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The (Very) Strange Case of Raymond Davis

Posted on January 30, 2011
Filed Under >Adil Najam, Foreign Relations, Law & Justice, People
203 Comments
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Adil Najam

UPDATE POST HERE: March 16, 2011: Raymond Davis Released! This Story Ain’t Over Yet!

Strangely, the more we get to know about the case of Raymond Davis, the less we seem to know. Even more strangely, the fact that the entire incident happened in broad daylight and in front of dozens of witnesses seems is itself confusing the facts rather than adding clarity. Moreover, it seems that no one seems to want to get much clarity either; although different parties may want different parts of the story to ‘disappear.’ The incident was rather eerie and disturbing to begin with; and it continues to become more so.

Here is what one does know. Raymond Davis, a staff member of the US Consulate in Lahore shot two Pakistani men dead on Thursday in a crowded part of Lahore (Mozang Chowk), according to him in self-defense. A US Consulate vehicle that rushed in to ‘rescue’ Mr. David then ran over a third person, who also died. A murder case was then registered against Raymond Davis, who was handed into police custody. A case has also been registered against the driver of the US Consulate vehicle that ran over a third person, but the driver has not yet been apprehended. After a fair deal of scrambling by both US and Pakistani officials on what to do or say, the positions of both have now started becoming clear and they have taken the stance that is usually taken in such cases: the US is asking that Raymond Davis, as a diplomatic functionary, should be handed back to them; Pakistan seems to be responding that the matter is sub judice and should take its course.

Beyond that, there are more questions than answers. For most part, these questions fall into three categories: (1) Questions about who is Raymond Davis? (2) Questions about exactly what happened at Mozang, Lahore? (3) Questions about what should happen now ?

On the first question, earliest reports suggested that Raymond Davis was a “technical adviser” and a “consular” official. More recently, US Embassy officials have described him as a “functionary” of the Embassy assigned to the US Consulate in Lahore and carrying a US Diplomatic passport. Reportedly he was hired at the US Consulate in Lahore as a security contractor from a Florida-based firm Hyperion Protective Consultants. All of this has material relevance to whether he would enjoy diplomatic immunity or not, but even more because of the apprehensions of many Pakistanis that he could be linked to the CIA or to the infamous firm Blackwater (later renamed XE Services).

And that leads squarely to the second question: what exactly was happening at Mozang? Very much in line with the immediate knee-jerk reaction of many Pakistanis, an early commentary by Jeff Stein in The Washington Post seemed to suggest rather fancifully that the shootout could have been a “Spy rendezvous gone bad?” That would be a conspiracy theory, but not an entirely implausible one. Mozang is not a part of town that you would expect too many foreigners, let alone a US official, visiting; and certainly not in what was reportedly a rented private vehicle. And while Pakistan today is clearly an unsafe place, the question of just why an Embassy official was carrying a firearm be wished away. On the other hand, however, Mr. Davis claims that he shot in self defense as the two men on the motorcycle were trying to rob him at gun point. Anyone who knows Pakistan knows all too well that this, too, is entirely possible. TV footage and reports coming immediately after the incident showed one of the young men lying dead with a revolver and wearing an ammunition belt. And certainly, the question of why at least one of the two young men on the motorcycle was carrying a loaded firearm cannot be wished away just because he had “dushmani.” Indeed, serious questions need to be asked about just who the two young men on the motorcycle were, just as they need to be asked about who Raymond Davis is. There just seem to be too many unnecessary weapons in too much proximity in this story. All of the many explanations that are floating around are very disturbing, but also very plausible. Which is exactly why this story is even more dangerous if left unresolved.

Finally, the third question – which is now getting the most attention – about what should happen now. Much is being made – maybe too much – about the Vienna Convention and its implications for diplomatic immunity. Familiar diplomatic games about the minutia of vocabulary are being played and will in most likelihood result in all too familiar results. That is exactly what one would expect in any such situation anywhere. But this is not ‘any‘ situation’; and this is not ‘anywhere‘. This is about US-Pakistan relations: there is just about nothing that the US can say or do which Pakistanis are likely to believe, and there is just about nothing that Pakistan can say or do which Americans are likely to trust. Which is why getting stuck in the intricacies of the Vienna Convention of 1963 is the exact wrong place to get stuck. This is a time for public diplomacy: certainly from the US and maybe even from Pakistan. It is not in America’s interest to be seen to be standing in the way of justice and due process. And it is not in Pakistan’s interest to be seen to conducting a flawed process of justice. There are too many people on the extreme in both countries who will not and cannot to change their opinion and apprehensions about the other. But there are even more people in both countries who could all too easily be swayed to the extremes on distrust if this delicate case is not handled with clarity and transparency by both countries. Doing so will probably bring with it more than just a little diplomatic embarrassment. Not doing so can only bring worse in the tinderbox that is US-Pakistan relations.

203 Comments on “The (Very) Strange Case of Raymond Davis”

  1. Jawed says:
    January 30th, 2011 11:59 am

    This is America’s Faisal Shehzad moment!

  2. HarOON says:
    January 30th, 2011 12:25 pm

    This case does boggle the mind. It could well be that they were robbers and this was self-defence. But what the hell was he doing there, in a private car and carrying a gun!!!

    And who is the US trying to fool by trying to have him look like a ‘diplomat’. if he was, he was a mighty bad one.

  3. Gardezi says:
    January 30th, 2011 12:34 pm

    Is it just me or is it that both the Pakistan and the US media is more quiet about this than you would expect them to be. And why?

  4. Safar Shah says:
    January 30th, 2011 12:45 pm

    If this was self-defense? why did he get out of the car after pumping 12 bullets into two to take digital pictures of them with his camera? why did he try to run away? there was police near him who would have not dared to mistreat a Gora. While running away they ran over and killed another Pakistani, where does self-defense come into play there?

  5. Yahya says:
    January 30th, 2011 12:49 pm

    @Safar Shah.
    Did he “take pictures” or did he “run away”? Or maybe he took pictures while running?
    What you say makes no sense. Which means its nonsense!

  6. Lahori says:
    January 30th, 2011 12:57 pm

    I think that the US Embassy is making up lies about who Raymond Davis really is. But why is our media also not telling us who those two men really were and they were going about with guns on morotcycles. Their guns are as difficult to explain as Davis’s.

  7. Safar Shah says:
    January 30th, 2011 1:02 pm

    @yahya, read the news to get the non-sense out of head.

    He shot them first through the window of his car. Got out of the car shot them again, took pictures. Threatened others who were around. Got back into his car and sped away, injuring many other who got in his way. Does that help?

  8. Adnan says:
    January 30th, 2011 1:24 pm

    From todays papers, a mask(Niqab) and a GPS system was found out in cars. What a US consulate person has to do with a GPS system and a pistol?

    It’s interesting to note that Reymond has served in Afghanistan and was expelled few years ago from Peshawer as well due to his “weird” activities.

    I’m sure this topi drama will end soon and Zardari Regime will release him after doing some “deal” with US.

  9. Omar Salam Ansari says:
    January 30th, 2011 1:27 pm

    Let us see.

    1. A diplomat who did not wanted to be identified as a diplomat (he was travelling in a local rented vehicle). <- this can mean that he was planning a murder and run away cause it was very easy to be identified as a diplomat otherwise.

    2. A robber that was displaying too much of ammunition (if they were there to rob then they should have been carrying lesser weapons). <- this could mean that they were there with primary objective to kill the person.

    3. The run away vehicle hits another man (a panic state of driver to get away at any cost). <- The Pakistani mob is very dangerous thing, they flog the victims first and then make up stories to cover the incidence.

    4. The US is demanding the man to be released under diplomatic rules (diplomats do get immunity). <- but this immunity means that they are to be tried of their crimes in a foreign land in their own courts.

    Consider:
    Salman Taseer dead only a few weeks ago. <- Religious tensions at their height.
    Tunisia and Egypt burning down. <- Anti-corruption movements to look forward to and that also from brother Islamic countries.
    Continued militancy in many parts of the country. <- Anti-US and West sentiments are growing specially with the growing collateral damage for the Pakistanis
    Current govt. at a very unpopular level. <- Many factions want to blame everything on the current rulers and have a fresh start for themselves

    One wrong decision and the mobs will start moving in the streets.

    And now the Conspiracy Theory:
    The Diplomat was en-route to purchase information about the whereabouts of the targets in tribal areas. It was a trap laid down by the militants. They wanted to kidnap him and get information about the spies within their ranks who were continuously selling information to the US consulate. When they US embassy person opened fire they backed out because killing was not the prime objective. The US now wants the person out because he has too much information that must not reach the Pakistani ISI and IB.

    … and I bet that before tis incidence the name 'Raymond Davis' was never mentioned by the US authorities as the embassy staff that are to get diplomatic immunity. (note that the important clause of geneva conventions states that the immune persons should be pre-declared their immunity status and not after they have committed some crime).

  10. Adnan says:
    January 30th, 2011 1:28 pm
  11. Adnan says:
    January 30th, 2011 2:07 pm

    It’s interesting(but not surprising) that those Western funded NGOs who always get ready to whine to show their “love” for Pakistanis are silent on public killing of Pakistanis by Americans and then American pressure. This can help to understand how much they really love Pakistanis and who actually control them

  12. SAM.. says:
    January 30th, 2011 4:35 pm

    Well,i think killing someone in your defence is very right,especially when you are surrounded by thieves or dacoits.so if he shot those two guys then he did right on because this snatching n kidnapping thing has been considerably increased in Pakistan and about the rest of story it should be justified and proceeded with the normal usuall practice.

  13. reasonhasvoice says:
    January 30th, 2011 5:43 pm

    Well written.

    I think answer to question one is critical. US state office on day one clearly stated that the persons name is NOT raymond davis and to date they are not releasing name. However this guy’s passport has been produced in this name – implies a cover name and diplomats or even private security guards don’t have cover names.

    No news in US media has shown his friends or family coming out recognizing him. Which is weired because his face is flashed all over media. One should expect the standard CNN’s interview of the neighbor of Mr. Davis by now.

    this wont be easy to sweep under the carpet for both the governments. lets see how this plays out.

  14. Hammad says:
    January 30th, 2011 6:51 pm

    Regardless of the real truth, Urdu Pakistani newspapers have already given the verdict that Raymond is a butcher.
    And based on that, Opinions of Millions is already formed. And Stupids (when they are in millions) are something to be felt threatened from.

  15. Sobia says:
    January 30th, 2011 6:51 pm

    Is Raymond Davis important for USA? Can we demand to exchange him with Dr Aafiya

  16. Adnan says:
    January 30th, 2011 7:06 pm

    Hammad,

    If you have so much sympathy then why don’t you offer yourself on behalf of Davis?

    On other hand, these are latest developments.

    http://www.jang.com.pk/jang/jan2011-daily/30-01-2011/u61042.htm

  17. Jawaid Islam says:
    January 30th, 2011 7:08 pm

    A clandestine operation gone bad, very bad…need facts and truth from both sides, but none will come forth as this is the stuff that international espionage is made of.

  18. Asma says:
    January 30th, 2011 7:54 pm

    I find the comment by @reasonhasvoice very compelling:

    “No news in US media has shown his friends or family coming out recognizing him. Which is weired because his face is flashed all over media. One should expect the standard CNN’s interview of the neighbor of Mr. Davis by now.”

  19. Zubair says:
    January 30th, 2011 7:59 pm

    Very well written and explained. It is so difficult to just make sense of this strange case. And everyone seems to already have answers about what happened and why but very few are clear on the questions. The questions you have identified are the right ones. I have no doubt about Davis being a dubious character. But I also have no doubt that the two men on the motorcycle were up to no good. These incidents are on the news everyday in Pakistan and the evidence is clear that they were also dubious characters. If you read the news or even this blog it is not surprising at all that a foreigner in Lahore would carry a weapon for his protection and also that they would be scared when a mob collects after the incident and will try to flee. Our crowds and mobs regularly kill people. What do we know about those two and what they were up to. That is what I want to know.

  20. USMAN says:
    January 30th, 2011 8:01 pm

    Every part of this story stinks.
    But I am also offended at how our TV cameras are all over the grieving family of the thugs and dacoits who were killed. Makes me think, why we never see any TV camera covering the family of those killed by religious extremists in bomb blasts!

  21. January 30th, 2011 8:14 pm

    Some comments from the ATP Facebook Page:

    - “ITS TOTALY CIA ,,,,,,,TYPE GAME……let see,,,,,,,,,, ke aap ke pass kitni power khey ,,,,,,,,,,,”
    - “Ya banda pakra gaey tu itna rona roo rahay ho Jo American Itnay hazaro Muslims ko mar diya us pa Khamoshi .”
    - “Let the courts decide the future of the man…….however the nation has to keep a vigilent eye on one man who has promised to Americans that he won’t have even a single move without their nod….!!!”
    - “agar is ko chor dia khuda ki qasam pakistan mei inqilab se bee bhar k kuch hojai ga.. sun le ye GOvt phele afia ko saray muslims ko america choren phir is kuttay ko chorna…!!!!:@”
    - “Good analysis on Pakistaniat’s part. What people need to see is that the fault MAY also lie on our part. Its sad to see that people jump at calling it a CIA game or giving this guy the entire blame.”
    - “He has emptied his magazine and brutely murdered two Pakistani citizens and is a cause for the death of a third citizen also…it all happened before the eyes of hundreds of people…..you kill and then ask for immunity….wow long live America…!!!???”
    - “Since the case is subjudice so we all should refrain from comments and let the law of the land take it’s course. However, thousands of Pakistanis die every year and more brutally at the hands of their own. This one unfortunately was done by a foreigner in apparently self defence.”
    - “all the diplomat in the world have an immunity, Paki have no choice, let the ynkee go home please.”
    - “‎1. If he was a diplomat, why was he carrying an armed weapon in the streets? That too is against diplomatic protocols!!
    2. If he was a diplomat, why was there initial acknowledgement by the US embassy of his non diplomatic status ? Surely, they know exactly who is and who isn’t covered by the immunity.
    3. Who was in the third car? that car killed a Pakistani citizen and the courts must ask that individual/s to be presented in court for investigation.
    4. Why were both vehicles attempting to flee the scene of the shooting and the fatal accident?

    Multiple Pakistani deaths have occurred and all Americans involved have not even been identified and presented in court. The court must investigate thoroughly. There has to be some repercussion diplomat or not as clearly even in the best case scenario for the Americans (i.e. they are telling the truth) a number of very serious breaches of protocol and even possible criminality has occurred in the carrying of weapons, death of the passer by and their attempted flee.”

  22. Nusrat says:
    January 30th, 2011 8:17 pm

    If Davis was working for any company or Us consulate then why he has Visit Visa stamped on his passport

  23. Haris says:
    January 30th, 2011 8:25 pm

    Let me tell you what else I find strange.
    The USA media is nearly all quiet on this.
    I am told by friends that the Pakistan media is also mostly quiet on this.
    Pakistan govt is also keeping very quiet.
    Even Pakistani bloggers and US bloggers covering Pakistan seem scared to write anything. Except for this excellent analysis by Dr. Najam, the main Pakistani blogs seem to have nothing. Even WATANDOST which is focused most on US-Pakistan has nothing on this.
    This is story about the silence over this.

  24. Brian says:
    January 30th, 2011 8:27 pm

    USA has something to hide here. I think we should apologize for a mission gone bad. Trying to lie our way out of this and old school diplomacy does not work in the Wikileaks world. Somewhere in the wikileaks you will find who this guy really was and then it will be even worse. Cut your losses. Apologize honestly. First step, say you are sorry.

  25. Aamir Ali says:
    January 30th, 2011 8:31 pm

    The story that Mr Davis was being mugged and so shot dead the two Pakistanis is plausible. Two men riding on a motorbike usually means bad news in Karachi, and elsewhere in Pakistan as well.

  26. Imran Khan says:
    January 30th, 2011 8:38 pm

    I would like to ask the Pakistani establishment as to what is really new here. And I would like to ask Pakistanis as to why get all excited about this at all.
    There were only three people killed. Every day US drones kill you by the dozen, and since it happens away from cameras you go along with slight amount of indignation.
    Where is the justice to those killed in those attacks. By not defending your country men and women and children in those attacks you have demeaned the value of your lives.
    Had such a thing happened in the US, I would be interested to see the response of the US government living up to the Vienna convention.

