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Picture of the Day: Brutally Shameful

Posted on December 28, 2006
Filed Under >Adil Najam, Law & Justice, Photo of the Day
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Adil Najam

This is a shocking picture.

I too was shocked to see it right on the top half of the front page of Dawn (29 December, 2006). I was even more shocked to read the details of this incident that took place in Rawalpindi:

Police broke up a protest demonstration organised by family members and relatives of missing persons, badly beating and arresting several of them after they tried to march to the GHQ to present a memorandum to the Vice-Chief of the Army Staff. More than a hundred people, mostly women and children belonging to the families of the disappeared, arrived in groups to the square in front of the Flashman’s Hotel. According to the organisers of the protest, the participants had planned to peacefully march to the GHQ to register their concern over the detention of their loved-ones, who they say, have been in the custody of the army and secret agencies for the last several years.



Eyewitnesses said the trouble began when a heavy contingent of police, led by SP Yasin Farooq, SP Muhammad Azam and DSP Rana Shahid, pushed some of the protesters inside the hotel’s boundary wall, shoving and manhandling them badly. After some time more protesters arrived and started shouting slogans against the police. Those who had been detained inside the hotel also came out to join them. This led to skirmishes between police and the protesters. According to the eyewitnesses, the protest took a turn for the worse when the police stripped a young man, Mohammad bin Masood, the son of missing Masood Janjua. The witnesses said even then the police continued to drag him, finally throwing him into a police van.

The incident enraged other protesters, especially the man’s young sister, who started crying and flagellating herself. The police also shoved aside the father of a missing man and later arrested him. After having failed to march to the GHQ, the protesters blocked the Mall Road for about three hours. Police and protesters fought running battles for some time. Scared by police highhandedness and arrests, a young girl and a small child lost consciousness and fell on the road, the eyewitnesses said.

Unbowed and determined, the protesters refused to leave the place, end the protest and open the road until the arrested men were released. Later, on an assurance from SP Azam that the detained men would be released, the protesters dispersed peacefully. However, the younger brother of detained Mohammad bin Masood told Dawn by telephone that his brother had not been released by the police. The eyewitnesses said that besides an old man and Mohammad bin Masood, several women had been detained and not released till late in the evening.

The report of the incident in The News, adds the following:

Placard-holding women and children held a demonstration close to Flashmans Hotel here. But the police force stopped the procession going beyond Flashmans Hotel. “We planned a ‘freedom walk’ and wanted to hand over a letter to the vice chief of army staff in the General Headquarters (GHQ),� said Amina Masood, whose husband Masood Ahmed Janjua has been missing since July 30, 2005. Masood is among at least 105 persons missing from all over the country during the last five to six years. The SSPs, SHOs and dozens of constables from various police stations of Rawalpindi were deployed at the roadsides and tried their best to disperse the procession that lasted nearly two hours.

A handful of policewomen were also present at the rally and helped their male colleagues once the protesting women tried to walk towards the GHQ. “Do we belong to the same country,� questioned one aggrieved woman from an SHO when she was stopped. “Do we have arms in our hand? Why are you stopping us?� she shouted. The women shouted slogans and demanded the release of their males before Eid-ul-Azha. Some of the women and their children were even crying. In an unfortunate incident that could easily have been avoided by the security personnel a young man, Mohammad bin Masood, son of Masood Ahmed, was dragged into a police van and forcibly driven away from the scene.

The shame here is not on the young man without his shalwar. It is on the police for allowing this to happen. And in some ways it is all our shame.

My first reaction on seeing the picture was that maybe the young man’s shalwar fell off in the scuffle. The News story calls it “unfortunate incident that could easily have been avoided”; Dawn, however, suggests that he was “stripped.” In either case, the indignity inflicted on the young man is reprehensible. Even more reprehensible is that 105 individuals are ‘missing’ without their families having any news of them.

Here at ATP we try to be as fair and even-handed as possible. We have praised the police in a number of posts when it has done well (here and here). We try to highlight what is blatantly wrong (here and here) when we see it. Silly attempts to spread lies is one thing; disappearances are quite another. They do not do anyone any good and cause irreparable harm to the reputation of the country, and to all of us. To those who worry about Pakistan’s image internationally, we have asked before, and we ask again: Who is giving Pakistan a bad name?

But this is not about ‘image.’ This is about the reality of disappearances. If these people have committed crimes, then let them be charged and presented in courts. And if they are not, then the guilt and the crime is not theirs, but of whoever holds them.

82 Comments on “Picture of the Day: Brutally Shameful”

  1. Eidee Man says:
    December 28th, 2006 9:02 pm

    Image and reputation are important but are of micro value in this case; this is about JUSTICE. Every religion and legal system requires DUE PROCESS. It’s a shame.

