discussion. Kindly discover some time to go through all previsous posts.
    What you have quoted is not being disputed, but the relevance of animal-slaughter in today’s world in the way it is being carried out year after year,is what many of us do not accede to.

    I do not agree that I am abusing Islam in any way. It’s only difference of opinion and way of looking at things.

    Please enlighten me for the sake of my knowledge:
    Is there a single reference in Holy Quran, that asks muslims to repeat slaughter of animals year after year, (to fill their fridges with heaps of meat that is used for days)?

    Next I take up your interpretation of 22:34 :-
    The above ayya’s clearly show that Allah has created (herbivorous) animals as a form of food but with condition that only His name must be taken when slaughtering the animal in order to reflect total submission towards Allah.

    Agreed. But have you ever wondered, why the condition of His name has been stipulated?
    It is to remind you that you are killing one of Allah’s creations for meeting out your necessity.(It also means that if you have other means to feed you, you must excercise restraint in killing animals unnecessarily. Since livestock belongs to none other but Allah, they are precious enough not to be wasted unnecessarily!).
    There is difference in feeding for living, and feasting for days at the cost of countless animal lives which you and other posters must understand clearly.The quoted aayyas do not give you absolute authority to start killing animals on your free will. That’s why there is condition that you must keep in mind that you are taking one life for your dire and unavoidable necessity, hence you cautiously recite Allah’s name in gratitude.

    Hope this makes me clear.

  226. Naan Haleem says:
    November 23rd, 2010 6:57 pm

    @ Animal Lover

    It is to remind you that you are killing one of Allah’s creations for meeting out your necessity.(It also means that if you have other means to feed you, you must excercise restraint in killing animals unnecessarily. Since livestock belongs to none other but Allah, they are precious enough not to be wasted unnecessarily!).

    That is the remotest interpretation of why we call Allah’s name when slaughtering. You will have to do more to justify this interpretation of Quranic ayyas. Looks like you are trapped in a spell of saving the animals which are actually created as a food. And spell bounded, you are making absurd rather funny reasoning without any reference.

    Still you are avoiding other ayya’s of Quran where Allah has spcified (herbivorous) animals as food and means of transportation and has COMMANDED TO EAT.

    Like in Surrah Kauthar:

    Fassall’e Le-Rabbik’a Wa’Nhar

    Here Allah has commanded to pray and sacrifice in one go, you can not say that Allah has commanded to pray but has given option whether to sacrifice or not.

    Similarly, in the ayya’s I mentioned in my aforementioned post, Allah has commanded to eat the flesh of animals. I dont see why you are ignoring those ayyas and clear message given.

    Had slaughtering of animal being a disliked and least preferred act to Allah, why was it made an essential part of Hajj proceedings? an occasion most sacred when you can not even kill a lice, in a location where hunting is banned, in a dress considered purest of all? why?

    Obviously, Allah has always been aware of growing number of pilgrims and this can not be taken as excuse to call it “unnecessary killing”.

    And as for taking Allah’s name on slaughtering, I had already cleared in another earlier comment that it is meant to realize the significance of Life (whether human or animal) as most important worldly thing. Upon Allah’s command, sacrificing an animal’s life by calling His name is a symbol of subjugation and supplication to Allah. That we shall sacrifice (the most precious thing) to none by only Allah.

    Its a question of what is your ULTIMATE GOAL: subjugation to Allah or campaigning animal rights?

    This was the last comment from my side and i am closing this discussion as per Allah’s guidance in Surah Al Hajj

    And if they [try to] argue with thee, say [only]: “Allah knows best what you are doing.” [22-68]

    May Allah bless you.

  227. animal lover says:
    November 23rd, 2010 9:47 pm

    During the whole discussion, I asked this question twice: “Pls cite one single reference which authorises/commands you to commit mass slaughters year by year on a fixed day”, but no reply has been received from those learned interpreters of religion.

  228. Watan Aziz says:
    November 23rd, 2010 10:25 pm

    Outside of Hajj and at Mecca alone, there is no requirement to sacrifice an animal in remembering Ibrahim.

    I am not sure when or how this tradition crept into the Muslim observance for those who are not performing Hajj. Certainly there is no record of it during the times of the Rasool. In the 9th year, he did not perform Hajj. He sent Abu Bakr and Imam Ali to represent him. There is no record of any sacrifice at Medina.

    That said, there is nothing wrong in it either. Remembering Ibrahim for his conviction is a good deed. He was the first Muslim.

    I find nothing wrong with it.

    Further, there is no tradition of any holiday associated with it either. And in case of Pakistan, that can be a week to 10 days. These are all modern conventions.

    For that matter, there is no tradition of taking a Friday off either. All of these are made up conventions.

    The real problem is that it appears that some people have taken the “sacrificing bijness” too far. And seem to do it for reasons other than conviction or faith. Only they know what they are doing and why?

    But with population density in major cities, it has created major problems and it is primarily due to economics and not religion. There is no market mechanism for people to share same feelings on the same day or days.

    The chaos you see due to butchers running around is only in a few cities. Nothing like this happens in villages or smaller towns.

    Problem with Pakistanis is that they see few things in 3 cities and think this is what it is all about.

    But still that said, people should be left alone. There is no need to beat them up like nutty mullahs or fake liberals. There is good life that does not involve wearing a tent nor getting naked.

    Pakistanis are middle of the road people. Vast majority are good sensible people and need not be told what is right. They naturally know it. And they naturally do it.

  229. animal lover says:
    November 24th, 2010 2:42 am

    @ Naan Haleem says:

    Still you are avoiding other ayya’s of Quran where Allah has spcified (herbivorous) animals as food and means of transportation and has COMMANDED TO EAT.

    That is great.
    You once wrote that you live out of Pakistan, most probably in the US or the Europe.
    Since Allah has sent animals to be your food and means of transportation, you must have travelled on camel’s back all the way from Pakistan to the US.
    But, if you used modern day transportation, you’re in trouble since you have not used Allah’s commanded means of transport, just as I did not kill an animal for food… :)

  230. Moin Khan says:
    November 25th, 2010 11:11 pm

    @ animal lover,
    ROTFL :)
    Good points raised by you.

  231. MJ says:
    November 27th, 2010 9:17 am

    I saw some Islamic sacrifice videos on internet.It is hard to believe that in today’s ages, man can be soo barbaric. It is absolutely barbarian, uncultured and ugly. Children were seen watching such heinous acts, and they were laughing at the pains and sufferings of those poor animals. Also I noticed that animals were being slaughtered in open places and in front of other animals, which were slaughtered subsequently. Sure, this can only be islamic way of torturing animals. As someone here pointed out that man is the most selfish of all living creatures, who does it in the name of so-called religious commands. It is most shameful and condemnable act on part of muslims. At least they should come out of this uncivilized ritual now.

  232. Ray says:
    November 27th, 2010 11:54 am

    Hi, I’m from Canada.My nextdoor neighbor is a muslim family from Pakistan. But they never indulge in such brutality. I would severe all ties with them, if ever they tried to kill an innocent animal in the name of religion. But they are not such lunatic persons afterall.
    Hope better sense prevails among all animal-killers across the world, especially the muslims living in the islamic world.

  233. Abbasi says:
    November 28th, 2010 8:08 am

    Yes, animal-lover is right. We have replaced animal-back riding with bikes,cars and aeroplanes, because it is need of today’s times. Why then, slaughter of animals can not be given up? I can’t understand this dilemma.

  234. Shoaib says:
    November 28th, 2010 12:11 pm

    A Big No to animal sacrifice from my side.

  235. November 28th, 2010 9:14 pm

    @MJ: What about animals who are killed in slaughter houses by Christians in western countries. Hmmmm….very un-Islamic.