  27. HaroON says:
    January 30th, 2011 8:40 pm

    Just checked for “Raymond Davis” on Google News, here are the top second and third news item that came up:

    2) Pakistan PM declines comment on US man’s arrest‎ – AFP
    3) Govt not silent on Davis issue: Gilani‎ – The Nation, Pakistan

    Interesting, isn’t it :-)

  28. amin gani says:
    January 30th, 2011 9:29 pm

    man purpses Allah ALMIGHTY DISPOSSES.ALLAHO AKBAR ALLAH IS SUPPER OF ALL,AND ONLY SUPER POWER KAINAT KA MALIK HAY

  29. HMD says:
    January 30th, 2011 10:40 pm

    The specifics don’t really matter that much. The main story is that this guy was an us.gov employee and found himself in an unpleasant situation. He showed remarkable situational awareness and managed to get out alive. If the entire matter had been handled correctly, that is away from media and local police, he would have been sitting in his home by now. The right thing to do is still to say ‘thank you, come again’ and let him go. The longer Pakistani govt drags its feet, the harder it will be to save face in public later on.

  30. patriot says:
    January 30th, 2011 10:50 pm

    Raymond davis should be treated with justice
    as we should not be like the vile ,currupt and unjust american government.I do not blame the american people but blame the government who do not show justice to afia sidiqi.Then another reason why american govt should not be trusted because the chaos which they started in iraq afghanistan and pakistan has spread to eygpt and yemen and they still say we want piece but infact they want to disrupt the muslim world.
    And i think raymond was in that area because he felt hungry for some malng zarda as it is specialty of lahore

  31. Eidee Man says:
    January 30th, 2011 11:25 pm

    Here’s what I think will happen. The courts will find him guilty, but of something less than first-degree murder. He will get a sentence, and he will stay in jail for a few months. Then, when the incident has faded from the public’s memory, he will be quietly extradited so he can complete his sentence in the U.S….and of course he’ll be let free on arrival.

  32. Khan says:
    January 30th, 2011 11:54 pm

    I feel that if the shootings were planned, he would have at least opened his car window but there are bullet holes in the windscreen so I’m leaning towards giving Raymond the benefit of the doubt.
    That said, of course only a fair trial could reveal the truth.

  33. ayyaz says:
    January 31st, 2011 1:22 am

    the website of raymond davis’ employer company , hyperion protective consultants is just a front !! the other black land cruiser is now hidden at, the residency hotel, zafar ali road, gulberg 5, the hideout for the ‘contractors ‘.

  34. faraz says:
    January 31st, 2011 2:30 am

    One question. Will this guy will be bailout. I am sure once he will out of police station, US embassy will transport him back to USA without any care for Pakistani laws.

    If it were not upto gov of Punjab, he would have already gone back to USA.

    Big question is how many CIA operatives are raoming in streets of Pakistan with loaded guns? Are we Iraq or Afghanistan?

  35. Shehzad says:
    January 31st, 2011 2:52 am

    Well said Balay. He is under arrest and being tried in court. The problem is we are signatory to Vienna convention and if he is proved to be a diplomat he goes free. I need not mention here that he is not a diplomat, the ID he was carrying shows him to be Mr. Davis who does not have diplomatic status in Foreign office record. US embassy is now claiming that he is a diplomat and not revealing his identity. It is beyond doubt that they are lying. It is the name the man drives around with and US embassy concealment of facts is a problem, his origins and his circumstances are a problem. He was carrying sophisticated weapons, apparently without lawful authority is a problem, his failed attempted rescue is a problem, his rescue SUV running over and killing some one is a problem. US consulate’s not producing the SUV occupants and driver for questioning is a problem.

    Now there are following diplomatic scenarios.

    1. Although diplomats have immunity against any crime, their native country can and should wave off the immunity on ethical grounds in this type of case. They can plead self defence and let the justice take its course. It is in best interest of US to let go of the EGO and let the case follow its course. This is in the best interest of every one. This may lift US’s moral stature in people’s mind. But they are egoistic bastards and are trying other way. They know it was not self defence.
    2. Our government should hand him over to Americans per diplomatic norms BUT expel US diplomats and call back their diplomats from US. This is what a sovereign country should do. Are we a sovereign country? Let us be.
    3. I hope we follow Tunisia and Egypt in a domino effect and let this be a trigger if our Government fails us again.

  36. Mrs Abdullah says:
    January 31st, 2011 2:58 am

    Pardon me if i sound childish but according to news reported in the past three days it is very clear that this was not a case of “SELF DEFENCE”. For instance what was Davis doing in Muzang area because when these so called diplomats come to a country they are specified about the GO AREAS AND THE NO GO AREAS. Also what was he doing in a local car when they are provided cars with different number plates for distinctive identity. NOW COME THE QUESTIONS. DAVIS SAYS HE FIRED “IN SELF DEFENCE”. AGREED BUT COULD SOME ONE SANE ENOUGH EXPLAIN TO ME HOW DOES ONE FIRE IN SELF DEFENCE AND THE BULLETS PIERCE IN THE BACKS. I MEAN 20 BULLETS FIRED IN THE BACKS OF TWO BOYS AND THE BULLETS WERE OF A TYPE NOT YET FOUND IN PAKISTAN LET ALONE BE ALLOWED HERE. FINALLY THE BLACK CAR THAT CAME RUSHING TO HIS AID HAD 4 PPL, THEY NOT ONLY BROKE ALL THE TRIFFIC SIGNALS ON THEIR WAY TO GET TO MUZANG BUT DROVE WRONG WAYS AND HURT MANY RICKSAW RIDERS AND PPL ON FOOT FINALLY ENTERING THE SCENE FROM THE WRONG DIRECTION ON A ONE WAY STREET AND KILLING A BOY . WAT ABT ALL OF THEM. LASTLY PLEASE ALSO CLARIFY WHO EVER SAID THAT THE TWO BOYS KILLED BY DAVIS WERE CULPRITS OF ANY SORT OR THAT THEY WERE ARMED. I REMEMBER RANA SANA’ULLAH CLEARLY STATING AND ALSO WATCH ON GEO THAT THERE WERE NO CRIMINAL RECORDS OF BOTH THE BOYS FOUND IN LHR OR SHAIKHUPURA. THE FIR FILED AGAINST DAVIS IS OF 302 ON THE REQUEST OF THE RELATIVES OF BOTH THE BOYS.

  37. Mosby says:
    January 31st, 2011 3:51 am

    A few thoughts:

    1) The world deserves better spies.

    2) The Pakistani people need to concentrate more on the price of fuel, floor, land, fabric, amenities, drugs, healthcare, education and life in general instead of blogging the s#!t out of the internet.

    3) If the Pakistani people don’t like the government why don’t they get rid of it? Or become organized enough to make their government listen to them.

    4) Realize that USA is not the enemy here, it is akin to a harmless microbe that has become pathogenic because of the right conditions (corruption, inequity, etc.). The Pakistanis themselves have invited the USA just like the Moghuls invited the East India Trading Company.

    HISTORY IS REPEATING ITSELF, BECAUSE THE FOOLS HAVEN’T LEARNED FROM IT.

    5) Lots of talk of Justice; Where is justice for the scores of women raped by their uncles and then killed by their brothers everyday? For the thousands of people who have died at the hands of extremism of any kind. For the brothers that were killed in Sialkot? For the money that was receieved as aid to rebuild northern Pakistan, but has now gone missing? For the Health and Education budget that are non existent and whatever is allocated never makes it to the institutions that it is meant for. For the thousand who dies in northern Pakistan because of extremism and drone attacks?

    Pakistan is supposed to be a sovereign nation, how is it defending its sovereignty? By letting foreign forces kill its people?

  38. ShahidnUSA says:
    January 31st, 2011 4:29 am

    Here is my little Sherlock Holmes on it.

    If he was spying, he was a bad spy.

    At least he could have put on a turban. Dirty Blond hair, red skin, blue jeans, tall and stocky build stick out in Pakistani public like a sore thumb.
    Whenever I visit Pakistan, I strictly instruct my relatives to please do not advertise me as

    Ye America say Aaey hen

  39. Kafir Per Pakistani Law says:
    January 31st, 2011 7:02 am

    Correction:
    If Pakistanis do NOT respect their fellow citizens, then why they expect others, including Americans should respect them. Did you forget reacent Sialkot or Killings of Ahmadis going on since 1974?
    I friend of mine who is American has put in a very blunt but accurate way. Please don’t feel offended. He said:
    Pakistan is Prostitute of USA.
    Pakistan deserves to be treated the way she is treated by USA because USA is her Paymaster!!

  40. talat says:
    January 31st, 2011 7:14 am

    A master piece of analysis by Adil, except a ‘minutia’ of a word ‘to’ in the closing lines of the article.

    As regards comments on the content I tend to agree with Zubair and Usman. Lahori Mhajaas can go mad on any ‘ziadati’ (felony) except that on the pretext of blasphemy. In fact every body’s reaction is determined to some extent on his personal experience also. They say ‘Saanp ka dasah rasi se bhi darta he’ (once bitten twice shy). Whoever had a brush with robbers would welcome the efficient reaction by Davis and that too so daringly in a foreign land. Such is the state of harassment in our cities these days that one sometimes startles at a high-pitched ‘Salam’ from behind while having a walk outside. The fact is we are at a war, a kind of anti-social war never witnessed before which has made every body a suspected criminal and robber, when, as they say, all is fair. Verily we are standing at the brink of an inferno poised to drop in.

  41. Javed Chaudary says:
    January 31st, 2011 7:20 am
  42. Diplomat says:
    January 31st, 2011 9:16 am

    Excellent analysis.
    The whole debate about the Vienna Convention on Pakistan TV channels is rather silly. Immunity does not mean people can do anything anywhere. It si specific not just to who it applies to but also what it applies for. But frankly, that is not the issue. The issue is to keep this from blowing up into a propaganda device for those who want to further weaken US-Pakistan relationship and that means US has to make sure it is not seen as a bully and Pakistan has to make sure it is not seen as caving in. And all this while following course of law but also not blowing it into bigger than needed. This is the test of US diplomacy as well as Pakistan diplomacy. As Wikileaks shows us, in recent year both have not been looking good.

  43. Durrani says:
    January 31st, 2011 9:17 am

    Here is a little thought experiment please.
    Imagine that exactly what has happened had happened but the person doing the shooting was not this American but a Pakistani. How would we be reacting? What would be different?

  44. Adnan says:
    January 31st, 2011 10:09 am

    “How would we be reacting? What would be different?”

    All liberals and lefts would have started chanting ‘Down with USA’ or ‘Down with Mullahs’. Adil would have started making posts like ‘Pakistanis suffering,Pakistanis crying’. But since it was killed by American therefore they are trembling due to fear in their beds.

  45. Musalman says:
    January 31st, 2011 10:52 am

    Amazing how some people think that the sixth element of faith in being a good Muslim is to be anti-American!
    What if you are anti-american an not a good Muslim!
    Even more complex a thought woudl be teh idea that you can be a liberal and also anti-America!
    Or a fundo extremist (like Fazlur Rahman) and pro-America.
    Wow. That may be too complex a thought for the mullah to hold in their head!

  46. Adnan says:
    January 31st, 2011 12:13 pm

    @Musalman

    So being Fundo Liberal means Kissing up USA and hiding the filth?

    Why liberals are shying away to condemn the killing by Davis? Musalman, do you condemn it and endorse the trial of Davis in Pakistani courts? Do you condemn involvement of US agencies in Pakistan?

    days are gone when ppl like you used to cover themselves by doing Mullah bashing.

  47. ShahidnUSA says:
    January 31st, 2011 12:22 pm

    @ Kafir…

    Now that I know who Ahmadis are and I hope that your community gets the justice soon.
    But I am curious if you know that prostitution is not limited to ‘she’ and ‘her’, there are male prostitutes as well. Are you being sexist? or just because the country is a feminine word?

    I am not promoting here the prostitution which is a horrible profession that spreads diseases and proliferate hurt in the society. But since your friend said that and I dont know what your response was but just for the sake of it, if Pakistanis are doing a prostitution job for America, they are doing a hell of a job but not getting paid as much as the countries like Israel and Jordan.

  48. Monano says:
    January 31st, 2011 2:38 pm

    Another piece of Adil Najam’s enslaved writing. No more comments

  49. Talha says:
    January 31st, 2011 3:42 pm

    I say that Raymond should not be released and should be tried in Pakistan. What he has done is above all type of immunity.

  50. Asma says:
    January 31st, 2011 3:44 pm

    This will be real test of character of our leader. If it was in my control I would have hanged Mr Raymond Davis!!

  51. mano says:
    January 31st, 2011 4:16 pm

    Doesn’t it look like that this incident is just to provoke pakistanis to stand up like egyptians against the corrupt leaders? i.e. if they decide to return davis to US ?

  52. mrs abdullah says:
    January 31st, 2011 6:30 pm

    @ Kafir: Kafir plz make this clear to your self and your american acquintances that WE ARE NOT THE ONLY ONES BEING SLAVES FOR A COUNTRY SO HYPOCRAT THEY THEMSELVES FORGET THER TRUE IDENTITY AT TIMES.
    @ ShahidnUSA: way to go man.

  53. Musalman says:
    January 31st, 2011 7:10 pm

    For Adnan :

    You should ask harder questions. Here you have it:

    - I strongly condemn Raymond Davis and the murder he committed.
    - I strongly believe that killing people like Raymond did is vile and evil and should be punished and condemned by all.
    - I hope that all killers, including Raymond Davis rot in hell.
    - I strongly condemn all drone attacks an all killing and blowing up of people.
    - I strongly condemn all interference of America in affairs of other countries including Pakistan.

    HAPPY… Now your turn.

    Will you and your sidekick ‘monano’ do the same for your hero Mumtaz Qadri and for Islamic extremists… Just write the same sentences as above with Raymon’s name replaced by Qadri’s.

    Let’s see YOU do that now. Otherwise stop yelping and whining!

  54. Aziz says:
    January 31st, 2011 8:56 pm

    The poeple Raymond Davis killed were certainly not car jackers. They know well enough not to touch a foreigner or they would be treated differently than committing a crime against a local. That said, I truly believe the people killed were related to some kind of underground operation by the enemies of Pakistan. So, if they were killed, that is good.

    Now for Raymond. I doubt he is a diplomat. He must be a member of CIA or Blackwater/XE. Both the agencies hardly keep their counslate updated on their activites. It does not matter who he is. He is now in the custody and will either punished or expelled from the country. If he is punished, great. That makes our gorvenment prove that we are not taking any BS. If he is expelled we are getting rid of an unwanted element from our society, however, that does not guarantee that more CIA or XE agents wont come to our country. Our government need to carefully draft a press statement laying down conditions for his deportation from the country. How goverment reacts will pave a way for future relations between US and Pakistan.

    In my opinion, he should be tried in the court fairly. It will be hard to find unbiased jury for him but we need to try and get him the justice. If he is proven to be a CIA or XE agent, punish him and ask US govt. the reason to send him over here.

    It is time that Pakistani govt. stands up and ask tough questions to the US and tell us the truth. I rather hear it from Pakistani government than from WikiLeaks.

  55. Muhammad Moeen Maalik says:
    January 31st, 2011 10:25 pm

    Request to All Pakistani Brothers and Sisters!
    Today our Education Minister ‘Sardar Asif Ali’ told that Raymond Davis has amunity and Govt of Pakistan may hand over this guy to Givt US under the same amunity!

    I request all of you our all Govt officials are pets of US, we have no faith on them so we have to be careful in this senario.

    When there is matter of Afia Sidique then they are sleeping baster.

    Please be careful and lets be ready and if our govt act like a puppit then we have to come out to save dignity of our country.

    Thanks

  56. Adnan says:
    January 31st, 2011 11:16 pm

    @Musalman:

    I don’t know how much pain you would have suffered to say all this but since this time you have no room so you had to say that. I am glad some left wing gotta agree that there’s need to clear up the filth in their own ranks.

    Now what you are asking me, I was asked by several liberal kids here and when I endorsed their reasons, they ran away, so for you, I am also saying that any kind of extremism exhibited by religious parties/person; b in form of killing an individual like Taseer or any one else should not be practiced or greeted by any individual.

    Now, how does it feel? Sounds surprising? may be, but those who spent their lives on this forum know quite well what’s my actual stance. Today one left wing admitted the extremism in his own community, I believe other would do same , specially oldies here. The day lefts and rights started to realize the filth in their own ranks, they won’t get time to pin-point others mistake.

    I don’t know who ‘monano’ is just like I don’t know how many different alias you use while you reply to me. *grin*

  57. Bangash says:
    January 31st, 2011 11:24 pm

    I believe there are no juries in pakistani legal system, just same old judge who sits for decades. If so then Mr Davis is in a strong position, not only did he kill the two muggers in self-defense, but whatever judge who presides over his trial can find him innocent for the same reason that they set terrorists free all over Pakistan “Not enough evidence”.

  58. Sohail says:
    February 1st, 2011 12:47 am

    Who is Davis?

    He’s someone so highly trained that he can rapid-fire nine rounds of ammunition and hit EVERY shot on target. Anyone with any experience of handling handguns will know that is an extremely difficult task to perform, particularly in a hurry and a state of high tension. So, he is no ‘diplomat’ … that much is certain.