  2. Karachiwala says:
    December 28th, 2006 9:50 pm

    Let us joyfully celebrate Mushraff’s seven year rule! Democracy and freedom of speach in Pakistan for all!

  3. shbn says:
    December 28th, 2006 10:02 pm

    I have no words. Even criminals have the right to be treated with respect and dignity. Are we headed to becoming a Godless police-state where no one can question the lawmakers?

  4. ayesha says:
    December 28th, 2006 11:22 pm

    I am literally shell-shocked. Yes, who really gives Pakistan a bad name?

  5. December 28th, 2006 11:55 pm

    shbn,

    What is this refrain about godlessness? There are several godless states in Europe that treat their citizens better than states that re-affirm their faith in god every day.

    This is not because we are becoming godless… but because we have since the 1980s become inhumane, callous and unconstitutional

  6. Ashish says:
    December 29th, 2006 12:18 am

    It is a shame, that police action is the same in the entire sub-continent; give the police the charge to stop a demonstration, and they care too hoots about whether it is unarmed citizens whom they are confronting, and this remains the same whether it be India or Pakistan

  7. Moeen Bhatti says:
    December 29th, 2006 12:28 am

    Those of you who are living in the land of goras, please count your blessings….

  8. December 29th, 2006 12:28 am

    i am wondering that everyone is blaming to poor police only but not to “agencies” who kidnap anyone from different part of Pakistan for interrogation? this has been happening for months and most of them are those who are captured in the name of Alqeda or any kind of Islamic terrorism but I know that pro Mush guys here will no bother to come out of shell of Ignorance and admit the facts. There was a story of a person[sorry i forgot the date of jang paper] in which a wife lodged a complaint that her husband was kidnapped from market and after few months ,she recieved a letter of her husband from Gitmo jail.

    Since econ is not doing good enough so I guess Mush regime is busy in dealing by “selling” Pakistanis to earn dollars so that they can show the increase in Pakistani reserves.

  9. Sufi says:
    December 29th, 2006 12:31 am

    Not really shocking. Have seen several such cases right in front of my eyes. The very definition of police is wrong in Pakistan. Police is not to do justice but take the accused to the courts and the courts are supposed to do the justice. If you look at the policewalas face (second from left) .. just look at the expression on his face. Its a shame. I think all this post should be spread as far as possible so that at least it catches international media’s attention.

    God Bless Our Country, :(.

  10. Samdani says:
    December 29th, 2006 12:31 am

    [quote comment="21221"]Those of you who are living in the land of goras, please count your blessings….[/quote]

    As Adnan Sidiqui rightly points out, these disappearances are being done on BEHALF of the goras… where does that leave those of us living in the land of the goras?

  11. December 29th, 2006 12:41 am

    HOW DARE THEY MARCHED TOWARDS THE GHQ!

  12. Sufi says:
    December 29th, 2006 12:54 am

    I am pro-musharraf, but this is not acceptable at all. Its against the constitution.

    Hamari fauj/government amreeka ki doggie bani hoee hai. Whatever they say, these ppl do it blindly.

    :@

  13. shbn says:
    December 29th, 2006 1:06 am

    [quote comment="21203"]shbn,

    What is this refrain about godlessness? There are several godless states in Europe that treat their citizens better than states that re-affirm their faith in god every day.

    This is not because we are becoming godless… but because we have since the 1980s become inhumane, callous and unconstitutional …[/quote]

    I don’t agree. Those several Godless states you referred to are selective when it comes to treating their citizens with justice and equality. It all depends on your face, color, religion and the newest one these days, country of origin. Why are certain people always (As a coincidence) targets of abuse and harrassment? This Godlessness is a global phenomenon. No one seems to care anymore. I am talking about the decision makers, lawmakers and politicians. Not the poor citizens, who are infact the ones being stripped naked in public!

    I guess I was being emotional when I posted earlier. You cannot expect people to act as angels, specially when they have unlimited power and no repurcussions in case of abuse. That’s just like doctors who don’t care about patients dying because nobody will punish them. They are all playing God.

  14. December 29th, 2006 1:22 am
  15. Sohaib says:
    December 29th, 2006 1:26 am

    Mr Hasnat is spot on. How dare uncouth civilians even think about marching to the hallowed halls of the GHQ? They deserve such indignation!

  16. mast qalandar says:
    December 29th, 2006 2:12 am

    Had this picture been published in any civilized country there would have been a storm raised by the civil society and heads would have rolled. But here in the Land of Pure no one gives a damn. The faithful are too busy buying there respective “rides to paradise”!

    Incidentally, the only “crime” the hapless young man, stripped and being beaten by the police, seems to have committed is protesting his father’s unexplained absence.

    I am already missing New York!

  17. manz says:
    December 29th, 2006 2:28 am

    dard kii had se guzaranaa to abhii baaqii hai
    TuuT kar meraa bikharanaa to abhii baaqii hai

    What else we have to witnesss on the name of enlighetend modeartion and freedom. Enforced disappearnces are just a tip of an iceberg of creulities commited by the insane and sadist rulers.

