Death of a Journalist. Warning to a Nation.

Posted on June 1, 2011
Filed Under >Adil Najam, Law & Justice, Media Matters, People
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Adil Najam

Pakistanis have gotten used to feeling unsafe and afraid. Today they are feeling even more unsafe and afraid. And that is no accident.

Afraid and unsafe is exactly how the butchers who tortured and then murdered Syed Saleem Shahzad want us to feel.

Those who brutally murdered journalist, and author of the recent book Inside Al-Qaeda and the Taliban, Syed Saleem Shahzad clearly wanted to silence him. But the calculated and staged ‘delivery’ of his murdered body was meant to do more than just silence a journalist. It was an attempt to silence a society.

The message to Saleem Shahzad was cold and bloody and brutal. The message to Pakistanis – and not just journalists, but all who may dare to ‘speak up’ – was equally cold and bloody and brutal. Of course, nothing can compare to the fatal, ultimate and irreversible wounds that were inflicted on Saleem Shahzad. But the chill that ran down the spine of all Pakistanis was also real. Let us not doubt for a moment that this was a calculated act. That this chill is exactly what his murderers wanted to deliver.

Murder, as an article in Dawn pointed out, is “the severest form of censorship” on he who is murdered. But it is also the most chilling of messaging for all others. What was delivered to Pakistanis today was not just the dead body of a journalist, but the proverbial “horse’s head” (as in The Godfather) – a promise to impose censorship “by all means necessary.”

The article in Dawn, by Adnan Rehmat, makes for chilling reading itself:

Syed Saleem Shahzad has joined the unacceptably long list of over 70 journalists who have been killed in the line of duty in Pakistan since 2000. How has Pakistan become the most dangerous country to practice journalism?

… The violence that has engulfed Pakistan for the last decade did not leave the media immune to its consequences. While there have been journalists who have been killed in bomb blasts in markets, processions and funerals across the country, caught in the wrong place and wrong time, the last three years have seen a rise against target killings of journalists in Pakistan. At least 17 have been killed this way.

The number of journalists who were target-killed grew sharply after the media stopped self-censoring themselves too much in the wake of the footage of a girl being flogged by the Taliban in Swat, which proved a turning point in the media losing its fear of the Taliban. This was the beginning of a more unrestrained narrative on terrorism which injected grim realism in reporting. The consequence of the media finding that the public was receptive to this kind of reporting promoted a culture of risk taking which first generated warnings from the Taliban to the media to “behave.” When there was no major change in the behavior and attitude of the media, the killings began.

While over 70 have been killed, a staggering 2,000-plus have been injured, arrested or kidnapped – a large number of them by the military regime of General Pervez Musharraf. But while the militants had been hounding and hurting the journalists since 2002, the “Musharraf treatment” added a new dimension to the policy of intolerance for media openness and pluralisms. In one single instance nearly 120 journalists were arrested in Karachi in one fell swoop and in another single incident about 140 in Islamabad by Musharraf’s thugs. It is this state sanction for this kind of intolerance of media independence that has now allowed the level of impunity where many journalists have been killed with the suspicion for most falling on the security establishment.

The fact that the killers of not even one Pakistani journalist killed has been found, prosecuted and punished has meant the media has been an easy target.

Saleem’s death is not ordinary even among the long list of journalists killed in Pakistan in recent years. Because his last news story attempted to establish that the security establishment had been in talks with al Qaeda to negotiate a deal that would prevent attacks on it, it is reasonable to assume that this claim was linked with his kidnap, torture and murder. He had told a friend a day after the report was published that this was just the tip of the proverbial iceberg and that he would be filing a couple of major stories that would rattle many.

Whether it was the security establishment that killed him or the declared terrorists, the fact is he was killed for daring to attempt to share information that affected the country and its people… Saleem’s death signals that dirty secrets will not easily be allowed to be shared with the people of Pakistan.

Details in the accompanying news report in Dawn add even more chilling details to this context:

It was confirmed by the capital police as well as its counterparts in Mandi Bahauddin that a body buried in a local graveyard at Mandi Bahauddin was suspected to be that of (Saleem) Shahzad, an Islamabad-based journalist who had gone missing from the capital on Sunday evening. He had disappeared en route to a news channel’s office in Sector F-6 from his house in F-8/4.

Shahzad, who was the bureau chief for the Hong Kong-based Asia Times, an online publication, and the Italian news agency Adnkronos (AKI) and had worked for the Dawn Media Group’s evening newspaper Star for over a decade, was known for his investigative reporting on militancy and Al Qaeda. He had moved to Islamabad after Star closed down in 2007. His book, “Inside Al-Qaeda & the Taliban: Beyond Bin Laden and 9/11”, had recently been published.

After his disappearance, the Human Rights Watch alleged that Shahzad had been picked up by the ISI and that the intelligence agency had threatened him last year as well when he had reported on the quiet release of Mullah Baradar, an aide to Mullah Omar, who had been captured by Pakistan earlier. Ali Dayan, Pakistan researcher for HRW, also made public an email that Shahzad had sent then with the instructions to make it public in case something happened to him. The email provided Shahzad’s account of a meeting he held with two ISI officials on October 17, 2010. After he disappeared on Sunday, there were allegations that he had been picked up by the ISI because of his recent story on the PNS Mehran base attack. Shahzad had reported that the attack took place after the Navy identified and interrogated a few of its lower-level officers for their ties with Al Qaeda.

… On Tuesday it came to light that the body found at Head Rasul a day earlier was of the missing journalist. He was identified from the photos taken of the corpse on Tuesday during the postmortem at District Headquarters Hospital Mandi Bahauddin. The police force’s efficiency knew no bounds on Tuesday. First the police force of Sara-i-Alamgir found an abandoned Toyota Corolla, which belonged to Shahzad, near the Upper Jhelum Canal. The vehicle, which had gone missing along with the journalist, had a broken window and a damaged ignition switch, hinting at car theft. The police also found two CNICs and press cards, as well as other documents pertaining to Shahzad. They then contacted the Margalla police in Islamabad.

Once the police from Islamabad examined the car and determined its owner’s identity, they were informed by their counterparts that the Mandi Bahauddin police had found a body a day earlier. According to the details collected by Dawn, some passersby spotted a corpse in the water on Monday. The Head Rasul police shifted the body to the DHQ. Unusually quickly for Pakistani police, all legal formalities were completed, the autopsy was conducted on the unidentified body and it was handed over to Edhi Centre for burial. It was interred at the local graveyard temporarily.

According to the police, the postmortem report said that Shahzad had been subjected to severe torture. The report said he had 15 major injuries including fractured ribs and deep wounds on the abdomen. It was also evident that the journalist’s hands and feet had been tied as there were marks on his wrists and ankles. However, his hands and feet were not tied when he was found. The police said that the victim had been killed in the early hours of Monday.

The Mandi Bahauddin police told the capital police that there was no mortuary at the DHQ and Edhi Centre to keep the body; hence the pace at which it was buried. The family, which was contacted by the capital police, identified him from the photographs, clothes and cards. Shahzad leaves behind a widow and three children.

There is little that one can add to these descriptions. And it seems hallow to simply say that we should refuse to feel unsafe and afraid. How else can one possibly feel today?

Except that there is that other horrible truth staring us in the face today. A truth that Syed Saleem Shahzad – who himself must have felt far more unsafe and afraid than any of us can possibly feel – was no doubt aware of and probably acted upon: Feeling unsafe and afraid is no cure for feeling unsafe and afraid. It leads only to an even greater insecurity and fear.

146 Comments on “Death of a Journalist. Warning to a Nation.”

  1. HarooN says:
    June 1st, 2011 11:36 am

    What a tragedy and how very sad. Feel hopeless today. Kind of like I did when Salman Taseer was murdered.

  2. Bushra says:
    June 1st, 2011 11:46 am

    If the ISI really did this then we are truly doomed!

  3. Noor says:
    June 1st, 2011 11:48 am

    Tragic indeed.

    نثار میں تیری گلیوں کے اے وطن
    جہاں چلی ہے رسم کہ کوئی نہ سر اٹھا کے چلے

  4. walking_by says:
    June 1st, 2011 11:52 am

    RIP Saleem Shahzad. You dared to speak the Truth to those in power. For that the world will be eternally grateful. May your Life and body of work inspire others.

  5. Eidee Man says:
    June 1st, 2011 11:58 am

    The criminal, thug, rotten-to-the-core military strikes again.

    Apparently, in the trial going on in Chicago, Headley testified that the ISI was not involved in the Mumbai attacks. You know what? I believe him. Seems like ISI would be way too busy assaulting journalists, cutting deals with crooked politicians, and keeping a motherly gaze over Osama.

  6. J.S.K. says:
    June 1st, 2011 11:58 am

    What a sad day this is.

    I do feel unsafe and afriad. But your last line is very powerful : Feeling unsafe and afraid is no cure for feeling unsafe and afraid.

  7. Gardezi says:
    June 1st, 2011 11:59 am

    Inna Lillah wa Inna Ilayhee Raje’oon
    May his killers rot in hell, whether they are the Taliban or the ISI (I woudl not be surprised if it was either, but I really think that with his new book and reporting it was more likely the Taliban).

  8. Samdani says:
    June 1st, 2011 12:09 pm

    tujh ko kitnoun ka laho chaheeaye aye arz i watan

  9. Musaddiq Virk says:
    June 1st, 2011 12:13 pm

    God save Pakistan from ISI!

  10. NAEEM says:
    June 1st, 2011 12:15 pm

    This is the Al Qaeda and Taliban work more than ISI.
    As teh Adnan Rehmat article in Dawn says, after the swat flogging video, the media got more aggressive against the Taliban and they have gotten more aggressive against the media. In Saleem’s case, it was his new book that really got him into this trouble with the Taliban.

  11. SAM says:
    June 1st, 2011 12:28 pm

    For a long time now, i have spoken amongst colleagues and friends on how ultimately the demise of Pakistan would be the result of how its Army works within the country. People here are trying to accuse Taliban behind an innocent persons murder (Taliban could be the culprits) but this murder has all the hallmarks of the a state agence (notably: the mother of all agencies a.k.a mother of all f$#% ups in Pakistan). A lot of similarities exist between this murder and all the murders that the state has been carrying out in Balochistan.

  12. Azra says:
    June 1st, 2011 12:34 pm

    Tragic. Are we all not to blame for bringing the nation to this stage.