    Who are the two dead boys?

    They were a pistol packing, motorcycle riding duo, who had several mobile phones… we all know what the heck they were up to.

    They picked the wrong guy to rob this time. Bad scum, Good riddance.

    What will happen?

    A lot of hu ha from all sides and a lot of hot air and smoke for now. Then eventually the family of the dead robbers will accept ‘khoon-baha’ (blood money) in accordance with Shariah Law and the CIA agent will walk away free.

    What SHOULD happen?

    (This won’t ever happen, but I wish it could.)

    1) At first, Pak gov makes a big issue out of it and after a speedy trial (in a shariah court) the judge passes a death sentence against Davis… That makes World News Headline and everyone gets hyper-excited.

    Then the Pak diplomats in Washington ‘negotiate’ a deal with the American to get some concession as a quid-pro-quo to arrange Davis’ release. In the process they make a politically very popular move by getting someone of great symbolic significance (but low strategic value) released and returned to Pakistan (in an informal, under-the-table exchange) and then Davis’ family (with US backing obviously) offer a handsome amount of blood money to the robbers’ next of kin who then ‘forgive’ Davis and let him go…

    2) Raymond Davis, before he returns home, should be thanked and given a gold medal on behalf of the tens of thousands of victims of routine robbery in Pakistan’s cities and towns…

    He did much the same as the owner of the car dealership on Jail Road, Lahore, did who shot dead the motorcycle riding duo who tried to rob him some time ago. That robber turned out to be a criminal whom the police had been looking for… these scum deserve to run into nuts like Raymond Davis.

  59. Syed Ahmed Peeran says:
    February 1st, 2011 3:56 am

    Well this Raymond Davis (007 in Pakistan) is not a new character in Pakistan, such activities have been happening longtime back. Mr Davis was actually caught at wrong place wrong time and worst than that the Media Mafia is alway there like a ginie telling everything spiced up and sometimes false even. But this time as most of the time Media came out with responsibility and care and we found no exaggeration of any type.

    Im my opinion the court should either give him a life sentence in Pakistan or the death penalty because the way they were fired at does not show that he had the shoot out in Self Defence. And it is further more evident from his physique that he is either a marine or a mercinery or a member of the Notorious Black Water.

    We can also make a deal Dr. Afia Siddiqui for this Davis character, but should also try to get his info done so that we know who actually this guy was.

    But deep inside me I have a hunch that nothing big is going ro happen in this case. Davis gone to the American, Parents of the dead will forget the dead in a short period of time, all other Pakistanis will be busy fighting to survive and one day we hear that it had been a year since Raymond Davis killed two Pakistanis in Mozang Lahore and nothing had been done yet.

  60. Zaheer says:
    February 1st, 2011 4:24 am

    Why is it that the media is not asking any questions about the two men on the motorcycle. Raymond Davis was nearly certainly CIA type. But who were they? They seem even more suspicious to me than him.

  61. Kafir Per Pakistani Law says:
    February 1st, 2011 4:37 am

    @ShahidnUSA:
    “Are you being sexist? or just because the country is a feminine word?”

    Dear i used word ‘her’ because country is a FAMININE WORD.

    ” if Pakistanis are doing a prostitution job for America, they are doing a hell of a job but not getting paid as much as the countries like Israel and Jordan.”

    You’re 100% CORRECT.
    IT IS DOUBLE SAD.
    AMERICANS CONSIDER PAKISTAN A THIRD CLASS PROSTITUTE!

    Well, Israel is NOT a prostitute of America, rather a GIGLO of America!!
    Israel DOES IT TO USA and BILLS for “HIS” services!

    Jordan is relatively a favourite Prostitute of USA, that too beacuse of SPECIAL RECOMMENDATIONS OF ISRAEL. After all Israel-USA plans to carve out a big piece of Jordan and declare it a part of “Free Palestine”.

  62. talat says:
    February 1st, 2011 6:17 am

    @Sohail says:
    (February 1st, 2011 12:47 am)

    “That robber turned out to be a criminal whom the police had been looking for… these scum deserve to run into nuts like Raymond Davis.”

    Very well said, dear!
    Raymond kills daringly two robbery accused, who in my view, are morally blasphemers against humanity when a Qadri treacherously kills one by accusing him of a blasphemy of a religious type. But I wonder why so much hullabaloo is raised against the former, a ‘pardesi’ (foreigner) and a hero is made of the latter.

  63. masoom says:
    February 1st, 2011 7:10 am

    I can’t tell what happened, but I know what will happen. this guy will walk away free. All these statements from leaders are nothing but hoax, to keep public calm, but The driver will be escape goat and will be hung. This is not the first time it happened, but this is the first time it caught media attention.

  64. Monano says:
    February 1st, 2011 9:06 am

    No wonder why Kaafir belongs to the community declared infidels almost unanimously by Pakistan’s elected representatives (headed by the most liberal leader of the time).

    And

    No wonder why Shahid in USA values Pakistan and happenings in Pakistan no more than a series of action packed Hollywood movies he is watching over the cable (for free).

  65. Musalman says:
    February 1st, 2011 9:17 am

    @Adnan/monano
    I was in no pain whatsoever. Enjoyed writing my comment. See how clear I was. Unlike you munafiqoon…. you coudl not even get yourself to once name using the murderer Qadri’s name… not once!!!! Ah, you slaves of killers, just say out once, loudly and clearly that Mumtaz Qadri is a inhuman lowlife as is anyone who supports him or his vile act. Just once, say it clearly. And if you cannot, stop embarrassing yourself with teh whining.

    Just once. Say it clearly. Without this lafaazi and excuses. Just once.

    I bet you will not and cannot because your Taliban masters won’t let you.

  66. USMAN says:
    February 1st, 2011 9:38 am

    Very well written and powerful article. You say more clearly than anyone else has what is evident here:

    1. This man, so-called Raymond Davis is certainly a Blackwater type.

    2. The two men on motorcycles who died were clearly up to some hanky panky. Maybe even more.

  67. Kafir Per Pakistani Law says:
    February 1st, 2011 10:27 am

    @Monano:
    “No wonder why Kaafir belongs to the community declared infidels almost unanimously by Pakistan’s elected representatives (headed by the most liberal leader of the time).”

    Dude, with blessing of 2nd ammendment by Most liberal leader of the time, now in Pakistan everyones belief is questionable. One cannot open his mouth before establishing his credentials of being a “Muslim”. In Pakistan, anyone who things he is a Muslim, there are TWO PEOPLE to call him Kafir.
    Pakistan should be re-named as Kafir-istan. As now in Pakistan everyone is calling others Kafir. And there are more Kafirs than Muslims.

    Yes, it is again the blessings of most liberal leader of the time that Salman Taseer was murdered. The blood trail of murder of Salman Taseer leads straight to Pakistan elected representatives in 1974 and ENDS ON HAND OF ZULFIQAR ALI BHUTTO.

    It is because of that 2nd ammendment that Mulla like Malik Qadri thinks that he has more right to decide who is a Muslim and who is Kafir, and who deserves to live and who deserves to die, than that ALCOHOL CONSUMING MOST LIBERAL LEADER OF OUR TIME I.E. ZAB.

    Monano, wait when you get into the same category of Salman Taseer by likes of Qadri.

    Allah-O-Akbar.

  68. Monano says:
    February 1st, 2011 11:53 am

    Lets stop for a while and take a flashback of right-wing elements of Pakistan, specially the Barelvi sect.

    Until recently, this Barelvi sect (the one Mumtaz Qadri belongs to) was considered much enlightened and moderated as compared to Deoband sect [out of which Afghan Taliban emerged (TTP are not religious, they are just rouges)]. During the whole of Musharraf regime, the Barelvi sect was always brought forward by government of secular elite portraying them as peaceful and patriotic religious leaders.

    This is the sect which denounces Taliban and the secular government gained religious support from this Barelvi element in almost every issue even to the extent of brawls over moon-sighting and Hasba bill with Deoband dominated MMA government in NWFP (now KP).

    Does anyone realise what went wrong which pushed this “buffer element” (between pro-taliban fundamentalists and liberal extremists) into the category of pure fundamentalists???

    Liberals pulled the wrong chord and too hard to make Aasia case an issue rather a stand-off. No one in history has been hanged as yet over blasphemy law. A powerful defence of Aasia in High court could have easily settled the case without making a fuss out of it. And then, in the absence of emotional hype, a logical discussion could be evolved around the law, its interpretation, implementation, proposed amendments or even abolition.

    But with a top government official, hitting the most sensitive element of Muslim faith, specifically to Barelvi sect, in a careless manner and openly announcing to bypass the courts in a bid to free Aasia, things resulted in an uncalled for rise of emotions and murder of Salman Taseer.

    History confirms that Barelvi sect has highest sentiments over love for Prophet Muhammad (SAW), be it the issue of insulting caricatures or knighting of Salman Rushdi. And hitting the core of Barelvi belief in a demeaning attitude had to result in extreme reactions.

    My point is that sensitive issues have to be dealt sensibly. Creating sudden public hype about them means you never want the issue to be resolved.

    This Barelvi sect is most widely rather dominantly followed sect in largest provinces of Punjab and Sindh. Moreover, they have heavy presence in Kashmir and Hazara division.

    Pushing the Barelvi sect and its followers into the extremist category is the most dangerous thing liberals have done to Pakistani society. Why? Because by doing this Pakistani society is now specifically divided in two extremes, there is no moderate element. Now its a question of “either you are with us or against us” situation. So much so that the Quranic-ignorant interior minister of secular government has to take sides by announcing to fire any blasphemer himself.

    At the same time, liberals have now lost the support of even those elements which previously sided with them. MQM did not pray for Salman Taseer in Senate while no PPP leader attended the 40th day mourning service of their own governor.

    Political analysts say that revolutions like Tunisia and Egypt cannot make their way in Pakistan due to the existence of political parties. These parties should not agree on a uniform agenda and hence a real revolution is not likely. Even if a public movement develops into widespread protests and chaos, political parties should defuse the situation over differences of leadership and political mileage.

    But now I dont agree with the analysis in the above para: simply because the divide over extremist attitude has left nobody incharge. Not even political parties have the potential to handle this divide or diffuse any possible face-off between the two sides.

  69. Peace says:
    February 1st, 2011 2:05 pm

    @Monano
    I did not see the response from you to the below comment other than again beating around the bush

    @Adnan/monano
    I was in no pain whatsoever. Enjoyed writing my comment. See how clear I was. Unlike you munafiqoon…. you coudl not even get yourself to once name using the murderer Qadri’s name… not once!!!! Ah, you slaves of killers, just say out once, loudly and clearly that Mumtaz Qadri is a inhuman lowlife as is anyone who supports him or his vile act. Just once, say it clearly. And if you cannot, stop embarrassing yourself with teh whining.
    Just once. Say it clearly. Without this lafaazi and excuses. Just once.
    I bet you will not and cannot because your Taliban masters won’t let you.

  70. Adnan says:
    February 1st, 2011 4:27 pm

    See, did not I say this guy use multiple alias while comment here? :-) an old tactic of liberals?

    The guy use the alias “Peace” and see the hatred in his tone. ;)

    Davis has lost the minds of liberals as they are not finding the room.

    My nannay Mufti and Internet warrior, if writing the name of Qadri is going to give you life then lo, I would rather say k Qadri should be turned into dust or pieces just because he dared to killed a liberal extremist, named Salman Taseer?

    Ab kush? or still pumped up call me a Kafir or Munafiq? ;)

    By the way, is tarha k Fatwa Bazi tu Mullahs ka kaam hay, what happened to you? Why do you guys take shelter of Islam for your own need by using terms like Shaheed Taseer or Munafiqoon. Oh by the way Munafiqoon is an Arabic word. Last time I heard you guys despise Arabic just like an Infidel despise Ka’ba. *smirk*

  71. Bangash says:
    February 1st, 2011 6:26 pm

    If only Raymond Davis had also shot Mumtaz Qadri, Pakistan would have been freed from two muggers and a murderer.

    btw….monano is another name for a mullah troll on this forum who attacks liberals no matter what the issue.

  72. Adnan says:
    February 1st, 2011 7:48 pm


    btw….monano is another name for a mullah troll on this forum who attacks liberals no matter what the issue

    @Bangash: Are you feeling competition? :-)

    What I actually experience that trolls rather bring up Islam or Mullah no matter what’s the issue. The attitude is no different that yanks who blame Osama even if their kids pee in pants.

  73. hishaam says:
    February 1st, 2011 8:38 pm

    If anyone wants to know whats going to happen to Raymond Davis guy, i’ll tell you whats going to happen to Raymond Davis. The court’s proceedings are just a way to shush the angry people of Pakistan and to reassure them that the decision of the Pakistani court is respected and above any other ruling, but in fact they will eventually grant Raymond Davis the diplomatic status and hand him over to the US officials under exigent circumstances. So by the end of this month he’ll probably be playing ball on the Florida beach laughing at all the retards over here who ever thought of bringing him to a civil court for a trial.

    Know that since 1860 the USA has failed to protect only 6 of its citizens from death sentences in foreign countries. And in most cases the life sentences have been reduced from 25-30 years to just 3-4 years by the US government for the US individuals who were charged with crimes like drug smugglings etc, now considering these statistics one can quite surely say that a country such as Pakistan whose very existence depends upon US aid will never act in a manner as to damage those ‘goodwill’ ties with the USA.

  74. Ali Dada says:
    February 1st, 2011 10:41 pm

    First, what is the point of discussing religious v.s. non-religious or blasphemy laws here? The whole discussion is rather off-topic here.

    Back to topic…

    The thing is, we owe to USA big time – they give us aid and directly keep our economy afloat. In other words, we are their employee state. There is no right or wrong here, just the reality and as the old saying goes “Boss is always right”.

    End of Story.

  75. Adnan says:
    February 1st, 2011 10:44 pm

    Ali Dada

    Wrong Example. When you work for your employer, you don;t sell out your souls. By your logic, it’s OK for your boss to kill your parents or abuse your wife or siblings.

    What you are saying is just an example of enslave mentality, in Urdu it’s called “Mai Baap” attitude.

  76. Talat says:
    February 2nd, 2011 4:43 am

    Who can forget a sacrificial ‘dumba’ garlanded by the liars who call them lawyers because he had treacherously murdered, a blasphemy accused, a ‘halfy-musalman’ while Raymond, alone in a foreign land, had daringly and efficiently killed two robbery accused, anti-human, anti-social qadrists. He did this most probably, as per his claim, in self-defense, as no one in his senses, in his position, can dare to kill a native Lahori, in such a crowded place like Mazang Chowk.

    Qadri and Raymond are going to haunt the psych of Pakies for a long time to come as murderers but of quite different kinds.

  77. Peace says:
    February 2nd, 2011 9:24 am

    @ Adnan
    Peace is not Muslman’s other alias but it does not hurt if you keep thinking that.

    And anyone who read my post and your posts can easily tell from whose post hatred is pouring.

    And I see the pain in your words when you mixed your condemnation of Qadri with the words “killing of a liberal extremist”.

    You said Qadri should be turned into dust and pieces and for half of our people of Pakistan he is a hero and they are garlanding him.

    @ Monano

    Where are you my dear????????

  78. Musalman says:
    February 2nd, 2011 11:34 am

    tut, tut, tut, Adnan!

    You still cannot get yourself to condemn the killer Mumtaz Qadri clearly and without reservation and directly. I did with teh US and their drone attacks. Why can’t you say something against this murderer? Have your paymasters told you not too. I guess you are also like Raymond Davis. Doing teh dirty work for your paymasters ‘under cover’!

    BTW, Musalman is my name, not my alias – I will not use another name because I am very proud of the name I have! That is what my parents named me and I take it very seriously because my mission is to keep my religion safe from munafiqs and mushriqs like Qadri the Taliban and their supporters!
    (OK, OK, OK… I know Adnan will now make fun of my name and of Musalmans everywhere… that is what enemies of Islam have alwasy done!)

  79. February 2nd, 2011 4:24 pm

    What the most frustrating part is that the person who was killed for no bloody reason by the consulate car that had rushed to ‘rescue’ Davis or whatever his real name is not being handed over to the concerned authorities. That’s plain ‘badmaashi’.

  80. Khairulbashar Siddiqui says:
    February 2nd, 2011 6:15 pm

    Unfortunately all the above comments make me sad. Do I have any hope for Pakistan? If the most literate of us behave like this, how would the remaining 95% will react. Remember, we all are humane beings, we will have different opinion about everything. We should have a plan to make PAKISTAN a social and just state irrespective of America’s behavior. This incident will have no bearing in a big picture. There are so many Pakistanis, who are killed and robbed everyday. What can we do to stop that. Should we create a parallel govt in every Muhallah run by the citizens.

