‘Operation Silence’ Against Lal Masjid Islamabad

Posted on July 3, 2007
Filed Under >Adil Najam, Law & Justice, Politics, Religion
Total Views: 120283


Adil Najam

UPDATE: Reports in the Pakistan media suggest that the Lal Masjid leader has finally been arrested while trying to escape wearing a burqa. According to a BBC update:

The leader of a radical mosque besieged by Pakistani security forces in Islamabad has been caught trying to escape wearing a woman’s burqa. Security forces seized Abdul Aziz as he tried to leave the Red Mosque amid a crowd of women… He was wearing a burqa that also covered his eyes,” a security official told the AFP news agency about the cleric’s escape bid. “Our men spotted his unusual demeanour. The rest of the girls looked like girls, but he was taller and had a pot belly.

ORIGINAL POST: Things are moving fast and the showdown at Lal Masjid, Islamabad that began this morning is now ready to turn into an even more real battle. The day took the lives of at least 10 people, possibly more. These included policemen, soldiers, by-standers, a journalist, and a number of Madrassah students. (For details see our earlier post and update comments on it, here).

The latest – and this keeps changing by the minute – is that in a mid-night press conference the government has given an ultimatum to the management of the Lal Masjid (Red Mosque) to surrender. There is no indication that they will. In the past things have always ended with ‘negotiated settlements.’ This time the likelihood of this happening is much less. A curfew has been imposed in the area. Tanks have been called in. So have special forces.

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Metroblog Islamabad is doing a wonderful job of keeping abreast with breaking news. It reports, through Dawn TV, that 111 Brigade (Army) from Rawalpindi has already assembled around the mosque. Ambulances have been fully stocked. Hospitals are on alert. An ultimatum for time has been given (3.30 PST… NOW!). The entire area has been cordoned off.

Here is a news clip from ARYOne, broadcast earlier.

In an article written last week for The News, I had argued that inaction was not a solution and because of so many delays and policies of apeasement some confrontation was now becoming inevitable.

This episode [i.e., the Chinese massage parlor case] will further embolden the already violence-prone brigands at the two madressahs and we are likely to see an escalation in their demands as well as their tactics. Meanwhile, the government has once again demonstrated an inability and/or unwillingness to act decisively. The much-cherished ‘writ of the state’ continues to rot in tatters.

This, it seems, is what happened when earlier the Lal Masjid management incited this escalation in response to the government’s build-up of force around the mosque. In that article, I had gone on to argue that:

Just like standing still in the middle of the road at the sight of the blinding lights of a truck speeding towards it does not save the life of the stunned deer, doing nothing about this escalating crisis out of fear that doing anything will only make things worse is not going to help the government, or Pakistan. Something needs to be done, and done fast.

I had called in the article for the government to “act to judiciously dismantle militancy at Lal Masjid.” This situation has to be responded to. But the key word remains “act judiciously.” What is really important is how that action is taken. Further bloodshed should be avoided. At least minimized. One hopes that any action is intelligent action and all steps are taken to minimize loss of life. Not just because one does not wish to create needless ‘martyrs.’ Much more so because all life – and everyone’s life – is precious.

The technologies to undertake low casualty offensives are available. The will and sagacity to do so is needed. The test for the government – acting with force in the very center of the Federal Capital – is not only what it does, but how it does it.

Photo credit: Associated Press, B.K. Bangash.

359 Comments on “‘Operation Silence’ Against Lal Masjid Islamabad”

  1. July 3rd, 2007 6:38 pm

    im in tears…

  2. AYAZ KHAN says:
    July 3rd, 2007 6:50 pm

    It had to happen. There was no way out. The writ of the Government must be established. Anarchy by a group of people cannot be allowed to continue. Lets pray for minimum loss of life. Ameen

  3. Asma says:
    July 3rd, 2007 6:51 pm

    Not Tanks, but as Army Personnel Carriers (Troop carriers) – corrected by the Army Spokesman.

  4. Mustafa says:
    July 3rd, 2007 7:12 pm

    Very unfortunate but right step to take. There is no place for such people in our society.

  5. July 3rd, 2007 7:23 pm


    First, kudos to the folks at Metroblog Islamabad for very timely updates.

    Comments there suggest that the Maulana in the Lal Masjid is ready to give up arms. He seems to be negotiating via Geo TV and Shahid Masood. Can anyone please confirm with more details.

    I sincerely hope this is so and we are spared bloodshed. Hoepfully through a real ‘giving up of arms’ and denounciation of violence and not just as a way to maintain status quo.


    It seems that what was reported was an interview with teh Maulana by Shahid Masood where the interviewer suggested that they give up arms and the Maulana replied that they woudl be ready to IF….. and so on. So, it seems this is more spin from the Masjid than anything for the moment. But, I continue to hope that they will listen to Shahid Masood on this one!

  6. Saad says:
    July 3rd, 2007 7:25 pm

    Man on loud speaker. Curfew has been enforced by the Pakistan Army and Rangers. They’re telling kids and ladies to get out through the other side. Operation is about to kick start.

  7. July 3rd, 2007 7:31 pm

    Government seems to be too determined in its actions…

  8. July 3rd, 2007 7:35 pm

    Adil sahab, your article in The News is the best one I read all day, and I read many today, thumbs up!

  9. Mustafa says:
    July 3rd, 2007 7:35 pm

    Government waited the whole night for these fanatics to give up their arms. What else would you like them to do?

  10. July 3rd, 2007 7:36 pm

    I hope this ‘Topi Drama’ has a rating of 13, no bloodshed wanted…

  11. Kruman says:
    July 3rd, 2007 7:43 pm

    My dear naive friends, nothing is going to happen.

    Not today atleast. Expect something more on the weekend when the APC is in progress.

    There will be a stalemate of sorts, which suits the general. He needs these goons for the APC and around July 15th when the SC verdict comes out.

    Also expect more propaganda af increasing Talibanisation. Mush needs to play this card in case he decides to impose martial law. It is all a game scripted by agencies using the mullas to help a militarty government in trouble.

  12. mazhar butt says:
    July 3rd, 2007 7:45 pm

    This operation falsifies the very concept that Pakistan was made ”in the name of Pakistan”. With so many versions of Islamic interpretations bubbling in the minds of people how could we expect anyone to be right? If the Lal mosque fellows are on the wrong who else, then, is on the right ? The Government, NO ! It’s least bothered about Islamic teachings and tenets of Quran. It will allow you to set up a brewery, a den incognito but never a mosque or a madressah ! Many governments have come and gone and all of them bloated about ‘Islam’ but practically they didnt do anything or if they did anything it was only under public pressure or to prolong their Raj !
    May God help us all

  13. Saad says:
    July 3rd, 2007 7:47 pm

    Operation has been suspended, Rasheed Ghazi has agreed to surrender arms in front of Maulanas.

  14. Ajnabee says:
    July 3rd, 2007 7:58 pm

    mazhar butt, are you the only one worried about Islamic teachings and tenets of Quran? If not then calm down. Your unnecessary fatwas aren’t helping anything.

  15. July 3rd, 2007 8:07 pm


    Although I agree with you that Government aint a bit interested in serving the ‘Islamic’ aspect of Pakistan, but I think that under the context of this issue, Lal Masjid started it and went way overboard, if I see a brewery forcing me to drink alcohol ill oppose them the same, infact, even more.

    Lal Masjid aint doing no good to nobody except the jackboot.

  16. Aqil Sajjad says:
    July 3rd, 2007 8:23 pm

    I think the government strategy would be to keep the lal masjid surrounded and keep on shelling it so that they are exhausted to the point of surrendering. If this is indeed the case, we won’t be seeing a major offensive, not in the next few hours at least. The standoff could even continue for a few days before coming to a conclusion.

  17. faraz says:
    July 3rd, 2007 8:26 pm

    I think most important thing is to remove their human shield. There are 2 thousand girls inside these campuses.

    without water and electricity they can be forced to let womens leave. After that they should be given quick deadline and opeartion should be conducted with “armor” vehicles and gunships.

  18. July 3rd, 2007 8:29 pm

    this may not be so simple.

    The girls are wearing burka, and are ready to become suicide bombers if the masjid is attacked.

    how would one know whether they are coming out to surrender or take everyone for a ride?

  19. Saif says:
    July 3rd, 2007 8:31 pm

    Mazhar Butt Sahib, we are sick of these sermons. Please spare us. And we already have more mosques and madrassas (mostly built illegally on encroached land) than we need.

  20. Viqar Minai says:
    July 3rd, 2007 8:46 pm

    Regrettably, this was probably the right thing to do; the fact remains that something should have been done a lot earlier when the situation could have been more peaceably brought under control.

    The “Lal Masjid” had become “masjid-e-zarrar”. No Islamic teaching at anytime, the time of the Prophet(SAW) no less, has ever justified a state within a state. Many Islamic scholars of note had remonstrated with the belligerent clerics and had failed to dissuade them from this dangerous path.

    One can only hope and pray that there is minimum violence and loss of life. Sadly, in Pakistan, there is excessive tendency by all and sundry to overplay their hand; and this includes the government.

    It is difficult to say whether the crisis was deliberately allowed to build up to his point by the government.

    My fear is that this government has been prone to unmitigated disasters for sometime, and they may yet snatch ignominy from jaws of considered restraint in this instance as well.

    It also remains to be seen how this action, and its aftermath, plays out with the opposition. They had been very critical, and justifiably so, when nothing was being done. They were joined in this quandary by many cool headed segments of the civil society. Now that something is finally being done, will they still find ways to negatively politicize it, and blame the government? Of course, the government could, and should, have taken the opposition into confidence before mounting this action.

    Let us all pray and hope for the best.

  21. minhas muhammad says:
    July 3rd, 2007 8:59 pm

    One hopes bloodshed can be avoided. But, we can never say how this will unfold. We may have no bloodshed, some bloodshed, moderate amount of bloodshed or more bloodshed. In any case, one hopes none of this comes to pass. But, again I may be wrong. After all, this standoff has been going on for 6 months. Who am I to predict what will happen? In any case Shahid Masood is trying his best and let us wish him well. Will he succeed? Hard to say. But then again, we have succeeded in such situations before. But, then again, what do I know. The running commentary is phenomenal like a cricket match. When will the next wicket fall? Only time will tell.

  22. Rehan says:
    July 3rd, 2007 9:04 pm

    The Lal Masjid are the enemy of the state… You are either with Pakistan or your against it..

  23. MB says:
    July 3rd, 2007 9:39 pm

    I totally disagree that PAKISTAN was made in the name of ISLAM. All these people who have hijacked religion and are now trying to hijack our country too are the ones who opposed PAKISTAN, are the ones who opposed SIR SYED, IQBAL, QUAID.

    They are parasites who try to take over every piece of land just because their retard interpretation of ISLAM be followed.

    I strongly suggest removing the false slogan ” Pakistan ka matlab kia . . . . LLIL ”

    There was nothing like that when our hero’s like Sir Syed, Iqbal & Quaid worked hard to give us a separate land.

    Its only after 1947 that these people (along with ARMY) tried to inject their own versions into a purely equal-for-all state. First they hit the minorities, then Qadiyani’s, then threw us into the hell of AFGHAN war & poped up terrorist madarassahs everywhere & now want to take over just ever next building in Universe. And ARMY provided full support into this to create their own state within state, officially known as ISI.

    Its high time we remove the world ISLAMIC from our republic which would be the first thing QUAID would do today. There is no issue of ISLAM when we have 97% MUSLIMs. Were MUSLIMS before 1977 were all immoral that we tried to convert this into an ISLAMic state.

    Islam or prostitution or whatever these retards shout about is way down the list in problems our nation is facing.

    I doubt if Mush wants to end this. Its a drama that he created, directed and is executing well & is helping him divert attention.

  24. thanos says:
    July 3rd, 2007 9:39 pm

    People, there is bandwidth to pay for and earlier I ran into a cpu overload error message so the site is getting hit heavy. Please while visiting check a few of those ads to help Adil pay the overhead. (Adil would never say that himself, so I will.) :)

  25. zakoota says:
    July 3rd, 2007 10:05 pm

    This is very sad, there should have been more efforts for negotiations

  26. thanos says:
    July 3rd, 2007 10:07 pm

    Over at metroblogging it looks like negotiating is going on… Wafaq Madaris involved from comments section. Did that stop?

  27. Saif says:
    July 3rd, 2007 11:13 pm

    Now that blood has been shed, the least the government can do is to bring the two Ghazi brothers to justice. If not, this blood will be on PM and Shortcut’s hands. Any “muzakirats” that require any thing less would not acceptable.

  28. jk says:
    July 3rd, 2007 11:56 pm

    Zakoota > The Lal Masjid and Jamia Hafsa people did not hold any negotiations with the ~8 people who died because of them.

    The place should be raided and then razed. Nothing good can come out of letting such people run amok in our cities.