  13. Kamran says:
    June 1st, 2011 12:44 pm

    A sad sad day. And another powerful powerful post from Prof. Najam. But please be careful Prof. Najam, no one is safe these days. Your words are courageous, but courage is not well respected in our neighborhoods these days.

  14. pakistani says:
    June 1st, 2011 1:14 pm

    ISI may or may not have had anything to do with this. But it is clear from this incident and the reaction to it that ISI has lost all public credibility in Pakistan.

  15. faraz says:
    June 1st, 2011 2:10 pm

    Either one of two conclusion.

    1) Either ISI did it.
    2) Or ISI is totally useless.

    In any way Pakistan is doomed. We are better without this army.

  16. June 1st, 2011 2:14 pm

    journalists would never lay down their head before any culprits who wanted to stop for writing true but all journalists should continue their missions with more passion and hardworking after assassination of saleem shahzaid

    Liaquat jadoon a journalist

  17. Inasu Chirayath says:
    June 1st, 2011 2:18 pm

    This is sad news, I will buy his book for sure, at least his family will benefit from the royalties.

  18. Copper says:
    June 1st, 2011 2:19 pm

    Human Rights Watch’s Ali Hasan Dayan says that he was contacted by someone from ISI that he is in their custody and would be released on Monday. ISI’s involvement is highly likely.

  19. Jawaid Islam says:
    June 1st, 2011 2:56 pm

    Allah Pakistan aur us mein basne wale begunah aur na darr shehryon kee hifazat farmaye.

    Sad for the nation; tragic death, brutal killing by the ghunda elements in our society / establishment. The journalists should take action.

  20. NIhari says:
    June 1st, 2011 5:11 pm

    The reason, the last straw which made the BEAST killed him

    http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/ME27Df06.html

  21. IKN says:
    June 1st, 2011 5:37 pm

    What a shame … we kill people who have the courage to inform us! Whether it is the ISI or terrorists who tortured and pulled the trigger to kill Shahzad we will never know. The real KILLERS are all of US collectively as we have accepted all the injustices and incompetent leaders both of the official civilian governement and the real military/ISI government. We ALL Pakistanis have Shahzad’s blood on our hands.

  22. Khuram Khan says:
    June 1st, 2011 6:15 pm

    A life has been takan away and another sad story for us. Our enemies have succeeded in demonising the ISI, an agency considered a threat to them. Orions were also a threat to them. This agency countered the CIA , RAW and MOSSAD with its limited capabilities alone. Some times I do not believe the comments from our countrymen and women but the events have overtaken our rationality.Have we forgotten Raymond Davis? Why could not this be a similar operation by that notorious setup? It has all the ingredients. Why do not we recognise the real enemy? We have a number of our citizens on their payrole. We need to take a deep breath and identify our friends and enemies. What is IB under Rehman Malik doing? What is its role? And what is he doing himself? After 1965 India modified its national objective from destroying Pakistan to destroying Pakistan Army. She could not do it in 1971 because of our resolute nation.Now India is getting it done through us. I still believe she will not succeed again because of us InsaAllah.

  23. F K says:
    June 1st, 2011 6:48 pm

    Eidee,

    Wanted to let you know that Headley in his trial said that the entire ISI as an organization was not involved but there were a handful of ISI operatives who were involved in planning the attack. Pakistan’s government has also accepted this fact. The point of contention is not whether ISI officials were involved (since that was already proven supposedly) but whether it was in an official capacity (according to Headley, the US and Pakistan, it was not). Don’t know whether it is true or not, but this is what he said during the trial.

    Also, I like this comment above:
    “After 1965 India modified its national objective from destroying Pakistan to destroying Pakistan Army. She could not do it in 1971 because of our resolute nation.”

    After 1965, India modified its objective from destroying Pakistan to destroying Pakistan’s army…yet in 1971 they destroyed Pakistan? Looks like someone forgot to spread the message about the change in their objectives (but somehow they managed to communicate it to you).
    I’m glad Pakistan’s army did not lose in 1971 because of its resoluteness, just let me know what planet you are living on, I’d like to move there.

    So the CIA killed a journalist to demonize the ISI. They killed a journalist who had written on the links between the Pakistani navy and al-Qaeada to demonize the ISI. If the CIA wanted to demonize the ISI, wouldn’t they protect the journalist and help spread more stories about links between intelligence agencies, the armed forces and al-Qaeda?

  24. Muhammed Umer Farooq says:
    June 1st, 2011 6:53 pm

    The ISI and the terrorists: two sides of the same coin.

  25. Running_free says:
    June 1st, 2011 7:07 pm

    Kamran,

    The suggestion to Prof. Najam to stay safe is a wise one. However, as long as he restricts himself to criticism and does not go digging into the ISI’s murky activites like Syed Saleem Shazad or Daniel Pearl, he should face no specific dangers. Pearl and SSS were both courageous and Pearl perhaps did not know any better, but having worked so long reporting on terrorism and intelligence issues, SSS should have known how dangerous it was to present information to the world that indicted the ISI. Particularly when it is so much under scrutiny due to the OBL episode, Headley’s testimony in Chicago and a lawsuit underway in a New York court to declare it a terrorist organization and proclaim its leadership as criminals. Poor guy paid with his life for crossing the boundary.

  26. Khuram Khan says:
    June 1st, 2011 8:10 pm

    You did not interpret correctly what you quoted. Do not separate nation from its Army. Unless you are already on a different planet, do consider moving where ever it is.

  27. Izaz Haque says:
    June 1st, 2011 8:51 pm

    Saleem Shahzad gave his life for a cause. The least the rest of us can do is stand up and be counted for him.

  28. June 1st, 2011 9:38 pm

    CENTCOM is saddened by the murder of journalist, Syed Saleem Shahzad, of Asia Times. Shahzad was a brave journalist who was not afraid to raise difficult questions when too many people reach for convenient conspiracy theories to explain events — and sadly, he was killed for it.

    Our condolences go out to his family and friends and to the Pakistani nation, which has given so much in this war on terror. Murders like this can only be stopped when we are able to overcome the terror threat that challenges peace on this planet.

    CDR Bill Speaks
    DET-United States Central Command
    http://www.centcom.mil/ur

    http://islamabad.usembassy.gov/pr_060111.html

  29. ashok pai says:
    June 1st, 2011 10:46 pm

    It’s nice to see the citizen of Pakistan standing up to the atrocities of rogue elements inside the administration – the military/ government/ police – all have failed to keep law and order/ justice as it should have been. Pakistan is on the brink, and nothing less than a complete revolution will stop it from the downward spiral. this probably is the jasmine revolution time for the citizens of Pakistan. stand up and be counted. get rid of the self serving despots, and Pakistan will probably be back to where it was before – a progressive country, that will soon be counted as a developing nation.

  30. shahid says:
    June 1st, 2011 11:04 pm

    A brave man is killed because he dared to speak what some cowards wielding power did not want the silent majority to hear.

    The cowards are gloating with happiness that some other brave person will be terrorized in keeping silent

    The cowards are celebrating the kill.

    A black day for humanity and Pakistan.

  31. Nihari says:
    June 2nd, 2011 2:49 am

    Alas an honest voice…..Take your knives out

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlbSyaCH3C8&feature=share

  32. Bangash says:
    June 2nd, 2011 3:29 am

    This is a criminal murder committed by ISI, and only underlines the gross stupidity and incompetence of Pakistani security forces.

  33. Faizan says:
    June 2nd, 2011 10:36 am

    This really has been one of the most depressing news in a very depressing time. May he rest in peace.

    I also worry about your safety, Dr. Najam. These are not good times for those who speak up. Please be careful.

  34. Anwer says:
    June 2nd, 2011 10:45 am

    پکارتا رہا بے آسرا یتیم لہو

    کسی کو بہر سماعت نہ وقت تھا نہ دماغ

    نہ مدعی نہ شہادت حساب پاک ھوا

    یہ خوں خاک نشیناں تھا رزق خاک ھوا

    http://www.dawn.com/2011/05/08/hrcp-voices-concern-over-killings-in-balochistan.html

    HRCP voices concern over killings in Balochistan

    QUETTA, May 7: The Human Rights Commission of Pakistan (HRCP) has expressed deep concern over the continuing disappearance of people, target killings and finding of bullet-riddled bodies in Balochistan and called upon the provincial government to ensure law and order.

    Speaking at a press conference here on Saturday, HRCP chairperson Zahra Yousuf said that a fact-finding mission of the commission visited different areas of Balochistan and collected evidence of the alleged involvement of security forces in these incidents. A detailed report of the fact-finding mission would be released soon, she said.

    She said the fact-finding mission had observed that a commission set up to investigate the cases of missing persons had been largely ineffective, leading to frustration among people. The mission noted that bodies carried signs of torture and 33 bodies had been found in Khuzdar at a rate of one body every three days.

    She condemned the killing of HRCP activists Siddique Eido and Naeem Sabir. Mr Eido went missing in December and his body was found in Ormara on April 28, while Mr Sabir was shot dead in Khuzdar in March.

    Ms Yousuf said the mission had observed that the civil administration and elected representatives appeared to have ceded their powers to security forces.

    She claimed that there was strong evidence of complicity of security forces in extra-judicial killings and cited a case in which the Frontier Corps personnel killed five men in a house in Turbat while the family members were willing to surrender them.

    The HRCP chairperson said the fact-finding mission recommended that enforced disappearances must end because it was a negation of the rule of law that missing persons were not produced before courts of law but their mutilated bodies were found.

    Human rights activists Kamran Arif, Dr Mehdi Hasan, Hussain Naqi and Tahir Hussain were present at the press conference.

  35. shuaib says:
    June 2nd, 2011 12:22 pm

    Is there any evidence that it was done by ISI?

  36. June 2nd, 2011 1:52 pm

    I was watching a english movie today – “Mighty Heart” it was excatly the same story as what happened with our journalist today. However I loved the way their media expressed the loss of thier people. Do watch movie to get a complete overview of what i meant to say.

  37. ASHU says:
    June 2nd, 2011 6:05 pm

    hii FK,

    pakistanis have the habit of blaming everything on india , whether it be an attack . killing or even a natural calamity. is it the same for this case too?