  81. Ali Dada says:
    February 2nd, 2011 8:49 pm

    I propose the following swap:

    Ted Williams for Raymond Davis … Just imagine Mr. Williams singing Pakistani national anthem, dang!

  82. AHsn says:
    February 2nd, 2011 10:00 pm

    Highly qualified Pakistani Intellectuals from Adil; Adnan, Asma, Aziz to Yahya, Zaheer, Zubair are very upset that the killer of three murdered Pakistanis will not be judged in Pakistan and may be handed over to USA.

    In the history of Pakistan there had been many assassinations of very important persons. It started in 1951 (Liaquat Ali Khan) and the last is the most recent killing of Salmaan Tasee.

    Is there any killer of any of all these murdered persons has been ever judged???

    Pakistan is a “LAND OF THE -SCOT-FREE”

    http://www.newsweek.com/search.html?q=land+of+the+scot+free

  83. Adnan says:
    February 2nd, 2011 11:21 pm

    @Peace aka Musalman:

    I think Reymond Davis has made you insomniac now. I think it’s time for you to go some near by pub and enjoy some “Daru”. You’re completely in state of denial and abnormality because my answer to you was totally unexpected because you were assuming that I would not endorse your comment. Now go and play outside.

    @Ahsn: my french associate, long time no see. No I am not an intellectual even not eligible to be called intellectual in sarcastic tone. No Adil is not worried that Reymond(I would rather call him Jhon Doe since Davis is not his real name).

    The “emotional” Adil who don’t think twice and start blaming every one for any mishap in Pakistan to those who have any slightest affiliation with the religion is NOW trying to be REASONABLE in case of Raymond Davis, I don’t say that he should not be, his tone is right but since there’s double standard from his side therefore I consider it hypocrisy.

    So be it Facebook fiasco or Raymond Saga, Adil would turned to be intellectual otherwise he would be a propaganda machine.

    As far as Davis is concerned, He is an agent and on secret mission and as per US law, detective name can’t be disclosed by any US official that’s why White house spokesman did not reveal the name either.

    And I tell very clearly, this is the right opportunity for both religious and non-religious parties to play safe because right wing parties of Pakistan are waiting when the govt take a wrong step and when they turns things upside down. It’s the real test of wannabe patriot liberals to exhibit their love for the homeland which they use in discussions one way or other. Keeping religious/non-religious different aside, its time for them to show their loyalty for Pakistan rather than West so that they could remove the image that Pakistani liberals are funded by West and they are no differ from Talibans, Ahsn, you don’t know, you can’t imagine the hatred level getting increased after this incident. On other hand the secular PPP party is making sick plans to take revenge from Punjab government to give impression to US that “They” are ready to release Davis but not Punjab.

    Everyone is busy to take advantage without knowing that US is not friend of anyone. See how Mobrak has been left alone. How secular Saddam was left alone and was killed like a rat. But when Allah sealed someone’s heart than nothing good can be seen. May Allah keep safe from such state.

  84. Musalman says:
    February 3rd, 2011 12:34 am

    tsk, tsk, tsk
    Beta why are you still hiding behind empty words and lafaazi.

    Just one line, condemn clearly and unambigously that Mumtaz Qadri was a murderer and he should rot in hell and anyone who supports what he did or what suicide bombers and extremists do is a munafiq and mushriq.

    That is all you need to say.

    Is that too difficult. Do you need written permission from your bosses before you say that.

    So pathetic to see you squirm!

  85. Ali Dada says:
    February 3rd, 2011 1:01 am

    Musalman, leave Adnan alone. He is probably some ‘jazbati’ teenager or a bachelor with no life.

    He really needs to take a chill pill and go offline for a few days…

  86. Talat says:
    February 3rd, 2011 5:46 am

    @Adnan says: (February 2nd, 2011 11:21 pm)

    ” But when Allah sealed someone’s heart than nothing good can be seen.”

    What is left for Iblis to do then and Qadris, etc.?

    And the Mullah, who issue death edicts when Allah says life and death is in His control. They don’t know that Allah may issue their death warrant before the death of their edictee.

  87. Simply True says:
    February 3rd, 2011 6:41 am

    Adil,
    I don’t see the sort of aggressiveness in condemning the murder of three innocent people (or at least the third guy who is clear- cut innocent) that you always show whenever any “mullah type” guy does something similar or even less severe. Is a “gori chamRi” more respectable and impeccant? Why double standards dear?

  88. Musalman says:
    February 3rd, 2011 7:18 am

    @Simply True.
    If you cannot see a difference between a clear case of self-defence (even if by a ‘gori chamri’ spy) and the willful and deliberate murder of innocent people in bomb blasts, then you are Simply Wrong!

  89. ShahidnUSA says:
    February 3rd, 2011 8:21 am

    Hey Manano or me na maanoo

    Do you really think I enjoy watching exploding Pakistanis and getting Injured?
    Action packed Hollywood movies deploy almost 50 people on the security just to make sure that no one gets hurt during the stunt.
    Next time I receive more than 100 dollars cable & high speed Internet bill I would send it to you then it will be all, free.

  90. Peace says:
    February 3rd, 2011 1:27 pm

    @ Adnan

    Any one who is reading your posts and your beating around different bushes is judging you more and more and infact I would not ask you to go and chill but I would like you to continue posting and keep beating around the bushes so that readers of your posts can judge clearly the symathisers and apologists of Taliban.

    @Monano

    Where are you my dear????????????????

  91. Adnan says:
    February 3rd, 2011 2:49 pm

    Koi Aqal k Andho k bataye key jab Goli self defence me mari jati hay tu back par nai mari jati wo bhe car mey beth kar.

    @Simply true, bhai jaan ye log apnay “Mai Baap” ko bura nai kahsaktay. Why don;t you get it?

  92. Simply True says:
    February 3rd, 2011 5:07 pm

    @Musalman,
    And what do you say about my comment in paranthesis “or at least the third guy who is a clear- cut innocent”? I think you’d say he was not innocent as he was a hurdle in the way of a “gori chamri walay ki gaari” who was coming to save another gori-chamris. Right?

    Dude, it’s still disputed (and I am very flexible here when I say “disputed”) that whether Raymond killed those guys in “a clear case of self-defense” or that was a “brutal murder”, but you don’t take a second in just declaring it a “clear case of self-defense”.
    I am not backing suicide bombers who kill innocent Pakistanis and Muslims. No respectable and sensible muslim and aalim backs this. But I’d ask why not your theory of self-defense applies to those suicide bombers who’re killing armed forces in reply to drone attacks? Yes, this suicide bombing is wrong and so are the Drone attackers and Black Waters. Let’s be balanced!

  93. Musalman says:
    February 3rd, 2011 7:30 pm

    @Simply True
    The third guy’s case is clear cut negligence and murder. The car and driver should be caught and tried to the maximum. Actually, even the first two – even if self-defence – shoudl be tried…. this was a US agent acting rashly, even in self-defence…. self-defence does not mean you can do whatever you want. But it does mean that it is very different from blowing up innocent people on purpose like these extremists have been doing.
    My only point is tat it is simply not correct to make that comparison.

  94. Musalman says:
    February 3rd, 2011 7:33 pm

    @Adnan
    We have still NOT heard any condemnation of murder by Mumtaz Qadri from you. Not even a statement a whimper.

    Just say that Mumtaz Qadri and anyone who supports him in in murder or supports what he did is a low-life and should burn in hell and Mumtaz Qadri and anyone who supports him cannot be a friend of Islam.

    Now, is that so difficult.
    I guess your Taliban handlers have not given you persmission to speak the truth.
    Pathetic. You. No?

  95. Dr Khan says:
    February 4th, 2011 1:27 am

    If it was a diplomat in US who had done what Davis has done,would have simply disappeard .We have to admit that we are very weak.If our politicians were a little brave they would not have said”All relys on court”instead they should go against him ..otherwise this will prove that how pressurised we are .It is quite clear that he is working for one of the agencies in US.I think he should be jailed and then watch the real face of US.
    We should stop condeming taliban and their rituals,it simply gives us a hint what sort of uncircumcised taliban we are fighting on our borders and paying a huge cost of innocent people everyday.Its the time we should realize that we are ,what is our ideology and what do we want in the whole reigion.How many drone attacks are we going to bear?Is finding Osama Bin Laden in our markets allowed officially by our rulers?

  96. Zubair says:
    February 4th, 2011 2:15 pm

    Why is MQM quiet on this Raymond thing? Is it because he killed two Punjabis?

  97. February 5th, 2011 12:22 pm

    This is very sad incident of Pakistan history and we proudly gonna release him very soon that would be slap on 180 million people of Pakistan. How they Americans treated Dr. Affia Sidiqui and How we gonna handle this situation very sad.

    Raise your voice join the cause:
    Raymond Davis is terrorist
    http://www.facebook.com/pages/Raymond-Davis-is-terrorist-killed-three-innocent-Pakistanis/159824844066302

  98. Rasheed says:
    February 6th, 2011 6:23 am

    If this guy is released, then perhaps we Pakistanis deserve to be called Pakis. Bay-Ghairat Pakis. We should learn from Egyptians, who have set an example of how to rid a country of slave-leaders. Our leaders for several govts. are slaves themselves and are leading the entire nation into slavery. When American and Britsh slave masters killed their slaves at will, other slaves had no choice but to just keep living and working for the masters. Call me when the Americans release Aafia Siddiqui and Faisal Shahzaad, who are only accused of attempting to murder Americans. No one was killed by them, AFAIK.

    It would be interesting if this guy gets sentenced to at least 86 x 3 years.

    Inna Lillahi Wa Inna Ilaihi Raji’oon.

  99. Adnan says:
    February 6th, 2011 11:13 am

    @Rasheed: There’s a difference. In USA there’s no mental impotency like you would find here. In USA people don’t tremble due to fear that SOME COUNTRY will ruin them. Americans care for their citizens first then anyone else. There’s no such “Liberalism” in USA which make them radicals and to go again their own people while here so called elites are having restless nights, they are fearing that if they say anything against their MaiBaap then they would kick them out of USA and would send them back to their pind. Offcourse they have more fear of USA then the God because they don’t believe in hereafter hence on fear of answerable to Allah. It’s nothing but height of mental impotency.

  100. vaqar asif says:
    February 6th, 2011 12:06 pm

    Was this Davis guy punished.

    But I also want to get to teh bottom of those two guys on the motorcycle. they were obviously robbers. Why is no one talking about them and how they had already robbed another Pakistani right before this.

  101. Frank D. says:
    February 6th, 2011 9:28 pm

    Why has no noise come from Davis’s family in the US. The CNN interviews. The release missions from Jesse Jackson
    Smells real odd.
    I bet there is NO Raymond Davis!

  102. Anti-Rasheed says:
    February 7th, 2011 3:09 am

    @Rasheed: Aafia Siddiqui and Faisal Shahzaad are both convicted terrorists and/or attemptes.

    Faisal Shahzaad admitted to shooting Americans who were sitting in there cars. He wounded 3 and killed 2.

    Aafia Siddiqui was outed by her own husband as a terrorist. When she was arrested, she was in possesion of terrorist materials (recipes for weapons of mass destruction, information pertaining to inflicting mass casualties, hand written notes pertaining to terrorists activities). She tried to overcome and shoot Army officers and was herself wounded trying to escape. During her trial she yelled Anti-American rhetoric at the judge and jury. Stupid.

    I hope these poeple are not your ‘heroes’.

  103. Fatima says:
    February 7th, 2011 4:35 am

    Pregnant widow of one of the victims of Raymond Davis committed suicide.

    Mr. Adil Najam!!! Who would you blame for her tragic death?

    I am sorry for being rude but being a woman i cannot stop myself from cursing the enslaved mentality :@ :@ :@

  104. Adnan says:
    February 7th, 2011 4:55 am

    This post is unfairly harsh on Raymond Davis. If he is an intelligence operative that is a separate matter and should not be confused with the self-defense action that this man had to take against the robbers. I have no sympathy for Davis and even less sympathy for the two robbers who had already robbed other Pakistanis. Why are we so blinded by our anti-americanism that even crimes against others Pakistanis are ignored. The third person who was killed under the car should be avenged and the driver of that car should be caught and given full punishment. The Americans are at least trying to save their citizen even though he is in the wrong. Why we are more worried about our ghairat and national pride than the jaan or maal of our our citizens. We make heroes of those who kill Pakistanis in bomb attacks in suicides and in murder and then cry crocodile tears for robbers and dacoits. What hypocrisy.

  105. Adnan says:
    February 7th, 2011 11:15 am

    Vaqar,

    Let’s assume they were robbers(while reality is different), does this give someone right to kill them? I see how wannabe liberals here cry over suicide killings. So how come those Pakistanis are more holier than these Pakistanis?

    While Pakistan’s toe-licking government has decided to surrender to US’ pressure and releasing the fake “Davis”,on other hand, Fahim’s late wife said”

    “We want blood for blood”. So thankfully, the rise of further extremism and anti-American is expected. I hope next time “the Intellectuals” like Najam would not ask questions like,”Why there’s so much terrorism?”. Ironically, the left wing government is actually doing what right wing of Pakistan desires, to fuel up anti-American sentiments. Well done my friends!

    As I suggested to few liberals, there’s no room for them to promote their liberal agenda. They should rather get prepared for “a great exodus” to states where they can preach their anti-religion belief. Pakistan is not for them. They should ask US to give them some land so that they can form,”Ghair-Islami Jamhoria Secularistan”. Adil could be first PM of that state. :-)

    And those who belong to Silsila Anti-Rasheed are surely smoking weeds. Referring Aafia’s husband to back their radicalism, they might not have idea that Aafia’s husband is a Mullah, a right wing person. It’s funny how these wannabe moderates are banking on his statement. Bravo to mental impotency!

  106. Bangash says:
    February 7th, 2011 7:02 pm

    Absolutely one has the right to shoot robbers.

    Fahim’s widow has died of shame, now that world knows that her husband was a mugger and was shot dead by an American while trying to mug him.

  107. Steve says:
    February 8th, 2011 5:48 am

    This never happens to James Bond.

  108. Adnan says:
    February 8th, 2011 3:03 pm

    @BANGash

    Will you give similar similar to some Pakistani to kill an American due to same reason or some other reason while he/she is in US or else where?

    Do a Pakistani have right to shoot a murderer because he killed 3 people?

    Heck, Will you give same rights to some Muslim in US or elsewhere to kill Americans in self defense or any other reason.

    Don’t run away like other liberal kids and do answer straightforwardly.

  109. Aamir Ali says:
    February 8th, 2011 10:22 pm

    In the US, a Pakistani who shoots two Americans trying to mug him will be investigated, and after verification let go.

    Muslims in US enjoy far more rights than a Pakistani does in Pakistan.

  110. Aman says:
    February 8th, 2011 11:36 pm

    What the hell is wrong with the US ?? I am a proud Pakistani I get every right I need. Its just a a plain murder trying to being masked by the Us. Fahim (the guy that was murdered by Davis)’s widow didn’t die out of shame, she suicided because Pakistani Government is being too kind with Davis. Assume, a diplomatic Muslim Pakistani killing 3 allegedly “robbers”, he would have been straight to prison. Its only a pathetic conspiracy by the US to mask a cold blooded murder. 1st you have to prove that these individuals were really threating you, or were a serious danger to you?? did you get any evidence for this ?? NO. It would be very strange that a Us citizen (assuming him diplomatic) is roaming around in the streets of Mozang Chowk, while he can carry a gun, but can’t get a bulletproof car. (WHICH MOST US DIPLOMATS GET BECAUSE THEY THINK OF PAKISTAN AS AN “UNSAFE” COUNTRY) Also why do you need to photography your victims then talk over the phone? (Because according to the facts, he did so) I mean if you were doing (self defence) people would have testified for you that these were indeed robbers. But The Pakistani Police arrested Davis. Do you think that a us-diplomatic should be allowed to carry a weapon in the first place ?? WHY THE HELL DOES HE NEED TO ROAM INTO SOME RANDOM ROADS IN AN “UNSAFE” COUNTRY ???

  111. Fatima says:
    February 9th, 2011 1:42 am

    @ Aamir Ali

    What do you have to say in response to this video?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNq-SX8Uhug

  112. El Duro says:
    February 9th, 2011 4:16 am

    Yes, sure, it must be okay for ya all paks to see our yankee death; but our yankee had a gun and knew how to use it. Yah, it killed the two paks cuz otherwise he would be death and cold now. Tell ya all this advice: what ever country it may happened to be, do not try pulling a gun on the street, cuz you may get an American cowboy crazy enough to blow the shit out of your stupid brain. Follow the law, this is what you should do. A gan may make you feel invincible, but you are not. You want to go home to your honney? Stay cool, man.