  29. Mikail says:
    July 4th, 2007 12:25 am

    While the loss of life is regrettable, the military operation is absolutely necessary.

    Mazhar: In your post you noted “If the Lal mosque fellows are on the wrong who else, then, is on the right ?”. By using the word “if”, you seem to doubt that the Lal Masjid mullahs are in the wrong.

    Well, considering the fact that

    a) Lal Masjid is constructed illegaly and on land grabbed from the state, hence (as the council of islamic ideology noted), any prayers offered there don’t count.

    b) They have illegally occupied a children’s library.

    c) On the guise of enforcing morality, have kidnapped and held hostage pakitani and foreign citizens.

    d) And on the occasion that there demands for Islamic Shariah were not met, they have threatened suicide bombings.

    It’s hard to question (as you appear to do so) that they are clearly in wrong.

    Hopefully the government can end this mess once and for all.

  30. Me bhi Pakistan Hoon tu Bhi Pakistan hai says:
    July 4th, 2007 12:30 am

    For how long has mankind killed in the name of “I am right you are wrong

  31. Jahanzeb says:
    July 4th, 2007 12:38 am

    i support govt to take action against lal mosque coz i think these two mullahs r behind this crices. They bring people in the madrasa and brain wash them and fill their minds with so much dirt against their own people…
    its was time for the muslims to be united and stand against the west but mullah like lal masjid r opening jihad against their own troops. Its just an attemt to get fame over night and now is the time in my openion that govt should not step back.

  32. SJH says:
    July 4th, 2007 12:40 am

    Can someone help me reconcile a contradiction I see before me. On the one hand religious leadership have a tremendous amount of contribution to make in society, but on the other hand I read about religious leaders in this case openly calling for the killing of innocents and for the creation of strife. How can this be explained to one’s children?

  33. MB says:
    July 4th, 2007 12:58 am

    Thats because the ones who are intellectuals, who understand religion from historical perspective & are willing to show that ISLAM is about peace & love are throwing behind & the ones who are incompetent & fake, self appointed gatekeepers of the religion have been funded, encouraged by society, military & politicians ever since 70′s for good or bad reasons.

    So the end result is a HIJACK. A religious hijack. In which the true face of ISLAM has disappeared & we only see few terrorist trying to act like holy guardians with their own interpreted way of ISLAM.

    Its a commutative SIN that we are facing due to our own sins.

    As for children. If you want to benefit from this dilemma here is how you can:-

    Before your own children get brainwashed in a madressah by similar fanatics its better to show them the real designs behind before they grow up and its too late. Explain them that in order to be not to be hijacked they should develop a true understanding of ISLAM which believes in living with a difference & not just preaching and converting whole world onto your faith.

  34. Shehzad Ahmed Mir says:
    July 4th, 2007 1:41 am

    The government is waiting to give the misguided zealots of the LAL MASJID to surrender peacefully and to the least have the women and children evacuated. Slow progress being made and some of the women have given up. However, I am afraid that this ideal opportunity is not lost by some hot-headed religious zealot who comes out guns blazing ready to take out the government forces and sacrifice his life for a stupid cause. This will indeed be sad as then all hell will tend to break loose! Lets still hope that this could be resolved peacefully without any additional deaths of the innocent

  35. July 4th, 2007 1:54 am


    According to The News:

    Curfew has been clamped in G-6 area of the federal capital and shoot at sight orders have been issued after decision of operation against the people entrenched in Jamia Hafsa. Pak army contingents were reached Islamabad to assist police and Rangers. According to recent reports, Mian Aslam Bodla, a member of National Assembly from Muttahida Majalis Amal has been detained under maintenance of public order.

    Security men have cordoned off the area surrounding Lal Masjid and laid barbed wire around it. The government officials said that those who surrender would be dealt with softly. Lal Masjid Naib Khateeb Maualana Abdur Rasheed Ghazi talking to Geo News said he is ready to layoff arms provided the president gives him guarantee. He said the Lal Masjid management is prepared to hold talks, but it should be preceded by assurance for cessation of firing and withdrawal of rangers from their positions in Lal Masjid area.

    ISPR Spokesman Maj Gen Arshad Waeed said Wednesday the operation against Lal Masjid will be carried out by police and Rangers personnel with Pak army on standby to assist the civil administration. He said that no tanks were called in the federal capital; there are only armoured vehicles for movement of the troops, he added. Interior Secretary Syed Kamal Shah on his return from India has said that the administration has kept all options open to meet the Lal Masjid situation.

    In a separate update The News reports that the death toll has now gone up to 16.

    In its update, Dawn reports that the government has now given a new deadline of 11AM PST for militants at teh Lal Masjid to surrender.

  36. Tahir says:
    July 4th, 2007 1:55 am

    How many more innocent people will die just for the sake of trying to legitimise Mr. Musharraf’s inherently illegitimate rule? This whole affair seems orchestrated by ISI to distract people’s attention away from the political imbroglio related to the CJP’s suspension. And of course Musharraf doesn’t want to leave any stone unturned in his mission to convince Uncle Sam of the false choice that, its either Musharraf or the mullahs.

    If the governement really wanted to counter the Lal Masjid thugs, it would have completely sealed the outer parameter of this ‘masjid’ and its related ‘jamias’, preventing anyone from entering or leaving. This would have put an immediate end to the occasional moral policing raids into the rest of Islamabad, that these vigilantes make. With their water, food and electricity cut off, most of these thugs (not students) would have come out one by one. The rest could have been left to fast inside. Such an approach would have broken up the ranks of these criminals without creating any martyrs and thus handing them any propaganda material, as has been done today.

    But of course Musharraf doesn’t want to shut down the Lal Masjid thugs, he wants to cunningly and recklessly use them to secure his own political position, and if doing so severly hurts Pakistan’s interest and image, that’s just too bad.

  37. Viqar Minai says:
    July 4th, 2007 2:22 am

    As I had suspected, the opposition has wasted little time in blaming the government for the operation against Lal Masjid. There is no shortage of jokers on either side of the political divide in the land of the pure.

    Between the politician and (seemingly) most of the civil society, I don’t know who is totally out to lunch? Hopefully we will find out by the time all this is over.

    My guess at the moment is endlessly sequence of sliding dead lines, and equally endless rhetoric from both sides …

  38. TURAB says:
    July 4th, 2007 2:36 am

    Its about time…., that leader of lal masjid has put the lives of innocent brain washed children before himself……

  39. Ayjay says:
    July 4th, 2007 3:35 am

    Bomb the “thugs”, Use “gunships”, Kill them all,…
    Are these the ideas coming from Educated circles.
    Comments on this forum seem to be more hardline and fundamentalist than the Islamists.
    This seems like the American and NATO Agenda for the Taliban, without uderstanding that they are people from the country. They make them seem like another species.
    if it were a small group of people then it would have been a different story.
    Don’t forget that they are people of your country with different opinions than yours. The reasons for the different opinions need to be understood rather than subduing them with force. Otherwise, the situation in Afghanistan is an example.

  40. menu/exit says:
    July 4th, 2007 4:07 am


    YIf they cardoned off the area as you “evisioned” it would have deprived a lot of other students (males and females) of their basic needs who are not involved in this whole affair. They are simply poor kids studying at a madrasa.

  41. Kruman says:
    July 4th, 2007 4:14 am

    Tahir, Viqar,
    I agree with your diagnosis. Like you guys I also believe that the Lal maseet standoff is a smokescreen to con people in the west and in Pakistan. Great Jackboot must be patting his agencies on the back for such a spectacle. Steven Spielberg couldn’t have done better.

    The climax of this situation is nigh, now that the APC conference is happening this weekend and the CJP verdict is due next week.

    Read more on synopsis at:

    I have only one thing to say about generals and opportunistic mullas:
    Nang-e deen, nang-e millat, nang-e watan

  42. July 4th, 2007 4:15 am

    I totally disagree that PAKISTAN was made in the name of ISLAM

    MB, your ‘raag’ about why Pakistan was established is pretty old and basless and I usually read this on forum several times by so called educated brigade. Why Pakistan was established is in history so don’t “inform” us why was it taken. However I would like to know what your MIGHTY WISDOM teaches you about reason of Pakistan’s establishment.

    Anyway, Ansar abbasi yet again with his analysis.


    Very much balanced. If a guy like ansar says that there are brothels and clubs in ISB then we need more people who can oppose such filth which is always appreciated by liberals. But offcourse not LAL MASJID way. Those who appreciate operation are pretty ignorant and never came out of their drawing rooms.
    If operation was solution for evertything then bush would have succeeded long. It woudl be wrong to expect some POSITIVE result from such actions while the ground reality is different:


  43. Kruman says:
    July 4th, 2007 4:48 am

    Operation Lal Masjid – A Grand Success

    Read the whole article at:

    Let me know if my suggestion for rewarding the intelligence men does not commensurate with their contribution to our national security.

  44. Kruman says:
    July 4th, 2007 5:28 am

    This is in response to MB’s post (July 3rd, 9:39pm).

    MB your vision of Islam is too convoluted. The message of Islam is to find peace within yourself and then to spread that solace and peace to the rest of mankind. This ac of finding inner peace is the true jihad. I highly recommend reading Bawa Muhaiyadeen’s Book , Islam and World Peace:

    “To understand this and to establish peace, man must first change the thoughts and qualities within himself. He must change his qualities of selfishness and avarice, his desire for praise, and his love for earth, sensual pleasures, and gold. He must stop thinking, “My family! My wife! My children! I must rule the world! I must advance my position in life!” When a man has all these selfish ideas, how can he possibly create peace for others? However, if he severs these qualities from himself and begins to feel the hunger, the pain, and the difficulties felt by others, and if he treats all lives as his own life, then he will find peace. If he can strive for this understanding and obtain inner patience, contentment, and trust in God, 1 if he can imbibe God’s qualities and acquire God’s state, then he will know peace. And once he finds that clarity within himself, he will discover peace in every life. If everyone would do this, life in this world would be heaven on earth. But if those who live in this world and rule this world cannot find serenity within themselves, they will only end up destroying the world when they try to establish peace. We must think about this.”

    Moderators, sorry for the digression. This topic deserves a separate blog of it’s own. But nevertheless, it is pertinent as it shows the true face of Islam (vs the rabid mulla version) by one who understood the true message of Islam.

  45. Sourav says:
    July 4th, 2007 5:50 am

    This incident reminds me of Operation Blue Star conducted by the Indian army in the Golden Temple. A lot of people lost their lives, religious ideals were hurt, the PM was assassinated. Religious propaganda can sometimes take a radical twist, and young students especially tend to fall prey – the Taliban being an extreme example.

    Hope the situation resolves soon.

  46. Ajnabee says:
    July 4th, 2007 6:09 am

    [quote]I totally disagree that PAKISTAN was made in the name of ISLAM

    MB, your ‘raag’ about why Pakistan was established is pretty old and basless and I usually read this on forum several times by so called educated brigade. Why Pakistan was established is in history so don’t “inform

  47. Aqil Sajjad says:
    July 4th, 2007 6:13 am

    While the lal masjid story is very serious, I am worried that this has taken the floods totally in the background. This means that we are more worried about our lal masjid issue (as important as it is) than the human suffering of the people of Sindh and Baluchistan.

  48. July 4th, 2007 6:20 am

    Not today atleast. Expect something more on the weekend when the APC is in progress.

    your analysis makes sense after reading this news. tinyurl.com/2mftv7

    akhir dictator ko USA ko bhe jawab deyna hay na :-)

    its interestnig how long will he use “lal masjid” card to keep himself in power. What if this card doesn’t work, what would be the next?

  49. Aqil Sajjad says:
    July 4th, 2007 6:20 am

    latest on Aaj TV: the surrender point established outside lal masjid is being cleared and the police is telling the journalists to leave the area because firing is about to start. A few students are still coming out to surrender and are being taken by the authorities.

    Cases of terrorism, murder and destroying public property have been registered against the two brothers.

  50. July 4th, 2007 6:22 am

    @aqil,Unfortunately bus true. As many said,its all about diverting attention from main crisis like CJ and Blochistan flood.

  51. July 4th, 2007 6:36 am

    Its reported on aaj tv n geo that Maulana abdul aziz has left the premises of lal masjid. i wonder if his security is more important to him than that of minor kids n ladies in madrassa. earlier they always said their student will conduct suicide attacks. y students n y not they n their family??

    their actions r revealing their intents.

  52. Asma says:
    July 4th, 2007 6:39 am
  53. Kruman says:
    July 4th, 2007 6:39 am

    How do you italicize?

    As for your question how long the general “puss in boots” will keep hoodwinking people, my guess is as good as anyone else’s.

  54. Ajnabee says:
    July 4th, 2007 6:50 am

    [quote]akhir dictator ko USA ko bhe jawab deyna hay na

    You are talking about the same dictator who your Mullahs supported with 17th amendment while all other political parties were opposing it?