    @Ray: What about your Christian neighbours who eat meat. Have you severed ties with them all? What about your co-workers, boss, friends, etc. Don’t talk to anyone who eats meat?

  236. Monano says:
    November 29th, 2010 2:47 am

    @MJ

    If animal slaughtering ritual is barbaric, brutal, uncivilized, uncultured and ugly then how would you categorize Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

    My apologies for asking the question if your history teacher never told you about these two INCIDENTS

  237. Adnan says:
    November 29th, 2010 12:12 pm

    Where is animal Lover? I wonder whether he was busy to convince American not to slaughter Turkey on ThanksGiving?

    @MJ: Turkey my friend ! Turkey! Happy Thanks Giving *wink*

  238. animal lover says:
    November 29th, 2010 1:18 pm

    Thanks Moin, MJ, Ray, Abbasi, and Shoaib for your kind words. I appreciate that you understand my point that every life is precious, including that of innocent animals.
    Indeed, Eid has been made into a nightmare for poor animal species by arbitrary interpretation of verses. While the truth is that it never meant you to kill animals beyond your genuine necessity;Certainly not for staging a hyped show-off of sacrifice.
    The definition of ‘terrorism’ should be made to include example of Eid sacrifices. This practice is the mother of all terrorism. IMO,this should be incorporated in all dictionaries for the meaning of terrorism. And the festival of Eid should be defined as the day of biggest terrorist attacks on innocent, be-jubaan animals.

  239. Adnan says:
    November 29th, 2010 1:38 pm

    *grin*

    My dearest Notanki Friend ‘born again Animal lover’ popped out and made a comment without taking a burp after having infinite bites of Turkey. :-). Mian Phanda lag jaye ga.. ek do whiskey k sip tu lay lo :-)

  240. animal lover says:
    November 29th, 2010 1:54 pm

    MJ & Ray,let me answer please.

    @ Monano
    The atomic explosions at Hirsoshima and Nagasaki were very unfortunate, but these were display of advancement in technology against the other party, and most significantly,a part of World War. And they argue that everything is fair in love and war.
    But if you want to compare it with killings of innocent animals in the name of religion year by year, tell me whether your in love, or in war against animal kingdom? Certainly, you can’t be in love with animals, as it seems to be against islam according to some learned posters here.

    @ Mohammad Yusha
    If your ship has a hole, you can’t prevent its sinking by pointing your fingers at another ship with a hole.You can not be acquitted if someone else commits the same crime as you.
    That said,since you have shown your concern for animals being killed by Christians in slaughter-houses, please accept the fact that killing of animals is bad, whosoever does it in whatever form, across religion/countries, and that does include muslims also (on a bigger scale, ofcourse).Why not join me in condemning all forms of animal killing and torture? Your already quite close to it, lolz.

    As regards your question to Ray, I find from Ray’s original post that he has already written:
    Hope better sense prevails among all animal-killers across the world
    To me, atleast it means that he is against animal-killing whether by muslims or by christians.

    Further, as regards mass-killing of turkeys on the TG day, no doubt it is another example of selfishness of the so called ‘superior race’, which I have been writing about. I condemn it in strong words, if it consoles islamic fanatics. However, I still add that unlike here, AFAIK,they aren’t claiming that they are “sacrificing” turkeys. My this observation is in the context of the topic of this discussion.

    I read in the blog from Turkey (Islamic country, not the American turkeys, lol!), that on the eid day, the sea became red due to (terrorist) attacks on countless animals.
    Adnan should really wonder as to what should be my priority!

  241. November 29th, 2010 4:32 pm

    @Animal Lover: That’s not the answer to my question to Ray. Please read the question again.

  242. November 29th, 2010 4:39 pm

    Some of the comments have attacked Islam for the animal sacrifice on Eid al-Adha. However, no one has said anything about Christianity for the killing of turkeys. Please let me know why.

  243. Afsandyar says:
    November 29th, 2010 4:54 pm

    @Yusha.
    1. I don’t think anyone has ‘attacked’ Islam.
    2. Turkey – or Thanksgiving – has NOTHING to do with Christianity or with any religion. It is not a religious tradition at all. It is an American tradition dealing with the first settlers and native Americans. No religious aspect to it at all.
    3. Even if there were, I do not like when non-Muslims teach me about what is Islam, and I do not wish to preach to Christians about what Christianity is. I do know that there are plenty of Christians who are constantly writing about animal rights. I don’t think that my Islam should be dictated by what Christians do or not do. You should also stop looking towards other religions to get the ‘right’ interpretation of Islam.
    4. The issue of eating meat is different from the brutality that this so-called ‘sacrifice’ has become. But I assume that is too deep a point for you.
    5. I am all for sacrifice. There is no need to kill a poor animal to sacrifice. Sacrifice – and sunnat-i-Ibrahimi – is to give up that which is dear to you to those in need in the name of God. That is done much better by sacrificing that which is really dear to us (our wealth and resources) rather than buying a decked up beast a day before Eid to have sho-sha in your mohalla.
    6. The day we stop making Islam a children’s contest – either between the teeth of your bakra and your neighbors bakra, or between Islam and some other religion – maybe that day we will become better Muslims too.

  244. November 29th, 2010 8:31 pm

    >I saw some Islamic sacrifice videos on internet.It is hard to believe that in today’s ages, man can be soo barbaric. It is absolutely barbarian, uncultured and ugly.

    @MJ: People from all religions eat meat. So much for Islamic sacrifice.

    @Ray: I’m not surprised that you haven’t answered my question.

  245. Adnan says:
    November 29th, 2010 11:53 pm

    @Animal Lover, I knew you have no answer to justify your statements. You are continuously posing yourself as a troll. As I said before, you run away when someone tries to bring you in the field. See how re you running and have no answer about Thanks Giving. Thanks for proving that liberals often have upper chamber hollow which is often filled by West with residue of their society.

    @Asfandyar: *grin*. Thanks for saying what I had been trying to say. It’s all about Islam(or against Islam) rather having love for Animal. It’s all about religion. Infact in US, ThanksGiving treated as “Secular Holiday” now despite of it had religious roots in past. Anyways.. I do agree that opposing scarification is only to show hatred against the religion Islam. This is why kids like Animal lover hide in bins or come up with lame funny statements when someone asks about slaughtering in other religions or societies.

  246. Adnan says:
    November 29th, 2010 11:57 pm

    Asfand: Thanks for admitting that it’s all about religion and has nothing to do with Animal Love or something else. So if US celebrates thanksGiving, it’s OK because that’s not Islamic, right? :-)

    @Animal Lover: As expected, you continue the tradition of running away and you re leaving behind traces of your ignorance and stupidity. Go away and come back next year with more quality ignorance.

  247. Afsandyar says:
    November 30th, 2010 12:01 am

    Adnan, maybe you should read the comment again. Slowly. With a dictionary by your side. You obviously did not understand it.

    By the way, do please tell us all what the “religious roots” of Thanksgiving are. Please do.

  248. November 30th, 2010 12:20 am

    > The issue of eating meat is different from the brutality that this so-called ‘sacrifice’ has become.

    @Afsandyar: Brutality? I’m assuming that animals in slaughter houses in western countries are killed in a very nice manner. I’m sure you know that they are hit with a hammer between their eyes to stun them, and often the process of skinning them begins even before they are dead.

  249. animal lover says:
    November 30th, 2010 1:13 pm

    Mohammad Yusha said:

    Some of the comments have attacked Islam for the animal sacrifice on Eid al-Adha.

    However, no one has said anything about Christianity for the killing of turkeys. Please

    let me know why.

