Manan Ahmed (Sepoy @ Chapati Mystery)
The Pakistani Parliament has now passed the bill authorizing Sharia laws in Swat – and perhaps in other territories. Punjab, according to the NYT report, United Militants Threaten Pakistan’s Populous Heart is also in grave danger of going Islamic in a meta-way. Baluchistan has broken out into violence and protests since the president of the Baluch National Movement, Mir Ghulam Mohammad, was kidnapped (along with two other senior associates), shot to death and then their bodies ditched from a helicopter. The primary suspicion falls upon the military or military intelligence. That leaves us Sindh. Karachi, the biggest city in Pakistan, is having a battle of the bands. More seriously, it is also been the scene for ethnic riots against the Baluchi recently.
In the meantime, the Obama administration has, to this point, authorized over 60 drone attacks for an al-Qaeda kill rate of 2%. Wonderful.
So, given all this, is there a likelihood of an Islamic Revolution in Pakistan? Is it Game Over?
Before we get there, I want to review a couple more things about Pakistan and its relationship with its constitutive parts. Swat merged with Pakistan, constitutionally speaking, in 1969. However, it has retained the status as a “Special Area†granted under the Yahya Khan One Unit proclamation of 1955. This special status was is recorded into the 73 Constitution, Article 247. According to this status, they are free to make their own laws and govern themselves. The President can, from ‘time to time’, give some directions to the Governor but the Parliament, Supreme Court or any High Court has no jurisdiction. So, the Swat ‘Sharia’ deal is a capitulation insofar as Pakistan has never amended its Constitution to make the FATA territories squarely under its law. Additionally, the Swat deal seems to be the only way to curb Maulana Fazlullah. If Obama is going to talk about ‘good’ Taliban in Afghanistan, Pakistan certainly has the right to make political negotiations to get a cease-fire. The human impact of the last 3 years on Swat valley has been intense – over 300,000 have fled.
Baluchistan, another princely state which was militarily merged with Pakistan after Partition, had no role in the federal state. After the 1955 One Unit Proclamation, the Khan of Kalat tried again to declare sovereignty. General Tikka Khan (‘the butcher of Bengal’) was sent to Baluchistan in 1958 under Ayub’s military rule to enforce federal writ. Things simmered until Bhutto has to send more army troops against another militant uprising in the region from ’72-74. So, there is no love lost between the center and Baluchistan.
Sindh, Karachi, and the Mohajir Qaumi Movement (MQM) are another beeswax. Only recently, rumors were afloat that Musharraf was cutting a deal with MQM and give them autonomy under a federated Pakistan.
Now, to return to this ‘question’.
I would argue that such a formulation of impending doom is one of the main reason Pakistan is in this mess. There is a rich vein of ‘Pakistan on the Brink’ theorization that has dominated US foreign policy since the 50s. Back then, it was the Communist revolution, and now it is the Islamic one. This particular mind-set has propelled one disastrous policy over another for the last 40 years. We have supported dictator after dictator and stood by, silently, when civilian regimes floundered under internal economic and political crises. Once again, this question dominates the Obama policy and will restrict any real re-thinking of the Pakistan issue or re-evaluation of the regional scene. So, let’s just categorically understand that:
- There is a world of difference between ‘Taliban’ and any given Pakistani citizen, even the most devout believer. The Taliban, strictly understood to be warlords operating with or in support of Mullah Omar, are a very particular political group. They are political. They have political goals. They are not, in effect, a religious ideology that has the danger of sweeping Pakistan. They don’t have doctrinarians or theologians. Al-Qaeda does. Taliban don’t. It may seem like splitting hairs but I think it is very important to differentiate between the historically situated Taliban and the groups that have emerged in Pakistan bearing the name ‘Taliban’. In the later case, the term is actually masking other political goals and differences that we need to be carefully attuned to. Similarly speaking, there is a world of difference between a specific political group, however broadly defined, which can be numbered in the thousands and a state of 160-plus million peoples. The people of Pakistan have demonstrated, through a number of elections over the last 60 years, that they do not want their religious leaders in political power. There is no dismissing that reality.
- The most powerful entity in Pakistan in its national army. The second most powerful entity is its civil bureaucracy. The third most powerful are the landed and industrial elite. None of these entities are about to give it up (whatever ‘it’ is – from nukes to bank accounts) to some ragtag bunch of jihadis. Certainly Zardari, wants to keep everything, don’t you know it.
- There is a robust, active, critical media. A media which has played a prominent role in some amazing events in civil and political theaters in the last 3 years.
So, I reject the premise in which the Swat Deal becomes a stepping stone to the ‘Talibanization’ of Pakistan.
Second, Pakistan has always been the Islamic Republic of Pakistan. Pakistan has always self-imagined itself to be a ‘homeland for Muslims’. The question really is: what kind of a homeland?
Saudi Arabia is a homeland for Muslims. It has Shari’a and a King. Malaysia is another homeland for Muslims – with a different sort of emphasis. Turkey, with its emphatic secularism, falls on the far end of such a homeland for Muslim spectrum. Where does Pakistan fit in? And where does it intend to go? I think that is the more important question. What is Pakistan to Pakistanis now? Who is a Pakistani, in effect? As I pointed out in an earlier discussion on the idea of Pakistan, there has to be a fundamental re-articulation of Pakistan as an entity, as a nation-state, within its constitutive parts. The urgency of this task is evident – there are other claimants with answers. Claimants who carry guns and who can brutalize a population in the blink of an eye. There is also the United States agenda, which continues to treat Pakistan as nothing more than a client-state. Somewhere in this pincer, somewhere between the taliban and the drone, the Pakistanis have to begin forming a sense of their whole. I am not big on nationalism and I don’t think that re-imagining Pakistan as a nation is an easy task, either. But, I am not simply talking about some ideological mumbo-jumbo that Islamabad can cook-up.