  113. Adnan says:
    February 9th, 2011 12:52 pm

    Brainwashed expats like Aamir continue to live in their dream world.


    In the US, a Pakistani who shoots two Americans trying to mug him will be investigated, and after verification let go.

    Where’s that? why Faisal Shahzad and aafia, American nationals who did not kill any one are still under trial?


    Muslims in US enjoy far more rights than a Pakistani does in Pakistan.

    Quit Pakistan. I already suggested liberals to migrate from “Mullah” country to the state where they can preach their secularism.

    Where’s that Bangash guy hiding?

  114. Naseer Ullah Khattak says:
    February 9th, 2011 3:46 pm

    All Americans are terrorists, America the evil, shoot at sight any American you see in Pakistan. thats the fact of Americans in Pakistani streets, shame on Lahorees

  115. Aamir Ali says:
    February 9th, 2011 8:06 pm

    Naseerullah Khattack sounds like a terrorist. He should be reported to police.

  116. Mota Panda says:
    February 10th, 2011 12:45 am

    @Adnan

    No bhai jaan we’re not going to quit Pakistan. Its easy to sit 3000 miles away in the U.S and talk about the virtues of Secular/ liberal values but the U.S doesn’t need them as much as Pakistan does. So we’re going to stay right here and push for change, regardless of how long it takes

    Have fun!!….:P

  117. Brian says:
    February 10th, 2011 2:48 am

    Maybe the US should just apologize. Once in a while it is good to do that when you are really at fault.

  118. M.Saeed says:
    February 10th, 2011 1:17 pm

    Do we remember Z.A. Bhutto’s episode when he had offended Henry Kissinger by refusing to yield under his pressure? Henry Kissinger during his visit to Pakistan had demanded closing of Pakistan’s Nuclear Programme. In retaliation, Kissinger had sent a harsh letter to Bhutto signed by his deputy, Cyrus Vance saying that: “If Pakistan continued with its nuclear programme “the Prime Minister would have to pay a heavy price”. Kissinger had also threatened Bhutto in the words: “We will make an example of you”.

    That prompted Bhutto to bring the matter to public. Immediately, he held an impromptu public meeting at Raja Bazar Rawalpindi and disclosed some of the letter’s contents saying that, Americans were against him for taking a stand on Pakistan’s Nuclear Programme. Surprisingly, that incident coincided with the start of a joint movement against him, of all opposition parties (PNA) headed by Mufti Mehmud (father of Maulana Fazal-ur-Rehman), which Bhutto blamed was engineered by the CIA, in retaliation. After several rounds of negotiations between Bhutto and the PNA, a final “round-table meeting was held at “Sihala Rest House”, which kept topsy-turvying for several days before coming to a deadlock resulting in the 4th July, 1977 military coup of Zia-ul-Haq.

    Today, almost similar events are being created after the intriguing “Raymond Davis” shooting incident. Do we have any mind to learn from our horrible history of senseless mistakes?

  119. Naan Haleem says:
    February 10th, 2011 4:13 pm

    نابینا جنم لیتی ہے اولاد بھی اس کی
    جو قوم دیا کرتی ہے تاوان میں آنکھیں

  120. Kemal Yaqup says:
    February 10th, 2011 7:45 pm

    I have come to this late but this is one of the most sensible write-ups I have read on this. You raise the right questions. Everything else I have read seems to already have made up their mind on what the verdict is without even considering what questions need to be answered and people are just projecting their biases – pro- or anti-American – on to this story. Thanks.

  121. Abid says:
    February 10th, 2011 9:21 pm

    Great analysis. Indeed rational, its time for us to be rational than emotonal. I am sure relation between states do not hinge upon persons, but then some time they do. Start of world war is a case in point. While I am sure, US and PAkistan would show matuarity in the case and deal with the issue keeping long term strategic relationship; both future as well as past in view. there is a danger that less informed populace from both sides to highjack the whole issue for pure emotional reasons.

  122. Simply True says:
    February 11th, 2011 2:29 am

    “Diplomatic Immunity”. Huh! Double Standards:
    http://jang.com.pk/jang/feb2011-daily/10-02-2011/col1.htm

    Might is right na? What a Democracy!

  123. Naan Haleem says:
    February 11th, 2011 10:45 am

    Mystery resolved or twisted again?

    A news article from this blog’s most quoted newspaper

    http://bit.ly/gKG4a2

  124. Haroon says:
    February 11th, 2011 3:39 pm

    the weirdest of it all is, that – in Pakistan – as on this website – no one really wants to know who the killed person were… Maybe they wanted to kill him – but this, no one really asks. This does not defend R.Davis really, but it’s kind of strange that none is asking this question, which brings me to the conclusion, that they weren’t innocent, too.

  125. 'Counterpunch' says:
    February 11th, 2011 6:22 pm

    Hyperion Protective does not exist though it has a shady website.Check this out.

    http://www.counterpunch.org/lindorff02082011.html

  126. Saleem says:
    February 11th, 2011 9:57 pm

    Good analysis
    But please note that in Pakistan guns are not a rare thing; especially as the family of the one of the two murdered Pakistanis has explained that the man carried the gun as he had enemies and a case was going on in court.
    There is no evidence that any of the 2 men even took out their guns.
    Carrying a licensed weapon is not a crime in Pakistan, and even if it were, is it a reason for a foreigner to give them death punishment?? So please my friends do not be chamchaas of America; you are not going to get a green card in reward

  127. Yoginder says:
    February 12th, 2011 3:56 pm

    This is a lousy piece of analysis. The article itself trying to create a subversive case for handing over Davies to Pakistan.

    The dead person on the motorcycle having a loaded weapon and an ammunition belt doesnt signify anything. How did Davies know that he was about to get shot from two persons, unless he knew the people in advance! One of them even did not carry a gun.

    Any student of basic intelligence training and homeland security analysis would know that covers are not usually blown out in public until the implications of danger are far greater than the blown cover. Davies, like any trained person, had three options. One was to hide, which was not possible since he may have been marked. The other was to let the incoming threat kill him and the third was to overcome the threat while compromising his cover. He took the third option because his being dead would have posed more problems for US than his attackers being dead.

    The question is, what would have happened if such action was carried out in the markets of New York by a Pakistani? What would the US do to that Pakistani?

    What diplomatic immunity or US-Pakistan diplomatic relations would come into play? The author should look at how US has dealt Pakistanis in the past with much less graver concerns than this! There are no diplomatic relations between US and Pakistan except for you give, we take!

    Wakeup Mr. Author!

  128. HaroON says:
    February 12th, 2011 11:17 pm

    Amazing story from the editor of The News, Islamabad. Rings true to me:

    It’s not a rumour, Americans did get Qureshi’s scalp

    By: Mohammad Malick

    The News

    12 February 2010

    When powerful men meet to discuss explosive issues, things can change in a big way. And that is precisely what happened after a highly secretive and immensely important meeting at the Presidency a few days back. The subject, not unexpectedly, being the fate of American killer Raymond Davis and that of Pakistan-US relations. Little did anyone know at the time that the huddle would instead end up deciding the fate of Foreign Minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi.

    The meeting, convened by the president was attended by Prime Minister Gilani, Babar Awan, Rehman Malik, Shah Mehmood Qureshi and the DG ISI Gen Shuja Pasha. The president was given an exhaustive overview of the entire situation but quite early in the meeting it became evident that two of the men were standing on the wrong side of the prevalent dominant wisdom and desire of somehow finding a way to retrospectively cough up diplomatic immunity for Davis and to just wish away all the four deaths and the lingering crisis. But since one of the ‘erring’ two dared not be arbitrarily fired, poor Qureshi’s fate stood sealed.

    Extreme pressure was exerted in the meeting on the former foreign minister to renege from his earlier stance and simply tell the court that the Foreign Office was in consonance with the American interpretation of Davis being a genuine diplomat and enjoying full immunity under Vienna Convention 1961. Facts be damned. According to highly reliable sources, interior ministry’s immense resources were also offered to cause any necessary change of documentation or any exceptional service warranted under these exceptional circumstances.

    An adamant Qureshi, who had strongly argued the case that Raymond did not enjoy unlimited diplomatic immunity under law, flatly refused and even said that if need be, he’d rather resign than become an accessory to multiple murder. The meeting ended on a rather unsavoury and unexpected note. It was a surprising outcome for all the others because Qureshi had always been perceived, and even pilloried by the media, as being an American lackey and was not expected to dig in his heels over an issue so vital for the US administration.

    But Qureshi’s latest run in with the Americans did not begin or end inside the Presidency. It had actually begun much earlier on January 28, a day after the deadly Raymond Davis incident in Lahore. He was in Karachi when he first received a call from US Ambassador to Pakistan, Cameron Munter and then had a conversation with US Secretary of State, Hillary Clinton. Munter requested him for immediate councillor access to Davis and his immediate handover to US Consulate authorities. Qureshi asked Foreign Secretary Salman Bashir to talk to Munter and while authorising immediate councillor access to Davis made it clear to the foreign secretary that the matter of release would only be decided by the court as the legal process had already been kicked into motion in Punjab. Then came Hillary’s call.

    An understandably perturbed Hillary wanted the immediate handover of Davis and insisted that Pakistan was violating the Vienna Convention by the illegal incarceration of a “US diplomat”. Confirming the contents of that conversation to The News, Shah Mehmood said that he had patiently explained to Hillary that while he understood her anxiety she too had to understand the highly emotive and sensitive nature of the incident. And also that since the judicial process had been kick-started in Lahore, the Foreign Office and the US had little option but to submit to the due process of law. Anyway, the two decided to discuss the matter on the sidelines of the then forthcoming Munich Security Conference, and the line went silent.

    Since then, Ambassador Munter and other senior embassy officials remained busy with engaging Pakistani authorities and the Foreign Office, blowing hot or cold, depending upon the level of their own frustration and the pressure coming their way from Washington. A few days prior to the Munich Conference, Qureshi received a call from Ambassador Munter who said that he had been directed to convey the message that unless Qureshi signed the diplomatic immunity paper prior to the conference, the scheduled meeting between him and Hillary would stand cancelled. The message was starkly clear a la George Bush: You are either with us or against us. So be it, Qureshi is reported to have told the ambassador and even cancelled his trip altogether. The chief of the army staff went instead to Munich and that is an appointment that even the US secretary of state cannot cancel, Davis or no Davis.

    Once Qureshi ignored the latest Hillary communique, the Americans stopped talking to him altogether because it had now become evident that Qureshi was not going to budge on his stance of Davis not being eligible for full diplomatic immunity. Qureshi was no longer a welcome dinner guest and neither could he be allowed to remain in office. The last thing Washington can afford is his having a Pakistani foreign minister with a reawakened conscience.

    According to highly reliable sources, the next claimed scalp may be that of the equally intransigent (from American perspective), Foreign Secretary Salman Bashir who is now the only remaining top level hurdle in the apprehended shameless handover of Davis by a compromised political leadership. The foreign secretary is also of the considered firm view that Davis does not qualify for full immunity. And there are legitimate causes for this argument, which were further exposed by glaring inconsistencies in the forever changing US stance on the issue.

    Owing to the paucity of space, irrefutable arguments proving Davis’ ineligibility are not being reproduced here and also because a lot has already been written on the legal aspects of the subject, including the highlighted fact that in the initial reaction by US authorities, Raymond Davis was identified as merely an “employee” of the US Consulate in Lahore, but never as a diplomat. He was referred to as an employee and not a consulate general official. “It was a simple clerical error” was the incredulous justification offered by two senior members of the Islamabad embassy in an off-the-record conversation with the scribe. But it gets even better.

    A lot is being made by the Americans and their interlocutors of the January 20, 2010 communication of the Islamabad embassy wherein the FO had been asked for the issuance of a non-diplomatic identity card for Davis. It is being argued that this communication clearly identifies Raymond Davis as being administrative and technical staff of Islamabad embassy and therefore automatically eligible for diplomatic immunity. But this is only half the story.

    Certain discrepancies in 2010 had already caused the Foreign Office to seek clarifications. In Sept 2009, the US State Department had originally identified him as technical advisor (contractor) going on “official business” while applying for his visa. Later he was attached to US Consulate Lahore as an employee. So when his name popped up again in January 2010, identifying him as being attached with the US Embassy Islamabad, the FO wanted answers to some very pertinent questions. The relevant FO officials repeatedly asked the US embassy to provide the details of Davis’ new responsibilities along with those of his past postings. When weeks had passed with the embassy avoiding a categorical clarification on this count, the FO finally sent a formal Note Verbale to the US embassy on July 8, 2010. It bore ref no: P(1-A)/2009-ID(USA). This note pertained to a total of ten Americans about whom similar details were being sought from the embassy but no response had been forthcoming from the US end. Davis was listed as Note No:252/HR. When FO authorities were asked about the presence of 2009 in the reference number of the note verbale otherwise sent on July 8, 2010, they clarified that it was perfectly in accordance with their internal filing sequence and did not reflect any anomaly.

    Unable to cover this critical gap in their argument to secure Davis’ release on the afterthought alibi of diplomatic immunity, the US embassy has adopted the rather incredulous argument of denying outright the existence of this critical correspondence. The FO has been told at the highest level that the US embassy never received this Note Verbale. The two senior functionaries stuck to the denial mantra when asked by The News about the embassy’s refusal to divulge the real assignments and other details of Davis and nine others. They insisted that all the embassy records had been thoroughly checked but there was no evidence of the cited note verbale ever being received. When they were told that the July 8 note was present in FO records and its existence and its having been sent to US embassy was recorded in more than one place and constituted a process that could not be tampered with within hours of an event taking place, the duo took the reference number of the ‘missing note’ to ostensibly try locating it from their records. This raises an interesting question: if they still needed the reference number at this stage, then how did they even check their records earlier?

    Can you name a single other incidence where prior to this particular note verbale or since, any note verbale sent by FO to the US embassy has ever gone missing? the two functionaries were asked. Not surprisingly, the duo could not cite a single such incidence.

    Interesting coincidence one must say, where the entire US administration makes critical clerical errors which only expose Davis as being a non-diplomat. Another interesting coincidence again, when only one specific official communication out of hundreds of similar exchanges goes missing, and which once again stood to expose Raymond Davis for being anything but a legitimate diplomat on a legitimate diplomatic assignment.
    NOTE:This is a cross post from THE NEWS:

    http://www.thenews.com.pk/TodaysPrintDetail.aspx?ID=3939&Cat=13&dt=2/12/2011

  129. Eric says:
    February 12th, 2011 11:35 pm

    What does this part of town offer a staffer/security expert. Was it an intelligence operation gone bad, or interrupted by a robbery. Was it on operation? If they were targeted, why in broad daylight on a crowded street? Why were they armed, and how did Davis know they would be? Just spitballing. If your rational and wish to discuss. djlp@aol.com

  130. Farrukh says:
    February 13th, 2011 3:31 am

    Word from Washington.
    The force behind the removal of Foreign Minister Makhdoom Qureshi is none other than our own US Ambasssador Hussain Haqqani. When not flirting of twitter with poetry, he has been working overtime in undermining Qureshi both to the US and in Pakistan to Zardari and planting stories in both places about how unreliable a partner Qureshi is.

  131. Omer Ali says:
    February 13th, 2011 11:07 am

    This is one of the very few analyses of this that goes through the issue rationally and raises the right questions. This guy was obviously an intelligence operative as you point out, and not a diplomat. And the two guys killed were probably dacoits since no contrary evidence has been provided yet. Pakistan governments stand on Raymond is the right one, even if they were robbers since that does not change the issue of murder. Self defense or not can be proven in court.

  132. Robby Gonzalez says:
    February 14th, 2011 8:42 pm

    If we had a president with balls, Raymond would be back in the US enjoying a cold one. Shooting two thugs trying to rob you at gunpoint, as your own Pakistani news footage shows, is not murder. The civilized people of Pakistan need to to clean their house, otherwise we will do it for you after we get rid of the Kenyan in 2012.

  133. Adnan says:
    February 15th, 2011 12:51 am

    Pakistan Beghairat Party(PBP)’s Fozia Wahab joins Beghairat Brigade and with other peers busy in Mudslinging Qureshi.

    Qureshi:1; Beghairat Brigade:0

  134. Bruce says:
    February 15th, 2011 2:35 am

    I really think the only right thing for US to do is to apologize and plead that this was a terrible mistake and that our law will take care of it and then ask that he be tried in the US. And then show that in fact he can be.

  135. Vegas says:
    February 15th, 2011 12:01 pm

    “No news in US media has shown his friends or family coming out recognizing him. Which is weired because his face is flashed all over media. One should expect the standard CNN’s interview of the neighbor of Mr. Davis by now.”

    Maybe his family and friends would like to be left alone to deal with this in their own way. He is a son, a husband and a father; we should all be willing to respect that. This is a very trying time for them. He is recognized, he is loved and everyone who knows the family personally, is praying for his safe return.