    Simple, because this discussion is specific to Eid Sacrifice and not Thanks Giving (FYI,

    topic reads as “Celebrate the Spirit of Sacrifice,Spare the Animals“), hence

    christians or the Americans killing turkeys is not dealt with in detail. As already

    mentioned, no American claims that he is “sacrificing” a turkey. So it does not

    come under the ambit of this topic.

    It is in fact, people like Adnan, who have little meaningful to add to the discussion, act

    as troll by posting off-topic inflammatory remarks. For example, I am a pure 100%

    vegetarian person, and this fellow imagines that I might be eating a turkey. How off-topic

    and baseless comments this man is making in this otherwise meaningful discussion. I had

    asked 2-3 times, and he could have provided us with some citation (other than verse 22:34

    and 22:36 as these are already discussed here and do not help them) which authorize

    muslims to kill(or ‘sacrifice’ as they call it) animals in masses, year by year on a

    fixed day.

    The readers here are not dumb or blind. They look for reasoning and logic, not funny or

    silly comments from (insane) people like Adnan.

    Your apprehensions that Islam is under attack, are unfounded. Why do you, and some others

    here, feel that islam is so fragile that mere discussion of a tradition will harm it.
    On the contrary, it will clean the aura by hitting at unfounded beliefs, myths,

    superstitions, and bad traditions. Cursing the West, or the Christianity, or Hinduism for

    that matter, is not going to help us. Most of the readers will agree to this.

    It looks weird, abominable, ugly and disgusting to shed the blood of an innocent animal

    year by year, and still claim that oh, that was our duty according to Islam. How is this

    ugly tradition helping islam should be explained anyways,rather than what christians are
    doing.

  250. November 30th, 2010 1:59 pm

    @Animal Lover: My questions to Afsandyar, Ray and MJ have not been answered. The moment their flawed theories are exposed they run away.

  251. November 30th, 2010 2:19 pm

    @Animal Lover: People, including yourself, are making it look like Muslims are the only people in the world who eat meat, and hence using it as a tool to label Islam a barbaric religion. That is why I brought people of other religions into the discussion.

    >How is this ugly tradition helping islam should be explained…

    You can ask the hundreds of thousands of poor people and their kids all over the subcontinent, who get to eat meat once a year (on Eid).

    Please stop sounding like meat is only eaten in the world during Eid.

    >muslims to kill(or ‘sacrifice’ as they call it) animals in masses, year by year on a fixed day.

    Muslims kill animals daily, and so do people of all religions. If you are really concerned about the animals, please become a writer on ATP and preach vegetarianism. Your time will be better spent in that manner.

    Please don’t reply using one sentence paragraphs, because it will not make it look like you are saying a lot when you actually aren’t.

  252. animal lover says:
    December 1st, 2010 12:33 pm

    Dear Mohammad Yusha,
    Please make a pointed reply to my query. Let me re-explain my question thus.
    I simply asked if the so called ‘sacrifice’ by killing of animals was made mandatory for the non-hajjis also. And more importantly, if this was called upon to be repeated by every muslim; during hajj or otherwise, every year on a fixed day.

    It is relevant to quote Watan Aziz from comment # 228 (23-11-2010) here:
    “Outside of Hajj and at Mecca alone, there is no requirement to sacrifice an animal in remembering Ibrahim….”

    If Watan Azis is right (which in fact he is!), then I am obviously right in challenging your contention in support of Qurbani Eid. Of course, the auxilliary reasons like meat for poor etc. take the back-seat.

    Please correct me if my averment is wrong, but please support it with evidence.
    Muslims are blindly following this ritual without caring to know, when and who did ask them to practice it year by year on a fixed day. Or, at the least, when did this tradition first start?

    As i strongly refuted, meat distribution to poor can not form a valid reason for this mass killing of animals on one single day. Even you have made two contradictory statements:
    1 “…..who get to eat meat once a year (on Eid).” And
    2 “Muslims kill animals daily….”

    are quite conflicting to each other.
    Muslims, as it has been contended, have been asked to ‘sacrifice’ (kill) animals and distribute the meat among awaiting poor. And as you say that muslims do it every day, but the poor get the meat only on one day and never in the remaining 364 days of the year.That means you are not following Allah’s Command to distribute meat when you kill an animal during those 364 days. Please think and tell me if this was Allah’s Command?

    Emphasising Watan Aziz’s statement, I call upon you to either accept or deny it!

    Lastly, do also tell me who ran away from discussion? Thanks.

  253. December 1st, 2010 2:47 pm

    Holy Quran:

    Therefore turn in prayer to your Lord and sacrifice (to Him only).” (Surah Kauthar)

    “And for every nation We have appointed religious ceremonies, that they may mention the Name of Allah over the beast of cattle that He has given them for food. And your God is One God, so you must submit to Him Alone (Surah Hajj)

    Hadith:

    “Whoever has the ability to slaughter and he doesn’t, then let him not come near our prayer area.” (Reported by Ahmad and Ibn Majah)

    For those who want to follow Islam, no reference is required. For those who don’t want to follow Islam, no reference is enough.

  254. Adnan says:
    December 1st, 2010 2:49 pm


    If Watan Azis is right (which in fact he is!),

    Referring a person who studies Islam from Wikipedia could give a clear idea what kind of knowledge and friends circle you posses.

  255. Adnan says:
    December 1st, 2010 2:54 pm


    For those who want to follow Islam, no reference is required. For those who don’t want to follow Islam, no reference is enough

    Awesome! very well said and very appropriate verses and hadiths you have quoted. You don’t need to elaborate things further.

    It’s not surprising. Such kind of elements existed at the time of the Prophet(saw) as well. They always used to call themselves as “Musalman” but they always had doubts on various matters and always tried to find escape by bringing ifinite Ifs and Buts.

  256. Mohammad Alam says:
    December 1st, 2010 9:20 pm

    Excellent post. I am glad you have raised this issue. The way these so called sacrifices happen are really disgusting and are a blot on the name of Islam. We are Muslims, not qisayis. What might have made sense a thousand years ago makes no sense today. these mullah types are for it only because the hides (khals) fund their operations big time. Sacrifice has now become just a thing of show. There are far better ways to show your generosity by helping other people in real ways rather than slauhtering animals. Interestingly, the same people who defend the killing of innocent Muslims in mullah terrorism also defend the killing of animals needlessly.

  257. December 1st, 2010 9:57 pm

    >What might have made sense a thousand years ago makes no sense today.

    Please explain that part to me. I will deal with the rest of your comment later.

  258. Mohammad Alam says:
    December 1st, 2010 10:30 pm

    Please don’t “deal” with my comment. just deal with your own demons if you can.

    On your questions, and I do not intend to answer any others, its simple: a thousand years ago it may have made sense to send someone riding a camel to deliver a message to someone 5 miles away; today it does not – use email or a phone, please! a thousand years ago it made sense to think of animals as something to sacrifice since meat was not common and animals were the symbols of wealth that was being shared, today it does not, unless you do your banking with a cow and use a goat as your savings account.

    If you want others to become a good Muslim, maybe a good place to start would be to become one yourself rather than spending time on the evil internet (no mention of it in hadees) giving sermons to others.

  259. December 1st, 2010 11:15 pm

    >a thousand years ago it may have made sense to send someone riding a camel to deliver a message to someone 5 miles away; today it does not – use email or a phone, please!

    Allah’s orders a thousand years ago are the same today.

    >a thousand years ago it made sense to think of animals as something to sacrifice since meat was not common and animals were the symbols of wealth that was being shared…

    Meat is still not common today. Hundreds of thousands of poor survive on rice and lentils.

    >There are far better ways to show your generosity by helping other people in real ways rather than slauhtering animals.