The most crucial step is that the civilian federal state of Pakistan has to listen – really, actually, listen – to the people of FATA, the people of N.W.F.P, the people of Baluchistan, the people of Sindh and the people of Punjab. It has to provide its citizens with basic security, shelter and welfare. It needs to protect its citizens from terrorism. It needs to strengthen its civic engagement with non-governmental organizations. It needs to ensure that basic human rights and access to a basic educational system is guaranteed to all citizens. These are actions that can be taken and should be taken and they will have a far greater impact than any 1.5 billion dollar aid. The Pakistan military, and the US, must allow for this. It must enable the state, it must pressure the state to fulfill its pledges to the people. Part of that means a military operation against the Taliban (narrowly defined) and al-Qaeda (defined as ‘foreign fighters’ in the press) in Swat and in Baluchistan. This must be under-taken by the Pakistan military.
From such a process, a major process of stabilization, the state can start to re-build.
It’s a tall order, I know. There are too many de-stabilizing forces. Not to mention, an open question mark over whether there is actual political will to do all this. Yet, I remain hopeful. Pakistanis – however we categorize them – have a lot of heart, a lot of soul and great fortitude. For the last 8 years, they have been paying the price of a proxy-war waged on their soil. A decade before, they suffered through another proxy-war which gave them millions of refugees and a radicalizing ideology. They have persevered. I am still in awe of the hundreds of thousands who galvanized against Musharraf and the millions who cast a vote in the election last year. We must support those many millions in taking the next step.
Manan Ahmed blogs as Sepoy at Chapati Mystery where this post was first published and discussed. This was originally written some two weeks ago. Much hass been happening in these two weeks but the essenace of the argument remains unchanged. Hence it is being carried as originally written.
Very good analysis. With the recent operation in Dir your point is proved even more that the govt and army will not just take the Taliban advance quietly. My only point is that while we should not take the Western hysteria on this seriously, we as Pakistanis should also not be complacent, this is very very serious stuff.
Manan: “The most powerful entity in Pakistan in its national army. The second most powerful entity is its civil bureaucracy. The third most powerful are the landed and industrial elite. None of these entities are about to give it up (whatever
Juan Cole’s posts about Pakistan
“The hype about Pakistan is very sinister and mysterious and makes no sense to someone who actually knows the country.”
Pakistan Crisis and Social Statistics:
http://www.juancole.com/2009/04/readers-have-written-me-asking-what-i.html
Take a Deep Breath on Pakistan:
http://www.juancole.com/2009/04/take-deep-breath-on-pakistan.html
Rarely we see an eye opening honest analysis with such details. The truth is, the third most powerful group as you pointed out is really The Most Powerful Group in Pakistan. They were the reason we had the separate state to begin with, with millions of atrocities over the people of India & Pakistan. They are the reason we lost East Pakistan. They are the catalyst who are hogging up all our resources. They are the biggest thugs of our nations. They are the reason and Bhutto was part of it, that all the basic necessaties that he promised with “roti, kapra, makaan” were completely forgotten.
I don’t understand why all our politicians and army biggots, that have done Pakistan absolutely no good, are so freaking near sighted. Not just that, they have turned our police, our military against their own helpless people many many times. Do you realize why a policeman never has his proirities right? instead of serving the nation, he is only satisfying his supressed lunatic ego. Our army keeps taking over the country only to send it years behind. Any our political leaders are the biggest shitheads. Its their monopoly. No matter what they do, we elect them again, because they don’t let anybody else come up. If I am the only leader, I will sure get elected.
Unless this system is changed, and some leaders start value human beings, nothing will ever change. Near 180m population, people are most powerful, but they are like rats trapped in a wheel, that gets no where, only exhaust us. Unless their is accountability, nothing will ever change. Unless we start looking beyond Balochi, sindi or punjabi, nothing will ever change. Unless we start respecting human values, nothing will ever change. And if nothing changes, sufferings will not end and the beast will possibly collapse. We need to understand this and change for our children, so that they can live a better, happy, prosperous life.
Interested readers can also see my piece today, in this same series:
http://www.chapatimystery.com/archives/homistan/will pakistan_become_a_theocracy_iii.html
I think the points are sound. But there is too much danger in this type of thinking that leads to “No problem, lets ignore this” ain’t a big deal. The US media is reading this wrong, yes, it always does. But this IS a big deal. Not for the US but for us Pakistanis.
By the way, I am not sure whether I am that concerned about what the NYT is saying. They will always get it wrong. But there are too many Pakistanis who are also getting this wrong and worrying more about why the NYT is so worried than about why they themselves are not worrying enough. That is what worries me.
I guess for Pakistanis living in USA it is a big deal what the NYT thinks, but for the rest of us what is scary is what is happening IN Pakistan… Peshawar, Lahore, Karachi, everywhere.
I am sorry, I find some of the early argument disturbing. So, are you saying that since Swat has different constitutional history so we should not worry about it as being part of Pakistan? You may not have meant it this way but reads like the typical Karachi, Lahore, Islamabad babbu argument that since this is not affecting my life and all the killing is happening away from me and my family, let me not worry about it until they come to me. It does not matter if they are doing this in Swat or Baluchistan, all of us Pakistanis everywhere, even in USA, should be very very worried.