  55. Adil Mulki says:
    July 4th, 2007 6:56 am

    All the world’s a stage – Shakespare ;)

  56. Salma khan says:
    July 4th, 2007 7:00 am

    A perfect stage drama by Govt.

  57. jk says:
    July 4th, 2007 8:53 am

    Is there any actual evidence that this is “stage drama”?

    I have no doubt that there have been many incidents that have been stage dramas in the past but what proof is there to label this incident as such?

  58. Aqil Sajjad says:
    July 4th, 2007 9:26 am

    Latest on geo: 4 military helicopters are flying near the lal masjid and the exchange of firing is also getting intense. The helicopters have not fired anything yet, but they are probably fully armed. There has been very heavy shelling.
    Another news: Fazl-ur-Rehman spoke to one of the two brothers and asked him to surrender, but he refused, saying that he would prefer shahadat.

    Couple of comments:
    I’m not sure why the electricity of G-6 continued to be stopped during the day. They should probably also have allowed an hour or so of relaxation for the general public in the sector so that they can at least get their basic requirements such as food etc.

    Having said that, overall, I think the government is handling the situation well by trying to minimize the casualties. It shows that our authorities can deal with a difficult situation with maturity, it’s just that our leaders choose not to make use of their senses.

  59. Wajahat says:
    July 4th, 2007 9:41 am

    Live coverage on aaj tv.


  60. Aqil Sajjad says:
    July 4th, 2007 9:46 am

    One last warning has been given with 7 pm the final deadline (17 minutes left), and the govt is saying that there won’t be another extention after that.
    With the heavy firing going on, the helicopters in the air and armed vehicles ready to go, the signs are that there is going to be a major operation pretty soon.

    Most political figures have gone in the background. Fazl-ur-Rehman is an exception, he tried to get the lal masjid maulana to surrender but the latter refused, so the attempts to negotiate a peaceful end have come to a deadend.

    There is talk that the govt might use some nerve gas in the operation so that loss of life can be minimized. It is believed that the lal masjid ppl do have some gas masks though.

    There is also a bomb disposal squad ready near the lal masjid as a precautionary measure.

  61. Peacenik says:
    July 4th, 2007 10:09 am

    I hope that now the wheels have been set in motion, the Govt does not flinch when the going gets tough.
    BTW, what is this crap about surrendering to the ulema??? Do we now have yet another parallel judiciary?
    Agree with all those above who said that Pakistan was made for Muslims, not for Islam…subtle difference my dear Watson i.e.Adnan Siddiqui.

  62. MQ says:
    July 4th, 2007 10:21 am

    This drama will soon come to en end. Lal Masjid cannot fight the state power, Ghazi’s claims of putting up resistance notwithstanding. In fact, this action should have been taken long time ago when the Lal Masjid students had taken over the children’s library. Perhaps the loss of lives that has already occurred could have been avoided.

    But the question is:

    Will the Ghazi brothers be brought to justice for their crimes? Will the illegal encroachment of Jamia Hafsa and Jamia Faridia be vacated?

    If not, then very soon we will have another standoff, if not in Lal masjid, somewhere else.

  63. Umar says:
    July 4th, 2007 10:37 am

    Right… very thought-provoking article here, contrasting Pakistan today with Wiemar Germany…


    It is with a very heavy heart that I’m forced to say that support for not only these brothers but other rightwing elements in Pakistan is now too large to take for granted… we continue to harp on the theme of how the silent majority is moderate/non-violent/whatever, but in doing so, we often end up ignoring how deep the tentacles of these fundos have sunk into our society… we have not seen one protest against these people… we have not heard one politician speak out against them… next time you’re outside, on the streets or in the nearest market, try counting the number of people with beards… of course not everyone with a beard can automatically be classified as a fundo, but unless the beard is short, that is the assumption one would have to make… now try to recall if there were this many bearded people ten years ago or twenty years ago…

  64. Aqil Sajjad says:
    July 4th, 2007 11:15 am

    Latest: Maulana Aziz arrested. The coward was trying to escape in a burqa as part of a group of women who were surrendering but the security ppl became suspicious and got him.

  65. Saad says:
    July 4th, 2007 11:15 am

    Maulana Abdul Aziz (elder bro of Maulana Ghazi) arrested while trying to flee wearing a Burqa :D. He was trying to run away in a group of girls and when rangers tried to search them, girls raised a ruckus, upon which women police officers were asked to search them. This resulted in the arrest of Maulana Sahib :D

  66. MQ says:
    July 4th, 2007 11:25 am

    Aqil, I am glad you broke this news. If you look at the track record of the mullahs in Pakistan, this is how they run eventually, with their tails tucked between their legs or inside women’s burqas, their bravado and chest thumping notwithstanding.

  67. AUK says:
    July 4th, 2007 11:30 am

    Yes, all the claims of martyrdom and sacrifice are laid to rest. Abdul Aziz coundn’t come up with a better scheme to save his skin. And he was willing to sacrifice the lives of thousands of young kids. Good riddance. I heard that the other brother escaped in an ambulance. Anyone knows what happened to him.

  68. Saad says:
    July 4th, 2007 11:32 am

    And this is the hardcore maulana, the one who was the more strict of the two brothers. His sister said in the morning that Maulanas are ready to ‘die’ and will not ever do such a thing. This guy was asking people/students to die for the message that he was spreading and he himself opted to run away in a group of girls :)

  69. Umar says:
    July 4th, 2007 11:43 am

    This burqa thing is terrific… now we can all have a field day teasing every maulvi we meet… I can’t wait!

    This burqa thing almost makes the past six months worth their while… :)

  70. Ajnabee says:
    July 4th, 2007 11:48 am

    I have said this before, Mullahs are by and large hypocrites (not to mention cowards) and so are their supporters. Except for a few dumb ones who are too simple and follow these Mullahs blindly.

  71. Naseem says:
    July 4th, 2007 11:49 am

    Assalamau Laikum all,

    What the Aziz brothers are doing wrong is to achieve sharia through violence. However to have sharia in Pakistan is right.

    This mistake will cost us dearly…and is a mistake made by our founding father Jinna. He was British educated…he could see that the time for a homeland was there, but not being brought up as a devout muslim, he missed out on this important framework.

    He talked about democracy and secularism for Pakistan…what poppycock! Pakistan was made for Islam based on religious grounds…to put Allah SWT and Prophet Muhammed SAW central onto every tenent of our lives.

    Why should we be ashamed of what we are born into? Isn’t that hypocritical…we are muslims for Allah’s SWT sake…and that includes devout support of sharia.

    These peoples in the Lal Masjid will now pay (possibly by the bloodshed of thousands) with their lives for the mistake of Jinnah.

    This makes me so sad, the government have shown little interest in talking to mulana Aziz about the possible and gentle introduction of sharia over several years.

    The government must take some of the blame….I shall pray to Allah t’allah for the least possible violence…I want to see none of it….but equally I will pray to Allah SWT to show peoples in power the light of Islam to gently introduce sharia to Pakistan….we need it.

    July 4th, 2007 11:49 am

    This mullah-military hide and seek must end now. The nation is awake and will not allow itself to be exploited by any ‘messiah’.

    This struggle for independence of the judiciary is, for the first time in our chequered history, for the sake of principle of rule of law. We are united and ready to fight for it.

  73. July 4th, 2007 11:51 am

    One brother has been nabbed in the burqa…Cant understand when media is clearly showing the fate of all volunteers then why this smart chap was trying to move in this way?

    May be to negotiate with the masters and ask them why the whole drama is not as per original script… :)

  74. July 4th, 2007 12:05 pm

    “Very well done Mr. Rahsid and Mr. Aziz, Welcome to the air-conditioned guest-house, you will stay here under “house arrest” for the next few weeks until we develop something where the masses could be hurded – this is part of your reward.

    At the cost of “only” 20-odd innocnets, your duo has achieved a lot:

    1. You have diverted the attention of the whole nation from the government’s exposure in front of the Supreme Court

    2. You have diverted the whole nation away from the Chief Minister Sindh’s unconditional apology in front of the High Court

    3. You have forced the media away from the CJ case, from raising “stupid” slogans for rule of law, from government’s blunders

    4. You have made the London APC called by opposition fairly difficult to meanouvre

    Well, of the 20-odd deaths; there is always a collateral damage; we may need something of this sort every other month until we achieve our goals regarding national interest, you know!

    Great job you two!”

  75. Aqil Sajjad says:
    July 4th, 2007 12:10 pm

    The wife of Maulana Aziz has also been arrested while trying to flee as part of the same group of burqa clad women. :)

    Hamid Mir, in his typical style, was having fun about the burqa escape and the fact that the maulana was leaving the other students behind while trying to save his own skin. :)
    The MMA guy in the program was in clear pain. :)

    Worth posting on youtube if someone has the clip.

  76. MQ says:
    July 4th, 2007 12:11 pm

    Another news that has gone unnoticed (I don’t remember where I saw it), is that the deputy minister of religious affairs —- the guy who seemed to belong more to showbiz than to religion — has resigned. It will be interesting to know why.

  77. Saad says:
    July 4th, 2007 12:13 pm

    Maulana in Burqa :|

  78. MB says:
    July 4th, 2007 12:32 pm

    Utter shame and humiliation. Those who preach others of martyrdom then brainwash innocent minds for their evil designs and when time comes escape in such a way.

    He better die or suicide than being caught like this. Only AAJ TV is showing the video of him being caught.

    What a laughing stock MUSLIMS would be around the world who never get tire of bashing out their bravery & historical references.

  79. July 4th, 2007 12:50 pm

    BBC has an interesting quote on how security personel were able to identify Maulana Abdul Aziz inside a burqa:

    The leader of a radical mosque besieged by Pakistani security forces in Islamabad has been caught trying to escape wearing a woman’s burqa. Security forces seized Abdul Aziz as he tried to leave the Red Mosque amid a crowd of women… He was wearing a burqa that also covered his eyes,

  80. mazhar butt says:
    July 4th, 2007 12:56 pm


    I didn’t know you will get startled with my aversions. I am not a Mullah and have given no Fatwa. Think for yourself.Don’t be a ‘stranger’ to your self. That’s what I am trying to say.


    The fate of the guys at Lal mosque is not difficult to foretell. They tried but failed as they had to. Islam is not restricted to Lal mosque , it’s everywhere. The point is how you take it,,,,,at its face value or otherwise. I have seen that neo-muslims are much more Mussalman than us, muslims by birth. The only explanation for that is that the neo-muslims had studied Islam bettter than us before converting to it.

  81. baber says:
    July 4th, 2007 1:02 pm

    I was expecting one of our religious brethren to come forward and quote a hadith or quran on this event to justify the mulana’s escape. But since no one did so I will quote one, the Holy Prophet (SAW) with all respect said.
    “It is brave not to die some times” (correct me if I am wrong )
    Some of us might not be very religious but were very englightened in our early years.

  82. Akbar A. says:
    July 4th, 2007 1:10 pm

    I find the bandwagon claiming that this is all a set up and a drama to be rather funny. There is no evidence for this and concocting fanciful speculation on timing etc. is easy, but childish. The military gains very little from this but what it was losing from letting this continue was too much. Having messed up so many things in so many directions let us count blessings that at least one very serious problem has been tackled. I do not think this is teh end of things because teh problem is now rooted in society as comments show here. What is intersting is how different types of people are supporting the ‘staged drama’ theory. Many are those who actually support the Lal Masjid brothers and are using the drama theory to distract attention away from the crimes of these Masjid people. Others are so single-mindedly focussed on a one-person (Musharraf) and one-issue (CJ) agenda that they seem willing to even ignore the grave threat that this Lal Masjid affair poses to Pakistan. Many seem to do so just becasue we are a cynical people. Finally, some like the drama theory because they are so disgruntled with the regime that there is comfort in such conspiracy theories. All this is interesting but I am at least glad that a government that is illegal (because it is military) and is making one mistake after the other has finally at least done something right for whatever reasons. This was a step that needed to be taken and I am glad that they have done this carefully and taken steps to minimize bloodshed. Lets give them credit when deserved.

  83. Phil says:
    July 4th, 2007 1:21 pm

    Dr. Adil, thanks for mentioning us in your post, and citing our information too :D Thanks a lot ?

    Pakistaniat Zindabad,
    Pakistan Zindabad!

  84. PAKISTANI says:
    July 4th, 2007 1:27 pm

    I just wanted to say thank you to the ATP team and to all the people commenting and updating here. Made one feel like being part of a community of like-minded (sometimes) people. IT is good to talk on these serious issues as and amongst Pakistanis rather than to have to go to foreign sites like those of CNN or BBC or other media to find out what is happening in ones own country. This discussion has such a Pakistani feel to it. Thank you for creating this forum

  85. July 4th, 2007 1:34 pm

    Inside Story, Al Jazeera English is airing the topic live right now.