    A lot of poor people, if given money, spend it on cigarettes, alcohol, gambling, or some nasha. This is why it is best to give them food (meat), clothes, medicine, etc.

  260. Adnan says:
    December 2nd, 2010 11:33 am

    I did not intend to comment on it further but the funny and irrelevant analogies by Alam made me to address him. He said:


    riding a camel to deliver a message to someone 5 miles away; today it does not – use email or a phone, please!

    email/iphone etc are good tools. I use them myself like millions of other users but please tell me, if I am at a place(basement or other) where signals are not being received or mobile jammers are in place, can you please tell how “your mentioned tools” are going to make communication with a person 5 miles or even a mile away? The rest of the comment is so lame,baseless and stupid that one could just laugh rather reply you.

    p.s: Next time come up with some sensible analogy so that you don’t embarrass your “madrassah” who helped you to become a ‘critical thinker’

  261. Mohammad Alam says:
    December 2nd, 2010 12:19 pm

    Adnan.
    yes, you are right. Go ahead, please use a camel in your basement!

  262. December 2nd, 2010 1:01 pm

    @Mohammad Alam: I will have to admit, your comments are highly amusing. We were discussing religion and sacrifice and you start talking about upgrades in technology. Besides, you ran away from the conversation after your hollow theories, if they can be called theories, were exposed. Furthermore, my demons and my religiosity are not part of the discussion. Try to keep comments relevant to the post.

  263. Mohammad Alam says:
    December 2nd, 2010 2:01 pm

    No, we are not discussing religion. At least I am not. I am discussing brutality to animals which is a function of general brutality in society. There are some who abuse religion to justify that brutality (some even do so in terrorism by calling it jihad), but that to me is an ABUSE of religion and I will not give it the privilege of being called ‘religious’ discussion.

  264. Adnan says:
    December 2nd, 2010 3:32 pm


    but that to me is an ABUSE of religion

    This kind of “Abuse” in other religions as well for instance Judaism and Christianity.


    If the place that the LORD your God will choose to put his name there is too far from you, then you may kill any of your herd or your flock, which the LORD has given you, as I have commanded you, and you may eat within your towns whenever you desire.(Deut:12:21)

    Now I know you or any other liberal don’t have guts to curse it or slaughtering of Turkey thus would come up with some other excuse to show hatred against Islam. It would not be surprise if you people beat even AbuJahal to show hatred against Muhammad’s religion.

  265. Mohammad Alam says:
    December 2nd, 2010 3:39 pm

    Give it a break please.

    has already been discussed.

    First, yes, all religions. happy. We Muslims alone do not have a monopoly of doing bad things in the name of religion. That happens in all religions.

    Second, if by ref to turkey you mean Thanksgiving, that has nothing to do with any religion. It has to do with native americans and the first settlers. And before you ask, yes, I find that objectionable too. Even at more levels. Because rhe way the settlers eventually ‘thanked’ the native Americans was by taking away their land.

    Again, proves that we Muslims have no monopoly of being bad. Its just that some supposed Muslims seem to defend their bad behavior in the name of religion far more often these days!

  266. December 2nd, 2010 4:28 pm

    >Its just that some supposed Muslims seem to defend their bad behavior in the name of religion far more often these days!

    The some happen to be those who do not sacrifice animals on Eid. As for the term supposed Muslims, I think that looking at those who reject the verses of the Holy Quran, it’s not too difficult to see who the supposed Muslims are.

    >but that to me is an ABUSE of religion…

    Apparently following the Holy Quran is an abuse of religion.

    > There are far better ways to show your generosity by helping other people

    Please let me know what the far better ways are.

  267. Mohammad Alam says:
    December 2nd, 2010 5:11 pm

    No, the abuse of religion is becoming ritualistic and missing on the very essence of the message of the Quran (in this case sacrifice and helping others in need) by getting fixated on the mechanics of the words which may have been more appropriate in a different tiem and context (in this case animal killing).

  268. December 2nd, 2010 10:15 pm

    Please explain how sacrifice does not mean the sacrifice of animals when in Quran and Hadith the sacrifice of animals is clearly mentioned. Also, until now you haven’t told us the better methods of helping people.

  269. animal lover says:
    December 5th, 2010 12:16 am

    Thanks Alam for your very good posts.

    Dear Alam, they seem not to have read all posts in the discussion, at least not the

    original post by temporal.Or they may not be repeating those questions that have already

    been elaborately answered before. Many ‘better ways’ to help people were suggested

    throughout this discussion starting from the initial post itself.

    To me, sacrificing logically means parting with what is most privileged to you,and that

    can be anything, not just animals alone. If your wealth is denoted by the strength of your

    herd which you yourself gaze and bring up, and of course, you barter animals for other

    things, yes it can mean animal, as was the practice 1000 years ago. But today,most muslims

    do not gaze cattle. For the sake of formality, they go to nearby bakra-mandi a day ahead

    of Eid and buy one . This process is essentially sacrifice of money, not animal as

    “Commanded” or as at least claimed. Our contention is that instead of a bakra, your money

    could have bought anything else also like books, sewing-machines, medicines, fruits, wheat

    or just anything that can be useful for the poor. Your apprehension that poor would misuse

    your money is unfounded. If you think that the poor have bad habits like liqour, it

    becomes your duty, and a way to sacrifice too, that is to educate them, and mend them to

    follow the path Commanded by the Holy Quran.Allah would love such a sacrifice, not

    shedding of blood!

    Today, the unit to measure your privilege is your wealth which is counted by money you

    have. There is no barter exchange, and the basis for trade and merchandise is money, not

    animals.And that money can buy you anything, not just animals. So why just single out

    animals falsely claiming that the Command is for animals only.So when you sacrifice an

    animal which you bought a day ahead of Eid from a nearby bakra-mandi, in essence you have

    shed your money, you can not see it as a fulfillment of the so-interepreted sacrifice of

    animal. Since animal came to belong to you just a few hours before the deadly act, and

    that too was bought for money, if there is any sacrifice at all here, that is of money

    only.

    I challenged the pro-qurbani mullahs to produce a single quote that authorises yearly killings on a fixed day, but they could not produce a single verse which Commands annual killings.The fact is that nowhere in Quran, or Hadith, it has been Commanded to a muslim to kill animals throughtout his life, on a fixed day every year, such as Eid day.This more than enough proves that yearly killing is a man-made ritual and not at all a Command.Concocted claims,howsoever lust-satisfying, can not take the place of intent of actual religious Orders or Commands.The verses speak of a ‘One-time’ sacrifice by Hajjis. And also this is not for non-hajjis.
    But isn’t it sheer bad-luck of innocent animals that these have to bear the brunt of ignorance of mis-interpreting muslims through generations.

  270. animal lover says:
    December 5th, 2010 12:41 am

    The quoted verse says that Allah has made animals subservient to man for their needs like food and transportation.

    I had asked why mullahs follow a verse selectively.

    Why do they use modern means of transportation today, instead of the subservient animals? If they can do so, why can not they accede that ‘non-mullah’ kind of muslims can use other means of food too, if ugly killing is distracting for them?

    As I said earlier, and then Alam also said similiar,but was never replied to.

    Alam,you can easily see that Adnan is happy communicating through a camel instead of phone/e-mail, and that probably he won’t use his car/aeroplane again for a subservient camel’s back.

    May Allah Bless such learned muslims.

  271. Khurshid A. says:
    December 5th, 2010 1:09 am

    Great posts by Animal Lover.
    Yep, killing animals annually is NOT commanded anywhere.Hope more and more muslims will come to agree to your views in time to come.
    Good going, keep it up.