I think Sepoy hits the proverbial nail on the head as it were. The US media (NYT et al) looks at it from an understandably American perspective, but that is a viewpoint devoid of in-depth understanding of pakistani civil society and power structure. the landed elite seem not to exist in the the US perception, and as such their influence and stakes are ignored.
However, like Hanif and Ali have noted, tis still a grave, grave threat nonetheless and one hopes that the military and government will finally wake up to the seriousness of the dangers we find ourselves in at this moment in time.
Sepoy in part III of this piece (on his blog): speaking of NYT op-ed in particular and the increasing bogeyman syndrome in general
I would like to mention a couple of things regarding this article. Just because our forefathers made a mistake of giving different statuses to different parts of the country (FATA, PATA, FANA etc.) doesn’t necessarily mean that we have to relive those mistakes over and over again. These areas live in an atmosphere of uncertainty and get overlooked when it comes time to invest in infrastructure.
These different areas are run under different rules and regulations and that weakens the federation and gives people a strong foundation to launch separatist movements.
Also I would like to state that your mention of Musharraf seriously considering autonomy for Karachi is the first I have ever heard and I like to stay in touch with the happenings in Pakistan very closely. If this is a Rumor spread by those who wanted to make an underhand comment about Mushy’s ethnic background, then it is one of the most pathetic and shameful act to divide the people of Pakistan. You are only helping those hands by mentioning a rumor on an international blog.
Manan Ahmed would be good as an ostrich. Or maybe the Captain of the Titanic.
I agree that Pakistan will not become a theocracy. Because our civil society is strong and our media is outspoken. I think that the real strength of Pakistan is not its government and not its military, it is our civil society.
As long as people speak out, as they have been on this website. As long as people like Hasan Nisar whose video was posted here and people like Adil Najam are speaking out, we will not become a theocracy. Never underestimate the power of the person who will insist on speaking the truth.
GOOD ARTICLE.
the most important thing is that the Taliban are NOT Pakistanis and Pakistanis will not stand for Taliban. Not even in Swat will this last.
Never underestimate the power of the person who will insist on speaking the truth.
No doubt. The Taliban must be quivering in fear at the thought of someone *gasp* speaking the truth against them.
the most important thing is that the Taliban are NOT Pakistanis and Pakistanis will not stand for Taliban.
Really? Good to know. Now we can all sleep well.
Pakistanis are like sheep easily led to their slaughter. If you think Pakistan is a secular country, it is not. Maybe once upon a time it was when the educated ruled but not any more. Sorry to say that.
Once Punjabis were proud and strong now they are being kicked around in their own house and the best part is this, that I believe they are also part of it. Sorry
Excuse me, it all looks crap to me who has been living in Pakistan since its establishment. Pakistan is definitely going towards theocracy, if it is not already so. What else you call
“Somewhere in this pincer, somewhere between the taliban and the drone, the Pakistanis have to begin forming a sense of their whole.”
Could not agree with you more.
Wrong analysis will result only in wrong solutions.
First of all, it is true that the army is the most powerful entity in Pakistan is true. However, your conclusion that it will not give away its power to jihadis is doubtful. After Zia’s indoctrination camps these have been a regular feature of our army with the result that a very substantial part of lower and middle ranks actually identify themselves with jihadis.
Secondly, your premise that Pakistan has always been Islamic Republic of Pakistan is also wrong. Please read the words of the founder of this nation to realize that it was never intended. The subsequent breed of politicians in their arrogance ignored Qaid’s message. People should have their religion, not the State. Once we grant a religion to state, we already taken the first step to theocracy.
Nicely written but wrong-headed argument.
Why do you feel compelled to argue to the US or NYT. This is our issue and it is very real issue for any Pakistani anywhere in Pakistan. This attitude that it is happening in Swat which is so far away and I do not need to worry about it is exactly what got us here.
All three of the premises are wrong:
1. There is less and less of a difference now between ordinary Pakistani and Taliban because people are buying into their sermons of hate because they are so fed us.
2. The Army is no longer the strongest institution in Pakistan. Musharraf destroyed it too. It is because there are no strong institutions in Pakistan that the taliban are succeeding so much. They are now the strongest institution.
3. Yes, the media is independent but unlike the judges movement, this time the mainstream media is very pro-Taliban itself. Have you ever heard Hamid Mir?
Superficial analyis. A lot of facts missed here. Do you really think that 400 taliban can hold their own against 20 to 40 thousand of our troops. UNless ofcourse as discussed in our media, they have been and still are bed fellows. It is now public thta our army played a disgusting rile in swat crisis and the whole tragedy was nothing but to fail the nationaist governmet of ANP. Its a firm belive in army that talibans are true muslims and patriots and a proxy against nationalist pakhtoons. THe media has been aware of it. THey questioned army’s role in swat. Why the SWATI’S WERE LEFT ALONE. What happend to Pir Samilullah. Why the army retaliates only when THEY suffer casualities as in case of Banu. WWhy FC and police is left on its own.
Why .4 million people migrated from swat. HOw 4000 held sway over 2 million people of buner and swat. It was only through our army. Do you really think that peopel of swat where 80% are associated with the hotel industry wanted a shariat like this one. Imagine a tourist heaven/hell where you dont have a TV. You cannot listen to music. You cannot record your memories. YOur spouse has to wear a shuttle cock and you have to don a beard with your shalwar above your ankles. YOu cannot have privacy atleast 5 times a day. YOu must present yourself not before God but the Mullah. Swatis are smart people. They never wanted such shariat. So please next time, present a relaistic indeptrh analysis.