  18. British Pakistani says:
    December 29th, 2006 6:47 am

    this is soo disturbing, OMG God bless these people.Ya Allah!
    [I have been having nightmares about pakland recently, is just tops it up!]

  19. Pervaiz Munir Alvi says:
    December 29th, 2006 8:21 am

    Moeen Bhatti:
    What is this “land of goras” business? Could you please keep your perspectives straight? The discussion is about police brutality and about lack of civil rights in Pakistan. Plus if you are living in Europe or North America, please do not carry on with this “us versus them” mentality. You are as much part of your society as the person whose skin color happens to be lighter than yours. If you do not subscribe to this thought then you are voluntarily loosing your rightful place as a full citizen of the country of your residence. We Pakistanis must refrain from using the terminology of “gora/kala”. Remember you are what you think of yourself.

  20. December 29th, 2006 8:36 am

    somehow the indian movie ‘Rang De Basanti’ makes sense…

  21. Moeen Bhatti says:
    December 29th, 2006 9:02 am

    Pevaiz Alvi Sir: I simply commented that in the land of pure(Pakistan), there is no hummanity and civil rights; whereas in the land of gora(US), noone can treat you like this….police treats you with alot of respect here…I did not intend to describe any philosiphy, it was a simple comment…if in Pakistan the police can remove my shalwar and beat me with a dandaa on the road, I would rather like to loose the rightful place as a full citizen of the land of pure and faithfuls….there is no “us vs them” mentality, no rocket science, no big philosiphy….I did not use the word “gora” to describe the skin color…
    Samdani: If this is done on the behalf of the “goras”, than we should be more shamful I guess….

  22. Kaleem Afzal says:
    December 29th, 2006 10:03 am

    Shocking, indignation, resentment what else can we put into this mire of emotions that we might feel upon seeing this pornographic display of our own countrymen tormenting our own citizens. But haven’t we all become desensitized to even worse displays of porn shows, almost on a daily basis. With our own protector, the State of The “Islamic Republic of Pakistan” selling it’s own by the bounty, renting out it’s army and then……well I can go on and on …………but the audience, our countryfolks are all not receptive to it.
    On a more practical note the protestors should have known that our “Police Force” inducts the most pathetic and demented, they shouldn’t have expected any humane treatment. The authorities knew about the protest beforehand and should have allowed it to continue peacfully without police interruption. In case of the next protest the following should be observed.
    1. Plan the protest with the worst case scenario in mind.
    2. Keep an alternate route in mind.
    3. Be prepared to use violent force against the Police if necessary (believe me it has worked before and I have seen police wallahs running with their tails in between)
    4. After subduing the Polics make sure of even more stringent measures to contain the outburst and resume peacefull protest. (Very difficult but a smart mob management can do it)
    5. And last keep changing the person in lead to avoid target capturing.

    Alas the third word we live in is within all of us.

  23. azarpr says:
    December 29th, 2006 10:45 am

    My first 2007 Resolution…look at this picture each time I’ll get warm and fuzzy feelings about Pakistan.

  24. MU says:
    December 29th, 2006 10:55 am

    A while back there was a programme called Karachi Kops in UK. Needless to say it horrid even hardened Pakistanis let alone the natives. After the initial shock, Pakistani community showed more disgust at access of press to police stations to record the programme instead of on police brutality itself. Don’t worry we will forget this one too.

  25. Pakistani says:
    December 29th, 2006 1:45 pm

    There you go again. Back to your anti-Pakistan agenda. I will tell you who gives Pakistan a bad name, its people like you who lack patriotism and websites like this.

  26. Eidee Man says:
    December 29th, 2006 1:43 pm

    [quote comment="21236"]I am pro-musharraf, but this is not acceptable at all. Its against the constitution.
    [/quote]

    Umm…the way Musharraf came to power is actually UNconstitutional.

    Military rule, spineless judiciary, terrorist politicians (MQM)….and we’re surprised?

  27. Akif Nizam says:
    December 29th, 2006 3:46 pm

    The picture is shocking but not surprising. There is a video posted on YouTube of a Pakistani policeman hitting repeatedly with his shoe a young boy with his pants around his ankles.

    This is not a police issue; this is not a freedom of speech issue; this is a reflection of our society in general. This happens in our homes everyday; it’s how we treat our disobedient children and women. This happens in our schools everyday; this is how teachers humiliate students to make their own lives easier. This happens in our streets everyday; this is how issues are resolved and matters settled. This happens in our workplaces everyday; this is how employers keep their “servants” in line.

    This utter disregard for human dignity is what makes the world scoff at us. But don’t tell that to some of the regulars on this blog who regularly maintain that international human rights exist only to keep us in chains.