  86. king_faisal says:
    July 4th, 2007 1:43 pm

    i am glad government held its fire. the worst outcome would have been if the brothers went down in a blaze of glory – if instead of watching scenes of the great escape in burqa, we had witnessed scenes of a heroic standoff in which the brothers died while taking a bullet for their cause. imagine how many more future fanatic jihadis such pictures would have created? instead what we have witnessed today will have the opposite impact of that wished by jihadi supporters. today the awam has seen firsthand the hypocrisy of jihadis. hopefully after today awam will not hold in blind reverence, anyone with a beard. today has been a great day for pakistan because faith of awam in jehadis has been shaken.

  87. MQ says:
    July 4th, 2007 1:45 pm

    It’s good that the administration has finally confronted the problem.

    They could have and should have done the same 6 months ago when the Lal Masjid duo had started this farce. But instead of confronting the buffoons then, the government sent the Shuj of Guj and the Son of Merde-Momin to negotiate with them, thus further emboldening them and giving them ample time to collect weapons inside the mosque. So much so that at one time senior officials of the Islamabad administration went to see the two brothers in the mosque and literally “touched their knees” to beg them to release the people they had kidnapped. Is this how you are supposed to deal with kidnappers?

    Now that the farce is soon to end, the government, to prevent re-enactment of such dramas in future, should ensure that:

    1.The two brothers are put through the wringer of justice just like any other terrorist and kidnapper.

    2. The encroachments by Hafsa and Faridia are vacated, and

    3. All madrassas in Islamabad are shifted from the residential areas to the sector meant for educational schools and colleges. The CDA does not allow any residential school or college in Islamabad. Only day-schools are allowed. Then why this special concession to the madrassas?

    Those who try to bring religion into this should understand that this whole thing is not about religion. It is about crime. It is about taking the law into one’s own hand.

  88. Kruman says:
    July 4th, 2007 1:53 pm

    I have to give credit where due. The government has handled this well.

    Iqbal was right is saying: Mulla fi sabeelillah fasad

  89. pindiwalla says:
    July 4th, 2007 2:05 pm

    Mush & Team should set up an immediate de-brainwashing school for these lucky-not-be-dead Talibans and Talibats — lest they end up becoming nuisances elsewhere

  90. July 4th, 2007 2:17 pm

    one extremist group down, one in motion online…

    Its totally wrong to generalize all jihadis as lal masjiders. After all, out of 20,000 madrassas , this was one of them, and for 6 months allowed to mischief in the capital.

    Secondly, other religious groups condemned them, so its really a fanatic move to go on tease people with beards, or mocking every other person in support of religious organizations.

    Thirdly, its far better that they are captured without blowing themselves up, otherwise it would have encouraged others to do so. But I think, the surrender of students is justified according to their statements who claimed that they will commit suicide bombing ONLY if attacked, since the army was very generous at giving them the opportunity to return to their families, they complied. There is no double standard being played here by the students.

    This means that either the students were pressurized by the lal masjid authorities before, or the authorities thought its better not to waste the lives of others and be worse criminals than what they are already by telling the students to surrender. The former is most likely because some statements by students are coming now regarding the pressurizing situation like “its not easy to walk out of lal masjid…”

    The burqa episode besides being hilarious is also thought provoking, why did the elder brother had to wear the burqa, we all know he is a shy guy, does not appear on tv, but this is way too hilarious.

    Just dont generalize the case here, otherwise find yourself in the same catagory of people as lal masjiders…

  91. July 4th, 2007 2:18 pm

    @mazhar butt,

    i think the comment u directed to me was meant for somebody else….

  92. July 4th, 2007 2:24 pm

    [quote]3. All madrassas in Islamabad are shifted from the residential areas to the sector meant for educational schools and colleges. The CDA does not allow any residential school or college in Islamabad. Only day-schools are allowed. Then why this special concession to the madrassas?[/quote]

    MQ, I think its because schools are businesses whereas madrassas are free and governemtn doesnot provide them any facilities.

  93. Hamza says:
    July 4th, 2007 2:39 pm

    In the wake of the Lal Masjid firestorm, two other attacks by Islamic militants have gone unnoticed.

    According to the Dawn Breaking News page.

    MIRANSHAH, Pakistan, July 4 (AFP) A suicide car bomber attacked a Pakistani military convoy in a troubled tribal region bordering Afghanistan Wednesday, killing 11 people including six soldiers, security officials said. The bomber rammed his explosives-laden vehicle into the convoy near a checkpost at Mir Ali, a town in North Waziristan region, two officials in the area said.“The suicide bomber was blown to pieces and his car was totally destroyed,

  94. Hamza says:
    July 4th, 2007 2:41 pm

    And another in Swat.

    Also, posted on the Dawn Latest News Section.

    Five killed in attacks linked to Lal Masjid siege PESHAWAR, Pakistan, July 4 (AFP) – A policeman and four civilians were killed on Wednesday by a bomb blast targeting a police vehicle in the normally peaceful northwestern region of Swat, local police officer Saeed Khan told AFP. A district police chief and his driver were also wounded in the blast, Khan said, adding that it was not clear whether a grenade was thrown at the vehicle or whether a roadside bomb went off. Earlier a rocket was fired into a police station, killing a constable and injuring two others, officials said. The blast followed calls on a private FM radio station in the area to launching “jihad

  95. Asma says:
    July 4th, 2007 3:00 pm

    Lal masjid Saga almost ends with Maulana Abdul Aziz’s funny escapade. Maulana Abdul Rasheed Ghazi is ready to surrender too.

  96. July 4th, 2007 3:07 pm

    Eventually the drama is about to end:

    Other Topi is ready to surrender after sacrificing 20 people!!!!(may be more)

    Where is the motivation and lectures which they were relaying to masses? intersting situation…

    It is well clear that it is a staged drama however, final episode may be different or opposite to wht have been told to these brothers by script writters.

  97. Bhindigosht says:
    July 4th, 2007 3:22 pm

    Oh ho…..now the Shuj of Guj has stepped in…..now the Govt will lay a “hola haath” on the criminal mullahs. We all know where the sympathies of shuj of guj and co lie.

  98. AUK says:
    July 4th, 2007 3:46 pm

    This is getting a little funny, or atleast what I am hearing from Geo. Now the other brother is “willing to negotiate”, “willing to surrender in front of Ulema”, “willing to end the occupation of the library”. What is this crap? The game has come to an end. The only reason Abdul Aziz is not in a cell already is because there are still people inside, and they want to end it without more bloodshed. However that does not mean that Abdul Rashid has any choices left. He along with the other brother have already exhausted their options. Let’s just get it over with and get atleast the capital back to normalcy.
    I do have to say something about the students in the madrassah. They are no Taliban, so please stop labeling them, and stop sounding like Bush. These are poor kids from underprivileged backgrounds, and they can easily go back to their families. While we keep throwing labels so easily, we need to look at what we as a society and as a country are doing for these kids who are born with no hope and with no future. We don’t provide them with healthcare, and we don’t provide them with basic education. What have we as a country done to provide universal education to our children. Unless we resolve these basic problems, this nuisance is not going to go away.

  99. July 4th, 2007 3:58 pm

    very well said AUK, finally someone moderate.

    no offense to others though :)

  100. Adnan Siddiqi says:
    July 4th, 2007 4:06 pm

    Is govt going to file case against student of Becon House students as well who took part in last raid?

    It would be pretty immature thinking that lal masjid drama is ended. I alredy qouted today’s jang news clip about how people in sawat reacted. Hamza also quoted few news. So just keep finger crossed. I hope we don’t experience more bloodshed.

    @Atif: even if students were pressurized by lal managment, it’s great to know that students were not harmed by any party and they were free to leave premises.

    I am still trying to figure out why lal masjid case got popular much? is it because:

    - their danda type action against something which THEY dislike


    -their action against places like brothers,clubs,private places,parlours which are being promoted in name of “Enlightment and moderation”? As Ansar Abbasi’s report states that people of area are/were disturbed due to such enlightment by liberals but police as usual were unable to take actions. Mind you, ansar abbasi has yet proved himself a pretty balanced guy and tried his best to give balanced reporting. Some “jiyala” might call him a “mullah” due to his beared. :-)

    IMO, the second point matters most. Why? it has already been discussed a lot here. Otherwise illegal property,Danda action and other things are “topi drama”. how could we talk about legal in a city like Islamabad which itself is not a legal city? something i don’t understand at all.

    I hope someone would continue to follow “Intentions” of lal managment without lifting any danda in hand or by force. that’s necessary otherwise those who are chanting right now against such “raids” could suffer themselves one day in presence of such brothels etc. I mean only some sick person would like to see a brothel in his area.

    I didn’t hear much about flood relief today due to this whole drama. I hope there is good news for those poor chaps.

  101. July 4th, 2007 4:09 pm

    Hey hold on a second isn’t wearing womens clothing against Islam – oh mullahs please enlighten?

    “Our men spotted his unusual demeanour. The rest of the girls looked like girls, but he was taller and had a pot belly.“

  102. Adnan Siddiqi says:
    July 4th, 2007 4:19 pm

    Ajnabee, yes my friend same dictator who is now worshipped by desi leftists.

    I wonder what would be the next order given by right wing guys in US to a left wing leader musharraf.

    I hope our president would think about starting an operation against NATO as well who always challenged “WRIT OF THE GOVERNMENT” and implemented their danda bardar shariat in northeren areas.

    Hamaray liberals ko mullah k darhee se bahar anay he ki fursat nai milti k unhey pata chalay k Darhee k uspar kia horaha hay.

  103. Aamir Ali says:
    July 4th, 2007 4:28 pm

    I commend the govt/security forces for confronting the Lal Masjid fanatics. So far it has gone well. Mullahgardee is taking a beating in Pakistan.

    Some people say fighting the Afghan war during the 80′s was a mistake. Though I am sympathetic to that view, I think its made with the hindsight of 25 years. For a Pakistani in 1980, teaming up with Afghans/Americans against Soviets in Afghanistan would have made a lot of geo-political/security sense.

    Regarding the violence in Swat, that is the TNSM beards who have earlier declared support for LM. I expect a few other fireworks across Pakistan for a few weeks, after that it will die down. Confronting Lal Masjid is still worth it.

  104. Reluctant Expatriate says:
    July 4th, 2007 4:31 pm

    The burqa clad Mulla leader provided more ammunition to the West. The governments in the Europe, Canada, Australia, and USA have the perfect reason burqas in the West.

  105. MQ says:
    July 4th, 2007 4:34 pm

    [quote]It would be pretty immature thinking that Lal masjid drama is ended. I alredy qouted today’s jang news clip about how people in sawat reacted.[unquote]

    Yes, wait till the Sawat people get to know how the Maulana tried to escape. Swat people may be religious but they look down upon people, especially religious leaders, who hide behind burqas.

  106. Adnan Siddiqi says:
    July 4th, 2007 4:36 pm

    THe west don’t need any “foriegn” reason to fight against muslims. They already have their own reasons which are centuries old.

  107. July 4th, 2007 4:53 pm

    What a funny end to this entire saga….. some muslims these people call themselves…. escaping in a burqa!! I thought with saddam in the rat hole I would have seen it all but our dear Mullah tops the list of shamefull surrenders.

    The only good thing is that the innocent brainwashed kids in the madaras were not made a scapegoat. As someone said, the govt should really put on a PR Campagin to show the real face of these so-called muslims who are bringing a bad name to the county, the religion and think that they are doing a johad and following the steps of prohpet’s companions.

    I was even thinking one of the channels should make a Tele-Movie and show what really happened in a docu-drama way and expose these mullahs to the poor people. If only our communications ministers would make use of this opportunity properly and call a jihad against this extermism and false idols. The govt would make the prophet proud if these idols of hypocrasy and falsehood are broken into a million pieces !!

  108. Adnan Siddiqi says:
    July 4th, 2007 4:53 pm

    MQ, asusual you missed the point. It’s not the matter of some Lal masjid. Its rather all about one sided operation against a party while same govt is unable to take any action against NATO forces. The case of lal masjid is up today and would go behind th scenes after few weeks or month but actions by nato forces in Pakistan are enough to make situation worst. The recent attack in Meeran Shah on Military convoy has no relation with Lal masjid but situation like lal masjid would just fuel the bloody environment.

  109. green says:
    July 4th, 2007 5:06 pm

    I cannot even find words to condemn this utterly ridiculous drama. People are so much frustrated but they are falling into the hands of lunatics who claim to be their religious leaders.

  110. green says:
    July 4th, 2007 5:21 pm
  111. baber says:
    July 4th, 2007 5:36 pm

    “The maulana came out of the mosque with a group of girls wearing a burqa and carrying a handbag. The girls protested when he was stopped. But officers were suspicious and after a search, Maulana Abdul Aziz was identified and arrested,” he told the BBC

    With a handbag…geez…this will set a fashion trend among cross dressing mullahs. They talk about shariat enforcing …… hehehe

  112. Kaleem Afzal says:
    July 4th, 2007 5:40 pm

    There is a more sinister side to this drama. Just been watching Geo, AAJ, and it has been found that the wife of Mr. Abdul Aziz was the mastermind behind this whole ugly drama. (Add to it the “dreams” that Mr. Abdul Aziz had).