Typo-mistake. Its 4000 and not 400
another denial story
Let me add my worthless analysis to the list of armchair analyses on this posting :). Even if these dreadful forms of life known as Taliban overrun Pakistan, nothing is forever. These beasts lasted 5-6 years in Afghanistan, a collection of tribes and ethnicities that produced and incubated them in Pakistan with the connivance of the CIA and Zia’s ISI. When they took over Afghanistan it was nowhere close to Pakistan in any sense. Pakistan will break up only if the United States invades and divides it ala Iraq. That doesnt seem possible given they are over stretched and took almost 15 years from Vietnam before they could conduct an overt war with anyone. CIA’s foolish theory that India will take Sindh and Punjab, Iran will take Baluchistan and Afghanistan will take over NWFP has me LMAO. This is not a statement based on fake patriotism. It’s based on the overall situation in these areas of Pakistan. Who in their right mind would want to touch these regions of trouble. Would they be willing to facilitate Pakistan’s breakup?We don’t have oil and we’re not Christian (East Timor anyone?) who would do it? Slum dog millionaire India? Its in bed with the US and pregant with US dollars riding the tide of a make believe super power and trying hard to come up to China. Would it risk all that it has earned overnight to own and operate a broken and fragmented Pakistan? What will happen to this broken Pakistan? will if evaporate or dissolve?
Too bad the US lost the opportunity to use Pakistan as a true and loyal ally like Israel. Had it invested in Pakistan since it’s inception in 1947 like it did in Israel (the only other country established on the basis of religion) we would have seen different results today. The Israelis have had a lobby in Washington for the last 100 years, we didn’t. But we were more subservient than the Israelis and never stole technology, spied on and bit the hand that fed us or had the awareness of rights and the experience of living in a civilized societies of Europe. We were slaves to the British for 150 years and could have proven to be an excellent subservient satellite state for the United States. Repetitive failure of US-Pakistan relations is solely the failure big brothers foreign policy. Where does our responsibility lie? We were a nation of 70 million bhooka nangas in 1947 crying about what we didn’t get from India and lament that to this day never asking ourselves what we could have done or achieved had we been nation with self respect. We sold ourselves to the dollar everytime without thinking about the consequences and far reaching implications of our short term actions on ourselves and our future generations. So we have no right to complain and blame every tom, dick and harry on the planet. We have ourselves to blame when it comes to introspection. Yes we will not become a theocracy because history has shown theocracy has failed every time. Infact any form of absolute philosophy that usurps the rights of many and puts power in the hands of a few has failed. We may not live to see a theocratic and barbaric Pakistan overrun by the beasts of extremist theological following fail in our lifetimes but they will fail. A new Pakistan or a newer race will rise from the ashes of the coutry our forefathers put together. Religion has no place in the echelons of power. It’s rightful place is in mosques and churches for people to seek solace. History has proven that over and over again.
AN EXERCISE IN GRAND DENIAL!!!
“Taliban are NOT Pakistanis and Pakistanis will not stand for Taliban”
-Then why not kick them out; and if they resist, why not liquidate them?
-Or one should wait till they become a menace and nuisance like LTTE in Sri Lanka , and then deal with the Talibans the way Lankans are dealing with LTTE now after so much cost and misery
It seems that people in Pakistan have forgotten- A stitch in time saves nine .
I am sure that pseudo-liberals of Iran must be giving same verdicts, as Mian Manan is doing here, about the virility of Iranian society before it fell to the Mullahs.
Gordon Brown was given a cold shoulder by Zardari. Now thats a gesture of a proud nation.. Now lets wait for his apology.. Zardari’s I mean…
Looks like Mian Manan lives in some other Pakistan.
Point 1 is completely false. There IS a great sympathy on the right towards Taliban. Yes, if you chose your friends carefully then there is a difference. But just go to any mosque in Pakistan and you will see how much the difference is. You can even go to a mosque in DHS in Lahore and talk to any praying retired brigadier and it will open your eyes. So, please do not make arguments based on your hallucinations.
Point 2 is somewhat justified, but there is a great possibility of these classes joining hand with Taliban.I nfact this seems to be what is happening in these deals. If America goes away from this region, they will live more peacefully together to make the life of the people of this country and the countries around more hellish, as they had been doing before America came to Afghanistan.
Dont forget, after all they have been traditional allies and on top of that, indoctrination can play wonders. Remember Ch. Nisar’s rhetoric only 3 days ago? that he and Taliban are brothers and Islam’s servant.
regarding point 3, I would remind you that urdu media is actually one of the biggest asset for the Taliban. I seriously wonder which country you were talking about in your article. As for the civil society, it is realy realy very weak. On their own, they cant bring 200 people to the street. If you were misguided by the lawyers movement then I will remind you that it was tugged by the engine of JI and N-league.
That the NYT does not get what is happening in Pakistan is not news.
That many Pakistanis also do not get it is sad.
Sophmoric analysis with more bombast than substance.
I this k people are bring unfair to the author in thief comments. He is clearly sdyingvthst Zpakistan has to fight Tdliban but on our own terms and not through misplaced US policy. What part of that is wrong?
GUYS GET ONE THING STRAIGHT: Taliban are our enemies.
I’m please requesting pakistaniat.com not to upload the pictures of taliban. They’re scary. They give me nightmares.
Dude, what are you trying to say?
“sdyingvthst Zpakistan has to fight Tdliban”
??
Taliban have no future for the following reasons:
You can’t force people do adopt anything and they do,
They are bullying Pashtoons, who hate to be told what to do,
and they don’t have it what it takes. They don’t have organized anything
The question is how do they have so much influence then?