  38. Santosh Kumar says:
    June 2nd, 2011 7:09 pm

    Prof. Pervez Hoodbhoy wrote an artile on May 30, 2011; how internal situation in Pakistan is reconfugerating post Osama death. It’s really sad that a country which was born from the very notion to progress as a Islamic nation is divided lot on the lines of extremists, fundamentalists, sceptics and optimists. The internal institutions of government have started distrusting one another. There seems to be lack of coordinations in different organs of government. The civilian, military, intelligence and public have started losing faith from one another. What’s wrong? The presence of US forces, weak leadership, dictracted from development path …so on. But what really needs to reign in rising factionalism in Pakistan.

  39. F K says:
    June 2nd, 2011 7:30 pm

    Well, some Pakistanis may blame India, some blame the CIA, some blame ISI, some say that they just don’t know etc. It depends who you ask. India is blamed for a lot but the same can be said about Indians blaming Pakistan. Indians blame Pakistanis for everything from currency smuggling, narcotics in India, criminal enterprises, arming rebel groups etc going by their media. You can’t really generalize about what people think, but if we went by the media of both countries, it looks like Indians blame Pakistanis for everything and vice versa.

    The only difference that I see is that India may blame Pakistan in public (and maybe in private) but they address the issue. They don’t just sloganeer for votes then sit and do nothing, at least with issues of national security. After blaming Pakistan, they still go and fight the Maoists or Assamese or Kashmiri or whatever, they stop currency smugglers, etc. In Pakistan, people will blame India (substitute this for Israel or US depending on the talking head who comes up with the theory) but never address the issue. Taliban bomb a girls’ school: everyone will come out and say that India is behind it. If someone wants to send the army to fight the Taliban, those same people will say that the US is making Pakistan’s army fight “other Muslims”. At the end of the day, nothing productive happens and a day later another bombing happens and the cycle goes on. It’s pathetic that these bombings have been going for years yet people will still not come out and say that the Taliban are the enemies of Pakistan. Let’s say that the CIA is in fact arming and funding the Taliban’s attacks in Pakistan. That still doesn’t explain why the army shouldn’t fight the Taliban. No one is willing to seriously tackle the issues facing Pakistan. Having rallies and condemning America, India and Israel is very easy and a good way to promote yourself and your party, but what good does it do for the country? By shifting the focus away from the people who are actually attacking Pakistan, these people are causing a lot of harm to Pakistan.

  40. razia says:
    June 2nd, 2011 7:49 pm

    i said it before, i say it again: as long as the us with its web of spies and vast military apparatus remains in the region we’ll never know who does what with any certainty.

    after the raymond davis and the abbottabad drama there should be no doubt in any one’s mind what the us’s agenda in pakistan is, i.e. to dismember pakistan and take control of nuclear weapons. to believe otherwise is to be naive and live in fool’s paradise

  41. F K says:
    June 2nd, 2011 8:20 pm

    If the US wanted to “dismember Pakistan” they could do so easily by withdrawing all civilian and military aid and asking their allies Saudi Arabia and UAE to do the same. As sad as it is, Pakistan would not be able to function for more than a few months. It is one of the top recipients of foreign aid in every category (not just from the US).

    The US and Israel were able to disrput Iran’s nuclear reactors using a computer virus (Stuxnet). With 100,000 soldiers in Afghanistan, CIA agents in the region and all of these assets/technical knowledge at their disposal, if the United States wanted to get rid of Pakistan’s nuclear program, they would’ve done so years ago. Forget nuclear weapons, even Pakistan’s F-16s are under constant surveillance of the US since they were supplied by them. The US has full knowledge of Pakistan’s nuclear program (also I’m sure you are aware that Pakistan’s first nuclear power plant was built with Canada’s help) and if they wanted, they could end it at any time. That is reality.

  42. Eidee Man says:
    June 2nd, 2011 9:02 pm

    @Santosh Kumar
    “It’s really sad that a country which was born from the very notion to progress as a Islamic nation is divided lot on the lines of extremists, fundamentalists, sceptics and optimists.”

    Actually, that’s a common misconception. At the time of its founding, Pakistan was intended to be a Muslim state, and NOT an Islamic state; there is quite a difference between the two.

  43. Bangash says:
    June 2nd, 2011 10:40 pm

    Some Pakistanis like “razia” continue to turn everything into a drama and keep their heads firmly in the sand. What is needed is to put the Armed Forces in their place, not continue living in total denial.

  44. Adnan says:
    June 3rd, 2011 12:40 am

    @Santosh Kumar: True. But the reason is that we did not pay attention to what our founding father,JInnah said who wanted to implement Shariah in Pakistan. Sadly Jinnah’s words were totally forgotten and abused hard lines liberals.

  45. Eidee Man says:
    June 3rd, 2011 5:57 am

    @Razia
    “i said it before, i say it again…”

    well, that simply highlights the stupidity on your part, since a huge number of face-slapping-obvious facts have been revealed in the recent months. So if you’re repeating the same thing, it means that your assessment is not based on facts.

  46. Meengla says:
    June 3rd, 2011 6:25 am

    I have a long list of grudges against the army, starting from the coup against ZAB, hanging of ZAB, the plots against Benazir Bhutto.
    But…in this case. I don’t think ISI did this. ISI is cornered and the last thing they want is even this be blamed on them.
    There are too many in and around Pakistan–not just the Talibans–who are involved in so much inside Pakistan. To frame ISI and the Pakistani army is the way to cripple Pakistan.

    I am extremely sorry and sad at Shehzad’s death. Like I felt when Salman Taseer and Shahbaz Bhatti was killed. And I have been accused of a ‘liberal’ here most of the time. But this is my understanding of this event so far.

  47. BAngash says:
    June 3rd, 2011 7:41 am

    @Meengla

    Picking up journalists for a good thrashing is a tactic only the intelligence agencies of Pakistan use. Saleem Shahzad’s body was weak because he had suffered a gunshot wound some years ago, but survived. The intelligence buffoons did not know this when they were beating Shahzad, resulting in his accidental death. They then hurriedly buried the body.

    My view of Pakistan Armed Forces has completely changed in the last few years. I now see them as mediocre organizations run by arrogant and incompetent generals.

    I now honestly fear for Pakistan, I hope the country is still intact 30 years from now but am not sure.

  48. Nihari says:
    June 3rd, 2011 8:32 am

    Hameed Haroon’s statement

    KARCHI: Hameed Haroon, president of the All Pakistan Newspapers Society, has sharply reacted to the denial by the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) regarding its involvement in the abduction and murder of Pakistani journalist Saleem Shahzad. The ISI has denied any role in the murder and termed the allegation of Human Right’s Watch (HRW) as “baseless”.

    Haroon, also the chief executive officer of Dawn, has confirmed that the slain journalist had received threatening messages from ISI on at least three occasions. The deceased had not only informed his employer, Asia Time Online, but also confided in Haroon and other friends.

    Following is the full text of his statement, released to the media on June 2, 2011.

    “It has come to my notice that a spokesman of Inter Services Intelligence (ISI) while speaking to the official national news agency in Islamabad yesterday has questioned the “baseless allegations” leveled by Human Rights Watch on the basis of an E mail from Saleem Shahzad, the Bureau Chief of the Hong Kong based Asia Times Online, in their possession . Mr Shahzad was murdered three days ago near Islamabad after being abducted by unknown persons.

    “I wish to state on record that the e mail in the possession of Mr Ali Dayan, the monitor for Human Rights Watch (HRW) stationed in ,Lahore Pakistan, is indeed one of the three identical E mails sent by Mr Shahzad to HRW , his employers (Asia Times Online) and to his former employer, myself . I also wish to verify that allegations levied by HRW at the Inter services Intelligence (ISI) are essentially in complete consonance with the contents of the slain journalists E mail ”

    “In their denial issued Wednesday an anonymous spokesman from the ISI has questioned the “baseless allegation” leveled against ISI by Mr Dayan of HRW. I wish to state on the record for the information of the officers involved in investigating journalist Saleem Shahzad’s gruesome murder that the late journalist confided to me and several others that he had received death threats from various officers of the ISI on at least three occasions in the past five years. Whatever the substance of these allegations , they form an integral part of Mr Shahzad’s last testimony. Mr Shahzad’s purpose in transmitting this information to three concerned colleagues in the media ,was not to defame the ISI but to avert a possible fulfillment of what he clearly perceived to be a death threat. The last threat which I refer to was recorded by Mr Shahzad by e mail with me, tersely phrased as “for the record”, at precisely 4.11 am on October18,2010, wherein he recounted the details of his meetings at the ISI headquarters in Islamabad between the Director General- Media Wing (ISI) Rear- Admiral Adnan Nazir, with the Deputy Director General of the Media Wing, Commodore Khalid Pervaiz, also being present on the occasion.

    The ostensible agenda for this meeting was the subject of Mr Shahzads’s story of Asia Times Online with respect to the Pakistan government freeing of senior Afghan Taliban commander, Mullah Baraadar. Mr Shahzad informed the senior officials that he story was leaked by an intelligence channel in Pakistan, and confirmed thereafter by the ” most credible Taliban s source” . The senior officials present suggested to Mr Shahzad that he officially deny the story, which he refused to do, terming the official’s demand as “impractical”

    The senior intelligence official was “curious” to identify the source of Mr Shahzad’s story claiming it to be a “shame” that such a leak should occur from the offices of a high profile intelligence service. Mr Shahzad additionally stated that the Rear -Admiral offered him some information, ostensibly “as a favour ” in the following words : ” We have recently arrested a terrorist and have recovered a lot of data, diaries and other materials during the interrogation. The terrorist had a hit list with him. If I find your name on the list I will certainly let you know.”

    Mr Shahzad subsequently confirmed to me in a conversation that he not only interpreted this conversation as a veiled threat to his person. He also informed me that he let an official from the ISI know soon thereafter that he intended share the content of this threat with his colleagues ..

    As President of the All Pakistan Newspapers Society (APNS) and as head of Pakistan’s leading media group I consider the security of journalists to be of paramount importance. At present the APNS has officially committed itself to the creation of a national body for the investigations of serious threats to the lives of journalists, a body which the Committee to Protect the Journalists in New York, and other leading organizations in the Pakistani press and human rights bodies have promised to lend vigorous support to. Pakistan has one of the high rates in the world for journalists’ killings and such an environment is inimical to the functioning of democracy. The government and the intelligence agencies should take the investigation into Mr Shahzad’s murder seriously and examine his last testimony closely.

    Whether the Oct 18th incident itself or his last article in the Asia Times Online, that alleged Al-Qaeda penetration of the security curtain for Pakistani Naval establishment in Karachi hastened his murder is for the official investigation to uncover. And nobody not even the ISI should be above the law”.