  136. Taimur Khan says:
    February 15th, 2011 2:02 pm

    1. First, diplomatic status is not technical grounds for murder. Even if he is a diplomat which he is not if he works for CIA or blackwater etc., he cannot shoot people in cold blood.
    2. If those 2 guys were dacoits the shooting is legitimized to an extent. Shooting them when they were escaping or already injured as he reportedly did is not kosher.
    3. The US government should respect the law. however, if raymond does not get due process they should go to war for him if necessary
    4. pakistan should also respect the law. Whatever pressure US exerts, Pak should stand firm as these things define the character of nation states

  137. Erik A says:
    February 15th, 2011 3:25 pm

    “1. First, diplomatic status is not technical grounds for murder. Even if he is a diplomat which he is not if he works for CIA or blackwater etc., he cannot shoot people in cold blood.”

    How in gods name do you resolve that he murdered them “in cold blood”? They were armed gunmen attacking him. On that, no one disagrees. Even though different countries may take a different approach to gun ownership, the law of self defense is universal and applicable to all men in every country. There is no country on earth where a man being attacked isn’t permitted to defend himself in turn. If he is being gravely attacked, he is permitted to respond with lethal force.

    The issue here seems to be a technicality- whether or not he was a diplomatic official and thus, has immunity when it comes to carrying a firearm.

  138. NadePaulKuciGravMcKi says:
    February 15th, 2011 5:09 pm

    Dr. Aafia Siddiqui

  139. Adnan says:
    February 15th, 2011 5:56 pm

    The incident shows how US officials would be used to speak with our President. In short, shows the worth of US worshipers in the eyes of Americans:


    Pak jail loudspeakers muted as Davis ‘complained of disturbance by morning prayer call’


    In a bizarre incident that shows special treatment being meted out to double-murder accused US diplomat Raymond Davis in Pakistani prison, the loudspeakers in Lahore’s Kot Lakhpat Jail were muted after he complained about the prayer call on Monday morning.

    Davis lodged a protest with the jail authorities on “being disturbed by the morning prayer call,” The Nation reports.

    “He started shouting in a quite savage manner in the wee hours when the Azaan was in progress and the prisoners were waking up for the prayers,” said a prisoner, who requested not to be named.

    The inmate said that Davis started shouting: “Shut the louder or I will raise the matter with the (US) Consulate.”

    “Surprisingly, jail officials shut the loudspeaker. It prompted the other prisoners to protest. In return, the officials switched the speaker back on,” he added.

    An official of the Kot Lakhpat Jail said that Davis had started huffing and puffing on hearing the Friday prayer call on his first day in that jail.

    “Seeing four prisoners offering Asr prayers in the corridor of their barrack, Davis started grumbling in a derogatory way,” he added.

    Another jail officer claimed that the US official also abused Jail Superintendent Mian Mushtaq Awan, who was trying to pacify him.

    Initially, Davis, who is facing murder charges, misbehaved with Awan’s subordinates when they woke him up for breakfast around 8am.

    “You all are bloody bastards. How dare you wake me without my permission? Now get lost,” Davis swore at them.

    The officer said that he had just woken Davis up to tell him that some senior officers, transferred from other jails for the special duty, had brought him breakfast, but he flew into a rage.

    Then the senior officials themselves gave it a try, pleading humbly: “Davis Sahib, please take your breakfast”.

    But, instead of cooling down, Davis shouted in reply: “You uncivilised fools don’t even make good servants. Is this the method to serve?”

    On being informed, Jail Superintendent Awan arrived within no time and tried his best to placate Davis, who abused him also, saying: “I am saying you should go now, bastard.”

    The officer said that though the senior officers could understand what Davis was saying, they asked Awan, who tried to downplay it, saying: “Davis was using meaningless slang.”

    The other prisoners, who continue to face acute shortage of basic necessities in the Kot Lakhpat Jail, say that they see the imprisoned US official’ behaviour as highly intolerable. (ANI)

    Source

  140. Joe D says:
    February 15th, 2011 8:07 pm

    Who started the gunfight, the American? He was driving around the city looking for a couple of guys on a motorcycle who happened to both have guns one them? I can’t believe the idiocies written in this story and the fools’ comments claiming this to be murder.

    If you’ve ever been in a gunfight, you know it is what the word means. You are fighting for your life. If one of the people you are fighting turns and runs to seek cover, you mow him down before he does. I am sickened by the pansies on this web page. End of story – two bad guys who deserved to be dead are dead, and the good guy is alive.

  141. Raheel says:
    February 15th, 2011 10:01 pm

    @ JOE D,

    You freaking goddamn american. You think the american was not the one starting the gunfight? If it was a Pakistani shooting two americans in U.S, you’d fuck geneva convention and get him a life sentence or a gas chamber even if he would have been a diplomat.

    You people think any non-american is an animal you can hunt anytime.. I will tell you that all those americans who were killed deserved to die because they are evil..

    Raymond Fuckedup Davis tried to be James Bond and now he will be tortured to death in a cell that stinks and he will get his due punishment for killing two civilians..

    GOD DAMN AMERICA and HIS ALLIES..

  142. sage says:
    February 16th, 2011 2:30 am

    All of us should just wait and let the events take their course. Pakistan govt, regardless of US actions around the globe in the case of Vienna Convention should stand on the right side of the history. They should not produce fake documentation for Mr Davis. In the event that Mr Davis has a diplomatic status, and if his government furnishes one ” legally or illegally” we should leave the onus of righteousness on them, and release him according to the Vienna Laws.

  143. Omar Khan says:
    February 16th, 2011 3:28 am

    I hate Raymond Davis, but still advocate handing him over. Although it may seem that we have finally got the chance of having a go at the USA, I am in favour of a hand-over because I simply don’t want to be part of this MADNESS.

    Moreover, after thousands of PAKISTANIS have been murdered in the name of a “FOREIGN” war, I am very surprised at the rhetoric of some people claiming it an issue of national sovereignty if 3 Pakistanis are added to the list.

    I have full sympathy for these 3 families, and those thousands others who have perished in drones, army operations, and bomb blasts. Our suffering should stop. I would request my fellow country-men to utilize their energies into forcing the government to stop this madness rather than calling for blood.

  144. Brian says:
    February 16th, 2011 3:57 am

    @Joe
    As an American, I have no sympathy for Davis. He is a killer and that is what he did. The guys he killed may have been bad guys, but that makes him no less of a killer. I say let the Pakistanis try him. I would want to try a Pakistani in our court if he killed an American in New York. As simple as that.

  145. Naan Haleem says:
    February 16th, 2011 4:08 am

    @ Omar Khan

    No man…. this is not enough… you have to do more to prove your allegiance to US to get the green card.

  146. Naveed says:
    February 16th, 2011 4:46 am

    I do not know who Omar Khan is or who Naan Haleem is. But I just hate this sort of ghatia comments.
    @Naan Haleem.
    Do you KNOW if Omar Khan is applying for a green card?
    have you?
    Where do you live?
    Why are you making these assertions about things you cannot know.
    Its called lying. And what does that make YOU.

  147. Jason Nichols says:
    February 16th, 2011 5:50 am

    So we should suppose Mr Davis arbitrarily drove up next to 2 Pakistani men on a motorcycle & shot them both DEAD…

    The man feared for his life. Guess he’s a quick draw.

    Speculate about who he really is… Fact is he is alive bc he wasn’t gunned down by 2 men on a motorcycle…

    Anyone but me SEE the clues?!?… It’s a WAR folks, with US or not… Maybe dead even. We roll like that…
    World of Confusion…. Look around please!

  148. Saleem Toor says:
    February 16th, 2011 11:53 am

    Few simple questions:
    1. What would have the American police and justice system done if any of our “diplomats” let alone a “consultant” had committed two murders on the road in front of scores of people in New York?
    2. Where in the world are the “diplomats” taught accurate firing techniques and trained with the best ammunition in the world? Where in the world are they trained to use spycams accurately and carry up linking equipment while on the move?
    3. Is there anyone in the USA please, who could tell us the real identity of this man? If the ID is fake, he probably, cannot be granted any immunity under any law.
    4. Where is the driver and the accomplices who killed the third innocent guy while trying to reach to Raymond’s car from the wrong side of the road? Hiding in US consulate? So are we saying that the Americans hire drivers as diplomats as well!
    Pakistani leaders – please don’t let this guy go unless he is proven to be a diplomat! Intelligence agencies – please get to his real identity!

    Pakistanis, please take a stand. We are facing the music of Musharraf’s fearful attitude while receiving the demands from Collin Powel; we are not in a position to go down further! “Might is right” but let’s not underestimate ourselves.

    We thank the concern shown by Senator John Kerry about issues being faced by Pakistan but please let the law be equal for all.

    Letting Raymond go, without a good reason (that is perceived as such as well) may be a Waterloo for the current leaders in Pakistan!

  149. Adnan says:
    February 16th, 2011 12:34 pm

    It’s amazing Jhon Kerry who’s here to release Davis giving the references of Hadith and Islam and asking Muslims to refer the religion. The poor guy does not know that if we think about treating Davis according to Quran and Hadith then the poor guy would be in hell because Islam clearly talks about Qisas.

    Naan Haleem is not wrong. Does anyone remember the remarks of American senator who said that Pakistanis can even sell their mothers for sake of money and coming to USA. The way liberals worship USA, I think this is not wrong at all and it’s ground reality about the importance of US for them is more than a God.

    Davis is released or not, in both cases leftist are loser; if Davis is released, leftists’ enemies, The right wing religious parties will make things hell and would automatically get support of Pakistani awam who 90%+ despise US. If Davis is not released then it’s would be victory of them and of Pakistanis laws and awam. So liberals! keep whining on online forums, that’s all you can do by coming up with different identities and nicks.

    Definitely a tough time for CJ Iftikhar and His team. So far he is silent. God knows why.

  150. checker47 says:
    February 16th, 2011 3:49 pm

    This seems to expose the double standards that the US practices when dealing with weaker states than itself.
    In 1997 the US,prosecuted, a Georgian embassy diplomat charged with the murder of a 16-year-old girl ,over the objections of the government of Georgia.
    A few years ago US whisked away an American army personal accused of raping a Japanese girl in Okinawa.
    The glaring question here ‘is Raymond Davis more important than the State of Pakistan?’

  151. Omar Khan says:
    February 16th, 2011 4:07 pm

    Dear all (and Haleem Biryani and Nan),

    We are going to achieve nothing by hanging Raymond Davis. Neither are we going to achieve anything by all this chest thumping. Think rationally. This crime is not a murder of 3 people. It is against the THOUSANDS of people who have died over the last decade. It is a crime against the Pakistani people.

    All I am suggesting is that the card of Raymond Davis should be played in such a way that this network of murderers (not just Raymond) is exposed. This can be done by agreeing to hand over Raymond on condition that the USA winds-up its covert activities in Pakistan, and making their activities conducted so far public. The courts must pressurize all government quarters who are in connivance with this covert apparatus to come out in the open. If the US does not agree, Raymond will eventually get free anyway because of effective US diplomacy against meek Pakistani response. It will happen. Why not then utilize this time and force Raymond to spill the beans on his, and his network’s operational activities. Arguing endlessly on Raymond’s diplomatic status and what is the best way to seek revenge is not what we can afford at this time.

    If we can break-out of this mind-set of revenge and prestige and play our cards straight, all this MADNESS in Pakistan can be stopped.

    Thanks for reading.

  152. Saleem Toor says:
    February 16th, 2011 4:14 pm

    @Omar Khan.

    Thought provoking – thanks!

  153. Naan Haleem says:
    February 16th, 2011 5:38 pm

    @ Omar Khan

    what a patriotic but absolutely childish idea.

    Do you expect the same to happen or even be discussed at tables? Will US ever admit that it is conducting any covert operations in Pakistan? Does any leader of Pakistan has such courage to burp such words out of his mouth? (Its the fear of public backlash which is keeping them from freeing RD, not their freewill.)
    Pakistan herself issued hundreds of visas, RD included, without proper information or investigation. This is the least price ZARDEELANI govt. paid for Kerry Lugar peanuts. Their lust for dollars and inefficiency to run the state without external aid makes Zardeelani easy object for americans to twist arms.
    I hope you dont ignore how US has developed a sound basis for developing a strong base in Swat valley. All this in the name of helping the flood victims. Yes, US army helicopters operated only in Swat during flood relief and H. Clinton asked for donation from american public in the name of Swat.
    Does anyone know how many undercover Americans are operating in Pakistan? Even if we accept your planning, who would guarantee that under cover agents have identities associated with only American embassy?
    Anyway, wishful thinking is good for peaceful sleep. As chacha Ghalib said “Dil ke behlaaney ko Ghalib ye khayal achaa hai”

  154. Aamir Ali says:
    February 17th, 2011 1:25 am

    Commentators on this post have done a fantastic job of obfuscating the issue, just like Pakistani media. Raymond Davis is covered by immunity and shot two men who were pointing guns at him , as verified by the police.

    Davis should have been released long time back, but due to wild anti-Americanism in Pakistan, Davis is being held and will be illegally tried based on Pakistani paranoia over “covert network” and “liberals selling themselves to America” and “respect for law”. This in a land where people don’t even obey traffic laws and evade tax.

  155. Jason Nichols says:
    February 17th, 2011 7:58 am

    Hang Davis?! Are you sure you want to hang a man who has been vetted among the bravest men alive?!

    Clearly Pakistan has been sharing info with some of the “wrong” folks… Maybe I’m saying what other US DoDs can’t but when you folks want to know, we deserve to give ya an answer.

    Realize that Peace is what WE are after. Not bloodshed. Mr Davis has to live with the event until he passes one day…

    FYI, there is a backload of “Cowboys” who are nice guys, but when put in a life or death situation… We apologize, sincerely.

  156. Jason Nichols says:
    February 17th, 2011 9:00 am

    We are tired of all races of Human Beings Dying.

    Dont sell US out to N.Waziristan WarLords and let them kill our men. That’s a start.

    Secure your nuclear capabilities.

    You will be surprised at the PEACE which will follow.

  157. Omar Khan says:
    February 17th, 2011 4:06 pm

    Well in a way you are right. Nobody is going to listen to such wishful thinking. The “Nobody’s” main priority is to protect their own interests FIRST. Nevertheless there is no harm in giving commentary on the issue rather than sit back and resign ourselves to fate. Who knows, maybe somebody other than haleem biryani’s read pakistaniat also.

    The US administration backed by its legal guru’s have it all sorted amongst themselves and they are applying pressure on the divided Pakistani government. Guess who is going to break first. The foreign office has sought more time for confirming Raymond’s diplomatic status and the courts have given 1 month. But everybody knows that this 1 month has nothing to do with Raymond. The 1 month will be utilized for internal shuffling within the FO. The outcome is clear to everyone.

    To wrap-up, here is something I would like to happen (supposing Raymond is not being handed over)

    1) GeoTV reports another case of Punjab police “chitar-mar” on hidden cameras in the big lawns of Lahore central jail under a shaded tree.

    2. FO adopts a hawkish stance and declares that Raymond is a spy (which he is), and as such vienna convention does not apply to spy’s. As evidence, Pakistan can bring up evidence of him being a spy. If it does not have evidence, it can fake it (Remember that US routinely fakes up lies to invade other countries)

    3. FO tries to find allies and declares that since he is a spy (and not a diplomat), he is also involved in unrest in Iran, and as such will be jointly interrogated by Iranian and Pakistani agencies. At this moment, Raymond’s name can be added to the list of missing persons and his case will be pending in supreme court along with the hundred others.

    Adios.

  158. Lars Olsen says:
    February 17th, 2011 11:46 pm

    I seems to me Raymond was not in a place where he should be, probably because he was spying. The fact of the matter is you can’t kill somebody just because you’re being robbed. If he was smart and not a jughead he would have just handed over the money.

    If Ray wants to live life on the fringe, he should accept dying on the fringe.

    He should be tried as a murder at least if not a spy as well.

    Washington D.C. continues to embarrass me as American.
    I am ashamed of what the idiots on the east coast of the U.S. are doing. Including “Barry”

    Lars

  159. Adnan says:
    February 18th, 2011 12:31 am

    Reading the last comment, it’s shameful how an American is ashamed of what his government is doing but not Pakistanis who are desparate to become darling in the eyes of USA hence sell every thing including their own family people. Like that American I am also ashamed ignorance and beghairat pan of my own self-acclaimed literate people.

  160. Aamir Ali says:
    February 18th, 2011 1:31 am

    @Lars

    You can absolutely kill someone who is robbing you, in fact you can defend yourself against any threat. A robber can turn into a murderer in a second, and that is why self-defense is an accepted right.