The answer is it’s the influence of those who are pulling the strings.
Tell me how in the world 6 pickups with less than 100 individuals walk into a town of Buner (a million pop) and take over. It’s ridiculous!
Big time Nura Kushti!
Wisen up folks.
Interesting article. Although we should not overblow the Taliban threat, but you seem to be taking it too lightly.
This time in support of author’s view. Check this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_3h3TXV-Es&feature=channel
“Baluchistan, another princely state which was militarily merged with Pakistan after Partition, had no role in the federal state.”
Now that is a stupid statement as they come. Manan Ahmed, the author of this article does not even know that Balochistan was and is not a “princely state”. Balochistan is a province of Pakistan and was not “militarily merged with Pakistan”. The province has its own provincial assembly, federal participation, and has full and equal representation in National Assembly and Senate in Islamabad. The Chief Justice of Supreme Court of Pakistan is a domicile of Balochistan as is the former Prime Minister Mir Jamali. Since this article is a re-post I strongly suggest to the editors to verify the contents or issue a disclaimer. ATP stands for better journalism that this weak and factually incorrect article.
This is how Taliban Issue can be taken care of
1. Army takes a serious action.
2. Allow local population to take action. They will need funding and support.
people are fed up with Taliban.
The local population of SWAT and rest of NWFP has suffered enough.
PAK. ARMY GENERALS: Haven’t you earned pocketed enough dollars already? Why do you have to make the poor people suffer? Take action now.
Footnote: It’s become widely known that ARMY is doing this to keep it’s pipeline of dollars intact.
Bilal,
Again with conspiracies? Army is doing this to keep the dollars flowing? Nura Kushti?? Come on people wake up!!
Denying the fact that we are confused on this issue will not solve the problem at all. There is a strong and vocal following for these terrorists in Pakistan. Some of that following comes from religion and some comes from the frustration and hatred of America, both equally empowering the culprits.
The fact is that the maulvi who issue fatwa that one can not attend the funeral of fallen Pak Army soldiers who have died fighting these terrorists receive a warm welcome when he comes out of prison.
The fact is that people come in droves to attend the memorial ceremony of the terrorists of Lal Masjid while the families of the real heroes remember their sons quietly.
The fact is that your “free” media portrays the Pak Army as a vicious force who is out to kill civilians in FATA and most people take it on face value.
The fact is that all former ISI chiefs (except Gen. Talat) show their mugs on T.V and call these animals “our own people” and how these people are necessary for the defense of Pakistan.
I have said it before and I will say it again. Pakistan Army can not and will not fight a battle that does not have an overwhelming support from the public. If the public remains confused, the army soldier who has to pull the trigger in the heat of battle shall remain confused too, after all he also comes from the same public.
It doesn’t make sense. Not a whole lot of it. It’s a trendy thing this, slamming pakistan internationally. Everyone is doing it. The media gets a dramatic story out of it, the politicians get brownie points for it, and Pakistan’s enemies get a kick out of it. What we must do, is to continue to talk positively and highlight the positives in Pakistan (yes there are many, including this blog). In fact, this blog is more like a national treasure for Pakistan.
KMF
We have our heads buried in sand hoping that this curse of God on our homeland will just wither away in thin year. Events of the last 2 days where the Pakistan Army is sending these thugs to their well deserved eternal abodes in hell speak on the contrary.
I was listening to an episode of Capital Talk (from yesterday) and couldn’t believe my ears. The federal minister Awan was defending these murderers along with Hamid Mir, the host. I don’t know if they are just trying to protect their skins or if they meant what they are saying. No one dared mention that they have murdered with impunity anyone who dared to stand up to them in Swat to achieve this deal. They are not questioning the expansionist designs of these taliban, where they only took a month after the Swat deal to start their land grab and enter Buner. They are also not questioning the impunity with which they murdered 5 to stop the resistance on the ground by the civilian population of Buner.
The only leadership that we are showing right now is coming from the Pakistan Army, which has very clearly stated that they will stop these thugs. However if the rest of the country does not wake up to the threat that they face, no one from outside will come to save us. We still have time, but it seems that it is hard to wake the Pakistani nation from the slumber they are in.
Auk,
You should watch the fresh episode of Bolta Pakistan if you thought that Capital talk was unbelievable.
http://awaz.tv/playvideo.asp?pageId=3327
@auk:
Do you really believe that our army is serious in defeating these murderers?
Well, then please care to explain how a bunch of illiterate thugs (not more than a few thousand – nay- maybe a few hundred) were able to take control of such a large territory?
Wake up, friend. Army is part of the problem, not part of solution. Generals need to be put squarely under civilian control (just as they are everywhere else in the civilized world.)
If Army wants, they can easily remove Taliban.
They wanted it in the last few days. And SEE what they have achieved. I guess the upcoming meeting in Washington needed some action. (;-)
Go up there boys! Beat some A@@. We need more $. Said the cigar smoking General.
Question to all Army sympathizers: Why doesn’t Army just go in SWAT and do the same as they did in Buner and Dir Yesterday?
People of SWAT would love to get rid of Taliban. But I guess it’s not in Army’s design.
They have surrendered SWAT to Taliban.
BTW, did the deal mean Surrender?
The U.S. should stop all funds to Pakistan. It’s about time this country stood on it’s own foot.
Remember folks majority of these funds go to Generals’ pockets anyway. Whatever is left is spent on maintaining the no-good military machine of the great army.
What good is this great army if it can’t even displace a few hundred thugs. If it can’t even defend its government’s writ?
Do they need a referendum on this?