  272. Salman says:
    December 5th, 2010 1:19 am

    Please stop this nonsense killing of animals.And help poor in better ways on 365 days, not just eid day as written by Animal Lover.I also agree to the stance that this brutality is behind muslims being labelled as terrorists across the civilized world.
    Thanks.

  273. Naan Haleem says:
    December 5th, 2010 4:38 am

    Mr. Animal Lover

    I had previously given you spiritual and economic reasons why sacrificing animals means total submission to Allah almighty. Then I left the discussion after giving you sound answers with references from Quran to your various illogical remarks and questions, i.e. animals are not meant for food, Allah never allowed to kill or slaughter animals as sacrifice etc.

    You can go back and see that you always avoided my authentic replies and always raised a different question. It looks like you made it an issue of ego rather than accepting the reality.

    Now you say that
    >>>The fact is that nowhere in Quran, or Hadith, it has been Commanded to a muslim to kill animals throughtout his life, on a fixed day every year, such as Eid day>>>

    YOU ARE WRONG…… TOTALLY WRONG

    There is a complete chapter in Sahih Bukhari on Eidain (the two Eids) containing several Ahaadith relating the commands and Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) with respect to Nahr (slaughtering) on Eid ul Adha. I have reproduced the English translation of relevant Ahaadith from http://www.ahadith.co.uk while the original text and Urdu translations are found in hard copy of Sahih Bukhari published by numerous printers in India and Pakistan. Read the Ahaadith below and decide for yourself. I think you have no chance of denial now.

    Narrated: Al-Bara bin Azib:

    The Prophet (PBUH)went towards Al-Baqi (the grave-yard at Medina) on the day of Eid-ul-Adha and offered a two-Rakat prayer (of Eid-ul-Adha) and then faced us and said, “On this day of ours, our first act of worship is the offering of prayer and then we will return and slaughter the sacrifice, and whoever does this concords with our Sunna; and whoever slaughtered his sacrifice before that (i.e. before the prayer) then that was a thing which he prepared earlier for his family and it would not be considered as a Nusuk (sacrifice.)” A man stood up and said, “O, Allah’s Apostle! I slaughtered (the animal before the prayer) but I have a young she-goat which is better than an older sheep.” The Prophet (PBUH) said to him, “Slaughter it. But a similar sacrifice will not be sufficient for anybody else after you.”

    Sahih Bukhari Chapter 15, Hadith 71, 75, 82, 85 and 93 given on the website http://bit.ly/gwAs3s

    Original Text of this Hadith and Urdu translation can be found in Sahih Bukhari Volume 2 Chapter 13 “Kitab ul Eidain” Ahaadith no. 951 (Page 122), no. 955 (page 125), no. 965 (page 129) no. 958 (page 131) no. 976 (page 137) no. 983 (page 142)

    Here you can see that Al-Baqee (the graveyard at Madinah) is mentioned and everyone knows that Hajj is not performed in Madinah. Furthermore, everyone knows that one does not offer Eid prayers if one is performing Hajj. So all these Ahadith must relate to those Muslims who are not performing Hajj. And thus the command of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) to slaughter animals on Eid ul Adha is as bright as sun.

    Another hadith…

    Narrated: Ibn Umar

    The Prophet (p.b.u.h) used to Nahr or slaughter sacrifices at the Musalla (on Eid-ul-Adha).Sahih Bukhari Chapter 15, Hadith 98

    Original Text of this Hadith and Urdu translation can be found in Sahih Bukhari Volume 2 Chapter 13 “Kitab ul Eidain” Ahaadith no. 982 (Page 142)
    and another one….

    Narrated: Sahl bin Bakkar

    The narration of Anas abridged, saying, “The Prophet slaughtered seven Budn (camels) while standing, with his own hands. On the day of Eid-ul-Adha he slaughtered (sacrificed) two horned rams, black and white in color.Sahih Bukhari Chapter 26, Hadith 770

    So my dear, let go of your illogical ego and embrace the commands of Allah and his Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) lest you are considered ill-fated.

  274. animal lover says:
    December 5th, 2010 6:06 am

    Thanks Khurshid and Salman for your nice words. I hope more and more muslims understand that killing animals should be avoided.

    Anyways, I have discovered a typo in one of my recent posts : gaze should be replaced with the word graze, please. Thanks.

  275. Mohammad Asif says:
    December 5th, 2010 9:47 pm

    Dear Animal Lover,
    Bhaijaan, beware!! Your comments would never be accepted by the mullah community, and traders of bakra skins. I have little doubts that they’d start abusing you and accusing you of blasphemy of their own judgement.
    You are right that today, the ritual is a mere show-off of money power which can be witnessed a day or two before, at bakra mandies. Very true that the muslims are killing animals, but the sacrifice is only of money and not of animal as proclaimed. Why not use that money in a better, civic,humane and decent way, rather than killing animals?
    But your arguments would make any difference to the fundamentalists, I can’t really imagine! Bhains ke aagey been bajane se kya hota hai?

  276. Adnan says:
    December 6th, 2010 1:51 pm

    Few comments back when Alam said that Allah’s order was for ancient time, I came across verses of Quran which really, really has discussed everything from beginning till end and has already mentioned how would people treat His orders.


    Who deny the Day of Recompense.And none deny it except every sinful transgressor. When Our verses are recited to him, he says, “Legends of the former peoples.” No! Rather, the stain has covered their hearts of that which they were earning. (Quran 83:11-14)

    I’m thankful of people like Alam,Animal Lover or others using multiple IDs here. People like them have always helped me to experience myself what Allah had mentioned long time back in His Holy Book.

    @NaanH: As my friend Asif said,”Bhains kay agay kia been bajana?” Just read the above ayah and move on.

  277. animal lover says:
    December 8th, 2010 8:52 am

    @ Mohammad Asif
    Thanks for the heads up.
    Yes I know, the shackles of mistaken belief are hard to set free, especially if religious fanaticism is in the root of it.But I do have right to speak, even if it is against their version. Thanks.

  278. Naan Haleem says:
    December 8th, 2010 9:18 am

    @ Animal Lover

    Nobody stripped you of your right to speak, at least I never did.

    Its neither religious fanaticism nor mistaken belief. Its ISLAM my dear. I gave you replies from Quran but you avoided. Then you asked for proof from Hadith; I again complied with references from Sahih Bukhari. Now again you are avoiding it.

    What now my dear??? Do you want me to produce a video of Imam Bukhari testifying in support of the Ahaadith? I am afraid that is not possible. Sorry!

  279. animal lover says:
    December 8th, 2010 1:00 pm

    @ Naan Haleem:
    Thanks for joining again.But,the following quotes contradict your interpretations. And many muslims across the world question this “invented” tradition, like me.

    “There is not an animal that lives on the Earth,nor a being that flies on its wings,but forms part of communities like you.Nothing have We omitted from the Book, and they all shall be gathered to their Lord in the end.”
    – Al Quran 6:38

    “Whoever is kind to the creatures of God, is kind to himself.”
    – The Prophet Muhammad (bpuh), narrated by Abdallah bin ‘Amru, in Bukhari and Muslim Collections.

    “The beautiful religion of Islam has always viewed animals as a special part of God’s creation. The Qur’an, the Hadith, and the history of Islamic civilization offer many examples of kindness, mercy, and compassion for animals.”

    The above are quoted from http://www.islamveg.com.
    Then comes the following important text which is sourced from http://www.submission.org/hajj/sacrifice.html :

    “Any day could be a day of festivity for a submitter. Like the way you celebrated the first anniversary of being a submitter. (I must say you did a very good job with your celebration, Alhamdullilah.) Different people could have different days and different reasons for celebrations. The only thing we as submitters to God have to be careful here is not to attribute or fabricate any falsehood to God.