    However the following facts are really disturbing and every parent who has a child in any school should think about them.

    1.The principal (wife of Mr. Abdul Aziz) was able to control a strength of a thousand odd girls (many of them minors) and then direct them into a totally wrong direction. Most disturbingly no one from the hundreds of adult students raised their objection to what was happening??!!!
    (A big question mark on the kind of education system at a government run madrassa)could be extrapolated to other schools also.

    2. Where were the parents of these children during all this time?

    3. Now it is clear that one person with halucinations and his wife(with strong but misguided aims) single handedly managed to pull off this stunt (The brother Mr. Abdul Rasheed tagged along), which would effect Islamabad and Pakistan for a long time to come. (Again where were the parents all this time)

    4. Did the parents hold any meetings with the teachers or parents of their peers.(Before the crisis) Do schools in Pakistan have PTA’s. Can pupils question their teacher’s motives? Can they question at all?

    5. Are we destined to be a Nation where lambs are lead by another “lamb” into the wolves den? (At all levels, be it the schools, the executive or the judiciary)

    I would suggest leaving the brothers in front of the student’s parents for a while to answer some very hard questions. The government can then put them on trial if the parents haven’t sorted them out by that time.

    Disgusting totally Disgusting.

  113. Saif says:
    July 4th, 2007 6:33 pm

    Now I know why the mullahs insist so much on women wearing Burqas.

  114. Saif says:
    July 4th, 2007 6:49 pm

    I think we should stop calling these people “Maulanas”. They were plain thugs who were exploiting boys and girls from the poorest segment of the society. We should wait and see what was cooking all these years behind chaddars and chardeewari.

  115. Wajahat says:
    July 4th, 2007 8:08 pm

    Not sure what is so surprising in the way the maulana was caught.

    I think the surprising thing would’ve been if he was caught while NOT committing munafqat.

  116. TURAB says:
    July 4th, 2007 8:44 pm

    Long live MUSHI
    Long Live Pakistan!

  117. Zahid says:
    July 4th, 2007 9:08 pm

    Adnan, Oh please! Now come on. Not today. Stop this utterly senless, pain to the head, ranting at least for today.

  118. MQ says:
    July 4th, 2007 9:57 pm

    The English daily The News takes the cake for this headline:

    The Capture of “Auntie” Aziz!

  119. Aqil Sajjad says:
    July 4th, 2007 10:11 pm

    One problem with being a bearded molvi and trying to escape in a burqa is that you can’t try to put on a wig and dress totally like a woman a la Begum Navazish Ali. :)
    Lesson: if you are trying to escape like this, be sure to be clean shaved. Also do some practise to talk in a female voice so that you are not in trouble if the security guards ask you to speak. :)

  120. Wajahat says:
    July 4th, 2007 10:48 pm

    Ameer-ul-momineen: CD-70

    Saddam Hussain: Rat hole

    Auntie Aziz: Burqa clad.

    Lets see what other modes the other
    brave muslim sipha-a-salaars of the 21st century will use for their dastardly escape.

  121. tina says:
    July 4th, 2007 11:07 pm

    Hmm…..actually I have heard of this before, apparently the Taliban makes use of this device often. It is actually a good reason to ban the wearing of burqas. They are a security risk, and prevent identification.

    I am sure the maulvi did not like to dress in the garments of the women he so despises. But some of the comments on this thread veer perilously close to sharing the disgust. Gee, I guess the only thing worse than wearing women’s clothes must be…being a woman. Thanks everyone.

    Would be nice, and maybe helpful to the country, if poor young women had some other way to feel power and accomplishment than by becoming religious nuts and carrying dandas at the behest of the monster who brainwashed them. Let’s see…..could we possibly, just possibly, now see the need for universal quality (or at least equitable) public education for girls? Or does everyone feel it is a fine idea for the madrassahs to continue to pick up the slack (not that most of them offer girls anything at all, Lal Masajid appears to be a bit of an exception to the usual model. Many seminaries outspokenly advocate keeping women illiterate).

    Everything from the very beginning, the burqa wearing women “brigades”, the choice of kidnapping victims, the shops targeted, the demands and issues raised, centers on women, nothing else. It appears that the desire to keep women face down in the dirt is the one main thing tearing Islam apart today. Now we see the spectacle of some niqabi girls violently attempting to uphold their own oppression. Individual women often do that, but most interesting to see the mindset operating in a group format.

    A century from now when researchers are done studying the case, I bet they will find the mental processes involved similar to those of Stockholm Syndrome.

  122. Saad says:
    July 4th, 2007 11:43 pm

    Maulana Abdul Ghazi’s interview with ARY tv after the arrest of his elder brother, “Auntie”(sic) Aziz.


  123. chief sahib says:
    July 5th, 2007 12:27 am

    Burqa Clad Mullah
    they should make posters and billboards with this pic

  124. July 5th, 2007 1:06 am

    Adnan, Oh please! Now come on. Not today. Stop this utterly senless, pain to the head, ranting at least for today.

    Ranting? Ok, so if I am talking about Real face of WRIT OF GOVERNMENT and an illegal state like Islamabad so it become senseless?

    you are right, I should give YOU a chance to rant against molvi fraternity because this the *right* movement for you to start cursing every molvi on earth and then you guys would also want to convince others that yuo are educated and enlightened. I second what atif says, one group down but another group which belongs to leftist cabal is up on this forum.

  125. July 5th, 2007 1:09 am

    The reason entire molvi cabal is hated . Offcourse these “molvis” always become in such sitations of KHuwar liberals of posh areas:


  126. AUK says:
    July 5th, 2007 1:35 am

    Tina Ji, It is not that these Maulvis despise women, it is the obsession that the ultimate sin is promiscuity and hence the desire to even have the remotest of possibilities for this to happen. It is also the belief that your desires will dominate you more than anything else when given the chance. Hence the best way to keep the women pure is by not even affording the chance of looking at them or getting close to them. Keep them locked up in their homes, as is the norm in Afghanistan or even in tribal areas. It is almost primal instinct, but have pervaded whole societies or parts thereof, and have survived the test of time. They don’t realize that they have dragged themselves down by keeping their women down.

  127. cameo says:
    July 5th, 2007 1:53 am

    hahhaha man this is soo funny…. Auntie Aziz LOL

  128. Shehzad Ahmed Mir says:
    July 5th, 2007 2:27 am

    AUNTIE Shamim, AUNTIE Chinese Maalish & now AUNTIE Aziz….this BURQA seems to hide all kinds of social vices may they be religious or otherwise!

  129. asa says:
    July 5th, 2007 2:30 am

    Has anyone heard the news about CJ tomorow? NO. Any news about the flood victims and the aid that’s coming for them?NO. Any news about the ref. against Imran Khan?NO. News that why Aamir Liaqat gave his resignation.

    Well done mushy you have succeeded in divert the attention it proves again pakistani folks are soulless and quite happy with tyranny.

  130. MB says:
    July 5th, 2007 2:42 am

    “Why Pakistan was established is in history

  131. Kruman says:
    July 5th, 2007 3:03 am

    This will be my last post on this topic:) This circus of clowns (mullas and the generals) simply does not deserve my attention and comments.

    I am amazed at people bashing each other on religion, politics over the the 3 stooges i.e. the mulla brothers and Musharraf. BTW I’d pick Mush to be Moe, he even looks like him; plus Moe has the “brains” amongst the three.

    The whole lal masjid episode was a set up. In the end it was a win-win situation for Mush. If he crushed them he looked good as a strong leader; if he did not act, he’d choose another day (a bad one politically for him) to crush them.

    The mullas should be publicly hanged for inciting violence and and fasad. They are responsible for the deaths of 21 innocent people in the last 2 days.

  132. Asma says:
    July 5th, 2007 3:10 am
  133. Naseem says:
    July 5th, 2007 3:15 am

    Overall the government has till now handled this well and carefully. The worst case woudl be if this became a Waco. It still coudl but till now the government has been able to be careful and I think it must remain this way.

  134. Ehtesham says:
    July 5th, 2007 3:20 am

    I just went through all the comments very carefully. Unless I am missing something it seems that there is NO ONE who is defencing teh actions of the Lal Masjid people. There are many differences but on this point people seem to agree. They do disagree on role of religion and some seem to dislike the military so much that they hesitate in supporting even this action only for that reason. But good news is that everyone agrees that Lal masjid actions were wrong and needed to be stopped.

  135. New Comer says:
    July 5th, 2007 3:33 am

    I just went back and read past posts on this Lal Masjid issue by following links on the side column. I am very impressed by the very balanced way that this web site has consistently followed this issue. Congratulations to this website for a really splendid job in this regards. The same is true for CJ coverage. All this is very comprehensive.

    I have also been very impressed by Adil Najam’s writing here and also read his article in The News on Lal Masjid. Very well argued and his analysis and timing is impressive. Good to have him writing for this website.

  136. Malik says:
    July 5th, 2007 3:37 am

    People who are calling this smokescreen and worrying that CJP issue has been sidelined for now (I am sure we will be hearing about it again very soon), would they really have preferred that this Lal Masjid situation have continued? I also do not like Musharraf and I very much care about the CJP situation, but I care much much more about Pakistan and this situation was very dangerous for the future of Pakistan.

  137. Qaisrani says:
    July 5th, 2007 3:39 am

    Thumbs up to MB. Keep up the good posts…..

  138. ayesha sajid says:
    July 5th, 2007 4:19 am

    So much has unfolded in the past two days… for starters we as Pakistanis can now relate to the American obsession over the OJ Simsons car escape and its live coverage.

    The man who asked so many of the innocent students to toe his version of Islam, put himself and the entire cadre of Mullahs to shame by escaping the way he did. It was funny and yet sad to hear the way students have been brain washed in that compound … one female student said … ” if Aziz Bhatti could blow himself in enemy territory and was proclaimed a ‘shaheed’ then why cant we as suicide bombers be called shaheed !!”

    is the the distorted version of history that is taught in the Jamia Hafsa ??
    More then a relegious seminary this seems like the ‘Waco Compound’ being run on the whims of a leader ( he reminds me of Himesh Reshamaya )

    Some people on this forum are very vocally taking sides of the so called Molvees and keep saying why should the enlightened moderates dump all the bearded brigades together ?

    For them all i have to say is , this trend is actually started by the self proclaimed relegious experts. they are the ones who have divided the society into “either you are one of us or you are the enemy of Islam”.
    Any woman not wearing a burqa is promiscious
    Any man not wearing a beard is westeren influenced anti islam.

    Come on people , learn from the chicken hearted cowardly escape and then the half hearted non valid justification of that act by the so called schion of Islam … aunty aziz.

    Who has given the man with a beard the right to dictate whether my Islam is lesser then his ??
    Who gets to decide which one of us are better humans in the eyes of Allah ?
    What makes them the leaders of Islam and its teachings?
    Am i not answerable for my deeds just teh way they are for thiers ?
    Why is Islam from a relegion of peace being turned into a militant and non tolerant ?
    why do they can dictate the relegious values according to thier understanding of the Quran and i am supposed to listen to them ,
    why cant they tolerate if my understanding are different from thiers.

  139. ayesha sajid says:
    July 5th, 2007 4:23 am

    Well done MB.
    you have so eloquently put on paper all that i wanted to but could not.

  140. Ajnabee says:
    July 5th, 2007 4:35 am

    Remeber these two Maulanas prefer to be Ghazis (bhagoray)…never like to be shaheed.

  141. Kruman's_alter_ego says:
    July 5th, 2007 5:43 am

    Sorry for the direct statements, but pal you are the one fixated on the mullas and the violence. You are the one lending the fanatics credibility by calling them representatives of contemporary Islam.

    When did anyone say there is anything to understand about violence? It should be denounced unequivoclly and Muslims should distance themselves from such fanatics.
    In the case of the lal masjid, the fanatic mullas should be hanged for:
    1) inciting violence
    2) murder of atleast 21 people

    Fanatic mullas and the fanatic liberals are two sides of the same coin. Muslims get crushed by both sides. Both try to subvert and sabotage the religion, they also feed each other with fodder.

    Instead of following the fanatic liberals or the rabid mullahs we need to reclaim our faith and it’s values of peace, equality, tolerance, compassion, and justice. We need to build a civil society in Pakistan where the rule of law is supreme, where every man has izzat-e nafs.
    This was the purpose behind the creation of Pakistan.


  142. Aqil Sajjad says:
    July 5th, 2007 6:26 am

    They have been showing parents of Jama-e-hafza students on TV. All seemingly uneducated and belonging to the under-privelleged segments of society. The crisis made them worried and they came looking for their children; otherwise, while lal masjid and jama-e-hafza were openly defying the state, most of the parents probably didn’t think/know it would get so serious.