Well, your political leadership is so confused and corrupt that they will not give you a referendum.
If you want to see what the public wants, go to Dir, SWAT and Malakand. Ask those thousands of displaced people who have run away from Taliban.
Army: Shame on you for evading your responsibilities for a few dollars.
Taliban: Shame on you for brining such misery on the poor people. Remember, Pashtoons never forget to take revenge. They will come back after you. It may be 30 years from now but they will come back and haunt you.
We need a leader like BB at this moment. If you remember her press conferences after she was attacked, she was very vocal against the extremists and very direct in telling that people of Pakistan do not want their system imposed on Pakistan. And she had the political capital and courage to go along this line even if she had to do it alone. Unfortunately none of our leaders is trying to lead (except Altaf), they are just being lead. At this point Zadari should have come on TV and announced an all out war against the Taliban and let the barking anchors do what they want and let the political opponents show their cards where they stand. He would have certainly found that most of Pakistanis are by his side on this matter. But no, he is not willing to show leadership, he will rather go on a foreign trip or try to deal with under hand with lips stitiched. Infact BB’s death was the biggest loss to our nation in recent time. Nawaz Sharif, if he had any brains could fill this up but he choses to go along the likes of Ch. Nisar.
@Babar,
Agree on BB. She has been a leader with some backbone. Had she been here we wouldn’t have Taliban now? That’s why Army removed her.
Disagree on Altaf. His organization is similar to Taliban. Both use force to bend people to their ways. Also, his orginazation is another creation of Army, just as Tablian is.
Agree on Nawaz. He is a dummy.
As a matter of fact. In Pakistan, you can’t find a single leader. I guess it’s a reflection of our people.
Rizwan, You try to deal with these butchers without the Army and then you will understand where the Army stands. I have written this somewhere else on these pages, but they took control of Swat by simply terrorizing the population on the ground. There were a number of murders in Swat (30 atleast) of the civil and political administration, where anyone who was anybody (councilor, nazim, police officer) was abducted and then butchered. There are reports that Peshawar is not a safe place to be now, as people are picked up for ransom, and people won’t send their kids to play outside. What can the Army do in such a situation? Cops are running scared as so many of them have been murdered. The problem lies with the leadership of the country (political leaders and all), who need to rise and declare war against the enemy. However they only appear to appease the enemy at whatever chance they are getting. They think that if they just do that for a short while, the problem will go away. The problem is not going away like that. Blaming America and everyone else for this will also not cure it. You have to confront the enemy as a nation and there is no other way out.
If U.S is serious in eliminating Taliban threat from the region,they need to initiate diplomatic dialogue between the nations of the region to ease Pakistan’s concerns regarding Indian threat.
Pakistan’s military and intelligence services continue to support some of the Taliban in Afghanistan and Pakistan.We have to find a diplomatic and political solution through dialogue.
It gives me a good laugh when people try to scare me from Talibanization. I find them silent or abusive when I “dare” to ask them to enlighten me about the definition of Talibanzation.
The problem is not “Taliban” or Afghans etc. The problem is Islam and it’s implementation in real life at state level in the form of Shariah. It has made our liberal and secular community sleepless(Ref: as some “Enlightener” said here that he/she can’t sleep anymore). Every liberal is afraid of implementation of Shariah. The funniest part is that 1)they don’t even know “A” of Shariah 2)They’re still opposing it because that’s how they could earn scores in the eyes of Goras and other mentors in India, USA,UK etc.
If these Talibans were busy in spreading secularism via suicide bombing and what not then all of these intellectual souls were going to embrace it like a religion. So it’s like living in fools’ paradise that one thinks that they hate “Talibans”. They despise implementation of Islam in Pakistan regardless of who do it and why do it.
I am not his fan but he does make sense when he talks about the hypocrisy which two extreme groups of left and right wings don’t want to digest.
jang.com.pk/jang/apr2009-daily/10-04-2009/col2.htm
The Pakistan Army has been fighting these terrorists thugs for years and years. The fault lies with the people of Pakistan who chose lies, denial and conspiracy after 9/11, and continued to provide support, recruits, money and shelter to all types of terrorists. Witness the heroes welcome the cross-dressing Lal Masjid mullah just got.
In such a situation Army alone cannot win. It is time for the people of Pakistan to admit their mistake of having a soft spot for OBL, Taliban and any other “jehadi” group and to support the Army/state organs in eliminating this threat.
Dear Adnan,
People wont even laugh at your mumblings anymore. Things have gone too far for you to defend the murders in the name of Shariah. And yah, I being a secular dont like to love under shariah, but I am not afraid of it. Because I know humans will always progress forward, not backwards. Do you realy think that americans are reading these blogs and send out green cards and dollars to those who comment against Taliban? As for your charge that whoever is opposing shariah does not it, well if you remember, I have exposed you fully sometime ago ( when you were up defending your heros in Lal Masjid) about your knowledge of Quran and how you make up things and attribute it to Quran. This shows that you dont even know about the soucres of shariah itself. So please stop playing this game of I know more than you just because I have a beared. Ofcourse it would be stupid for any body to claim they know everything about any of the subjects in the world, but based on my previous interaction with you, I am pretty confudant that I can beat you hands down on the knowledge of Quran.
It is simply ‘Do more’ vs ‘Give more’ game as far as the states are concerned. Only the Taliban with their suicide bombers are serious. The result is quite obvious.
In fact, extremism can be matched only by extremism. History shows that it was only the ‘Khalsah extremism’ of the Sikhs which could beat the Talibani like extremism during the 19th century in this very theater. State actors who know only to play Noora kushti are obviously no match for it.