  28. December 29th, 2006 4:55 pm

    Last night when I was formatting this post, I thought of removing the face of the young man being beaten or remove the picture altogether. After all, we do not wish to add to the indignity and humiliation already inflicted on him. After much thought, I choose to retain the picture because (a) it had already been published on the front page of Dawn and (b) my sense was that blanking it would only fuel more curiosity and turn the story from one about his humiliation rather than the shameful behavior of the police. To me, at least, the young man comes out looking dignified in adversity and, as the comments till now suggest, the shame is entirely of those who would commit such as act.

    I hope this was the right decision and have been having an off-line discussion with reader Sufi on this. I thought it may be worthwhile explaining my thought-process and also seeking reader views.

  29. Deeda-i-Beena says:
    December 29th, 2006 5:06 pm

    A picture is worth a thousand words. In this case a million.

    We see a young man stripped waist down. We see clearly the identity of at least seven policemen handliing him and a quiverring cane striking the half naked man.
    The issue is: were these policemen ordered by a superior, or a magistrate for their actions or, were they rogues working on their own. In either case, firstly they and their incharge should be immediately stripped of their Uniform and tried(not unusual when stripping/shedding of uniforms is a familiar demand for much higher persona these days in Pakistan’s political environment)for performing an illegal act. Even in the truncated legal system,the police can only arrest and cannot administer arbitrary punishment without authority of a court of law after trial. Lathi charge, teargas throwing and firing etc. has to be done at the instruction of a Magistrate on the spot, IF section 144 is in force, of which there is no indication at this incident.
    The active Chief Justice Pakisatn may find it a fit case for his Suo Motu action once he returns from performing Haj.

  30. Eidee Man says:
    December 29th, 2006 9:49 pm

    [quote comment="21749"]There you go again. Back to your anti-Pakistan agenda. I will tell you who gives Pakistan a bad name, its people like you who lack patriotism and websites like this.[/quote]

    No, people like you are the problem.

    “Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.” – Mark Twain

  31. iMusafir says:
    December 29th, 2006 10:29 pm

    We praise Musharraf and we condemn Police. After Saddam, it better be Mushi!!!!

  32. manz says:
    December 30th, 2006 3:08 am

    “There you go again. Back to your anti-Pakistan agenda. I will tell you who gives Pakistan a bad name, its people like you who lack patriotism and websites like this.â€

  33. Omer Maqsood says:
    December 30th, 2006 3:35 am

    Just imagine, if it was my or your family member who was missing. And just imagine if it was me and you who was stripped by Police while protesting! I am sure that this young man did everything in his powers -which by the way ammounts to nothing- before thinking of marching to the holiest of all holy places in Pakistn.

  34. PatExpat says:
    December 30th, 2006 7:19 am

    I wish that none of our family members ever go missing and/or handed over to the foreign governments for a few pennies or for legitimizing our illegitimate presidencies. For God’s sake, he was just a 16 year old asking about his father.

    But as one of our bloggers TURAB is fond of saying,

    Jo Mushi ka ghaddar hai
    Woh maut ka haqdar hai

    By that standard, the kid got a lighter sentence.

  35. Faarabi says:
    December 30th, 2006 12:40 pm

    PatExpat, Do you happen to teach in the Boston area?

  36. December 30th, 2006 1:12 pm
  37. zamanov says:
    December 30th, 2006 1:55 pm

    Utterly despicable! Gen Musharraf, his Corps Commanders and the tin pot Shoukat Aziz government should look at this picture every day and apologize to their Maker and to the people of Pakistan.

    This is exactly what makes Pakistan and Pakistanis lose their credibility in the court of world opinion and any sense of ‘Islamic’ righteousness in the eyes of others. How can you complain against the cruelty of India in Kashmir, the crimes of Israel against the Palestinians or the plunder of Iraq by the US government when your own state (police/government) strips and beats common citizens in public. When such crimes against humanity are published on the front page of a leading newspaper and NO ACTION is taken by the authorities! We have no moral authority to complain against brutality in Guantanamo, Baghram, Kashmir or any other place on this planet when there is nothing done about the live human beings that are being abused and killed in our own country by the so called protectors of the nation.

    Until and unless every state representative (army, police, government clerk or bureaucrat) from the top general/secretary to the lowly sipahi respects and serves the public (read Article 14 below) they derive their salaries from, any talk of moderation or modernization is just blatant hogwash.

    Musharraf saheb, I suggest you put this picture on the front page of your ‘enlightened moderation’ handbook and use it to make paper airplanes flying imaginary missions to heaven (read US in your case).

    —————————————————

    Article 14 of the Constitution of Pakistan:
    Article: 14 Inviolability of dignity of man, etc

    14. Inviolability of dignity of man, etc.—
    (1) The dignity of man and, subject to law, the privacy of home, shall be inviolable.