    Hopefully, this will make other parents more careful while sending their kids to madrassas. But more importantly, the government needs to work on the reasons why parents send their kids to such places.

    Other questions need to be asked about funding and weapons. Where does jama-e-hafza get so much money from and why that philanthropy can’t be channeled into proper schools? Are there possible consequences for people who donate to such madrassas?

    Also, we haven’t heard anything on jama-e-faridia (the other madrassa affiliated with lal masjid). Is it also going to be dismantled?

  143. Naseem says:
    July 5th, 2007 8:00 am

    Assalamau Laikum all,

    While it is amusing that we have had Auntie Aziz on the TV…Pak has become the laughing stock of the world.

    We are supposed to be the pure…and there is no getting away from that…and that means sharia….how can we be pure without it. I think it is shameful that even after 60 years we are not shariat compliant.

    Jinnah didn’t put in the frame and Zia-ul-Haq did a botch job too…”we must get closer to our religion” he said.
    Through the ISI he asked for the formation of the Taliban …as long as they spread their “message” outside of Pak…like Afganistan or Azad Kashmir.

    Maddrassas were build in the hundreds …and a more militant tone taken in there….what astounding shame we should feel for some to twist the peaceful message of our prophet PBUH into hate for our fellow man.

    Ofcourse, it was always only going to be a matter of time before these peoples realised….”Hang on…we are becoming martyers fighting over here and the peoples of the pure are abusing the laws of Allah SWT”….so they have decided to do something about it for they “know better”.

    Students of Lal Masjid cannot be held to account alone….previous government policy has led us to this shameful yet comical point….and still no sharia. We seriously need to address this point….we are allah’s SWT peoples …and must live by his laws of peace.

  144. marya says:
    July 5th, 2007 8:00 am

    Whatever happend, whatever was the reason behind this drama, whatever was the game, i just am hurt, like muslims all over, why did that rascal use Burqa as a shiled, why did he humiliate dat?
    he was the religious scholar (so-called), why then , for heaven’s sake, why then he tried to escape leaving girls inside the madrasa, he is a ridicule for islam, he is another fitna,who makes our religion a laughing stock can never be forgiven, na is jahan mein na aglay mein

  145. Naseem says:
    July 5th, 2007 8:11 am

    Assalamau Laikum Marya,

    You says, “he is a ridicule for islam, he is another fitna,who makes our religion a laughing stock can never be forgiven, na is jahan mein na aglay mein”.

    Ameen to that…what is even worse for me is that this will give shariat a bad name..(they will associate it Lal masjid episode) and put shriat even further away from us…at a time when we could really use it to enhance our lives and reduce corruption.

  146. Jamshed Nazar says:
    July 5th, 2007 8:12 am

    I think these madrassa kids are sermoned to live inside a BUBBLE

    A Bubble – where morality is supreme. There is only black and white, and grey does not exist. The reality of life is considered too fickle and short and everyone prefers the short cut of shahadat ticket to heavendom.

    Muslim cultural sensitivity is strict and wine, women (girlfirends) and fun sports are frowned upon.

    Well, this is fine – as long as the alternate is available and pursued and there are fun activites to do and marriage is facilitated etc etc.
    But normally what happens with some of these Madrassa people (& non Madressa folks) is a hatred of other people in society who are engaged in the “fun” activites.

    Young fundamentalists, with a hatred of these “vices”, take the quick short cut of jihad / shahadat etc by fighting the “devilish” people in the society among them. This “shortcut to heavendom and 70 Hoors etc” is where the fault line exists.

    I call this a Bubble mentality.

    I would say that Muslim cultural sensitivty should result in setting up an alternate muslim life style to these western “vices”. (Ofcourse, many Muslmis are also practicing exactly that).
    Ok, so you dont like wine / women / clubs / dancing etc. Great – then Go setup a good family life, work hard / honest every day, generate resources, devlop your community help other people every day and enjoy life the way u like it. In essense, build your alternate life style and Live your life. But if you want to go beating around these other people with your dandas and kashnakovs, then be ready to be also beaten up and then dont run in Burqas and then released video casettes from cave hideouts.

    Living this honest, moral, hard working life every day is a real struggle and who wants to spend too much time doing that – so these young muslim people would take up the short cut of Jihad / shahadat etc.

  147. Jyoti says:
    July 5th, 2007 8:34 am

    Wonder what’s the matter with “azizs” in Pakistan… first Shaukat Aziz beahving oddly with Condi Rice, and now Maulana Aziz in burqa:)

  148. Asma says:
    July 5th, 2007 8:40 am

    any youtube videos of Maulana abdul aziz’s interview with ary??? darn !!! I missed that .

  149. July 5th, 2007 8:59 am

    I wonder how these Maulvis will look dressed up inhigh heels and lipstick, maybe we can now have a new trend! The ‘Aunitie Mullah Alliance’ ?

    Auntie Mulana Fazal Ur Rehman in an Orange Burkha – whips it off and heh its lipstick, SKIRT – oh my gosh – thats really awful, Auntie Qazi Hussain, Auntie Sami Ul Haq (he already wears eye shadow…

    Begum Nawazish Ali – you have started a new trend!

    Guess it could be worse… Auntie Aziz maybe was pregnant and thats why they thought he has a pot belly – maybe thats why Chaudary Shujaat visited him often…

  150. Pervaiz Munir Alvi says:
    July 5th, 2007 9:48 am

    Lal Masjad Phenomenon has to be examined in a broader perspective:

    Where do the funds come from to establish such institutions. Who supports these establishments.

    What makes parents to send their children to these institutions. Why society is willing to tolerate these establishments.

    Why there are no checks and balances regarding these institutions. Why there is no Government oversight.

    Unless these questions are dealt with by the society itself, there will be more ‘Lal Masjads’ in the future and more blood shed.

  151. Khayam says:
    July 5th, 2007 9:57 am

    Dear Brothers and Sisters in Islam.
    I Pray to ALLAH that all this mess ends peacefully and sooner than later.
    I request you ALL for one thing
    Musarraf came into power and he had a job to finish and that was to “held Accountable all those who played all those years with the fate of this lands unfortunate people”.Bringing them to justice and making them pay for their crimes they committed.Unfortunately, whom do we see around him today?the very same Cronies OR their second generation, and no wonder Mr.Musharaf has done nothing more than inflatting an empty balloon with an air that as soon he is gone so will be gone that wind out and everthing done in last years will become inexistint and we are all be back to Square 1.
    Now he has this time one more chance to clean this country form all these heavily paid Agents of Faith (not all of them though)and once and for all let people of the country decide where they really want to go as for theirs and Pakistan’s future is concerned.
    I strongly believe that the people of Pakistan may be poor,may very well be not as educated but Believe me I have gone around the world and do not meet people like mine People.So do I believe how great the Mothers and Daughters of this nation are.All what we need to realize is Mutually respecting eachother and help filling the gaps that one occurs to have while other is givien the gift to fill and I promise this mother earth will INSHALLAH soon feel the pride of hosting such NATION of DIGNITY again.
    Sol please let us help and convince this Man (Musharraf)that if he really intends to live through history with rememberence different than his predecessors he should listen to us not the people distant.

  152. Khayam says:
    July 5th, 2007 10:09 am

    In TOTAL agreement with Munir Alvi..
    Let not only ask these questions but also lets make the Government persue these BIG ????? Finding Answers and solution to this delimma once and for all.

  153. jayjay says:
    July 5th, 2007 10:12 am

    Khayam: You are digressing (or “dreaming” a la Burqa Auntie). Let stay focus on the Lal Masjid crisis.

  154. faraz says:
    July 5th, 2007 10:30 am

    In Karachi i have seen that in every locality you will find one madrassah giving shelters to poor childs. These madrassah or “Jamias” are partially funded by locals. I wish if we can either divert these resourses or can convince these “molvis” to teach them moderate education. These “Jamias” are the biggest charity in our country and nothing can change overnight. We have to court moderate molvis with us to find a solution.

  155. tina says:
    July 5th, 2007 10:56 am

    It’s been a great day for the burqa.

    Two men in Bosnia just robbed a bank of 40,000 euros under cover of burqa. The blog Progressive Muslima has the link, or you can google it.

    It’s time to follow the example of Turkey and ban this garment.

    on pedophile possibility. Haven”t Christian priests operated under a similar program for centuries? If Muslims in Pakistan can confront this evil head on and stamp it out, they will have proven themselves much better than the Catholic church which *still* tolerates the practice.

  156. Pervaiz Munir Alvi says:
    July 5th, 2007 11:26 am

    “Muhammad Abdul Aziz is son of Maulana Muhammad Abdullah Shaheed, the first leader of Lal-Masjid prayer. Maulana Abdul Aziz served as officially designated prayer leader in government constructed and owned Lal Masjad until 2005. Pakistan’s last military ruler, General Zia-ul-Haq, was said to be very close to Maulana Abdullah, who was notorious for fanning sectarianism as well as delivering firebrand speeches on Jihad. Maulana Abdul Aziz came to Islamabad as a six-year-old boy from his home town in Balochistan when his father was appointed Khatib (prayer leader) of Lal-Masjid in 1966″.

    Mr. Ejaz-ul-Huq, a son of General Zia-ul-Huq is the current Federal Minister for the Religious Affairs in the present government headed by General Pervez Musharraf. Military as well as Civilian Governments’ complacency in Lal Masjad affairs for the past 40 years could hardly be ignored. Would Maulana brothers, Abdul Aziz and Abdul Rashid be punished for their crimes. Does not seem very likely. Where is Mr. Ejaz-ul-Huq on this.

  157. tina says:
    July 5th, 2007 11:37 am

    Naseem, there are no pure people. Not in Pakistan nor anywhere else on this planet. And since there are no pure people, there can be no pure and equitable application of Shar’ia. The best that we can hope for in this imperfect world is a secular government with a clear separation between masajid, church, temple, and the state. Nothing else has even come close to working, ever. It’s the best model we’ve got.

    Shar’ia wherever it has been implemented has resulted in a series of pornographically violent punishments meted out to people for offenses that are no longer considered crimes in the West, or for very minor crimes. A thief may reform if given the opportunity; his permanent mutilation prevents his rehabilitation and perhaps condemns him to starve. True with no hands he cannot steal, but he also cannot learn to work honestly. Muslims need to think about the punitive, shame-based philosophy that Sharia represents.

    At one time in England there were almost 200 crimes which had the death penalty. A person could be boiled alive for counterfeiting pennies, or torn apart by two teams of horses for stealing a lamb. These horrific “sentences” had little to do with the crime committed. They provided public spectacles for the people, allowing them to redirect their anger and rage at the “criminal” rather than turning it towards where it belonged, the idle upper classes who lived sumptuously off the commoner’s backbreaking labor. They also kept people in a state of terrified obesiance.

    When people gather in a football stadium in Afghanistan or Nigeria to watch women being driven in by rifle butts and then stoned, or when a man is strapped to frame and flayed alive with a whip in Pakistan, there is a political rather than a legal or religious purpose being served, although victim and spectators alike may not see it that way. The power structure must remain intact, and this is one way for the people in power to keep it together, through a combination of imposing terror and providing outlets for venting. It may not appear that the girl being stoned for having a boyfriend is being killed for a political offense, but she is. The man being torn with 100 lashes for “drunkeness” may not be thought of as victim of political persecution, but he is.

    Religion has nothing to do with all this. It is, as in the times of the Catholic Inquisition, an excuse. Its tendency to be used as an excuse is a good reason to keep it out of the judicial system.

    Everybody has their own ideas about Sharia would “really” be like if applied by “pure” or “honest” people. It wouldn’t result in stoning alive teenage girls–really really it wouldn’t, they argue! Well, this is what it has resulted in when applied by imperfect people, and no humans are evidently perfect enough to apply it, so I think the logical conclusion is that we should not have any Sharia.

    Jinnah did not set up any framework for a Taliban like state, Naseem, because that was not what he envisioned for Pakistan. I think he would be horrified by the thought. The Muslim countries that are most advanced are secularized democracies. This is what Pakistan needs to be also.

  158. TURAB says:
    July 5th, 2007 11:41 am

    one question to ponder upon is ,,, we as pakistanis have a factory of maulanas that we also like to call alim e deen,,, Of them how many are so credible that the entire Muslim Ummah considers them the real alim e deen?

  159. AUK says:
    July 5th, 2007 11:53 am

    I am not sure about others, but the ridiculousness of this whole situation is too obvious to me. Why are we still talking to Abdul Rashid Ghazi (media or whoever). Why doesn’t anyone realize that the moment the first soldier was hit in the chest by a bullet from inside the madrassa, the game was over. They could have talked about their moral high ground upto that point, but from then on, they became criminals. Shahid Masood on Geo is now annoying me, by talking to this guy, and he giving his explanations thinking if there is still a way out, and putting forward his demands. There is no way out, not for him or for anyone else who expects to pick up arms against any government, be it Mush or whoever. These thugs will be tried by no ordinary courts now, but by anti-terrorism courts, and if they come out of the mosque alive, they will be hanged soon.