How could you guys laugh while you guys are restless of having “nightmare” about Shariah in Pakistan? *grin*
Babar’s response have made em to comment about the “ignocent” (those who are ignorant and “innocent”) attitude of anti Islam guys aka Seculars/Liberals that they are “against” violence and barbarism.
I don’t need to go far. On this particular site I have seen liberals busy in chanting to kill all those who they agree. As I said earlier that extremism is all about mind set and today Pakistan has been suffering due to two extreme cult that is right wing zealots and secular and liberal fascists who believe in violence. When they say that “we don’t kill others”, they actually fool themselves only since they are the one who are living in Utopian land. Pick any English paper where you will find these enlightened souls busy in convincing their Masters back in DC to come and kill those who they disagree. I am talking about tribesmen who they don’t consider humans. Therefore killing of kids,men and women in FATA bring smile on their faces. They try to impose their sick views when they ask us(the masses of Pakistanis) to get into the war and fight. After all those guys don’t agree with them and don’t wear designer suits hence kill them or they prefer a religion over a region(WEST) hence they should be killed.
So those ignocents who try their level prove themselves innocent and peace lovers wickedly deny how they preach extremism and killing in their own writings. You will find these extreme mind throwing up fire in their writings and provoke govt to keep killing those who talk about the religion. I did write about such fascists element who are busy to provoke others for a war:
kadnan.com/blog/2008/10/11/this-is-our-war-ok-but-who-will-fight/
As far as how my dear friend Babar innocently asked that how do “they” get dollars. My friend,most of such liberals reside overseas and you would not find them courageous enough to say anything which is against American Interest. They know that they day they say then they will b kicked on their backs and would be deported back to their pinds where they would not find such luxuries which they enjoy in US or other western countries.
Babar sahib, you might be dreaming but the fact is that majority of Pakistanis knows that how liberal NGOs are funded by Western orgs to preach about the policies which those western guys can’t preach directly. These NGOs are no different than a prostitute who gets ready to “Serve” those who pay her. This is the reason you will not find these NGOs whine about Dr.Afia or women killed in Balochistan and several women rights issue but they will always be up to chant on things which they find “Islamic”. these NGos and like minded run away from Islam just like an infidel depise Ka’aba.
Therefore Babar sahib, I second what someone said here that extremist liberals and right wing guys don’t even represent 1% of entire Pakistani society. They live in their on worlds where they rule over themselves only. The majority of Pakistan don’t even pay attention to them and people like me are always entertained by liberal writers here and there when they despise a group of right wing extremist while protecting the interest of another right wing extremists(back in US ). In short, it’s hell funny.
No matters how much seculars dream, the fact remains same that people of Pakistan love Islam and wants to implement it in daily lives despite of they have no clue how it should be implemented. They might not be regular and practiced Muslim but they get excited and give respect to a paper on road just because they found the name of Allah and Muhammad(saw) on it. A nation where people happily keep their shops and company names as “Makkah Tea house” or ‘Madina Travels’ can’t be convinced for secularism at all which exist in books only rather than in real world. Maybe secularism exist in Utopia where you guys live most of the time?
“They despise implementation of Islam in Pakistan regardless of who do it and why do it.”
@Adnan:
You are right.
If what Talibans are implementing is ‘Islam’, then for heaven’s sake, I don’t want Islam in Pakistan.
If ‘Islam’ is all about killing innocent lives, then count me among apostates, right at this moment.
@ Adnan…
you spewed: ‘They despise implementation of Islam in Pakistan regardless of who do it and why do it.’
I wont even bother trying to ridicule or destroy this asinine statement from you….but I will say this….
If what is happening in Swat and FATA is your version of Islam..then consider yourself welcome to it and wallow in it…
I dont want any part of it…..!
@ Amir Ali…
I couldnt agree with you more when you wrote:
‘The fault lies with the people of Pakistan who chose lies, denial and conspiracy after 9/11, and continued to provide support, recruits, money and shelter to all types of terrorists. Witness the heroes welcome the cross-dressing Lal Masjid mullah just got.
In such a situation Army alone cannot win’
The martyrdom that our soldiers embrace fighting against these Khwarhji’s is cheapened by that fact that it is done fighting for this cowardly and confused mob of a nation…
i am not in favor of Taliban Islam because it is not true Islam it is Wahhabi Islam .
The world will be a much better place when people who claim to be defenders of religion realize that it is fundamentally irreligious to force others to conform to some religious norm. The Quran clearly says that the only judge for whether somebody is virtuous or not is God. If humans start becoming judges of others’ character, it is the highest form of sin, since it involves pretending that one has the powers that God does. Similarly, other religions essentially say the same thing – that only God (and the person himself/herself) knows what is in somebody’s heart and can judge that.
Religion can be a positive force in society if it makes people look inwards, to strive to be better people, to judge themselves. It is not a necessary condition to achieve virtue, but it can be helpful as it externalizes a difficult internal challenge and in the process makes the challenge somewhat easier. But it has been cause for great trouble and strife whenever humans have used the pretext of religion to judge others.
In the long term, survival of the human race will depend on whether we successfully convert religion as a force to judge oneself (if at all one is religious) and prevent it being used to judge others (or at least prevent actions based on such judgement). Societies that have become more secular over the years (not necessarily irreligious, but secular in the sense of separating laws from religion) have moved along this path, using the might of the state to prevent people from taking action based on judgement of others derived from religion and punish those who do it anyway
Getting off my soap box now. Thanks for reading this.
Folks! Take religion out of this. This is not about ISLAM.