    Hameed Haroon

    President

    All Pakistan Newspapers Society

  49. razia says:
    June 3rd, 2011 9:45 am

    مَثَلُهُمۡ كَمَثَلِ ٱلَّذِى ٱسۡتَوۡقَدَ نَارً۬ا فَلَمَّآ أَضَآءَتۡ مَا حَوۡلَهُ ۥ ذَهَبَ ٱللَّهُ بِنُورِهِمۡ وَتَرَكَهُمۡ فِى ظُلُمَـٰتٍ۬ لَّا يُبۡصِرُونَ (Their likeness is as the likeness of one who kindleth fire, and when it sheddeth its light around him Allah taketh away their light and leaveth them in darkness, where they cannot see. 2:17)
    regarding the united states I was in the dark for a long time, but now my eyes and ears are wide open and I have taken 180 degree turn. I cannot un-see what I have seen or un-hear what I have heard.

    omg, when will they ever learn? Heard of wmd, gulf of tonkin, operation northwoods, ..? how many example does one need to believe that false flag is one of their most effective tools to start their wars.

    “since a huge number of face-slapping-obvious facts have been revealed in the recent months.” I have not seen any evidence of any recent happening much less huge number. eidee man would you please enlighten me with references supporting some of the huge number of ‘obvious facts’.

    For god’s sake, for Pakistan’s sake or for the sake of any one you hold dear, please let’s not fight with each other or call names. That serves no purpose except that of the enemies of Pakistan. Please take a look at this article by zafar bangash, watch these videos, and/or do your own research but don’t take the pentagon/cia/us word for a gospel, unless they show clear verifiable evidence, which they have not so far be it 9/11 or obl murder.

    http://tiny.cc/zafarbangash
    http://tiny.cc/mysteriousdeaths
    http://tiny.cc/ussenterprise
    http://tiny.cc/falseflag

  50. walking_by says:
    June 3rd, 2011 11:59 am

    @Eidee Man:

    You said “Pakistan was intended to be a Muslim state, and NOT an Islamic state; there is quite a difference between the two”.

    Can you spell out the differences between the two? Particularly in terms of Constitution, governance, state-versus-religion etc.

  51. Gangly Khan says:
    June 3rd, 2011 2:14 pm

    Killing of journalist is sad incidence. Every one feel pain over his death. Army personnel in defence of the country are killed every day in dozens. But their killing does not stir any one except their heirs and relatives. The media persons in order to please their bosses take undue risks and some time play a dangerous game of being double agent for earning lucrative remunerations so in doing so they face death. Media men learn lesson from the death of Sehzad’s death and they should not put themselves in risks for money..

  52. Khuram Khan says:
    June 3rd, 2011 5:40 pm
  53. razia says:
    June 3rd, 2011 5:52 pm

    @eidee man
    “.. stupidity on your part, since a huge number of face-slapping-obvious facts have been revealed in the recent months. ..”

    eidee man, you can disagree with me without being rude.

    would you please enlighten me with references supporting some of the huge number of ‘obvious facts’, I have not seen any evidence of any recent happening much less huge number.

  54. razia says:
    June 3rd, 2011 5:58 pm

    For god’s sake, for Pakistan’s sake or for the sake of any one you hold dear, please let’s not fight with each other or call names. That serves no purpose except that of the enemies of Pakistan. Please take a look at this article by zafar bangash, watch these videos, and/or do your own research but don’t take the pentagon/cia/us word for a gospel, unless they show clear verifiable evidence, which they have not so far be it 9/11 or obl murder.

    http://tiny.cc/zafarbangash
    http://tiny.cc/mysteriousdeaths
    http://tiny.cc/ussenterprise
    http://tiny.cc/falseflag

  55. Bangash says:
    June 3rd, 2011 8:27 pm

    @razia
    Its not our job to spoon-feed you with facts that are visible to all, and which will be disregarded by you anyway.

    The TTP spokesman said some days ago that they will continue attacking Pakistan even after the US leaves, because they want to takeover Pakistan.

  56. Basheer says:
    June 4th, 2011 12:46 am

    This has been a very tragic incident, but I think it is also part of a turning point in civil-military relations. I think recent events have now made sure that military will not do its coups any more because people just do not trust them at all now.

  57. Adnan says:
    June 4th, 2011 1:03 am

    @Razia: It should not be surprising. Radical Jiyalay of PPP always lash back when someone hit right on target.

    @Bangash: And TTP is being funded by your friends across borders. I know that our “Brave” Bangash guy did not even have courage to type anything against those who are funding them.

    On a related note, while our puppet liberals continue their mourning against Taliban and being cyber commando to defeat their opponents, US on other hand is preparing to hug Taliban leaders and opening all doors for them. What should it be called? A Slap? Where is that Nali Nihari? Is he ready to accept another “American” thing, this time, a slap?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/13647281

    Time is coming when these so called liberals would be beaten up by both Talibans and Americans and they would not even get chance to hide themselves in some American version “Tora Bora” *grin*

  58. Meengla says:
    June 4th, 2011 5:12 am

    @Bangash,
    I am not a great admirer of the army or the ISI myself. But I DO care for Pakistan enough to see that a noose is being tightened around Pakistan, as a country, since the OBL raid.
    The OBL raid generated so much noise–much to target Pakistan, its military, and indeed ISI. But that was just what it was–noise. No evidence of complicity. ***Look up a couple of Donald Rumsfeld interviews about the raid. He stresses that OBL could have conceivably hide ‘in the plain sight’ and that OBL would be ‘very afraid’ of the Pakistani military.***

    BUT. So much noise has been made that weak-kneed people have gone from self-flagellation to self-destruction mode.

    As I see it what is being hatched inside Pakistan is to cripple Pakistani state by targeting its strongest institutions since the OBL raid. Based on media noise Pakistan is being asked to ‘do more’ ever more aggressively.

    Coming back to Shehzad’s article, what he covered and reported was actually HELPFUL to the Pakistani security agencies: They nabbed some jihadi naval personnels and in turn had to face the wrath of the militants by attacking PNS Mehran. Why would then security agencies, then, kill Shehzad? Especially now when the noose is being tightened.

    Sorry. I may have been called a PPP ‘Jiyala’ or a ‘libera’ by the likes of @Adnan here but I refuse to believe everything I read in the news on either side of the debate.

    ****Based on my understanding of the situation I find it more likely that Shehzad was killed by someone who decided to put some more blame on the Pakistani military and ISI at this opportune moment. ***

  59. Anwer says:
    June 4th, 2011 5:46 am

    http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=201164\story_4-6-2011_pg7_23

    Makran strike enters 15th day

    * All routine activities in city suspended due to strike

    By Mohammad Zafar

    QUETTA: There has been a complete shutter-down strike in the entire Makran Division for the past 15 days after recovery of bullet-riddled bodies of political opponents, educationists and ordinary people following hostage-taking and illegal detention.

    A government teacher, Tanveer Baloch, a resident of Panjgur, said that from the last 15 days educational institutions, banks and the post office have been closed because every other day we receive dead bodies of students, political workers and others.

    He said that the citizens were facing problems in getting their salaries because all the banks ware closed. “There is nothing to eat as all the shops are also closed. Even if some shops are open, we do not have the money to buy things,” Tanveer said. He added that bank managers were receiving threats not to open banks otherwise they would be responsible for their and the lives of their staff. The government will not protect the life and property of the people, including the employees of the banks.

    Separaretly, a complete shutter-down strike was also observed in Panjgur, Gwadar, Turbat, Pasni, Jiwani, Ormata, Mastung Khuzdar, Surab, Kalat Naushki Dalbandin and other areas of Quetta on Friday to condemn the killings of National Party leader Nasim Jangiyan and prominent Baloch intellectual and University of Balochistan professor Saba Dashtiari.

    The strike call was given by the National Party and the Baloch National Front, which was supported by all the political parties and student organisations. All shops, markets, commercial establishments, banks and even pharmacies and restaurants remained closed for the day. Traffic remained thin on the road with people preferring to stay home due to the strike.

  60. Bangash says:
    June 4th, 2011 8:44 am

    Indeed the noose is being tightened around Pakistan Armed Forces since May 2nd, however it is the Pakistan Armed Forces who are providing and tightening the noose with their bad performance and foolish policies which are coming home to roost. The institution called Pakistan “strongest” has been exposed as a fraud, who can’t even defeat terrorists or secure their own bases. The condemnation you have seen in May was Pakistanis demanding accountability and performance but the Military, not “self-destruction”.

    One peculiar aspect of Pakistani politics is the PPP’s constant desire to protect the Army, despite the fact that Zulfiqar Bhutto, Benazir Bhutto, Murtaza Bhutto, Salman Taseer, all were either killed by the Establishment or proxies/frankensteins of the Establishment. Not saying this is a bad thing, but just peculiar from my point of view.

  61. Eidee Man says:
    June 4th, 2011 9:27 am

    @walking_by

    I’m sorry you slept through history class, and have never picked up a book on Pakistan’s independence struggle. Any book on Jinnah written before the Zia era will be sufficient for driving the point home.

    Stanley Wolpert has written what is by far the most authoritative biography on Jinnah. Interestingly, Pakistan government welcomed him to do field research, interview people, etc, and Zia even promised to make the book mandatory reading for every child….but alas, he banned it later.

  62. Adnan says:
    June 4th, 2011 10:40 am

    @walk_by: Read the following by Jinnah and it would clear everything(except those who did not sleep in history classes yet they are ignorant and arrogant)


    It is my belief that our salvation lies in following the golden rules of conduct set for us by our great lawgiver, the Prophet of Islam. Let us lay the foundations of our democracy on the basis of true Islamic ideals and principles(Civil, Naval, Military and Air Force Officers at Khaliqdina Hall Karachi on 11th October 1947)

    So ignore what Stanport or any other idiot talks about and believes in what Jinnah says. I know that radical liberals would never like to see Jinnah as a Muslim or Pakistan as an Islamic/Muslim state. Every speech of Jinnah including “infamous” 11th August Speech is based on what Islam talks about governance.

    @Meengla: Do you comment here as Ediee Man as well? It does not matter what you believe. Fact is Fact. Your master US is gonna hug Talibans soon and both Talibans and US would beat you guys like hell. Deal with it.

  63. Eidee Man says:
    June 4th, 2011 11:52 am

    @Adnan,

    I’ll only respond to the part that’s worth responding to.