  160. Adnan Ahmad says:
    July 5th, 2007 12:12 pm

    AUK, Welcome to the politics of the 21st century. Remember Wag the Dog. Without going into details, does anyone remember anymore someone named Ifitkhar Chaudary, the non-functional chief justice? This entire circus has been blown out of proportion and is being used for as much leverage as possible. It seems Durr-Fitte and Tariq Azeem have finally pulled off a stunt that has actually helped the general. As someone said this was a day’s job that sould have been done six months ago.

  161. baber says:
    July 5th, 2007 12:24 pm

    Whats pathetic is no matter where in the world, these extremists always use innocent people (young and old) as human shields. This is no jihad but killing your own people. Look at it like this, how many talented people who would serve the world better are put into arms way in the name of jihad. Preachers/defenders of Islam on this blog, note that its the mullahs(like Gazi brotehrs) thats are hurting Islam not the west. Drama or not I would like to see an end to this soon.

  162. symk says:
    July 5th, 2007 12:26 pm

    This is a lesson for all collaborators of the government that they will be disgraced when they have served their purpose. The crazy brothers were timing their adventures at the very moments when government was in trouble. When the entire country was focussing on CJ’s case they kidnapped chinese girls.It is a humiliating end for the lal masjid brothers but government will delay this drama and noora kushti until APC is over and Fazlur Rehman had a great excuse not to attend the APC. Government came out successful from this mess with full cooperation from Maulana Fazlur rehman and lal masjid brothers

  163. Naseem says:
    July 5th, 2007 12:27 pm

    Assalamau Laikum Tina,

    Many peoples, including us Muslims, misunderstand Sharia. It’s often associated with the amputation of limbs, (as by you for example) death by stoning, lashes and other medieval punishments. Because of this, it is sometimes thought of as draconian. Western peoples view Sharia as archaic and unfair social ideas that are imposed upon the citizens.

    The devout Muslim (like myself) however see it as something that nurtures humanity as it is divinely revealed. Can you not see that in a society where social problems are endemic, Sharia frees humanity to realise its individual potential, in this regard Pak would benefit very much from Sharia.

    Sharia is not something the intelligence of man can prove wrong, (which is something that you have tried to do) it can only to be accepted by humans, for Sharia law, derives from the teachings of the holy Koran and from Sunna, …we see in the Koran Sharif:

    Chapter 45: The Chapter of the Kneeling

  164. Qadeer says:
    July 5th, 2007 12:44 pm

    I find it sad that people here are actually supporting the Lal Masjid maulvis indirectly by raising this CJ issue. NO, NO ONE HAS FORGOTTEN IT. I see a post on this right here, go and comment on that and it will be alive. The court is still hearing the case. What these posters are really saying is that they support the Lal Masjid and its actions and they are using the boogey of crocodile tears for Balochistan and CJ. Are we incapable of thinking of three issues at the same time. Please stop supporting the extremists of Lal masji by highjacking these other issues and using them as a shied just like teh lal Masjid people use kids as shields.

  165. Qaiser says:
    July 5th, 2007 12:58 pm

    Just heard Mulla Aziz on TV in live interview where he says he will surrender but if they are not arrested and tried as criminals because they are not ‘jarayam paisha’ (criminals). Govt was at same time announcing that no negotiations are going on and demanding unconditional surresnder of Lal Masjid administration. The operation today seems to have gone to next step. Govt is also stepping up its pressure with more firing since now only the most hardcore people are in the Lal Masjid. This situation is not ending any time soon but it is going to next stage. Till now govt has been very careful and I hope they will remain careful.

  166. Aqil Sajjad says:
    July 5th, 2007 1:11 pm

    So Abdul Rasheed Ghazi is trying to negotiate a surrender such that he won’t be arrested and tried for any crimes. The govt is asking for an unconditional surrender.
    This is basically the main hurdle, the coward, after all the talk of shahadat and putting so many lives in danger, is more interested in saving his own backside rather than making sure that these lives can be saved. He would rather have all of them fight till death so that he can be spared the disgrace of being arrested.
    This is what you call hypocrisy of the highest order.

  167. Aqil Sajjad says:
    July 5th, 2007 1:13 pm

    Nice to hear NS talking sense on the issue instead of mindlessly siding with lal masjid to get cheep political milage.
    He says that noone should be allowed to run a state within a state and the lal masjid brothers should be tried.

  168. faraz says:
    July 5th, 2007 1:33 pm

    Well Naseem the way I see Sharia is hegemony of one school of thoughts on others. Let me ask you a question. Why reformers like Allama Iqbal and Sir Syed were born in english era and we dont see any great reformer after Pakistan?

    The reason is without competition you dont work to improve your product. This principle applies in “free market economy” as well as it works in “market of ideas”. You need to allow a healthy but decent debate for society to evolve intellctaully.

    Our Ullemas threatened Rushdi with death threat because they did not knew how to respond differently. I have no problem with society becoming religious as long as you give poeple other choices. I dont see how such a freedom of expression is possible under Sharia.

  169. ayesha sajid says:
    July 5th, 2007 1:45 pm

    Faraz , you say ……. “I dont see how such a freedom of expression is possible under Sharia.”

    would it not be more appropriate to say that it would not be possible to have such a freedom of expression and might i add tolerance under THIER version of the Shariah ?

  170. tina says:
    July 5th, 2007 1:55 pm

    I think you are young, Naseem….there are no utopias. Attempts to create them have throughout history ended in unspeakable horror. Always, always, always.

  171. baber says:
    July 5th, 2007 2:00 pm

    “Can you not see that in a society where social problems are endemic, Sharia frees humanity to realise its individual potential, in this regard Pak would benefit very much from Sharia.”

    Societies where their are less social problems have evolved without shariat. Its a matter of ethics which comes with good education doesn’t really need to be religious.

  172. faraz says:
    July 5th, 2007 2:02 pm

    I think it is a “philosphical” debate.

    Well just think that you believe in set of axioms which you think as universal truth. Why in the world you will allow set of axioms which you think as false and evil to progress?

    For example “earth revolves around sun”. Will you allow the axioms “Sun revolves around moon” to be teach in school.

    Religion sees world in balck and white. It is simplistic view of reality.

    Religion is sill an important institute as it is a way to God but after enlightement of 17th century it should be taken spritually rather literally.

  173. Akif Nizam says:
    July 5th, 2007 2:04 pm

    Naseem, instead of a lot of non-specific claims, can you specify maybe five points that can be implemented by a “human” society (as oppossed to that of angels) in its quest for Sharia? Let’s say you are given unlimited power in Pakistan to impose the “real” Sharia, what will you do?

  174. Naseem says:
    July 5th, 2007 2:38 pm

    Assalamau Laikum Tina, Faraz

    I am not so young…and I know there utopias are near enough impossible…but I also know that few peoples really try to really call Allah’s SWT blessings..of humality, love and charity.

    Faraz says “I dont see how such a freedom of expression is possible under Sharia”.

    Sharia is not about freedom of expression …it is about the expression of Allah SWT for us muslims …and should equate to the same thing as freedom for us.

    By questioning the need for sharia, you are questioning the edict for muslims…you are questioning the ultimate…the identity of being a muslim….i.e. the unquestioning loyalty to the Koran…the literal words of Allah SWT.

    Forgive me I do not want to put you on the spot, and in no way do I want to be seen as a trouble maker…but I must now ask the question “You are not questioning these literal words of our Lord are you”?

  175. Shiraz says:
    July 5th, 2007 2:40 pm

    Religion should be taken out of any government. Time and again, it was shown that people use religion for satisfying their own needs. Keep religion between you and God. HE will understand. I mean are people saying that Muslims in USA and other secular countries are LESS or MORE Muslims than Muslims in Pakistan ?

    Reza Aslan, (rezaaslan.org), renowned sholar and Author of No God but God, spoke to us and mentioned that reformation in Islam is happening. He said you will see various versions of Islam, Pakistani, American, Canadian etc. The reason is that youth now a days dont rely on clerics or molvis, they can interpret Quran, Sharia, Sunnah and understand what they want to..

    He said it is not good or bad..it is inevitable.

    So as Kama Ata Turk gave power of Ottoman Empire to THE PEOPLE OF TURKEY…the caliphate ended there..I think we should keep it there..

  176. Wasiq says:
    July 5th, 2007 2:57 pm

    The last many comments seem totally out of place, irrelevant and on wrong post. Guys, this post is on Lal Masjid. WHAT has sharih got to do with this?

    Here is a case of a bunch of criminals and kidnappers and blackmailers who were terrorizing society and rightly a police action was taken against them. WHy make it any more complicated than that?

    Just because they go around having beards and wearing burqas (at teh same time in one case) and give themselves fancy but meaningless titles like Maulanas does not mean that they are speaking for any religion. As a muslim i certainly do not see any of them as an aalim i deen. They are behroopias. What they do or do not do has nothing to do with religion. The Waco Texas people also thought they were about religion. It is only you who are turning them into some sort of religious leaders by talking about them as if they are. What they have done and what they want to do has nothing to do with Islam. It is just criminals using Islam as a disguise for their own sick ideas just like they tried wearing the burqa as a disguise. Again, by talking of them as religious leaders you will make them religious leaders instead of the criminals they are. But that is what they want!

  177. July 5th, 2007 2:58 pm

    shariat needs to come from within you and your understanding of islam, you must practice it over yourself before others.
    unlike these mullahs who take little kids to be their slaves and servents and disciples – they want to become god – and we need to fight them – all of these mullahs, enough is enough – no more experiments on muslims in pakistan by illetrate mullahs

  178. Kruman says:
    July 5th, 2007 3:04 pm

    Operation lal masjid is a blockbuster success. I think Lollywood has just found it’s saviors, the iintelligence agencies.

    My hat off to the 3 stooges Moe (Musharraf), burqa-clad mulla and Ghazi sahib on this brilliant episode.

    For the diehard fans: this episode will climax either on the weekend when the APC convenses in London or late next week, when the SC verdict is announced.

  179. Adnan Siddiqi says:
    July 5th, 2007 3:18 pm

    Dear Mb, since you are a newbie therefore I had suggested you that whatever points you raised were already discussed a lot but since you and me love each other alot, therefore I would like to explain once again[with permission of adil najam]

    Those who called our leaders kafir-e-Azam & thrashed Iqbal & Sir Syed as English agents have hijacked this la

    Someone would have said but you didn’t try to find out that Jinnah’s mUSLIM status was offended by leftist as liberals and secularists as well and declared them a person who is NOT aware of Islam.

    The evil started the day someone proposed to add the word ISLAMic with republic of Pakistan.

    May I enlighten you that one of the DEVIL was Mr.Jinnah as well who wanted to make this state an Islamic state? NO i was not told by some molvi,i am talking on basis of two speeches by Jinnah which were referred several time on this forum as well. ANd Mind you, those speeches are not OBSCURE like his 11th august speech which seculars used to declare Pakistan a secular state. Use SEARCH option to find those speeches on this forum.

    This by logic gave the Muslims an upper hand & made the non-muslims 2nd class citizens.

    In India, Hindus are considered 1st class citizen so in US, Ameircnas are 1st class citizens.

    You are by default prejudiced if you think just because we are Muslims so Islam is something above other religions.

    I don’t know in which context you used the term “prejudice” but as far as considering Islam “better” or above than other religion then it has reasons, one is human nature which asks one person to feel proud of something. Ask a Hindu, he would praise Hinduism first. The famous Indian drama director Ekta Kapoor’s all dramas are based on Hinduism and I respect that lady that she’s passionate to spread word of her lords by using her skills.Something which muslims should do as well. Similarly A jew would feel more proud on his religion than anything else. Second is Islamic point of view, meray bhai if you read Quran then Allah itself says that He selected Islam His favorite religion and He cancelled all previous shariah. Now whether ALlah was right or wrong, i leave it upto you but feeling proud for something doesn’t mean rejecting other religion. Anyone who know basics of Islam understands that Islam talks more than any religon on earth about minorities.

    I told you once on one of KMB post that generalizing is not a good thing. Generlizing scholars is like generalizing that all pathans are “homos” which is very common perspective in Pakistani society. If you suggest that there should be NO ulema then I am afraid next day you would suggest that there should be no teacher in school or varsity. You need to learn importance of a mentor in a society. After parents,teachers are our mentors. In a religious environment, scholars are religious mentors. You have no idea what comes out in absence of relgious clergy. Just look at USA, despite of all technology and civilized advancements, they are helpless to stop the decline of moral values in their society. as far as Islam is compatible or not, it was also dicussed on a recent post that Quran ans science. If you talk about social values than it’s Islam which even appreciates and rewards if you remove a stone from road. At one side it gives sawab to the person while on other hand,this act saved many to fall due to the stone or any other obstacle on road. Zakat is the most solid and organized religious concept which doesnt exist in any other religion. so being mouth piece of others and saying something is not compatible is very childish.