    (2) No person shall be subjected to torture for the purpose of extracting evidence.

  38. Kashif says:
    December 30th, 2006 1:58 pm

    Ghunda raaj

    qareeb hay yaro roz-e-mehshar, chupay ga kusthon ka khoon q kar
    jo chup rahay gi zuban-e-khanjar, lahoo pukaray ga aasteen ka

  39. Farhan says:
    December 30th, 2006 2:00 pm

    Always 2 sides to the story.

    Remmeber the Pic on main page of dawn last year or so when a women was being pulled away from mushrraf ? and it seemed that she was being dragged from her hair ?

    Anyone remmbeer seeing the video of that after couple of days ?

    Not defending this, but jsut saying always 2 sides to story.

  40. iMusafir says:
    December 30th, 2006 2:47 pm

    Agar mulk haath sey jata hai tou jai….
    Tou ahkam-e-hq sey na kar bewafai [Period]

    Ein taza khudaon main sab sey taza watan hai…
    Jo parehan hai eiska, woh mazhab ka kafan kai.

    —Sab sey pehley Pakistan —
    —Yesh sab roshan khayali aur aitedal pasandi key muzaherey hain–
    – You see but you do not observe….Yahya, Bhutto, Zia, Nawaz, SADDAM, Mushi is next.

  41. Partisan says:
    December 30th, 2006 8:07 pm

    The disturbing image sadly sums up Pakistan’s so called progressive movement towards a just, lawful democratic society surely where freedom of speech is encouraged.

    I do not understand the predicament we are faced with here! The higher powers in our country seem to be playing to the tunes of the western world when it comes to seeking out the trouble makers in our country (in other words providing a security service to the foreigners) well! Who is the trouble maker in this case? And what will the ‘higher powers’ do about it?

    I suppose in an ideal world (millions of miles away from Rawalpindi) there will be an independent enquiry held immediately (hopefully not led by the likes of SP Yasin Farooq, SP Muhammad Azam and DSP Rana Shahid) where the following question would be asked:

    1. Why did the police behave in such a disgraceful way? Who gave the orders and why? What will be done about it?
    2. Are the people of Pakistan not allowed to demonstrate in a peaceful and orderly manner if they are faced with a situation which requires them to do so? I know I would if my family members went missing for a fraction of the time compared to the individuals above.
    3. Most importantly… what the hell happened to the missing individuals for whom this rally was arranged in the first place?

    I hope and prey for these people. May Allah solve all their problems – Ameen.

  42. Ghalib says:
    December 30th, 2006 8:36 pm

    this happening right in the center on cantonment!right under the nose of the great GHQ!! its just “bay hissi” this came in papers and 100 of news like this un even surface!

    police is not to be blamed these sepoys working under the orders or garrison commander sittin less than a mile of this place!

    This is the MUshs 7yr old modern democracy civil right freedom of speech 100 of TV channels (having dance galas nudity etc)and a man been tortured!

    its shud be an eye opener fer our nation!

  43. December 31st, 2006 2:01 am

    [quote post="495"]nd it seemed that she was being dragged from her hair ?[/quote]

    Yes i saw it. Actually those guys were Protecting the Woman from Musharraf. ;)

  44. Nadia says:
    December 31st, 2006 8:50 am

    Imran Khan also mentioned this in a television programme. According to Info Minister, an inquiry has already been ordered.

    I wonder if Mr Mush has also seen this in DAWN and what was his reaction?

  45. Partisan says:
    December 31st, 2006 9:36 am

    I remember reading a bumper sticker on our nations favourite car ‘corolla’ several years back, which read: GOD BLESS PAKISTAN – And Please Hurry!

    I guess that sums it.

  46. Abizaib says:
    December 31st, 2006 4:31 pm

    First of all this incident is not unique to Pakistan, nor Musharraf’s Government. To say this and people disappearances happens only under Musharraf is an issue of selective memory for those who obviously are not very fond of him. This also opportunes them to use Musharraf as a punching bag for taking their anger out at him.

    These kind of incidents are not personally ordered by Musharraf. Someone here rightly said it, its a reflection of the society you live in – this is who we are on daily basis with our children, wives, students etc. etc.

    Someone mentioned that Musharraf coming to power was unconstitutional, but this person forgets to mention how constitutional is it by the then Prime Minister to not allow a commercial airline with civilians, mostly students land in Pakistan and order it to leave the territory with a possibility of landing in India and handing your senior most Army Chief to enemy in enemy’s territory. Wouldn’t that be a moment of Pakistan’s glory and dignity?? Ofcourse no mention about that – selective memory.

    Also someone mentioned after Saddam its Mushi’s turn. I am sure this person is a proud Pakistani and will have no issues with outsiders running Pakistan’s affairs and selectively killing its leaders.