  161. Raiz says:
    February 18th, 2011 10:16 pm

    Imagine that a Pakistani diplomat from Pakistani Embassy in San Francisco USA, shoots and kills people on the road. Will he get diplomatic immunity?

    Will the US release him if Asif Zardari calls Obama and threatens him?

    This is a world run according to a NEW WORLD ORDER, here might is right. Here you see an unproportional colateral damage. Here you see what happens to IRAQ if they start trading in EURO’s instead of DOLLARS.

    See what heppens to AFGHANISTAN if they do not allow a 42 inch pipeline to carry oil from Northern region, and also to mine lithium from their mountains.

    Pakistan can reduced to stone age rubble.

  162. Aamir Ali says:
    February 18th, 2011 10:52 pm

    There is no Pakistani embassy in San Francisco. No need to go into further into conspiracy garbage.

  163. faust1 says:
    February 19th, 2011 3:18 am

    i think US should respect laws in Pakistan.

  164. ARSLAN SAEED says:
    February 19th, 2011 1:05 pm

    THE MOST RELIABLE COMMENT:

    IT IS NOT A SELF-DEFENCE BECAUSE

    ACCORDING TO POLICE INVESTIGATION REPORT AND THE REPORT OF FRANZIC LABORATORY THE TWO MOTOR CYCLE MENS FIRED FROM BACK BECAUSE THEY HAVE BULLETS ON THEIR BACK.

    SO, WHEN THEY SHOOTED FROM BACK THEIR ARE
    2 CASES: ASSUME THAT THEY ARE ROBBERS WHICH IS NOT ACTUALLY RIGHT SO,

    (1) IF THEY ARE ROBBING HIM THEY SHOULD BE FIRED BT RAYMOND FROM FRONT AND THEY SHOULD BULLETS ON THEIR CHSET, WHICH IS NOT ACTUALL YHAPPEND.

    (2) IN SECOND CASE, IF HE SAY THAT WHEN TWO MEN ROBBED HIM AND GO AWAY AND AFTER THAT HE FIRED THEM THEN RAYMOND HAS NO SELF-DFENCE EXEMPTION BECAUSE IF WE SUPPOSE THAT AFTER THE ROBBERY WHEN THE TWO MEN GO AWAY THE RAYMOND DAVIS HAS NO LIFE THREAT. AND SHOULD NOT BE FIRED.

    ABOUT RAYMON DAVIS:

    RAYMONG DAVIS IS A EX-CAPTAIN FROM US SPECIAL FORCES IN ARMY, ALSO WORKED IN CIA (THE ENEMY OF HUMAN RIGHTS).

    and now ABOUT TWO MOTOR-CYCLE MEN

    (FAHIM & RIZWAN):

    THE ELDER BROTHER OF FAHIM WAS KILLED ONE MONTH BEFORE THE FAHIM’S DEATH. AND THEY HAVE RECEIVED PHONE THRETS FROM FAHIM’S ELDER BROTHER’S MURDERERS. THEY SAID THEM THAT IF THEY GO TO COURT AGAINST THEM THEN THEY WILL ALSO KILLED.

    SO, ON 27 JANUARY THEY GO TO COURT FOR THEIR BROTHER’S MUDER CASE. AND THEY HAVE LISENCED LEGAL GUN FOR THEIR SAFETY BECAUSE THEY HAVE POSSIBLE ATTACK FROM THEIR ENEMIES.

    WHEN THEY ARE GOING BACK FROM COURT TO THEIR HOUSE THEY ARE KILLED BY RAYMOND. RAYMOND FIRED THEM BECAUSE HE ASSUME BY HIMSELF THAT THEY ARE ROBBERS. BUT THE TWO MEN ARE NOT THE ROBBERS. AND RAYMOND FIRED THEM LIKE A SPECIAL TRAINED PERSON BECAUSE HE IS COMMANDO AND IN PAKISTAN ON SECRET MISSION.

    WEAPONS OF RAYMOND:

    RAYMOND HAVE A LATEST PISTOL GLOCK,
    THE BULLETS OF RAYMOD’S PISTOL ARE HIGHLY STRONG WHICH ARE MADE OF STAIN LESS STEEL WHICH HAVE SO POWER TO DESTROY SOMEONE OR ANYTHING. THESE BULLETS ARE NOT LOCALLY AVAILABLE BUT ON INTERNATIONAL LEVEL ONLY IN SOME COUNTRIES. WHY HE HAS SO POWERFUL WEAPONS IF HE IS A EMPLOYEE OF AMERICA COUNSELOT IN LAHORE.

    A GPS CHIP ALSO RECOVERED FROM RAYMOND DAVIS, WHICH IS USED IN DRONE ATTACKS. AND NOW RESOURCES SAID THAT HE HAS LINKS IN SOUTHERN WAZIRASTAN WITH EXTREMIST. WE CAN SAY THAT HE IOS ON EXTREMISTS HELP MISSION FOR BOMB ATTACKS IN PAKISTAN.

    HE ALSO HAS A WIRELESS SYSTEM.

    WHAT VIANA CONVENTION SAY FOR THEM:

    RAYMOND CANNOT

    VIANA CONVENTION 1963-”Article 6
    Exercise of consular functions outside the consular district
    A consular officer may, in special circumstances, with the consent of the receiving State, exercise
    his functions outside his consular district.” now if they say that he is in american ambessy then why not he informs the government of pakistan for his travel to lahore.

    VIANA CONVENTION 1963-”Article 41 of
    Personal inviolability of consular officers:

    1. “Consular officers shall not be liable to arrest or detention pending trial, except in the case of a
    grave crime and pursuant to a decision by the competent judicial authority.” so, we can arrest and punish raymond because he had done DUAL murdered of two innocent persons without any concrete and real reason.

    3. If criminal proceedings are instituted against a consular officer, he must appear before the
    competent authorities.
    VIANA CONVENTION-Article 43
    Immunity from jurisdiction:

    1.”Consular officers and consular employees shall not be amenable to the jurisdiction of the
    judicial or administrative authorities of the receiving State in respect of acts performed in the exercise of
    consular functions.”

  165. ARSLAN says:
    February 19th, 2011 1:12 pm

    ABOUT TWO MOTOR-CYCLE MEN

    (FAHIM & RIZWAN):THEY ARE INNOCENT BECAUSE:

    THE ELDER BROTHER OF FAHIM WAS KILLED ONE MONTH BEFORE THE FAHIM’S DEATH. AND THEY HAVE RECEIVED PHONE THRETS FROM FAHIM’S ELDER BROTHER’S MURDERERS. THEY SAID THEM THAT IF THEY GO TO COURT AGAINST THEM THEN THEY WILL ALSO KILLED.

    SO, ON 27 JANUARY THEY GO TO COURT FOR THEIR BROTHER’S MUDER CASE. AND THEY HAVE LISENCED LEGAL GUN FOR THEIR SAFETY BECAUSE THEY HAVE POSSIBLE ATTACK FROM THEIR ENEMIES.

    WHEN THEY ARE GOING BACK FROM COURT TO THEIR HOUSE THEY ARE KILLED BY RAYMOND. RAYMOND FIRED THEM BECAUSE HE ASSUME BY HIMSELF THAT THEY ARE ROBBERS. BUT THE TWO MEN ARE NOT THE ROBBERS. AND RAYMOND FIRED THEM LIKE A SPECIAL TRAINED PERSON BECAUSE HE IS COMMANDO AND IN PAKISTAN ON SECRET MISSION.

    WEAPONS OF RAYMOND:

    RAYMOND HAVE A LATEST PISTOL GLOCK,
    THE BULLETS OF RAYMOD’S PISTOL ARE HIGHLY STRONG WHICH ARE MADE OF STAIN LESS STEEL WHICH HAVE SO POWER TO DESTROY SOMEONE OR ANYTHING. THESE BULLETS ARE NOT LOCALLY AVAILABLE BUT ON INTERNATIONAL LEVEL ONLY IN SOME COUNTRIES. WHY HE HAS SO POWERFUL WEAPONS IF HE IS A EMPLOYEE OF AMERICA COUNSELOT IN LAHORE.

    A GPS CHIP ALSO RECOVERED FROM RAYMOND DAVIS, WHICH IS USED IN DRONE ATTACKS. AND NOW RESOURCES SAID THAT HE HAS LINKS IN SOUTHERN WAZIRASTAN WITH EXTREMIST. WE CAN SAY THAT HE IOS ON EXTREMISTS HELP MISSION FOR BOMB ATTACKS IN PAKISTAN.

    HE ALSO HAS A WIRELESS SYSTEM.

    WHAT VIANA CONVENTION SAY FOR THEM:

    RAYMOND CANNOT

    VIANA CONVENTION 1963-”Article 6
    Exercise of consular functions outside the consular district
    A consular officer may, in special circumstances, with the consent of the receiving State, exercise
    his functions outside his consular district.” now if they say that he is in american ambessy then why not he informs the government of pakistan for his travel to lahore.

    VIANA CONVENTION 1963-”Article 41 of
    Personal inviolability of consular officers:

    1. “Consular officers shall not be liable to arrest or detention pending trial, except in the case of a
    grave crime and pursuant to a decision by the competent judicial authority.” so, we can arrest and punish raymond because he had done DUAL murdered of two innocent persons without any concrete and real reason.

    3. If criminal proceedings are instituted against a consular officer, he must appear before the
    competent authorities.
    VIANA CONVENTION-Article 43
    Immunity from jurisdiction:

    1.”Consular officers and consular employees shall not be amenable to the jurisdiction of the
    judicial or administrative authorities of the receiving State in respect of acts performed in the exercise of
    consular functions.”

  166. ARSLAN says:
    February 19th, 2011 1:18 pm

    WHY RAYMOND DAVIS TRAVELING ON A RENT CAR “HONDA CIVIC” WHICH HAS A BOGUS NUMBER PLATE OF A “SUZUKI CULTUS”?

    WHY HE WANT TO ESCAPE FRON INCIDENT PLACE IF DO NOT HAV ANY CRIME?
    ANSWER: BECAUSE HE HAS FEAR THAT HE WILL BE ASKED FOR THE WEAPONS FIND FROM HIS AND HIS PERSONAL PURPOSE IN PAKISTAN.

    & BECAUSE HE HAS KILLED TWO INNOCENT PERSONS WITHOUT ANY REASON. THEY ARE INNOCENT BECAUSE:

    ABOUT TWO MOTOR-CYCLE MEN

    (FAHIM & RIZWAN):

    THE ELDER BROTHER OF FAHIM WAS KILLED ONE MONTH BEFORE THE FAHIM’S DEATH. AND THEY HAVE RECEIVED PHONE THRETS FROM FAHIM’S ELDER BROTHER’S MURDERERS. THEY SAID THEM THAT IF THEY GO TO COURT AGAINST THEM THEN THEY WILL ALSO KILLED.

    SO, ON 27 JANUARY THEY GO TO COURT FOR THEIR BROTHER’S MUDER CASE. AND THEY HAVE LISENCED LEGAL GUN FOR THEIR SAFETY BECAUSE THEY HAVE POSSIBLE ATTACK FROM THEIR ENEMIES.

    WHEN THEY ARE GOING BACK FROM COURT TO THEIR HOUSE THEY ARE KILLED BY RAYMOND. RAYMOND FIRED THEM BECAUSE HE ASSUME BY HIMSELF THAT THEY ARE ROBBERS. BUT THE TWO MEN ARE NOT THE ROBBERS. AND RAYMOND FIRED THEM LIKE A SPECIAL TRAINED PERSON BECAUSE HE IS COMMANDO AND IN PAKISTAN ON SECRET MISSION.

    WEAPONS OF RAYMOND:

    RAYMOND HAVE A LATEST PISTOL GLOCK,
    THE BULLETS OF RAYMOD’S PISTOL ARE HIGHLY STRONG WHICH ARE MADE OF STAIN LESS STEEL WHICH HAVE SO POWER TO DESTROY SOMEONE OR ANYTHING. THESE BULLETS ARE NOT LOCALLY AVAILABLE BUT ON INTERNATIONAL LEVEL ONLY IN SOME COUNTRIES. WHY HE HAS SO POWERFUL WEAPONS IF HE IS A EMPLOYEE OF AMERICA COUNSELOT IN LAHORE.

    A GPS CHIP ALSO RECOVERED FROM RAYMOND DAVIS, WHICH IS USED IN DRONE ATTACKS. AND NOW RESOURCES SAID THAT HE HAS LINKS IN SOUTHERN WAZIRASTAN WITH EXTREMIST. WE CAN SAY THAT HE IOS ON EXTREMISTS HELP MISSION FOR BOMB ATTACKS IN PAKISTAN.

    HE ALSO HAS A WIRELESS SYSTEM.

    WHAT VIANA CONVENTION SAY FOR THEM:

    RAYMOND CANNOT

    VIANA CONVENTION 1963-”Article 6
    Exercise of consular functions outside the consular district
    A consular officer may, in special circumstances, with the consent of the receiving State, exercise
    his functions outside his consular district.” now if they say that he is in american ambessy then why not he informs the government of pakistan for his travel to lahore.

    VIANA CONVENTION 1963-”Article 41 of
    Personal inviolability of consular officers:

    1. “Consular officers shall not be liable to arrest or detention pending trial, except in the case of a
    grave crime and pursuant to a decision by the competent judicial authority.” so, we can arrest and punish raymond because he had done DUAL murdered of two innocent persons without any concrete and real reason.

    3. If criminal proceedings are instituted against a consular officer, he must appear before the
    competent authorities.
    VIANA CONVENTION-Article 43
    Immunity from jurisdiction:

    1.”Consular officers and consular employees shall not be amenable to the jurisdiction of the
    judicial or administrative authorities of the receiving State in respect of acts performed in the exercise of
    consular functions.”

  167. Adnan says:
    February 19th, 2011 2:23 pm

    It seems that Bhanjay are having resltless nights for their Criminal and terrorist “Reymond Mamoo”.

    The US senator was damn right, Pakistanis can even sell their mothers for sake of money and green card.

  168. Asher Hassan says:
    February 19th, 2011 6:00 pm

    I am very impressed by the government stand on this. I am not usually a PPP fan but on this one they have stood to US as well as public pressure and followed the course.

  169. Adnan says:
    February 20th, 2011 12:32 am

    Asher, you are wrong. PPP is not against US. It’s actually people like Shah Qureshi, Awam and Military that is creating trouble for Pro-US PeePeePEE government who are dying to hand over Davis. So let’s not give credit to those who don’t deserve at all.

  170. hassan says:
    February 20th, 2011 3:05 am

    امریکی شہری ریمنڈ ڈیوس نے پاکستا نی لوگوں کو کیا کتے بلّی سمجھ لیا تھا جوانکو یوں راہ چلتے مار دیا اس شخص کو ضرور سزا ملنی چاہیے اور پاکستانی حکومت کو بھی اس کا سخت نوٹس لینا چاہیے ورنہ کل کو کوئی بھی غیرملک سے آکر خود ساختہ سفیر بن کرہمارے لوگوں کو مار کراستثنیٰ کی تلوار لہراتا اپنے ملک بھاگ جاےگا. ایک اور بات جو میں کہتا چلوں کے بطور ایک غیرتمند قوم ہمیں چاہیے کے ہم بھی مقتولین کے خاندانوں کی کفالت کی ذمے داری اٹھائیں تا کہ وہ لوگ مجبور ہو کر دیت قبول کر کے قاتل امریکی کو معاف نہ کر دیں. اسی لئے میں نے سوچا ہے کے میرے پاکستانی بھائیوں اور بہنوں آگے آؤ اور اس نیک کام میں حصّہ ڈالو اور مقتولین کے خاندانوں کی مدد کے لئے ہر شخص صرف 1 روپیہ دے مثال کےطورپرآپکے گھر میں 10 افراد ہیں تو آپ صرف دس روپے مقتولین کے خاندانوں کی مدد کے لئے دیں اس طرح سولہ کروڑ روپے جمع ہوں گے جو ہم پانچ کروڑ تینتیس لاکھ تینتیس ہزارروپے کے حساب سے فی خاندان دے سکتے ہیں اوراس کونہ خیرات سمجھ کر دیں نہ زکواہ، بلکہ آپکی صرف یہ نیت ہو کہ ایسا وقت کل کو کسی پر بھی آسکتا ہے- میرے خیال میں عمران خان صاحب اگر یہ مہم شروع کریں تو بہت اچھاہو سب سے پہلے میں آگے آتا ہوں اور میں ایک سو کرون دیتا ہوں 10 میرے گھر والوں کی طرف سے اور باقی 990 ان کی طرف سے جو 1 روپیہ بھی نہیں دے سکتے . اس نیک کام کے دو فائدے ہوں گے
    ١ . مقتولین کے خاندانوں کو دیت لینے کی ضرورت نہیں پڑے گی جس سے ان کی عزت نفس اور ہماری قومی غیرت بھی برقرار رہے گی
    ٢. پاکستانیوں اگر آج یہ مجبور اورلاچارخاندان دیت لیکرچپ کرگئےتوکل کو کوئی بھی باہرسے آکر تمہاری اولادوں کو مار ڈالے گا اور دیت کے نام پر پیسے دیکر چلتا بنے گا تو آؤ ہم سب ملکر ایک قوم ہونے کاثبوت دیں اور دنیا کو بتا دیں کے ہم بکاؤ مال نہیں

  171. readinglord says:
    February 20th, 2011 4:52 am

    @ARSALAN

    You say:

    “THE ELDER BROTHER OF FAHIM WAS KILLED ONE MONTH BEFORE THE FAHIM’S DEATH.”