    Some information on animal sacrifice:

    Animal sacrifice done on the day called Eid Al Azha (Bakri Eid) that many so-called Muslims celebrate is like many others acts an innovation falsely attributed to God. Sacrifice is required to be done only by the pilgrims during Hajj or if someone made an intention to do hajj but could not do it for any reasons. There is no requirement on those not doing Hajj to sacrifice any animal, as is traditionally done. This is an innovation.

    [2:196]* You shall observe the complete rites of Hajj and`Umrah for GOD. If you are prevented, you shall send an offering, and do not resume cutting your hair until your offering has reached its destination. If you are ill, or suffering a head injury (and you must cut your hair), you shall expiate by fasting, or giving to charity, or some other form of worship. During the normal Hajj, if you break the state of Ihraam (sanctity) between `Umrah and Hajj, you shall expiate by offering an animal sacrifice. If you cannot afford it, you shall fast three days during Hajj and seven when you return home – this completes ten – provided you do not live at the Sacred Masjid. You shall observe GOD, and know that GOD is strict in enforcing retribution.

    *2:196 See the details of Hajj and `Umrah in Appendix 15.

    The other reasons where animal sacrifice is in the order is when the state of Ihraam is violated between Umrah and Hajj and when a game animal is killed during pilgrimage.

    [5:95] O you who believe, do not kill any game during pilgrimage. Anyone who kills any game on purpose, his fine shall be a number of livestock animals that is equivalent to the game animals he killed. The judgment shall be set by two equitable people among you. They shall make sure that the offerings reach the Ka`bah. Otherwise, he may expiate by feeding poor people, or by an equivalent fast to atone for his offense. GOD has pardoned past offenses. But if anyone returns to such an offense, GOD will avenge it. GOD is Almighty, Avenger.”

    Next comes up an interesting debate “Animal Sacrifice or Blood Orgy?
    –By Syed Rizvi” at http://newageislam.com/NewAgeIslamDebate_1.aspx?ArticleID=3706
    I’m reproducing the text of original post by Syed Rizvi, with thanks and my due respect for him, but for full debate and comments, you may please go to above URL.

    “Once again, Muslims around the world have “sacrificed” millions of animals in a three day period during the month of Eid-ul-Adha to please God.

    Sacrifice inherently means that you part with something that is very close to your heart and experience a certain degree of pain during the process.

    Abraham proceeded to sacrifice his son who was very close to his heart and with whom had great attachment.

    This act of Abraham can be seen as a spirit of true sacrifice.

    Today, if I say that I sacrificed an old sofa for a greater cause, I will be laughed at, since the sofa doesn’t mean much to me. However, this hypothetical act of mine is not much different from someone slitting the throat of a goat to please God and call it a sacrifice, since the person has had no attachment to the goat except a few bucks that he would soon forget.

    I am just wondering if that is what God had in his mind when he asked us to follow a path in remembrance of Abraham’s devotion to God. Today what we do on the streets of Karachi during the Eid-ul Adha is a mockery of Abraham’s devotion to God.

    It is beyond my comprehension that our God, whom we regard as compassionate and merciful finds pleasure watching a helpless camel with one of his front legs tied off the ground and two of his hind legs so closely tied together that he becomes incapable of using those legs independently. And apart from that, his jaws are tied with a rope that he cannot even brawl. And then, a pious looking person sticks a knife into the camel’s throat. The camel bleeds for tens of minutes and suffers excruciating pain until he dies.

    Here are some examples:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oIbT6Plio8&feature=related

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3R6qhjplHM

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ws8ub3wo_hM&feature=related

    I read somewhere that the Prophet stated “La taqtolu bil-la iza’a” if you must kill, kill without torture.

    I don’t see any concerns among Muslims honoring Prophet’s words. We Muslims are very good in cherry picking things; we choose what suits us and disregard those that hinder our ways of doing things.

    I often wonder what if God had asked us to sacrifice our children to make him happy. I doubt any commandment like that would have seen the light of the day.

    The issue of animal sacrifice is often debated among Islamic scholars, and opinions are divided. Ironically it turned out to be a Buddhist Scholar Norm Phelps who had recently posted two of his well researched work on http://www.newageislam.com , and I would invite the readers to re-visit those articles.

    Islam and Animal Rights by Norm Phelps: http://newageislam.com/NewAgeIslamArticleDetail.aspx?ArticleID=2230

    Sacrifices in Islam by Norm Phelps

    http://newageislam.com/NewAgeIslamArticleDetail.aspx?ArticleID=3631

    Other related article also appear on http://www.islamicconcern.com

    The Sacrifice of ‘Eidal –Ahada” by ShahidAl Mutaqqi

    http://www.islamicconcern.com/sacrifice01.asp

    A Pakistani View of Baqar Eid by Abuzar Rayees

    http://www.islamicconcern.com/sacrifice02.asp

    And YES, I do maintain that the title of my article is quite appropriate in the light of the following verse.

    “It is not their flesh, nor their blood, that reaches Allah; nor yet their blood, but your devotion will reach him (Quran 2:196 ; 2:28 . 35-37)

    What happens on the streets of Karachi during these three days of the festival it does not take much to notice that the so called Qurbani has transformed into a blood orgy defied by all standards of human decency.”

    Last, but not least, pls do read http://www.islamawareness.net/Hajj/sacrafice.html also.
    And yes, I hope more and more muslims would agree, at least they’d not care as to what a selected few “order” or expect them to follow. Thanks.

  280. Najmul says:
    December 8th, 2010 10:48 pm

    @ Nan Haleem,
    I saw the videos from URL’s given by Animal Lover. The poster of one of videos, comments “the camel is being slaughtered in this video……..
    enjoy!!!!!!!!!!”
    When did ISLAM begin to ‘enjoy’ the agonies of helpless animals?
    Some have called it awesome, some disgusting. But I’ll call it shameful. How can people be given so much authority to torture helpless animals in the name of Islam. Arey yaar, Islam ko aur badnaam mat karo!
    Sirf animals ko is tarah maarna hi Islam nahin hai. Kya Quran se sirf yehi sabak aap ne seekha aur yaad kiya hai?

  281. Naan Haleem says:
    December 9th, 2010 12:03 am

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

    Animal Lover…. you did exactly what i predicted…. lol….

    You again avoided the Quranic verses and Ahaadith, I presented in response to your remarks like “animals are not for food” and “give me any Quranic verse or Hadith allowing slaughtering of animals on a particular day”.

    I proved to you from Quran that Allah allows herbivorous animal to be slaughtered in His name and its meat be eaten and distributed among others (poor or not). {for reminder http://bit.ly/a28ua8}
    Then I proved through a number of authentic Ahaadith from Sahih Bukhari that Allah’s Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) ordered Muslims to slaughter animals on Eid ul Adha {for reminder see the bottom comment on http://bit.ly/fRKpfx}

    Rather than accepting commands of Allah and His Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), you have come up with a totally new topic – Kindness and mercy towards animals.

    No question about it my dear. One must be kind and merciful towards animals. But one question arises: Should we keep umbrella inside the house all the time so it does not wear off due to rain or sunshine??? My point is we should be careful about our belongings but they have to be used for the purpose they are created. (Herbivorous) Animals are created as one source of food and till the time they are slaughtered, they should be taken care of but this does not imply that Allah forbids animals slaughtering.

    Looks like you have run out of arguments so you have reproduced the text of a website propagating vegetarianism on the basis of selective references (like you did in the past) and which has already been proven false by our discussion on this blog.