Also, don’t place fault on the people of Pakistan.
I don’t think the fault lies with people of Pakistan.
The fault fully and squarely lies with the ARMY.
There are four reasons for why the responsibility of removing Taliban lies with the ARMY:
Firstly, majority of people are poor and hardly care about what happens in other parts of the country. Their major concern is food and shelter for their immediate family.
Secondly, who created this monster? Was it the people? No it was the ARMY.
Thirdly, the Army has been in control of Pakistan since it’s inception and especially the last ten years. Their rule has eroded all institutions including building of political leadership. Repeated martial laws in Pakistan has been the core reason for lack of political leadership. People didn’t get a chance to churn out the bad politicians. Evolution didn’t take place.
Fourthly, law and order is the purview of security forces. In places like SWAT, where police has no power, ARMY has to step-in. But please be quick and get it over with. Don’t play games of HEAT-ON and HEAT-OFF. Get it done. One week’s sustained effort is enough to root out all Talibans. Show some guts and leadership. You want me to show you. This is how. Cut off all supply roads to SWAT, assassinate Sufi, Fazal and other hunchos. Move in.
Someone in this forum mentioned that Taliban are so vicious they killed 30 people in civil and political administration. JEE WIZZ. Does that mean you would abandon a major city (SWAT)?
What will happen if a group commits 30 murders in Lahore, Karachi, New York or London? Will the security forces pack and leave town. Will they wait for the politicians to pass legislation? Isn
I hope you are right and Pakistan will not become a theocracy. But I do wonder!
Secularism is misunderstood by most Pakistanis.It stands for separation of religion and state.It is not against religion its roots can be traced back to early Islamic philospher Ibn Rushd.
There is more religious freedom in U.S than most other countries definitely more than in any Islamic state.
Another fallacy is that Taliban or Wahabis are not real muslims.
Is The Pope Catholic?
The version of Islam practised in most Arab countries is much closer to Wahabis or Deobandis rather than Sufis or Brelavis.
Greatest Islamic scholars, Syed Qutb and Maudoodi preached similar ideology.
Secular Wahabi
Secularism is misunderstood by most Pakistanis.It stands for separation of religion and state.It is not against religion its roots can be traced back to early Islamic philospher Ibn Rushd.
There is more religious freedom in U.S than most other countries definitely more than in any Islamic state.
Another fallacy is that Taliban or Wahabis are not real muslims.
Is The Pope Catholic?
The version of Islam practised in most Arab countries is much closer to Wahabis or Deobandis rather than Sufis or Brelavis.
Greatest Islamic scholars, Syed Qutb and Maudoodi preached similar ideology.
Secular Wahabi
@Zia m: 95%+ Pakistanis don’t even give a damn to secularism neither they are willing for it. One likes or not but Pakistanis don’t wish for secularism at all. Bitter but true.
it’s the dream of liberals who have been enjoying life in western countries and preach every thing of west regardless of its a crap or useful thing. You give smile when you say there is freedom of religion in US as if everyone else does not know how a community is mistreated over there?
Reality is, secularism does not exist in real world. It’s in books only and those who preach secularism are themselves confused enough that they don’t know about it. They make lame mistake to compare Christianity with Islam while there is no comparison between two other than both religion belongs were originated from the sons of Prophet ABraham(AS). Nothing else
I might add that people don’t give a damn about Islam too.
Religion is used to convey anger about other issues.
Poverty is the key issue. The have-nots are so much poor and those in power so much rich that this anger is always on the table for a Taliban Leader.
Pashtoons also don’t like to be pushed around especially by foreigners. To counter that, the term Jihad is very conveniently used.
There is a big hope and that’s from Obama. This guy has brains.
He seems to understand that these people cannot be gunned down. They must be uplifted from their terrible economic conditions. And that will be not only be good for the people of FATA, but also for Pakistan and America.
On the other hand, if the Bush-era Kill-them-policy continues, every child that is orphaned or displaced will be a potential terrorist.
Army also needs to have a reovery plan for those who are affected by their wars that they unleash for $$$ or to pacify their foreign masters.
What will happen to those who are affected by these wars?
You know, the most amusing thing about the comments here is that they always seem to regress to a conflict between Islam and Secularism, which at least IMO they’re not.
PPl who think this is about Islam need to think abt whether extortion, intimidation, destruction of schools (it hardly matters whether its boys or girls’) etc is really the kind of Islam they want.
And ppl who think this is abt Secularism need to ask themselves whether the secular agents in this country e.g MQM, PPP and their numerous corruption scandals, elitist attitudes and gang warfare is really what could be expected of ppl with ‘secular’ attitudes.
Best wishes/ Salam (whichever you prefer…:))
This is not about one religion,its about Theocracy that includes all religions Christianity,Hinduism,Islam,Sikhism,Buddhism or Judaism.
Most Pakistanis believe in democracy,they have always rejected the religious political parties.Taliban know that they can only come in power by force.They have made a blunder in declaring other religious parties as Kafirs.
@Adnan Siddiqi
Most Pakistanis don’t believe in science,they rather believe in all sorts of superstions.Some of the Ulema in Pakistan claim they don’t need nuclear energy they can harness energy from Jinns,after all prophet Suleman was able to put an army of jinns to work more than 2 thousand years ago.
There are some Christian Fundamentalist (American Taliban) who are very vocal against Muslims.Don’t blame secularism for that, religion is clearly responsible.You can call it a family feud since they are sons of Ibrahim.
The same right wing nuts were responsible for putting Bush in office with disastrous results for the whole world.
Peace