    No, I am not Meengla, although, yes, even I have noticed that we tend to agree on several things. He/she sounds like a brilliant person :-).

  64. walking_by says:
    June 4th, 2011 12:21 pm

    @Eidee Man:
    If you must snipe in reply to a question born out of genuine curiosity, fine. Bye.

    @Adnan:
    Try contrasting Jinnah’s 11 August speech with his speech on 11th October (the one you have quoted).

    On 11 August Jinnah said to the Constituent Assembly of Pakistan:

    You are free; you are free to go to your temples, you are free to go to your mosques or to any other place or worship in this State of Pakistan. You may belong to any religion or caste or creed that has nothing to do with the business of the State.

    A democracy based on true Islamic ideals and principles would mean that religion (in this case Islam) has something to do with the business of the state. There is also the problem of agreeing on what “true” Islamic ideas and principles means.

    I think that the contrast in views espoused by its founder at various times has persisted to this day in Pakistan. There is a spectrum of people varying from those who believe in Wahabi Islamism, to those who believe that Islam should guide governance to those who believe that religion should have nothing to do with State.

  65. Adnan says:
    June 4th, 2011 4:12 pm

    @Eidee: He/She is brilliant because he/she also lies ? Kiya baat hay Jiyalay Ki. Between how’s your drunk and corrupt leader, Sharmila who created messes a few days back in a plane?

    @walking_by: Jinnah’s “Infamous” 11th August speech is not different than what Hazrat Omar(RA) said when He entered in Jerusalem:


    “From the servant of Allah and the Commander of the Faithful, Omar: The inhabitants of Jerusalem are granted security of life and property. Their churches and crosses shall be secure. This treaty applies to all people of the city. Their places of worship shall remain intact. These shall neither be taken over nor pulled down. People shall be quite free to follow their religion. They shall not be put to any trouble…”

    Read this and Read Jinnah’s speech and then connect the 2 dots. What so called seculars try to associate with Jinnah is nothing but Islamic Shariah which gives more rights to minorities. Jinnah knew it well, quite well than those who are earning bucks by declaring themselves as Jinnah’s specialists.

  66. Meengla says:
    June 4th, 2011 6:28 pm

    @Adnan,
    “Your master US is gonna hug Talibans soon and both Talibans and US would beat you guys like hell. Deal with it.”

    Really a strange statement! Why would my ‘master’ US beat me like hell?! What have I done? Are you saying that US will ‘hug’ the Talibans and then let them lose on the ‘liberals’ like me?

    PS. I am not @Eidee Man. Although he/she does sound brilliant :)

  67. Bangash says:
    June 4th, 2011 9:27 pm

    Ilyas Kashmiri, a traitor and head of 313 Brigade, which is part of Alqaeda and suspected as the group behind Mumbai and PNS Mehran attacks, killed in a drone strike. I hope this news is correct : http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110604/ap_on_re_as/as_pakistan

  68. anticorruption says:
    June 4th, 2011 11:43 pm

    If this report of Ilyas Kashmiri’s elimination is correct, then my condolence message for people like Imran Khan, Ansar Abbassi, Shahid Masood, Ji leaders, and of course our resident Mr. Adnan Siddiqui who continue to have a soft cornor for these monsters and still insist on giving them political cover.

  69. Nihari says:
    June 4th, 2011 11:53 pm

    @adnan- great example of comparing the speech of Jinnah and Hazrat Umar…Let’s compare what happens next. In Jerusalem the minorities live peacefully under the muslim rule. Their places of worship were safeguarded by the Muslims. The only time they were destroyed and the population killed was at the time of the first Crusade when Jerusalem was captured by the crusader and the WHOLE population was decimated by the conquerors. The Muslim showed their golden principles again when Jerusalem was recaptured by Salahuddin and the population either lived peacefully or was allowed to leave peacefully. In Spain when it was re conquered by the Christians the Jews (who used to live peacefully under the Muslim rule) and the Muslims were either forcefully converted or were killed. These the poors. The rich muslim already took the ships to Northern Africa.
    Now look at what happens to Pakistan after that speech. Firstly that speech was intentionally censored. The voice of the Quaid of distorted during the radio transmission. The first official biography of the Quaid authored by Victor Bolitho also distorted/censored the words. They were even distorted when this speech was emboosed on the Supreme Court Building during Zia days when proudly converted ourselves to bigots. Minorities were butchered during partition. Please don’t tell me what happened to the migrating muslims in India, because Islam does not allow this behaviour under the worst circumstances. There used to be a sizeable Jewish population in Karachi which all migrated due to continuous persecution. There is still a sizeable population in Iran which is known to be a fundamentalist state. We criticize BJP for destroying the Babri mosque but how many temples were destroyed in Pakistan in retaliation. We have made laws to persecute our minorities again and again. We are the embarrassment of the Muslim world. An example that nobody should follow.

  70. Nihari says:
    June 5th, 2011 12:51 am

    @Adnan..Thanks for comparing the speeches of Hazrat Umar and the Quaid. Let’s see what happens next. The Jews and the Christians lived peacefully under the Islamic till the first crusade happens. The Crusaders decimated the entire population of Jerusalem. The golden principles of Islamic tolerance were again exercised when Salahuddin re conquered Jerusalem. All were either allowed to live or leave peacefully. In Spain, under the Islamic rule, minorities lived peacefully. Again when Fernando and Isabella retook Spain Muslim and Jews were forcefully converted or killed. The rich population already fled on ships to Northern Africa. I can give examples after examples.

    Jinnah speech was intentionally distorted. Firstly noice disruption was made when this passage was being broadcast on radio. When the first biography was authored by Victor Bolitho under the supervision of the Govt of Pakistan, this passage was changed. It was erased/changed under the bigot rule of General Zia on a wholesale basis. Just research about the history of this passage on the Supreme court building. The minorities were massacred during partition and were forced to migrate. Pls don’t give me the example how the Muslims received the same fate in India because Islam does not allow this behavior under any circumstance. There was a sizeable population of Jews who migrated from Pakistan en masse under threat of persecution. There are still a good population Jews in Iran which is known as a fundamentalist state. How many temples were destroyed in Pakistan as retribution of the destruction of the Babri mosque. What is the difference between the BJP and our Gairat brigade. Forget minorities, we even massacred our Bengali brothers under the garb of being traitors and Hindus. We in Pakistan, instead of follow the best examples of our traditions of tolerance and love, follow the worst examples of the Crusaders and Shiv sena. The exact reason we are an embarrassment to the whole Ummah

  71. razia says:
    June 5th, 2011 9:59 am

    there is a time for discussion and a time for action. pakistan is about to disintegrate before our eyes. instead of endless same old discussions why don’t people suggest solutions?

    i’d also like to know why people get so upset when i mention that the us war machinery should should be sent home? what do we have to lose?

  72. Adnan says:
    June 5th, 2011 10:50 am

    In a yesterday’s Official news, 9 NATO troops got killed in Afghanistan and so far 220+ this year. While these are offocial , unofficial would be 9 x 3 . Assuming 1 million dollars are being spent on an individual, it means 9 millions got wasted within a single day. Anyway, a good news for Muslims and bad news for Americans and liberal friends.

    @Bangash: My brave friend, there are already news emerging that this news is a hoax. I hope you’re correct ;)

  73. Adnan says:
    June 5th, 2011 10:53 am

    @Meengla: Actually it’s already happening. Both US and Talibans have one common enemy, Pakistan. Thanks for our double standards for making friends.. as well as making enemies. While US is trying to save his ass in Afghanistan and doing their best to leave Afghanistan with grace, on other hand US is letting us to fight with Afghanistan after his exit so that the “US war” which funded liberals say,”OUR war” would never end and one day all these drawing room champs would also have to face consequences. Kindly do follow news rather than following ATP and TTP :-)

  74. ShahidnUSA says:
    June 5th, 2011 2:14 pm

    Double safety lessons for Adnan.

    In case of fire

    Race: Rescue, ALARM , contain, evacuate or extinguish.

    How to operate the fire extinguisher

    Pass: Pull, AIM, squeeze and sweep.

    Hush! you pass timer, you make no sense.

  75. Bangash says:
    June 5th, 2011 3:58 pm

    Oh Ilyas Kashmiri is certainly dead, your “hoaxes” will not bring him back.

    @razia

    Your total state of denial is the problem. US left the region in 1989 as well, we didn’t see any peace or prosperity blooming. I see no reason why US leaving Afghanistan right now will improve anything.

  76. Aqil says:
    June 5th, 2011 4:27 pm

    @Bangash:

    I’m really glad you brought up the example of 1989. In fact, I was just about to write that the US and Russia both left in 1989, and instead of peace, we saw a bloody civil war in Afghanistan, and you just beat me to it!

    @Razia:

    Let’s say the US leaves. Or we somehow force it to leave and get our ego boost in the process. We proudly proclaim that we have finally exercised our sovereignty. We celebrate and make that day a national holiday. But how do you propose we prevent Afghanistan from drifting into another civil war?

    Secondly, what will we do with the Taliban, Alqaeda and the other militant groups? The US may even strike some kind of deal with the Taliban before leaving without giving two hoots about its impact on the people of Pakistan and Afghanistan, but at the end of the day the sheer brutality of their fanaticism will have to be faced by Pakistanis and Afghans, not by Americans. Sooner or later we will have to face this reality and confront these monsters, but the more we delay it by denying the problem, the worse it will get.

    You ask why people get irritated when someone talks about making the US go away. People get irritated by this because while it is very emotionally attractive to put the whole blame on an outsider, at the end of the day it only distracts us from the much deeper and real problems we have to deal with, regardless of whether the US stays or leaves.

  77. Peace says:
    June 5th, 2011 7:46 pm

    Dear Adnan

    Please refer to the below link which is from another liberal whom you prefer to call “liberal fanatic” and in this blog this liberal has provided some material which you can add to your conspiracy material. As you know “liberal fanatics” call you guys “Closet Talibans”. So your fellow closet Talibans would be happy with you in this addition. Liberal Fanatics vs Closet Talibans…….viv la Tolerance

    http://www.dawn.com/2011/06/03/freedom-from-darkness.html

  78. banjara says:
    June 5th, 2011 10:45 pm

    @razia:
    i agree with u to the extent that pakistan needs to stop being part of the gwot. this means stopping support of nato and usa in the war effort.

    however, we still need to fight the taliban and terrorists who are no friends of pakistan. this fight must be prosecuted with pakistan’s own resources.