    Another big HAHAHA…. the website (www.submission.org) you present in support of your argument is infact announcing and propagating a NEW RELIGION named “Submission”. (look at the second para on their home page). My dear you can not bluff me: I took time to read the website even if you did not. They just wish to adopt the EASY ways of Islam and and present it as new face of secularism. Do you expect me to believe it in comparison to Quran and authentic Ahaadith from Sahih Bukhari?

    Next you reproduced a complete article by someone like your own (again avoiding Quran and Hadith). I have already answered all the his question in our ATP discussion. Do you expect me to give my arguments on that blog as well???

    The last webpage which which you advised me to read is again doing the same mistake (or clever deceit) you did, i.e. citing one or two verses WITHOUT CONTEXT. My dear, I have already given you sufficient reply of that here on ATP. {for reminder http://bit.ly/a28ua8}

    I dont have personality clash, ego or any vendetta against you. I just presented Quran and Hadith in support of my argument. If you want to be vegetarian do as you like. You dont want to slaughter animals on Eid or otherwise, do as you like. You wish to love animals, do as you like. But please dont distort the facts. Do not give false or selective meanings to Allah’s commands.

    I shall pray for Allah’s blessings upon you.

  282. Naan Haleem says:
    December 9th, 2010 12:18 am

    Dear Najmul

    I did not sacrifice that camel. I did not slaughter that camel. I was not present over there. I did not make the video. I did not upload it. I did not post comment on it neither did i said “Enjoy”.

    The deeds of an unskilled butcher should not be taken as proof for declaring religious rituals as shameful. Did you care to call Americans “terrorists” when they killed civilians in Iraq with excuse of “incomplete information” or “friendly fire” or “lack of precision”?

    Seriously, Sacrifice is not a matter of enjoyment, its obligation and must be done with an attitude of total submission to Allah rather than being funny about it.

  283. Aliya Ikran says:
    December 9th, 2010 2:17 am

    Can the two of you please let go of this. You have said your bit and neither is willing or able to see the others point. So why keep repeating it and becoming a nuscience for everyone else. Go your separate ways and do what you see fit!

  284. Imran Alvi says:
    December 9th, 2010 1:05 pm

    What a useless conversation this has become. Stubborn people talking past each other.

  285. Adnan says:
    December 9th, 2010 11:49 pm

    @Naan Haleem: move on my friend. ZilHajj is over now. It’s Moharram now. Can we discuss the religious fanaticism officially exhibited by Shias in the month of Moharram? For instance this torture? Would Animal Lover(who probably be a Shia) shed light on this video?

    http://tinyurl.com/359tk54

  286. Faheem says:
    December 11th, 2010 4:13 am

    rather useless debate

  287. Najmul says:
    December 11th, 2010 9:42 am

    If many of us feel that this discussion should not be continued further, then so it be, its quite okay for me.
    However, on my last note, let me say something in connection to Naan Haleem’s comments, which merit a

    response from me.

    Naan Haleem said

    >>>I did not sacrifice that camel. I did not slaughter that camel. I was not present over there. I did not make the

    video. I did not upload it. I did not post comment on it neither did i said “Enjoy”.

    It is not the question of “this camel, or “that” camel. It is in regard to “the” camel, if at all you can understand it.

    It is about all camels in general, in fact all innocent animals.
    But I know either you do not understand the discussion, or you do not want to understand the issue.

    You’re challenged Mr. Haleem, to take a round on the streets in Pakistan on the next Eid, and witness how

    brutally the slaughters are actually performed in reality. There of course, you’re free to sacrifice a camel. You’re

    free to slaughter a camel. You’re free to be present over there. You should shoot a video and post on the net as

    well, and post a comment too. But, I’m sure, if you’re a human, you’d never say “enjoy” but would perhaps say

    “lament”.

    >>>The deeds of an unskilled butcher should not be taken as proof for declaring religious rituals as shameful.

    I’d rather call those all merciless UN-ISLAMIC killers as shameless.

    No Mr Haleem! You can not run away from your responsibility by saying that a butcher or two may do it wrong

    way. As I challenged you, if anyone truthful enough, and undeceiving to Allah (pbuh) impartially judges this,he

    would put this figure of uninformed butchers (who in practice act contrary to what and how the Prophet did!) to

    not 1-2 % but 98-99%.
    Yes, Mr Haleem! It is reality that the slaughters on the Eid day are not according to Islam.

    I said you can not escape from your responsibility. Because, it is only because of Islamic interpreters like you,

    and adnan and Yusha et. el., that such traditions are forced upon muslims and their children, and their

    generations, and they are brainwashed to follow such rituals blindly, else they are not muslims.
    Therefore, either you mend all your butchers to kill islamic way or if they can not, then they should not shoulder

    the burden of blood-baths across the streets to make a mockery of Islamic traditions. Or if you can not, then such redundant, hard

    to observe empty rituals should be abandoned altogether. But I am sure, this comment of mine would irk Mullahs

    and skin trader community, who in the lust and desire of loads of meat , and a bribe of boties and haddies, just

    not care what is the right Islamic way.

    Please Mr Haleem and Company, do post your videos and experience next year. With your honest and truthful

    ratings if 99% of sacrifices are not done according to spirit of Islam or not. And what punishment you order for

    them?

    Lastly, I read Mr. Animals Lovers’ and yours comments. Your interpretation of sacrifice is not correct. As Animal

    Lover said, sacrifice is only a requirement during Hajj ( Remember animal has to go to Ancient Shrine!).
    And an animal killed on the streets of Lahore or Karachi never goes to Ancient Shrine!!!)
    I won’t argue any further, but please be better informed of religion, before you influence other readers’ mindsets on public domain or, in real life.

  288. Naan Haleem says:
    December 11th, 2010 10:29 am

    I never commented on “the way slaughtering is done” in Pakistan. Islam and its obligations can not be criticized or denounced for the perceived or factual uncivilized practices of certain culture. On the same principle, would you recommend Zakat to be abolished outright keeping in view corrupt practices in Pakistan?

    I have already given a number of authentic Ahaadith from Sahih Bukhari (with references) where Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) visited Al-Baqee (graveyard in Madinah and Hajj is not performed in Madinah), then offered Eid prayers and then commanded the Muslims gathered on Eid prayers IN MADINAH to slaughter in the name of Almighty Allah.

    I already have offered truce (:P) to Animal lover and so I do to everyone. You are free to criticise the way Muslims of today under-perform as a civilized society, only thing I request is, PLEASE dont distort or hide teachings and beliefs prescribed in Quran and Hadees.

    “Apnaa aqeeda mat chhorro, kisi ka aqeeda mat chherro”

  289. Adnan says:
    December 11th, 2010 12:42 pm


    to observe empty rituals should be abandoned altogether. But I am sure, this comment of mine would irk Mullahs

    Dear Najamul Hasan, Few pages back, a non-Mullah kid was trying to teach about what’s shirk or what not. I think you should listen that non-Mullah kid first. According to him, you are a “Mushrik” now. Qissa Khatam. And as I said before and saying again, “Slaughtering” is not painful. And I asked all pseudo literate ppl around that whether they would suggest some romantic method of slaughtering them? if there’s one then do share otherwise no need to waste your time here. Also you need to define brutality because in non-Muslim countries, slaughter house also “kill” animal and blood does shed out. According to you people, West is more civilized than Mullahs yet they kill and eat animals. Any Turkey or kosher food eater out there???

    And no, no Mullah is going to get irked of what you or other liberals are trying to say because Mullah knows enough history that such kind of opposition had already started by anti-Islam forces since advent of Islam so they just ignore what others say. So don’t make your night restless by thinking of Mullahs.

  290. Anwar says:
    December 12th, 2010 4:12 am

    Najmul said:

    But I am sure, this comment of mine would irk Mullahs and skin trader community, who in the lust and desire of loads of meat , and a bribe of boties and haddies, just not care what is the right Islamic way.