    And Mr. Ghalib, the nations eyes have been open for a while, speak for yourself and wake up… This was relatively a minor incident, there are lot bigger issues and things happening that should be the real focus.

    There are tons of video footages available on YOUTUBE and GOOGLE VIDEO on Police brutality in “civilized” and “democratic” western countries including US and UK. A simple search on those sites will render this info for you immediately… Go knock yourself out!

  47. Daktar says:
    December 31st, 2006 8:15 pm

    Dear Abizaib, so you are saying that because this is also done elsewhere in the world and because it has been done in the past in Pakistan, therefore it is OK that this happened!

    I do not find a word on condemnation for the act of dishonor (no matter who is responsible) in your comment.

  48. Abizaib says:
    December 31st, 2006 11:00 pm

    Daktar, yep – thats exactly what I am saying except its not OK but it JUST happens to be like this. Whatelse is so right or righteous about Pakistan or Pakistani citizens, politicians and what not that this incident should for some reason stand-out?

    My condemnation is not going to make any difference, nor I owe anyone a word of it. There has been plenty of it already.

  49. Baber says:
    January 1st, 2007 12:08 am

    People disapperaing in Pakistan is a serious issue and a big problem and our countries agencies like the infamous ISI and MI are behind it and definately Musharraf knows where these people are and what happened to them. This protest should countinue, and people have right to know.
    There are no good and bad dictators, only dictators.

  50. Ghalib says:
    January 1st, 2007 4:31 am

    Mr Abizaib!
    i can see u rationalising one wrong with the other!2 wrongs wont make a right!!this is a minor issue as it does not concern u!but it cud have been us!ironic to see ur reply!one dictator came with islam an this is one with opposite thout!playing with nations ideology!an yet u say we are awake right?there are issues but who will let u settle them as if ull go out the same that happend to the poor man will be ur plight!i can assure u on this!Dictators arent our solution,democracy no matter how corrupt like with our nieghbours is the solution!

  51. Abizaib says:
    January 1st, 2007 5:00 am

    Ghalib, suit yourself but do not tell me what if it happend to me or us – you don’t know me from Adam.

    You are for corrupt democracy and I may be percieved as being a supporter of rational “dictatorship”, although I don’t see this govt as such; either rational or dictatorship. But to say democracy is the solution is something you don’t know yourself – as there never has been a democracy in Pakistan, just aristocracies.

    If you believe that democracy will work, then go ahead and start educating 100 million illiterate Pakistanis and end the feudalism, slavery and get rid of your servants and sweepers child labour and the cooking mai – sure after all that we may have a chance but before you can even talk about it, you need to qualify it first.

  52. iMusafir says:
    January 1st, 2007 2:18 pm

    PLEASE tell me what is democracy and if it exists anywhere? India? USA?

    Jamhooriat woh nizam hai jis main
    Bandon ko gina jaata hai, toula naheen jaata!!!

    http://usa.mediamonitors.net/content/view/full/39262

    Jalal-e-Badshahi ho ya jamhoori tamasha ho!!!

    And for supporting Musharraf – well there are people who supported likes Jen. Diar and Henry Kiss.!!!

  53. Daktar says:
    January 1st, 2007 2:49 pm

    [quote comment="22953"]Whatelse is so right or righteous about Pakistan or Pakistani citizens[/quote]

    The question is not what is ‘right’ about Pakistanis, the question is what is so ‘wrong’ with some of us that we cannot even call something that is so blatantly wrong, wrong. Thank you for giving us a demonstration.

    No surprise, then, that so much of the world thinks we are violence prone. You are right, police brutality happens in many places (like rape). What does NOT happen in most civilized places is otherwise decent citizens defending such brutality (or, in the other case, a President accusing the rape victim of benefiting from her rape).

    Luckily, as the comments here show, most Pakistanis are not so callous as to defend such a practice.

  54. Baber says:
    January 1st, 2007 4:34 pm

    [quote comment="23070"]
    If you believe that democracy will work, then go ahead and start educating 100 million illiterate Pakistanis and end the feudalism, slavery and get rid of your servants and sweepers child labour and the cooking mai – sure after all that we may have a chance but before you can even talk about it, you need to qualify it first.[/quote]

    So untill we qualify democracy we should have dictatorship?
    Isn’t the corrupt democracy a result of years of martial law or this kind of democracy always brought by dictators.

  55. Abizaib says:
    January 1st, 2007 5:04 pm

    Daktar, I am happy to see that this matter is settled: you good I bad.

    Glass is either half empty or half full. I agree to disagree but can’t accept someones imposed views upon me – Whether I condemn (I don’t defend it rather refuse to condemn it) it or not is my problem and not yours and you should be able to accept it, since I accept your reasonings. Isn’t this what your democracy is all about? Lets see some demonstration of what you preach…

    Also will be keeping a running total of condemnations from your types once the democracy [read: aristocracy] “returns” [read: farse] to Pakistan. Tell me your democracy is so decent to honour Supreme Court of Pakistan
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sajjad_Ali_Shah#The_Attack_on_Supreme_Court“>Supreme Court Attack

    I wonder what you would have said or done if this happened on Musharraf’s watch.