  79. Adnan says:
    June 5th, 2011 11:51 pm

    @Bangash: When you are sure that he is dead then why are you shivering darling?

    eh, someone referred me to read Nadeem? the guy who even believed that his kids peed in pants due coz of Zia and IJT?

    Between NFP was taken care by me long time back. Below:

    bit.ly/iw0Zko

    Razia definitely liberal Ghundo me Phas gaye hay. :-)

    @Banjara: are American your friends? I think you might need to put lots of efforts to prove that.

    @Aqil: Why do you expect from Talibans or anyone in Afghanistan to kiss you every day when you are involved in killing their people? Its quite a crap. Offcourse Afghanis will retaliate and would retaliate hard against those who take dollars from US and kill others. For such people we use the term “Kiraye K phatoo”.

    To my drawing room analysts like Aqil and Bangash, regardless of improvement, US has to save its own ass, the unemployment rate over there is increasing, their soldiers are being killing like rats every day. Just today BBC released official figure which is 9. Unlike corrupt zardari Obama is answerable to his Awam and he has to answer them about their tax money which is being wasted in a war which is futile.

    So if you think you could beg them and ask them to say in Afghanistan then it would not work. They don’t need you. They need their nation.

  80. Meengla says:
    June 6th, 2011 5:50 am

    @Banjara,
    Yes.
    Pakistan needs to clean up the mess inside Pakistan before too long. And I don’ t think that can happen unless Pakistani state is seen to be American allies.
    I’d say let Americans leave this region and put extreme level of immigration checks from Pakistan and Afghanistan directly and indirectly. In my opinion the GWOT is basically an ‘intelligence driven’ operation. At any rate, the planning for 9/11 and its execution happened in Europe and USA–the foot soldiers were all Arabs.
    After the Americans leave the region in the above mentioned immigration scenario then Pakistan should (and most probably will) clean up the various jihadi and militant infrastructure inside. Then the Pakistani state will NOT be seen as an ‘American stooge’.

    ***PS. ATP can use a dedicated, fixed topic about making peace with India as the priority. If that means making the Line of Control in Kashmir as the International Border–after safeguarding various mutual interests–then so be it. There can’t be peace in and around Pakistan without making peace with India. In my understanding once we have peace with India then the rest will fall in place. ***

  81. Irfan says:
    June 6th, 2011 8:24 am

    Another defining moment for Pakistan.
    But how many defining moments can a country have?

  82. razia says:
    June 6th, 2011 10:11 am

    thanks to those who responded to my question. i have just driven for 16 hrs straight from east coast to mid west. i see you all have been quite busy here. i’ll read your comments carefully tomorrow and respond accordingly.

  83. banjara says:
    June 7th, 2011 8:33 am

    @adnan: from my perspective no one who promotes terrorism in pakistan is a friend of pakistan. now if pakistanis believe that americans r committing terrorism in pakistan, then they should be dealt with just like any other terrorists.

    does that answer ur question?

  84. Nihari says:
    June 7th, 2011 6:58 pm

    A warning to the enemies of Pakistan

    http://pkpolitics.com/2011/06/06/end-of-times/

  85. Asim says:
    June 7th, 2011 9:44 pm

    I am not a fan of anything that has the name ‘Bhutto’ in it, but this speech at Sydney Writer Festival by Fatima Bhutto is amazing and so close to the reality:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQabTXHFfRc

  86. Asim says:
    June 7th, 2011 10:26 pm

    Nihari….really? that is the best Pakistanis can do to scare their enemies? LOL

    Anyone can come up with these and even more horrifying images of the end!

  87. razia says:
    June 7th, 2011 11:56 pm

    let me make it clear that i am no fan of taliban or the pak army. in fact i am troubled by pak soldiers being used in bahrain and yemen to suppress the uprising. i am against pak aligning with saudi arabia.

    banjara, you have already answered your question/objection. i know pakistan can deal with taliban, terrorists or extremists. i believe, general public will rise up against them provided there are no americans, or nato troops in pakistan or afghanistan. the terrorist will have no reason to cause trouble.

  88. razia says:
    June 8th, 2011 12:25 am

    bangash, i don’t knw what ‘total state of denial’ you are talking about. all i want is the us and nato war macinery out of the region.

    your claim about afghanistan is not totally correct either. it is true, the version of islam they practiced was atrocious, but after the taliban took control there was at least peace. how they got there is another matter.

    i am keeping my messages short on purpose. :)

  89. Adnan says:
    June 8th, 2011 1:16 am

    The article cited by Nihari just reflects about the secular extremism which I often discuss. if Nihari and his generation thinks that mocking the religion could give them victory then they should spare some time to read about their forefathers like Nimrod,Pharoarh and Abu Jahal who also used to mock religion and then the world saw their “end of times”. Good show! May you and author get more closer to your friends.

  90. Adnan says:
    June 8th, 2011 1:22 am

    thenews.com.pk/NewsDetail.aspx?ID=16661

    @Bangash: Bhai abhi Zarda na Pakwao abhi tumhara Uncle Sam ne comfirmation nahi di hay!

  91. Majeed says:
    June 8th, 2011 2:48 am

    Ejaz Haider: An open letter to General Pasha
    http://tribune.com.pk/story/184106/an-open-letter-to-general-pasha/

  92. razia says:
    June 8th, 2011 6:42 am

    excellent open letter by Ejaz Haider and speech by fatima bhutto. thank you for sharing.

    please check out the following links, why i believe the way i do.

    http://tiny.cc/xefalseflag

    more: http://tiny.cc/madsen

    http://tiny.cc/doesnotexist

    http://tiny.cc/mxhm3

    http://www.crescent-online.net/columns/2–guest-editorial–abu-dharr/3100-no-he-is-not-an-american-agent.html

  93. Meengla says:
    June 8th, 2011 6:56 am

    @Razia,
    Agree with you: So long as the Pakistani security agencies seem to be doing ‘America’s work’ there will not be peace in Pakistan. Let the Americans leave the region so that Pakistan can go after these fanatics on its own. This is very much Pakistan’s own war but it can’t be won without distancing from the Americans.

    Also, you are correct that the Talibans had ensured peace in Afghanistan. Perhaps peace of a graveyard but it was still better than the massive blood-letting done by the various ‘Mujahideen’ factions once the Soviets left Afghanistan. Not to forget the Talibans had almost eliminated the poppy production inside Afghanistan. Talibans need to kick out the Al Qaida terrorists who have brought nothing but misery to the region. Then Afghanistan can go back to the days of the warlords and the Talibans evolving at their own glacial pace…

  94. Bangash says:
    June 8th, 2011 9:44 am

    @razia

    Actually you are wrong in claiming the Taliban brought peace to Afghanistan, they never did. The Taliban conquered 90% of Afghanistan and were still fighting the Tajik/Hazaras. Their conquest proved shortlived as the Taliban’s foolish policies including hosting Osama Bin Laden resulted in 9/11 and the global response to Afghanistan. A few years of Taliban oppression is not what I call “peace”.

    Your claim that US leaving the region will result in terrorists having no reasons for violence is debunked by the terrorists themselves, who said even if the US left the region, they will continue their war until Pakistan is conquered by them. By the way there was 20 years of war in Afghanistan before the US came after 9/11, so the US presence was never the reason for the terrorism we see today.

    You can remain in your state of denial.

  95. Adnan says:
    June 8th, 2011 11:56 am

    Actually 3 years back I wrote by citing references which negate the lame propaganda bought by brain washed liberal kids about women treatment in Afghanistan. Have a look:

    kadnan.com/blog/2006/10/20/taliban-or-not-taliban/

    Also, I would consider a woman like Yvonne Ridley more credible than some cyber kid having Niswar and commenting on forums, who became Muslim even after getting “Abducted” by Talibans. Her book ,”In the hands of Taliban” tells every thing in detail which negates the propaganda being done by Americans and their local phatto.

  96. razia says:
    June 8th, 2011 6:44 pm

    there are 800 us military bases around the world. the us does not invade a country deal with a created ‘situation’ and leave. it is unlikely that it is going to change its policy in south asia. however, miracles can and do happen.

    in the event the us and nato troops were to withdraw from afghanistan, civil war is a possibility but there an answer for that: get all the neighboring and some neutral islamic countries involved as peace keepers and negotiators. the details of involvement can be worked out with mutual consultations. this is not my idea, i have heard many people talk about it.

  97. Adnan says:
    June 8th, 2011 9:16 pm

    In a recent statement, Iran’s Ahmedin Nijad warned that USA is gonna take away Pakistani nukes. I experience a grave silence by Shia millitants liberals on this statement. So far none of them put Iranian President in the slot of Ghairat Brigade yet. Why? because Iranian President is a Shia? A Mutta-ist or something else? Why Radical Shia Regime of Pakistan does not blame IRanian President and label him a terrorist. I smell hypocrisy here.

  98. banjara says:
    June 9th, 2011 12:11 am

    @bangash: the militants may not stop their terrorism even if america leaves; that is their problem. the need for pakistan to stop being part of gwot is not to solve the problems of the militants but, rather, to overcome its own hurdles in waging war against extremism. the reality is that the public opinion in pakistan will not solidly mobilize behind an all out war against militancy as long as pakistani govt. and its security establishment remains a stooge of usa. if people like you want the overwhelming majority of pakistan to stand with you in the battle against these terrorists, and one hopes that you do, then it is you who need to get your head out of the sand and learn to stand first on your own two feet.

    in the meantime, you are certainly entitled to your own myopic opinions, but not to lecture others or to be the judge and jury about who is in denial. thanks for your understanding …

  99. Adnan says:
    June 9th, 2011 12:50 am

    @banjara: +1

  100. Nihari says:
    June 9th, 2011 1:03 am

    Somebody mentioned Yvonne Ridley….Here is a review of another great novel…in fact it also mentions Yvonne Ridley…

    http://www.chowk.com/Arts/Books/A-Tale-of-Traitors-of-Faith

  101. Adnan says:
    June 9th, 2011 1:50 am

    @Nihari: Is it about How Women were “treated” in Khomeni Era or is it about Mutta Ritual practiced in Iran,Pakistan and else where among a community?

  102. Bangash says:
    June 9th, 2011 1:50 am

    @Banjara
    Your anti-Americanism overrides all your senses and attracts you to the shortcut proposed by the right wing in Pakistan: “If America leaves, all problems are solved”. This shortcut is actually a dead-end.