    Will you or any body let us know why the brother of Fahim, who according to a relative of his, had a criminal record, was murdered and who was the culprit in that case?

    @hassan

    A good scheme for raising the price of something which is not sale-able! But why to tax pakies for a crime committed by an American?

    Do you expect pakies, who garland murderers to pay for the victim. Great are the son and daughter of Salman Taseer who publicly declared that they don’t want any body’s life for the murder of their illustrious father because they rightly believe that life and death and the justice are in the hands of God only.

  172. arsh says:
    February 20th, 2011 2:40 pm

    SEARCH THIS ON GOOGLE… **The Deepening Mystery of Raymond Davis and Two Slain Pakistani Motorcyclists**

    factual article by US Journalist on Raymond davis.

  173. Billy says:
    February 21st, 2011 10:40 am

    Best comment I have seen on this: Being a guard at Morgan Stanley does not make you an investment banker and being security at an Embassy does not make you a diplomat!

    I think the present government is doing a very good job of standing up to the Americans and no matter what they might have ‘wanted’ to do (which is all speculation), the fact that they have withstood US pressure is commendable because this really is a clear cut case.

  174. Aamir Ali says:
    February 21st, 2011 7:19 pm

    @Billy boy
    Diplomatic immunity is not just for ambassadors, but extends to members of an embassy as specified by the US govt. According to Vienna conventions that Pakistan has signed, Raymond Davis is a diplomat.

    The govt and Pakistani public have turned this into a emotional issue of sovereignty while ignoring the real issues of sovereignty, such as 30 year ISI policy of turning FATA over to militants.

  175. Adnan says:
    February 23rd, 2011 12:33 am

    A bad news for Desi Bhanjay of Reymond Davis, after Guardian, NYT also declared Davis as a CIA agent.

    Now Bhanjay of Reymond Davis should come out of their bins to do something to save their Mamu, Reymond Davis.

    http://tinyurl.com/reymondDavis

  176. Jian says:
    February 23rd, 2011 12:50 am

    Looks like Amir Ali also works at the US Embassy. He must be their advocate.

  177. Aamir Ali says:
    February 23rd, 2011 1:08 am

    @Jian
    No I work for a bank, and come from northwest Pakistan, which has been ravaged and destroyed by foolish 30-year policy of supporting militancy by Pakistani govt.

  178. Mail Domain says:
    February 23rd, 2011 4:57 am

    Now an official Russian news source is reporting he was caught handing nuclear materials over to “al-qeada” for use against targets IN AMERICA.

    http://in.news.yahoo.com/cia-spy-davis-giving-nuclear-bomb-material-al-20110219-224833-452.html

  179. Adnan says:
    February 23rd, 2011 12:24 pm

    A bad news for Desi Bhanjay of Reymond Davis, after Guardian, NYT also declared Davis as a CIA agent.

    Now Bhanjay of Reymond Davis should come out of their bins to do something to save their Mamu, Reymond Davis.

    tinyurl.com/reymondDavis

  180. Adnan says:
    February 23rd, 2011 11:36 pm

    Since Reymond Davis has been declared a CIA Agents and mentioned in NYT and Guardian, all those who have been favoring his release should also be trialed in Supreme court since they would have knowledge about his reality and they all started propaganda to hide his real identification. SC should take comments and articles on Internet forums under consideration and take necessary action against the people. Fozia Wahab should also be brought in court to get further details

  181. Chuck says:
    February 24th, 2011 6:53 am

    I have seen many web sides and lots of coments on Davis issue.
    I must say that this is the most civil forum. I commend all the participants for this.
    Just because Pakistan is totally corrupt and killing is not uncommon, does not mean that EVERYTHING in Pakistan is corrupted. Most has already been said, my cent worth is that the guys following Davis were after him, not for money but for what he was involved in. In james Bond films, spies with license to kill do go beserk, but the host nation has every right to defend itself against the spies.
    I think US made a blunder by coming out almost with arrogance, insted of using quite diplomacy. No foreigner has a right to kill citizens in any country. If it was a private/civil matter then US could have cancelled his assumed diplomatic immunity, btw the “funny” police video proves that Davis was NOT a diplomat, he said so himself…I am a consultant. The trouble is the US govt was involved in hanky-panky, most probably with the blessings of some part of the Pakistani government, unfortunately Davis’ rescue got botched up by the other US embassy car, and he got caught by Lahore police.
    Mrs Clinton should have resigned for her spying-on-UN-diplomats fiasco as revealed by Wikileaks, she is not fit to be sec of state, her arrogance at wrong times has put US-Pak relations in this awkward situation. Obama should return the Nobel prize, again for his lack of humility in this situation. He is not tough where he needs to be (against Replicans and Gadaffi etc). Very immature.
    If Zardari let’s Davis go, maybe the silent and moderate population of Pakistan would at last do something to save the country from chaos. And at the price of 3 Pakistani lives and one American is a bargain. Apologies for lengthy discourse, thank you for publishing my views.

  182. Humaira says:
    February 24th, 2011 12:44 pm

    You called this early. IT was always clear that he was a spy. And now we know. Pathetic display really by the US. Difficult to show any trust in them any more!

  183. Bangash says:
    February 24th, 2011 1:07 pm

    Beghairat Pakistanis are playing in World Cup even though not a single match is being played in Pakistan. If Pakistanis were so Ghairatmand they would have demanded at least one match in Pakistan but no, they will still play in all matches in enemy India. Pakistanis also hate west but stand in line for days for Western visa.

    Pakistanis are beghairat nation and hanging Raymond Davis will not change that.

  184. Adnan says:
    February 24th, 2011 4:10 pm
  185. Talat says:
    February 24th, 2011 4:31 pm

    I must confess that till only a few days ago I was willing to give the Americans the benefit of the doubt. But no more. Turns out that this man is a killer and the American government is a bunch of liars. Worst is American media that actively suppressed the truth about hit even after they knew who he was.
    Shame shame America!!!!

  186. readinglord says:
    February 25th, 2011 6:32 am

    @ARSALAN

    You wrote a lot in defense of the victims of Raymond but avoided to reply to the question raised in my previous post as to what was the cause of murder of Fahim’s brother. Does it not show that his family was prone to be murdered innocently as Munir Niazi had said:

    “Kujh shehr the lok wi zaalam san
    kujh ‘saanun’ maran da shouq wi si”?

  187. Humair says:
    February 26th, 2011 11:30 pm

    Good writeup. Everyone is trying to cover up story rather than make things clearer. Yours is still one of the most clear ones.

  188. spsyed says:
    February 27th, 2011 8:21 pm

    Top-secret CIA documents show that Raymond Allen Davis (born 02 Oct 1974) was providing nuclear fissile material and biological agents to the ‘terrorists’ assigned to destabilise Pakistan. Davis was employed by the American under cover agencies, but this information is still withheld on the orders of American politicians. The documents show Davis had links with the terrorists, working on the CIA’s plan to sabotage, destabilise and disarm Pakistan. Davis also worked for American Task Force 373 (TF373), Blackwater XE, DynaCorp and other under cover American agencies still operating in Pakistan. TF373 (Delta Force) is assigned to hire locals (Orange Force) to plant bombs in Pakistan, destabilise and leave the country without adequate defense. This is an uncompromising national security issue in Pakistan. Davis was employed by the American under cover agencies, but this information is still withheld on the orders of American politicians…

  189. thomas says:
    March 2nd, 2011 9:45 pm

    Hang onto this Rambo Killer…. Eventually he will tell you the TRUE policy of the foreign powers that are manipulating the politicians of Pakistan!! He needs to believe he will be your guest for the next twenty years to get him talking. The U.S. Jewish judge gave Afia 86 years for hurting NO-ONE…. How long should Davis get..?? And is he a spy too? WHat is the penalty for the murder of two in Pakistan..?? What is the penalty in Pakistan for spying..?? Add the two penalties together and that is how long Davis should be your guest….

  190. Jason Nichols says:
    March 4th, 2011 11:41 am

    Ball of Confusion.

  191. Daniel says:
    March 4th, 2011 6:00 pm

    Raymond Davis is a human garbage. He deserves to be hanged and then thrown into a landfill.

  192. Bangash says:
    March 16th, 2011 7:21 pm

    Raymond Davis has been set free upon payment of “blood money” to relatives of the two robbers. All the loud talk by Pakistanis about “Law, Sovereignity, Court etc” and of hanging Davis amounted to nothing.

    ISI/GHQ rule Pakistan.

  193. Adnan says:
    March 16th, 2011 9:00 pm

    If any liberal or member of Beghairat Brigade considers its victory or feels happy, the person is really in illusion and ignorant. As I said earlier on same thread, the release of Davis is gonna make ‘foreign’ agenda of liberals in Pakistan more tough, the religious right is surely gonna use this issue to ignite anti-American sentiments further.

    The thing which surprised me why ppl are surprised on his release? it was due, just Army guys had to reach to some negotiation. Pakistan’s Beghairat govt does not have guts to say NO to USA. The govt had no choice,they preferred to face the heat of Awam than US. After all like others they will also run to USA one day.

    Thanks Davis, you did what these so called religious parties could not do in past 30 years.

  194. March 16th, 2011 9:50 pm
  195. Ibn e Islam says:
    March 16th, 2011 9:51 pm

    All Praise Be To Allaah Alone, and May Allaah’s Peace, Blessings and Mercy Be Upon The Final Messenger, all of his Companions, all of his Family, all of his Noble Wives and to all those who follow him till to the Day of Judgement.
    To follow:
    Allaah Says In The Qur’aan, Suraah Al-Maaeda, Chapter 5, Verses 51-55:
    O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as Auliyâ’ (friends, protectors, helpers), they are but Auliyâ’ of each other. And if any amongst you takes them (as Auliyâ’), then surely he is one of them. Verily, Allâh guides not those people who are the Zâlimûn (polytheists and wrong-doers and unjust). (51) And you see those in whose hearts there is a disease (of hypocrisy), they hurry to their friendship, saying: “We fear lest some misfortune of a disaster may befall us.” Perhaps Allâh may bring a victory or a decision according to His Will. Then they will become regretful for what they have been keeping as a secret in themselves. (52) And those who believe will say: “Are these the men (hypocrites) who swore their strongest oaths by Allâh that they were with you (Muslims)?” All that they did has been in vain (because of their hypocrisy), and they have become the losers. (53) O you who believe! Whoever from among you turns back from his religion (Islâm), Allâh will bring a people whom He will love and they will love Him; humble towards the believers, stern towards the disbelievers, fighting in the Way of Allâh, and never fear of the blame of the blamers. That is the Grace of Allâh which He bestows on whom He wills. And Allâh is All-Sufficient for His creatures’ needs, All-Knower. (54) Verily, your Walî (Protector or Helper) is none other than Allâh, His Messenger, and the believers, – those who perform As-Salât (Iqâmat-as-Salât), and give Zakât, and they are Rakiun (those who bow down or submit themselves with obedience to Allâh in prayer). (55)
    In the light of these verses IT IS CLEARLY EVIDENT THAT THE ARMED FORCES OF PAKISTAN, INTELLIGENCE SERVICES, POLICE, JUDICIARY, PAKISTANI GOVT, PUNJAB, OR SINDH OR BALOCHISTAN OR KPK GOVT. ARE ALL APOSTATES FROM THE DEEN OF ISLAM. AND FIGHTING AGAINST IS AN INDIVIDUAL OBLIGATION ON EVERY SINGLE MUSLIM.

  196. Ibn e Islam says:
    March 16th, 2011 9:57 pm

    The verses ” And if any amongst you takes them (as Auliyâ’), then surely he is one of them.”, means he/she is a kaafir like them. Allaah THE ALMIGHTY HAS MADE IT VERY CLEAR – THE SO-CALLED INDEPENDENT JUDICIARY OF PAKISTAN – IS NOTHING BUT PURE LIES, DECEIT, AND HYPOCRISY.

    INFACT THE ENTIRE PAKISTANI LAW IS UN-ISLAMIC KUFR LAW as is evidenced from the verses:
    Verily, We did send down the Taurât (Torah) [to Mûsa (Moses)], therein was guidance and light, by which the Prophets, who submitted themselves to Allâh’s Will, judged for the Jews. And the rabbis and the priests [too judged for the Jews by the Taurât (Torah) after those Prophets] for to them was entrusted the protection of Allâh’s Book, and they were witnesses thereto. Therefore fear not men but fear Me (O Jews) and sell not My Verses for a miserable price. And whosoever does not judge by what Allâh has revealed, such are the Kâfirûn (i.e. disbelievers – as they do not act on Allâh’s Laws). (44) And We ordained therein for them: “Life for life[], eye for eye, nose for nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal.” But if anyone remits the retaliation by way of charity, it shall be for him an expiation. And whosoever does not judge by that which Allâh has revealed, such are the Zâlimûn (polytheists and wrongdoers). (45) And in their footsteps, We sent ‘Īsā (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)[], confirming the Taurât (Torah) that had come before him, and We gave him the Injeel (Gospel), in which was guidance and light and confirmation of the Taurât (Torah) that had come before it, a guidance and an admonition for Al-Muttaqûn (the pious – see V.2:2). (46) Let the people of the Injeel (Gospel) judge by what Allâh has revealed therein. And whosoever does not judge by what Allâh has revealed (then) such (people) are the Fâsiqûn (the rebellious i.e. disobedient) to Allâh.

  197. Adnan says:
    March 16th, 2011 10:14 pm

    No ‘Ibn-e-Islam’, the verses you quoted don’t make mentioned people as “Kaafir” so don’t come up with your fatwa.

  198. poppy taylor says:
    March 16th, 2011 10:33 pm

    Well Raymond was a target of the usual Pakistani brainless morons ( is there any brains in Pakistan?) Nope.

    He was quicker on the draw… those two extremists soon found out who raymond was? He does not waste time when he fires.. fastest gun in the cia.
    Its so funny.. he is amazing
    beats James Bond

  199. afak says:
    March 17th, 2011 2:29 pm

    @poppy taylor
    Davis is American terrorist and so are his supporters like you!
    I hope somebody will wash him out in Afganistan.

  200. roxane says:
    March 18th, 2011 2:45 am

    Well done America for releasing your citizen.I hope the Pakistani government takes good care of its citizens in the same way!

  201. Raj says:
    March 18th, 2011 12:30 pm

    America doesnt make a habit of leaving its own behind if it can help it. We also dont really care if the “innocent” men one of our operatives killed were actually members of an overly aggressive foreign spy service (ISI). Mr. Davis obviously made a mistake somewhere, but he felt threatened, he used his gun, and two men who were either criminals or ISI agents are now dead. Pakistan has just made such a big deal about it because it was a Christian killing Muslims, face it, that’s fact. This event just gives Pakistanis an excuse to bust out those ole’ burning uncle sam effigies , dust off those tattered burning American flags, and create some great poster art involving poor spelling, grainy photos of “raymon devis”, a noose, and lets say… the words “death” and “American Devil”. Yes, Pakistan certainly has its act together. And its populace is obviously highly educated and very reasonable. (feel free to read the above with a THICK slathering of sarcasm)

  202. live news pakistan says:
    June 11th, 2011 12:35 pm

    We have no right to celebrate independence because we are still a slave and we take dictations from our lord America for every single issue in the country. As Raymond had allegations of double murdering and his act was strongly condemned by the whole nation, he was set freed. Imagine the intensity of heat and grief on the sad incident that wife of a victim committed suicide out of feelings of helplessness and despair from the justice delivering faction of the society. Religious groups and political parties pushed the families of victim to accept blood money referring it as a shariah law. At last but not least it was proven that money can buy you anything even pardon. It is shame for the whole nation that we have no dignity but compromises in life .we pardoned Raymond Davis for three lives but could not manage a pardon for Aafia for just attempt to attack on Nato officer. Shame, woe and curse many times on all of us for being sold out for dollars and humble slaves of America.
    Another victim of Raymond Davis found in a posh area of Lahore
    live pakistan news

  203. faaiz says:
    June 11th, 2011 12:37 pm

Have Your Say (Bol, magar piyar say)