    Wow, kya baat kahi hai.
    When I was a kid, a Mullaji of our village used to treat illness of villagers.
    His method of treatment started by asking for a murga to be brought.
    Then he would summon another murga after a few days.
    Then a bakra…
    Then a murga again…
    Then…
    If the patient recovered from illness, it was kudos for the mullah and for the greatness of Islam.
    And there were haddies and boties for the mulla and his family either way.

    ‘Practice’ of any religion, like islam is really great!!! This business never looks down.
    Only thing is that you must be a good interpreting mullah.

    (Moral of the story : An animal is Allah’s gift for the muslims. It is made ‘subservient’ for all your needs, be it food, transportation,khaals, pleasing Allah, or pleasing Mullah. It serves a muslim more than anything else!)

    So what??

  291. Laeeq says:
    December 12th, 2010 8:07 am

    I have been giving money to the poor each Eid instead of slaughter. I feel better that my sacrifice will be put to good use and Allah’s world will be a better place for at least someone because of my small contribution

  292. Anwar says:
    December 14th, 2010 10:24 am

    Laeeq Bhai,
    Definitely, Allah Likes your way to sacrifice, and Allah’s world would be a better place.
    But i’m afraid, Mullah’s world would be a hungry world if there are no animal killings on eid. I’m worried for poor mullahs.

  293. Arif says:
    December 15th, 2010 10:44 pm

    I agree, this qurbani thing has now just become a way to show off your wealth and has no relationship to spirit of sacrifice.

  294. Iffat says:
    December 16th, 2010 2:50 am

    I think helping people with your money is also a sacrifice. As long as Allahs people are being helped it counts.

  295. Shabnam says:
    December 16th, 2010 3:16 am

    When will muslims come out of their hyped world of murga, bakra, cow and camel and their blood? Or they still want to live as an isolated community, its upto them.

  296. Altaf says:
    December 16th, 2010 9:44 am

    I wish to let you know that we too had a similiar discussion in our college, and 95% of us were against animal slaughter. We have decided to ask our families and friends to refrain from killing animals and do charities as sacrifice.

  297. Adnan says:
    December 16th, 2010 11:40 am

    So Shabnam, Thew Jews and Sikhs who practices their religious rituals more than Muslims are NOT compatible with modern world?

  298. Shabnam says:
    December 17th, 2010 1:43 am

    @ Adnan, I do not know much about religious traditions of Sikhs and Jews, whether these are good or bad in contemporary times, so sorry, I can’t answer that. But yes, I’d emphasize that in today’s urbanised society, when most muslims have nothing to do with cattle in their day-to-day life, they are forced to think of bakras, camels, cows, blood etc. and this is not good. It is high time they came out of all this stupidity in the name of religion.

  299. Irfaan says:
    December 20th, 2010 8:43 am

    The bakra scenes are really distracting and ugly. They say that muslims eat meat which comes from slaughter of animals. But is it necessary to enact a qasayee (butcher) for that?
    It will be better if muslims do not insist on unnecessary fundamentalism. Qurbani ka jazba Allah ke liye hona chahiye, na ki dikhave ke liye. What that happens on bakra-id is mere show-off.

  300. A.Malik says:
    December 22nd, 2010 11:33 am

    So in the end, where are we placed?
    I’ll definitely go the Animal-Lover way. Eid means happiness, not unnecessary murders!
    Eid = Sacrifice, yes But,
    No Eid slaughters, please.
    May Allah Bless you all.

  301. A.Malik says:
    December 22nd, 2010 11:37 am

    Errata:
    My previous post, please read as follows:
    Eid sacrifice = yes, but NO eid slaughters please.
    Thanks.

  302. Naved says:
    January 2nd, 2011 8:48 pm

    Yet another Pakistani blog narrated Eid sacrifice in a practical albeit somewhat ‘lighter’ way. Here:
    http://blogs.tribune.com.pk/story/2899/bakra-eid-changing-from-sacrifice-to-fad/

    I really doubt if coming generations would subscribe to, or ever endorse such practice. But don’t panic! They’d still be ‘Muslims’.
    Just my two cents :)

  303. Julfiqar says:
    January 26th, 2011 9:17 pm

    I am not convinced with the arguments from Qurbani supporters. Other than meat and skin, what is the use of this ritual slaughter? Obviously, the ‘sacrifice’ is not going to Allah.
    Poor animals are bearing the brunt of ignorant readings/preachings of texts by muslims.

  304. A.Malik says:
    January 27th, 2011 1:18 pm

    @Julfiqar,isn’t ‘khaal’ (skin) trade and meat a reason big enough for it ;) lolz. Who cares if Allah’s interested in it or not!

  305. Zaheer says:
    March 14th, 2011 4:07 am

    Good post. The purpose is helping people, not spreading meat.

  306. November 3rd, 2011 10:21 am

    The spirit behind eid ul adha relates to the importance we give to the first 10 days of Dhul Hijjah,which the Prophet has described as the most blessed days of the year. In the first 10 days of Dhul Hijjah, the companions of the Prophet (sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam) would fast, perform extra dhikr and nafl prayers, do extra reading of the Qur’an, be overly generous in giving charity, repent for their sins, show gratefulness to Allah (subhanahu wata’ala) and finally perform udhiya (i.e. sacrifice an animal for the sake of Allah). In other words, they would live by the statement of Allah where He (subhanahu wata’ala) says, “Say: ‘Verily, my salaat, my sacrifice, my living, and my dying are all for Allah, the Lord of the ‘Alameen’” (6:162). Thus, we too need to increase in our ibaadah in the first 10 days of Dhul Hijjah just as we do in the month of Ramadan. Then, and only then, will we be able to achieve the purpose and spirit of ‘Eid-ul-Adha and truly give this blessed day the right and respect that it deserves. Its the ritual minus spirit mentality which leads to the problems mentioned in the article and the comments so lets not shy away from putting meat on the table of those who get it only once a year but do it so to get Allah’s “QURB” closeness.

  307. animal lover says:
    November 5th, 2011 7:59 pm

    Welcome back!

    In the name of Allah, the Most Merciful, billions of helpless animals await (in)humanely act, which would be everything but without “mercy”.
    Countdown for Annual “bravery” day 2011 has begun… tied, bonded, forced, helpless animals would be subject to unparalleled islamic bravery…
    Friends, are your fridges ready for loads of meat which you’d have to eat for days… uhh, as “bye-product” for the “sacrifice” to Allah, the Most Kind…. Afterall, isn’t that “the spirit of sacrifice”, for many of us here…!!!

  308. animal lover says:
    November 6th, 2011 9:18 pm

    Sacrifice means offer something from your own possession. Animals are not born off a human embryo. These are entirely different species. They do not belong to muslims. They only belong to their Creator, Allah. Are you trying to “fool” the God by offering Him something that is already His. Allah does not need anything from man. In a way you are cheating Allah by glorifying this act of deception, by calling it a religious obligation. When Allah the Almighty, is already the absolute owner of everything, how can muslims claim that they are “offering” something to Allah ! SLAUGHTER IS A MERE KILLING FOR HEAPS OF MEAT TO FILL YOUR FRIDGES, NOT A SACRIFICE!!

  309. saif says:
    November 10th, 2011 11:25 am

    You have a point animal lover. When everything already belongs to Allah, the Creator, extolling and glorifying eid day animal killings as “sacrifice” or calling it “killing for Allah” is not right.

  310. animal over says:
    December 20th, 2011 7:28 pm

    ‘Kill & spread the meat’ OR ‘Save & share the Joy’.
    Unfortunately, the muslims have chosen the former.

Have Your Say (Bol, magar piyar say)