  56. Abizaib says:
    January 1st, 2007 5:36 pm

    Link for above comment seems to be broken. here it is again:

    [quote comment="23227"]
    So untill we qualify democracy we should have dictatorship?
    Isn’t the corrupt democracy a result of years of martial law or this kind of democracy always brought by dictators.[/quote]

    Is it? Its funny that you call Musharraf’s Govt dictatorship? You all agree that there is no martial law right now – correct? What would you call Zia’s regime? Nazis?

    How can you achieve “democracy” when the environment is not right? If it takes an honest and sincere “dictatorship” to create the environment, then let be it.

    Civilians obviously dont have the discipline nor the balls to counter Sardars and their peasants and many other important issues – they are part of the problem. How do you explain that when the Sardars are part of the problem and sitting in the government? You seriously think their peasants can vote for Sardar other than theirs? Wouldn’t that be rigging, or aristocratic, or cheating?

    Also they have known to have problems with country’s defense department. Rather than working together, they create rifts, promote generals for political gains, and politicize army – their own created monster that comes back and bites them on their asses…

    A statesman who understands all this whether army or civilian needs get these out of the way, work towards creating positive and workable political environment and then get out of the way when its time. We are not there yet rather in the middle of this process…

  57. Baber says:
    January 1st, 2007 7:01 pm

    COAS President = Dictator. There is no Martial Law but he COAS is running the country, he calls the shots.
    So we can’t have democracy because we have few sardars?. I am from Balochistan I know that Makkaran Gawadar, Panjgur, bigger cities of Balochistan, where there are no Sardars plus no gas and electrcity in most parts. Most of the sardars you talking about are pro establishment like Jamali, Jam Yousuf and Yaar Mohammed Rind. Sardars control small areas and less then 3 million out of 9 million approx population live under the sardari system. So don’t blame everything on sardars. I am not a supporter of sardars but I have heared enough about “sardars blame game” and making them the scape goat for democracy.
    Anyway, I found this on the internet for supporters of Musharraf:
    “Musharraf claims to have the support of 72 out of 75 Baloch Sardars” (Dawn)

  58. Abizaib says:
    January 1st, 2007 7:51 pm

    Baber, I mentioned Sardars as one of the problem not all of the problem. Can you address the other problems please? Don’t be selective in your response and use Sardars as an escape goat to end your rant.

    “Musharraf claims to have the support of 72 out of 75 Baloch Sardarsâ€

  59. Daktar says:
    January 1st, 2007 8:42 pm

    [quote comment="23239"]
    Also will be keeping a running total of condemnations from your types once the democracy [read: aristocracy] “returns” [read: farse] to Pakistan. Tell me your democracy is so decent to honour Supreme Court of Pakistan
    Supreme Court Attack

    I wonder what you would have said or done if this happened on Musharraf’s watch.[/quote]

    Since you ask. I would say exactly what I felt when the Supreme Court storming happened. It was one of the saddest days for Pakistan. It was a deplorable and shameful act. Even more shameful than the attack was how the Sharif government tried to manipulate the court before this attack. By the way, Musharraf manipulated it in exactly the same way (seeking new oaths and changing judges) once he came in.

    Let me anticipate your next question, I think the ordering of diverting the plane with Musharraf by Nawaz Sharif was not only deplorable it was a criminal act. It has always escaped me why he was not brought to justice for that? Who is Musharraf to forgive him on behalf of all the other passengers whose life were put in jeapordy?

    Niether of the above takes away from or is a justification for the unconstitutional act of imposing Martial Law (I am sorry, calling it by another name does not make one hoot of a difference). That was a personal power grab and every indication is that Musharraf would have done that anyhow, only later (if not, then he should have left by now, now that his ‘job’ is done).

    But you know what, this is not about Musharraf. There are things he has done that are good things (read my comments on other posts here). The corruption of Benazir’s goevrnemnt matches the institutional machinations of Nawaz Sharif and the arrogance of the Musharraf regime. But the point is that there are some whose allegiences lie with people (certain people can do no wrong, or they can only do wrong). There are others amongst us who assess things on principle. I guess, that is really where our true difference of opinion lies.

  60. Abizaib says:
    January 2nd, 2007 12:34 am

    Right Daktar, not only our opinions but also the priniciples differ. All I am saying is if you want to have democracy, have it all the way – anything half-assed will not be very useful or beneficial. Also to impose democracy without substance and legal framework and proper representation is nothing but a joke.