    With regards to public opinion in Pakistan, that is not as massively linked to America as you suggest. I come from Khyber Pakhtunkhwa, where we have seen the true face of militants and their evil, and the people have even formed Lashkars to fight the militants. Unfortunately the Lashkars have not been supported by the govt’s inconsistent policies, and the military is itself incompetent in dealing with militancy.

    So you can remain in denial of the real problems and feverishly wait for US to leave the region in 2014, but the result will the same as when the US left the region in 1989.

    Oh and read the Taliban’s own declaration that they want to capture Pakistan, if that doesn’t convince the “people of Pakistan”, then nothing will.

  103. razia says:
    June 9th, 2011 3:22 am

    it is not a question of anti or pro any body. it is a question of right or wrong. it was wrong of the us to invade iraq, afghanistan, pakistan, … the list of us aggression is long.

    no doubt, pakistan has a special place in my heart but as an american citizen i have a duty and a responsibility to speak out against its policies of naked aggression against countries and people who have done nothing wrong. the us is an evil empire and i am appalled at my tax dollars being used to kill, maim innocent people. i will not keep quiet.

  104. razia says:
    June 9th, 2011 3:25 am

    the us is the only developed country that has no national health care system. the education, the health benefits for the deserving and the social programs are being cut so that war machinery keeps going and the war profiteers keep getting richer and the poor keep getting poorer.

    democracy is an illusion, the corporations run the country for profit. it is as simple as that. the us does not care for human rights at home or abroad. it is a killing machine! it only knows how to destroy – iraq, afghanistan, libya, …

    i suspect most of you are young brash and know all the facts. let me tell you, you don’t, no one does. if you care about pakistan, as i think most of you do, stop sniping, snapping, taunting,.. each other and look for ways to save pakistan from foreign as well as domestic enemies.

  105. banjara says:
    June 9th, 2011 3:39 am

    @bangash: i am sorry i couldn’t make it clear to you what use i have for your opinions and where you could park them. we have altogether different battles to fight; mine is against all terrorism that is attacking pakistan. people like me will never stand side by side with people like you, no matter how much name calling you do.

    as for the taliban threat to take over all of pakistan, all i have to say is “just let those barbarians try. they’ll find out soon enough how much of a cakewalk it is”.

    i have nothing further to say to you or to your ilk.

  106. Bangash says:
    June 9th, 2011 9:46 am

    @banjara

    Well the barbarians are trying their best to takeover Pakistan, through kidnapping, violence and all types of criminal activity, but of course you more concerned with “america this” and “america that”. The daily crimes happening against Pakistanis are not enough for you to condemn the Taliban and support action against them.

    People like you can continue with their anti-American obsession, its of no use to Pakistan.

  107. Qasim says:
    June 9th, 2011 10:37 am

    Another journalist killed. What are we becoming.

  108. razia says:
    June 10th, 2011 12:31 am

    search the effects of depleted uranium on new borns in iraq and gaza. you think effect on pakistanis for generations to come will be any different? http://tiny.cc/chemicalbombs.

    i realized you have to be a member to read the wayne madsen report – the link i gave in another post. i’ll copy from ‘pakistan cyber force’ and paste of the report here in my next post. here is a part of it.

    New York [SANA (South Asian News Agency) News] American investigative journalist Wayne Madesen has revealed that Black Water is involved in activities of sheer terrorism in Pakistan and was given a clean chit to freely operate in Pakistan in M(B)usharraf’s presidency era. Wayne Madesen told in the detailed report that Tehreek-e-Taliban Pakistan has been deployed by the USZ Department of State and operates under direct guidelines issued by the Pentagon.

  109. razia says:
    June 10th, 2011 12:33 am

    the rest of wmr:

    It’s leader Hakeem-ullah Mehsood and Wali-ur-Rehman were deployed in place of Osama Bin Laden and Ayman Al-Zawahiri to wage the so called “Jehad” hoax against the western countries. The detailed report clearly showed that Black Water is carrying out well directed terrorist activities in Karachi, Peshawar, Islamabad and other major cities of Pakistan under the orders of CIA, whose blame is later on put on Pakistan.

    American Journalist Wayne Madesen
    Most of Quetta’s major terrorist attacks were carried out by Black Water. Similarly The New York Time Square terrorist activity was also blamed upon Pakistan through Tehreek-e-Taliban Pakistan. Report pointed out that the only purpose of Tehreek-e-Taliban Pakistan is to take all Black Water terrorist activites’ blames upon itself to facilitate the American propaganda machines manipulate it for conspiring against Pakistan. Wayne Madesen said that M(B)usharraf completely authorized Black Water during his time to do whatever they wanted in Pakistan. Report adds that the investigation team is receiving constant threats and assassination warnings from F.B.I and the C.I.A.

  110. Nihari says:
    June 10th, 2011 1:33 am

    @razia
    so it is pak army and gen musharraf who is reponsible to let kala pani run amok in pakland.

    by the way coming back to Saleem Shahzad our very own choi sab refused to take su mi to mo action against the killers of the brave journalist however he was quick enough to take the su mi to mo action against Atiqa Odho after bottles of wine were found in her baggage…Ooye Choi sabbbbbbbb…bachi ko janay do…penay walay choi sab ko duayen dein gay….woh kisi ko goli nahin maartay…banday bano yaar. agar dar lagta hai tu ek chuski tum bhi laga lo.

  111. Aqil says:
    June 10th, 2011 2:19 am

    @Razia:

    The idea of a neutral peace keeping force is not a bad one, though neighbouring countries or any other country with a stake in Afghanistan (such as the US, India, Saudi Arabia, Russia) should be kept out of it because they will have a conflict of interest.

    That said, setting aside wishful thinking, is there any solid reason to assume the Taliban would be willing to give up violance and accept the Afghan constitution only if the American/Nato forces are replaced by some neutral Muslim countries?

    Bhandara may be right in the sense that as long as the US is present, many Pakistanis will continue to label it as An American war instead of recognizing the fact that we need to mobilize against militancy for our own interest. However, the problem is that it becomes a self-fulfilling professy; when instead of confronting these militants, we spend all our energy arguing that it’s America’s war and that no progress can be made unless the US leaves because we will not fully oppose these monsters before the Americans are out of here. It basically means that if the US does not leave for another decade, we will let the militants play havoc with our country for another 10 years because somehow we hate the Americans more than we love our country. If our media, military and politicians with screwed up sympathies for Taliban had not been confusing the public by hiding behind this logic, perhaps we would not have been in such a state of paralysis.

  112. Bangash says:
    June 10th, 2011 2:31 am

    Good points Aqil. I believe those are are currently claiming that US presence in the region is the cause of terrorism, will shift to some other foreign actor when the US leaves. They will then claim that Indian presence in Kashmir is the cause of terrorism in Pakistan or the Israeli occupation of Palestine. We will have to wait 100 years or more before we can act against terrorists who brainwash Pakistani children to become bombers and conduct press conferences on Pakistani soil.

  113. Meengla says:
    June 10th, 2011 3:07 am

    I don’t think at least I believe that if the US forces leave the region then the Talibans will lay down the arms at once.
    But I do believe that so long as the Pakistani military and govt. continues to be seen as doing ‘America’s work’ there will NOT be peace.
    I have my reasons to believe in that position.
    One very clear example:
    In the spring of 2009 the Pakistani military launched an offensive inside Swat after a video of a woman’s flogging by the Talibans inside Swat surfaced. That galvanized the Pakistani nation and they gave full unconditional support to the military on that campaign. The military officials felt really proud of that national support. Even the news media went fully behind the military. The result was one of the most successful campaigns so far.
    In all that ‘America’ was largely absent.
    The same principle needs to apply elsewhere. But it is not. Whether call it the failure of the current democratic govt. or of the ‘think tanks’ or of the media or of the bloggers like us we don’t have a national consensus–and there can’t be one–unless we clearly identify–just like what happened in Swat in 2009–that it is Pakistan’s own war. But that consensus is not developing largely because there are enough voices who say that the war is America’s war. America needs to be out of this equation.

    In my opinion the GWOT was always a war of covert operations, intelligence sharing, immigration-checks, and police action. That’s where it needs to go to. Not some 140,000 troops to occupy tribal societies.

    However, IF there is even half-a-truth in the various ‘conspiracy theories’ that the real intention of America is not to go after the terrorists (anymore) and that the real intentions are about some new ‘Great Game’ in the region then…we really need a paradigm shift. Even for us ‘liberals’. Going from that point of view will give a much much complex narrative.

    I am now open to either sides of the debate.

  114. banjara says:
    June 10th, 2011 6:53 am

    @aqil: so the solution to being in the “state of paralysis” is to indefinitely remain in the “state of paralysis” by maintaining the conditions that keep us there? that is really quite brilliant. plus, isn’t it disingenuous to suggest that more energy, and precious time, is being wasted in arguing for dissociating from gwot (by people like me) than is being spent on harping (by people like bangash and yourself) that our alliance with the americans has nothing to do with the rampant terrorism in pakistan?

    your say that the militant’s battle has nothing to do with american presence and that they will continue to fight and terrorize the people of pakistan even after the americans leave.granted; they won’t. first of all you have to understand that people like me are not “asking americans to leave”. they are welcome stay in the region as long as they like on their own, continue to spend hundreds of billions each year fighting these dumb wars, and go bankrupt the process.
    all that i am asking is for the “pakistani establishment to get out of gwot” so this “state of paralysis” that we have in not confronting terrorism with full force is brought to an end once and for all. then it is between the terrorists and the people of pakistan; and i have absolutely no doubt about who will prevail.

    but perhaps you and bangash have no such faith. in your view, we must not waste our time and energy in thinking of ways to fight our battles by ourselves.we must never aspire to solving our problems with our own feeble hands. nay, we must remain beggars, perennially dependent on americans or chinese or saudis or whoever else, to solve all our financial, technological, and security problems.

    i feel ashamed to be a part of such an imbecile nation.

  115. Bangash says:
    June 10th, 2011 7:30 am

    well “get out of WoT” isn’t really an option as terrorists have their bases, HQ’s and suicide training squads in Pakistan, and are targeting and killing Pakistanis every week.

    The first suicide attack in Pakistan was in 1995 on Egyptian embassy in Islamabad, it was planned by Ayman Zawahiri, yet that same Zawahiri has been hiding in Pakistan for last 10 years, alongwith his buddy Osama. The weakness of the Pakistani state, coupled with the foolish “strategic depth” policies of the ISI, has brought Pakistan to this ruin.