    These issues and problems need to be fixed by all means before a true democracy can be established. Just to have “fair” elections among aristocrats and form a civilian government does not qualify it as a democracy.

    And to tow this democracy line on false pretenses and lack of infrastructure legally and otherwise will not achieve it. Its like asking a bunch of pseudo and non-skilled engineers to build some fabulous machine without understanding the physics and mechanics behind it – it will never happen or will be seriously flawed. Better approach would be to train and educate these guys and then provide them the opportunity to build this machine. That way they will save time in the long run and would have produced a machine based on solid science whose future scalability and improvements will be dependent upon its strong foundation – the one that doesn’t crumble everytime you build something on top of it over and over again.

    The only key and tricky part is who trains, how, and for how long? So obviously there has to be a transition and some statesman who will supervise this transitional period till the maturity for such a system is achieved. The nation has to trust this person and get behind him with checks and balances to achieve such goals – Otherwise the future outlook will be nothing but hopelessness… repeating the same errors and not learning about what went wrong. There are no short-cuts – but a thoughtful future planning. If a change is proposed, it better be a better and proven one and not the one that reverts back to the failed experiments of past.

    PS: For issues such as this, you can either condemn them or do something about it. It all depends on how you see things and how personal principles and opinions dictate it.

  61. Baber says:
    January 2nd, 2007 1:43 am

    The only reason we don’t have democracy is because of the PAK ARMY interference in politics. We don’t need to have western style democracy atleast the govt should be of people, Look at India they never had martial law. As for failed state status under Nawaz Shariff, you can’t entirely blame him for it , and status has not changed. Do you really think the current govt really represents the people? Don’t try to make democracy sound something impossible to achieve. Its simple PEOPLE’S GOVENMENT NOT MILITARY’S GOVT. Forget the refernce, SARADR and MUSHARRAF same shit, they all together and hurdle in the path of democracy. I have answer to all your question, but then you will ask more questions. I don’t mind but it will be like flodding this discussion board. You can say NAWAZ stupidity led to MUSHARRAF. But what led to AYUB, ZIA and YAHYA. These dictators would make up reason to get in and rule. As for revolution against sardars and establishmnet, I am for it not against it. Seriously, I don’t think Musharraf or any other COAS will bring democracy look at Zia-Junajo Yahyeh-Bhutto. Musharraf’s best friends the chaudhary cousins are no lesser evil then Benazirs gangsta husband.

  62. Abizaib says:
    January 2nd, 2007 2:31 am

    Baber, yes I agree – Lets not flood this board further – its already spilling ;) Just two things I will say before concluding :

    1. It wouldn’t be fair to compare Musharraf with Zia and others before him.
    2. All of us have answers for all the questions – yet fail to uplift Pakistan’s status and stature in the world. Yep, its the military !!!

    So long…

  63. Baber says:
    January 2nd, 2007 4:05 am

    Here is my conclusion
    1. In our history the same patterns keep repeating.
    2. Never underestimate the people even if they are illiterate.

  64. MK says:
    January 3rd, 2007 7:54 pm

    Educate the masses about their rights. Feel the difference…

  65. Rehan says:
    January 4th, 2007 4:06 pm

    Abu Ghreib, Pakistan police style. A blot.

  66. Asif A. says:
    January 11th, 2007 1:41 pm

    Does anyone have an update on this. Has the young man been released?

  67. Salman Zafar says:
    February 1st, 2007 12:42 am

    Pakistan is heaven for all people practicing power, whether its clerical power or presendential power and biggest mistake everyone of us is doing, we are doing injustice to ourselves.

  68. Salman says:
    February 13th, 2007 10:46 am

    The question is what can we do now? You can see the faces of the police officers involved in this shameless act. Example is needed to be set here so that no such incident is repeated again. We should protest but in an effective way. It is necessary to put pressure on govt to get these police officers dismissed immediately. Because if we don’t punish the opressors they get the message that they can strip people in the streets and still get away with it. We should not let them get away otherwise this thing will continue.

  69. March 9th, 2007 1:25 pm

    [...] The move has shocked many, but signs of its coming can now be identified in hindsight. Mr. Chaudhry had served as teh Chief Justice since 2005 and, on occasion, had taken steps that had irked the power structure in Pakistan. According to a Khaleej Times report, for example: Last June, the Supreme Court rejected a government move to sell 75 percent of state-owned Pakistan Steel Mills to a Saudi-Russian-Pakistani consortium for 21.7 billion rupees ($362 million). Mill workers claimed it was greatly undervalued. Also, Chaudhry has heard a landmark case brought by relatives of dozens of people believed taken into secret custody by Pakistani intelligence agencies. The chief justice has pressed the government to provide information on the detainees whereabouts. Talat Masood, a political analyst, said the removal of Chaudhry demonstrated the power of the military and suggested that Musharraf’s government wanted to have a “pliable judiciaryâ€

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