  116. razia says:
    June 10th, 2011 9:32 am

    of course there will be conflict of interest for the neighboring countries that is why additional countries, which do not have territorial interest should be included for conflict resolution.

    the ‘taliban’ are angry at the pakistani establishment because of their collusion with the us. and they get their arms from the nato, there have been several documenaries eg. frontline attesting that fact. in the absence of both these reasons taliban will not be able to fight and they will not have tacit public support. besides, why can’t they be a party to the negotiations??

  117. Aqil says:
    June 11th, 2011 9:51 am

    @Razia:

    There we go again in your last paragraph. You say that the Taliban are angry because of our colusion with the US and they should be included in the talks. To paraphraze, they are not that unreasonable if only we (and the US) were to just talk to them. That is exactly the kind of denial that has paralysed us so much and in fact also created this monster in the first place.

    Of course there should always be an offer of talks, but it should be on the basis of some principles, not mere wishful thinking that they are reasonable people despite their overwhelming past record to the contrary. If the Taliban agree to completely disassociate themselves from Alqaeda, promise not to host and protect any militants working against any country, renounce violance, work within an Afghan constitution and show at least some moderation on human rights issues including women rights and religious/sectarian minorities, then I am all for talking to them even if it means openly opposing the US. But without these minimum conditions, wishes can’t be horses.

  118. Aqil says:
    June 11th, 2011 9:59 am

    @banjara:

    We can get emotional about fighting our battle ourselves and “feel ashamed to be a part of such an imbecile nation,” but the fact remains that we are in this mess precisely because we have not been willing to do the needful to deal with our problems on our own. If we have decided that we won’t do the needful to confront terrorism untill our govt and military disassociate with the Americans, then it’s a self-created paralysis, and we only have ourselves to blame for it because we do have the choice to not do so.

    Also, the US wasn’t here between 1989 and 2001 but we were still happily nurchuring the Taliban and all the other militant groups even though Taliban were providing training camps to Pakistani sectarian groups like Lashkar-e-jhangvi and making inroads into FATA and we would have happily continued to feed this cancer and remained in denial even if the US had not come. I hope your sense of national pride about our ability to maturely deal with our problems was equally hurt when our state and society were pursuing this ‘brilliant’ course of action before the Americans came in 2001.

  119. Aqil says:
    June 11th, 2011 10:31 am

    @Meengla:

    You do have a point. Given that we are the way we are, it seems unlikely that we will have a national concensus unless the Americans leave. But the question is, what if they don’t leave soon? What’s our plan B? Surely it shouldn’t be to remain in a state of paralysis unless the US and Nato troops go away.

    I agree with the example of Swat. However, while it represents a success on one hand, it was also a failure to take timely action. Saner voices used to warn us that the extremists are taking over but we kept on dismissing it as American propaganda; then we deluded ourselves by thinking that a peace deal with the TTP would solve the problem because we thought they weren’t such bad people after all. In the end, we still had to fight them, but due to the delay, the situation had deteriorated so much that a major operation became necessary. I hope we don’t repeat the same exercise of delaying action to the such a point every time.

  120. Adnan says:
    June 11th, 2011 11:33 am


    In all that ‘America’ was largely absent.

    You are wrong,Meengla. America was STILL there but indirectly. The fake video which produced by the head of Western funded NGO later proved wrong after months when everything had went wrong. It’s all over in news that how that ill-fated lady gave money to create entire scene. So let’s not fool out yourself that America was not there. Also let’s not fool out yourself that Pakistanis support that operation. How can you claim that Pakistanis support that operation? Did you ask each Pakistani or you are just using media reports? Even if someone assumes that you are right then why same Army is being condemned despite of they are doing operation against same people? I think you guys should realize that US has been there since beginning. US has already used traitors one way or other to inject their agenda. So be it Samar MinAllah, or PPP ,ATP or TTP. They all are proxies of US presence in Pakistan. Pakistanis know it well.

  121. Adnan says:
    June 11th, 2011 11:37 am


    continue to spend hundreds of billions each year fighting these dumb wars, and go bankrupt the process.

    Reading somewhere that it was Osama’s wish to bring US in region and destroy because that was the only way to screw up US. Now every day hundreds of people are getting unemployed and China is getting stronger and stronger, the future of US is quite dark. America has no choice other than bowing infront of US and beg them for safe exit otherwise daily they have been facing severe damage in Afghanistan; both physically and financially.

  122. Bangash says:
    June 12th, 2011 4:00 am

    Multiple blasts today in Peshawar killed 34, but such incidents are not enough to convince those living in complete denial of the causes of terrorism in Pakistan. Instead if “America leaves the region” then there will no more blasts in markets in Peshawar/Nowshera. As if world was that simple.

  123. Aqil says:
    June 14th, 2011 11:48 pm

    The problem with the “if America leaves, there won’t be any terrorism” myth is clearly highlighted by the recent bombings in Peshawar or the attack on a bank in Islamabad. Even if we accept that attacks on the military and the police are due to the perception that the security forces are helping the US, how do you account for these attacks on ordinary citizens going about their business in banks, bazaars or other such places? Such attacks clearly show that the real agenda of these monsters is to impose a Taliban like system on us instead of just the ouster of the US, except that it is easier to live in denial and keep our heads in the sand.

  124. razia says:
    June 15th, 2011 12:48 pm

    the presence of americans complicates the situations and facilitates these monsters’ activities by providing them with resurces – money and arms, ammunition. americans by their own admission pay them in exchange for safety.

  125. Bangash says:
    June 15th, 2011 10:41 pm

    Americans have never said they “pay” the Taliban and there is no evidence that Americans support the Taliban. An internet webpage with a conspiracy theorist claiming as such is not “evidence”.

    There is however plenty of evidence that Americans attack and kill Taliban/Alqaeda and their associates, whether in Afghanistan or in Pakistan. That evidence has been on display for last 10 years.

  126. razia says:
    June 16th, 2011 3:16 am
  127. razia says:
    June 16th, 2011 3:17 am
  128. razia says:
    June 17th, 2011 10:21 am
  129. Bangash says:
    June 17th, 2011 10:44 am

    Russia Today is a propaganda channel, and the other video you put is some guy making up stuff by himself. The opium trade existed in Afghanistan long before the US came.

  130. razia says:
    June 17th, 2011 8:34 pm
  131. razia says:
    June 17th, 2011 8:38 pm
  132. razia says:
    June 17th, 2011 8:50 pm
  133. Bangash says:
    June 17th, 2011 9:30 pm

    How about you search Youtube for press conferences in which Pakistani Taliban proudly acknowledge suicide bomb attacks in Pakistan and say that even if America leaves, the Taliban will continue their violence ?

  134. Rafiq says:
    June 19th, 2011 8:19 pm

    It is odd how some events galvanize people and some do not. this one did. i think his death has shaken the nation into action and in that sense it is not raigaan

  135. razia says:
    June 23rd, 2011 5:06 am

    An estimated one-third of the supplies bound for U.S. and NATO troops in Afghanistan travel by land from Pakistan’s port city of Karachi. Pakistani intelligence officials said that, in many cases, the drivers moving the NATO containers are working with the Pakistani Taliban, which torches the containers after seizing the loaded goods.
    http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2011/06/22-9

  136. Aqil says:
    June 23rd, 2011 6:40 pm

    @Razia:

    None of the links you have been posting prove anything. It’s not even clear what point you are trying to prove. But regardless, the bottom line is that Pakistan is suffering from this cancer of militancy and extremism and will have to deal with it whether the US stays or leaves. We can try to deny the problem by focusing on the US and as a result keep ourselves in a state of paralysis untill the Americans withdraw. Or we can recognize the cancer and start the treatment. The wiser course of action is to start the treatment asap, even if it’s painful, because the more we delay it, the worse it will get, and then the eventually remedy would be even more painful.

  137. razia says:
    June 24th, 2011 1:31 am

    ya rab na wo samjhe hain na samjhenge meri baat
    de aur dil unko jo na de mujh ko zaban aur

  138. Bangash says:
    June 25th, 2011 2:30 am

    so razia did you search on the Internet for Taliban statements in which they happily acknowledge terrorism in pakistan and say they will continue until they capture the country ?

    These statements can be found on youtube as well alongwith the poetry you are reciting.

  139. razia says:
    June 25th, 2011 8:22 am

    statements don’t mean a thing.

    may be one day you and people like you will see the light as i have.

  140. Bangash says:
    June 26th, 2011 1:08 am

    So the video of the Taliban proudly claiming that they conducted terrorism mean nothing to you ? That means you cannot face the truth.

    maybe one day you will develop the courage to see the truth, rather than just blaming America for everything while yourself living in America.

  141. razia says:
    June 28th, 2011 11:47 am

    whatever

  142. Bangash says:
    June 29th, 2011 2:12 am

    Facts will not change by “whatever”. Keep living in denial.

  143. razia says:
    June 29th, 2011 6:21 am
  144. Junaid says:
    June 29th, 2011 7:10 pm

    There is very negetive role that is plyed Pakistani media it seems that it has taken role of courts. It has been blaming ISI and Pak Forces for every thing which is very unfortunate. there may be a possibility that CIA may have killed Saleem Shahzad to blame ISI and Pak Army. big part of media is getting dollars and has personal grudge against Pak army and especially against ISI and also against people of pakistan. Big part of media is afraid of MQM CIA Mosad. few days back CIA agents were caught red handed in Peshawar. they have taken the shape of Taliban. There is no writ of state in rural parts of sindh, Karachi and in balochistan and in chanabnagar. Every day 10 to 15 people are giving there lives in Karachi. Media is silent over this issue and there are some anchor persons who indirectly supports visious drone attacks. however whole Pakistani nation is against drone attacks and american influence

  145. Asif says:
    July 8th, 2011 11:15 pm

    @Junaid. I totally agree to you, really our media has really been playing an extremely negative role in recent days. All anchor persons have been talking against ISI and army on air as if they have already got all evidence . I ask them if they have the evidence then next logcal step is just to register FIR, because they already have all eveidence.
    I wonder who will speak on these channels to defend army stance?

    http://ihaveadream-pakistan.blogspot.com/2011/07/imran-khan-only-choice.html

  146. December 2nd, 2011 3:26 pm

    A sad incident and recently another journalist (in Gujrat area) has a painful story put before media….

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