    Since when our Ulema preached dialogue, since when they invested billions into institutions like the Al-Azhar by 4th Fatimid Caliph or “The Academy

  180. Toryalai says:
    July 5th, 2007 3:21 pm

    To those are getting into the debate of Sharia, I would like to say it’s not that simple and I don’t see a single muslim country where it has been applied in its entirety! Each mullah/sect has its version of Sahria! Some sects openly call for killing other muslims while there are those who declare others kaafirs. The simple fact is these MAULVIS are illitrate and extremely opportunists; they get their wages for causing FITNA from their respective countries, even from non-muslim powers. The Lal mosque saga is a very sad one for the future of Pakistan: one one hand it shows a bunch of unemployed, illiterate and underclass taliban-like people, taking orders from their exploiters and on the other hand we have seen the complicity of other so-called Ulamaa, who did not play their active role in stopping these criminals, thus becoming part of the problem.

    It is therefore pointless to talk about sharia and religion because the masses are fed up with mullahs, their version of Islam and the religious hatred and murders they are causing, almost in all the muslim countries.

  181. faraz says:
    July 5th, 2007 3:37 pm

    Naseem you are starting a debate which is irrevelnt to topic but lets face it. you said.

    “Forgive me I do not want to put you on the spot, and in no way do I want to be seen as a trouble maker…but I must now ask the question “You are not questioning these literal words of our Lord are you

  182. Adnan Siddiqi says:
    July 5th, 2007 3:41 pm

    Since religion is being condemned by our resident specialists and I just talked about American society which is usually idealized by our PARHA LIKHA TABQA, I wonder did anyone in US bother to read book,”Our Endangered Values: America’s Moral Crisis” by Jimmy Carter? specially by Prof of Lit? It’s also available on Amazon.

  183. baber says:
    July 5th, 2007 3:57 pm

    Adnan no body is condeming religion, its the politics of religion that is hurting/killing people everywhere not just pakistan. Why are you so sensitive to criticizim of religion?

  184. Naseem says:
    July 5th, 2007 5:31 pm

    Assalamau Laikum all,

    Some peoples are asking why we are talking about Sharia. Well IMHO this is central to the argument isn’t it.

    Mualana Aziz took his stance and got his followers to push because they were not happy with Pak law…i.e. it is based on Western law…and not sharia…and as muslims they are unhappy with the corruption they saw.

    Further, they wanted the army’s (the one thing that works in Pak) power to be weakned…something that will never be allowed.

    What the Aziz bros did wrong was to use violence rather than use tenets of Islam…and that is wrong…but does that mean sharia is wrong? No.

    People get upset about this, but this is not right, as we have to discuss these sensitive issues, as muslims we have to practice and then show off our sharia to the rest of the world encouraging them to take it up too.

  185. Zahra M. says:
    July 5th, 2007 5:33 pm

    Prof. Adil Najam, the article you wrote in The News yesterday on the Balochistan situation was the most thoughtful and inspiring thing I have read in a long time. I wish the authorities will read that and pay attention to what you said. We need to start thinking about what is really most important.

  186. Akif Nizam says:
    July 5th, 2007 6:35 pm

    Adnan, there are so many nuggets of wisdom in your astute analysis of events that i find myself overwhelmed. I particularly enjoyed, “in US, Americans are 1st class citizens”. I’m thinking of submitting this to Reader’s Digest. Then you can be world famous.

    I also relished the one about the muslims being backward because our corrupt are not allowed to flourish by the West. It’s sad that the only bastions of muslim achievement your find are crooks like Agha Hasan Abidi & Dr. Abdul Qadeer Khan.

    It’s also refreshing to hear a Pakistani comment on the state of American morality. Let me look up the definition of morality in a Pakistani dictionary: women not covering themselves up from head to toe and having pre-marital relationships. Wow, where did that come from! I could have sworn there used to be entries like honesty, justice, tolerance, equality, charity which are clearly the hallmark of Pakistani morality.

    It’s unfortunate that arguments such as yours are typical of our societies: a complete absence of linear thinking. Just random references thrown in a hodgepodge of victimhood, paranoa & a hallucinative nostalgia of great times past.

  187. Ajnabee says:
    July 5th, 2007 7:19 pm

    [quote]Since religion is being condemned by our resident specialists[/quote]

    A true religion is not afraid of criticism…only Mullahs are. If however it bothers you so much can we convince you to stay at your rantlog? Will save a bundle of wasted ATP bandwidth.

  188. Ajnabee says:
    July 5th, 2007 7:34 pm

    [quote]Mufti Taqi Usmani has written a classic book…[/quote]


  189. Ajnabee says:
    July 5th, 2007 7:44 pm

    Just to add to my last comment, its so easy to find problem in these so called Muftis and Ulema from an Islamic point of view that it is amazing how anyone can be fooled of their “piety”.

  190. Aqil Sajjad says:
    July 5th, 2007 7:56 pm

    This has again been highjacked by shararti log on both sides.
    Need for the “saza ka maqool intizam” to be put to use!

  191. MQ says:
    July 5th, 2007 7:56 pm

    It seems our worst fears are going to come true.

    According to a Daily Times’ report Musharraf has “decided to withdraw all criminal cases filed since February against the 100 or so militants, including Lal Masjid deputy cleric Maulana Abdul Rashid Ghazi, provided they surrender.”

    If you are not going to prosecute him then what difference does it make whether he surrenders or not. What was the purpose of staging this whole show?

  192. Kruman says:
    July 5th, 2007 8:05 pm

    One way or the other , this issue will continue to dominate the headlines for weeks now. For general “puss in boots” Mush it is a win-win situation:
    1) The crisis deflects attention from APC and CJP case
    2) Mush is hailed by media in the west.
    3) This crisis can be “escalated” to provide a reason for postponing elections or imposition of emergency.

  193. Ajnabee says:
    July 5th, 2007 10:09 pm

    gala to ghoont diya ahle madrassa nain tera
    kahan say aay sada la ilaha ilalla

    - hakeem ul ummat

  194. misanthrope says:
    July 5th, 2007 11:04 pm


    I’m new to this site, but after reading your outstanding contribution to the discussion I felt I needed to perhaps make a few points:

    > Someone would have said but you didn’t try to find out that Jinnah’s mUSLIM status was offended by leftist as liberals and secularists as well and declared them a person who is NOT aware of Islam.

    This statement is obviously in code because it makes no sense in English. If anyone can provide a translation, please do.

    > May I enlighten you that one of the DEVIL was Mr.Jinnah as well who wanted to make this state an Islamic state?

    Considering that he ate pork, drank wine, married a non-ahl-e-kitab (who did not convert) and did not bring his daughter up to be a muslim, I don’t think its unreasonable to be certain that his idea of an Islamic state had nothing to do with the enforcement of religious law.

    > In India, Hindus are considered 1st class citizen so in US, Ameircnas are 1st class citizens.

    You will find, if you spend some careful time in study and research that surprisingly, Americans are in fact, the only citizens of America. As for India your claim is debatable, but who cares ? One might ask why you want Pakistan to be like India? If you admire India as a model of governance so much, please move there and apply for citizenship (2nd class).

    > as far as considering Islam “better

  195. Shiraz says:
    July 5th, 2007 11:36 pm


    Reformation in Islam is bound to happen just like it happened in Catholicism and Judism. You cannot stop it.

    You will see more versions of Islam and everyone will say that his or hers is true..

  196. July 6th, 2007 1:02 am

    yar khuda ke liay!!! people this all had absolutely nothing to do with your belief systems!!!!!!

    it was an illiterate bunch of people playing into the hands of bigger powers with vested interests. (and sadly so are you :P).
    this is not a conspiracy theory launched by bored aunties in darwing room conversations, major media personell are saying the same : look at what hamid mir had to say about the way the state media presented its ‘captive bounty’.
    plus heres what Ayaz Amir of Dawn has to say:


    lets turn our minds towards much more important issues : the CJ case!!!the flood victims!!! the APC!!!

  197. Kamran says:
    July 6th, 2007 1:17 am

    Juma prayers will be an important point to keep an eye on in terms of what happens within the Lal Masjid as well as in mosques elsewhere.

  198. July 6th, 2007 1:23 am

    @misan: Ok, i trust you are a newbie here. Most of points you made were already answered, however I would answer just two points here;

    ou will find, if you spend some careful time in study and research that surprisingly, Americans are in fact, the only citizens of America. As

    I should rather have written “Minorities” rather “Americans”, mistake at my end and I apologize for this confusion. WHat I meant to say that in most of countries,minorities are considered 2nd class citizens and “muslims” in US,UK or any non-muslim countries are not in good state. I have been reading a lot these days about complains of Indian muslims that how they are being mistreated by Majority but since I can’t blame them while Muslims are being offended by rulers of Muslim state as well.

    There is a long passage here something about Indian dramas you feel Muslims should copy, I didn’t really follow it because I’m not into Indian dramas. (Are you sure you don’t want to emigrate to India? You love their political system, you love their dramas… I think you would really like it there.)

    No, what I meant to say that Muslims should also use their skills to promote their religion. No i am also not intro indian dramabazi but ye

    You love their political system, you love their dramas… I think you would really like it there.)

    I belong to a family who migrated from India to Pakistan. Nothing wrong to praise good things of others even they are like enemies. I don’t understand this. If “Me” praising skills of a hindu director then I am being asked to leave country. If I had made statment against Indians then liberal cabals were going to call me extreemist. Bhai tum log kisi haal mey kush bhe rahatay ho? :-)

  199. July 6th, 2007 1:32 am

    @MQ, a term is used in Urdu, “Noora Kushti”. I am not aware what “Noora” means here but since it’s used for such situations, It came in my mind after reading your comment.

    mush ko election bhe larna hey, agr abhe saray cards show kardia tu uswaqt kia hoga? since lal masjid appears to be the “last card” against US. Mush would carefully use it.

  200. July 6th, 2007 1:40 am

    molvi ansar abbasi yet again:


  201. James says:
    July 6th, 2007 2:25 am

    I wonder why Aziz and, moreover, his entrenched gang of thugs, seem unmoved by their Prophet Muhammad’s injunction in the Quran that “cursed are those men that wear women’s clothing and those women that wear men’s clothing”. If they truly adhere to their insipid religiosity, surely they are duty-bound to stone Aziz to death, or some such.

  202. MB says:
    July 6th, 2007 4:52 am

    First of all my apologies to brother Adil Najam, who has been really patient to bear this a little off the topic dialogue. And others too but I left like being dragged a bit. Secondly my thanks to misanthrope for replying mostly to what I had to say. I will just pick & pint few things out.

    Fist I second to what he said, I don’t get anything in that status of Quaid para.

    Let’s move further.

    - The word “American

  203. saif says:
    July 6th, 2007 5:05 am

    ive read the some ov comments here
    but very sorry to say all v say these BURQA GALZ are bad doers, ya we can only appreciate n welcome the females like REEMA,MEERA,——-ETC, its our destine now, i appreciate(with shame) all those ones scolding the students ov JAMEA HAFSA

  204. asa says:
    July 6th, 2007 5:48 am

    The issue of LAL MUSJID is a phenomenon of many failing systems.
    1) Failure of education which has never been a priority in our country. Which one of us will send a near one to such a Madrassa for education. It is poor people who send their kids here. These Madrassas never produce a scholar, what they produce are brain washed preachers of a sect.
    2) Poverty which is a fertile land to reap for people like these to guys in Lal masjid.
    3) Misplaced priorities and poor understanding of roots of problems eg you can not stop Prostituion by arresting people. it stems from poverty so address it.
    4) failure of writ of government
    5) Using every incident for personal political gains.
    Don,t forget this Madrassa was established by a dictator for his personal gains and we will be facing many situations like this in future as a consequence of current dictatorship.

    Long live Dictator

  205. Muhesh Bhutt says:
    July 6th, 2007 5:49 am

    This is a perfect Bollywood suspense/thriller movie. Drama goes as per written script which was agreed between the actors and director until yesterday (05/07). Starting as a perfect indian movie startup with 19 people killed first day of the drama. People who died were from all kinds involved in this play , a cameramen (just to keep them away from the actual stage and let them know it is not a drama but real life), few passer-bys making sure that common men don’t get over excited on this issue like CJP. Couple of low rank rangers and few extermists/madrassah students. So the first day’s play was just as written.
    The next day everything is still as per plot , the hero/villan tries to run away in burqa , the tv channels ready to take pictures and make movie , the news goes to all the world channels , ( remember historic flee of Mullah Umar on CD 70). The villan is caught as per plan and then shown on the tv in the same burqa giving an interview.
    — Half time —
    The movie was getting bore at this time. People were already guessing the end. But that was the end which was agreed among the players. At this moment, director decides to introduce a twist in the story. The hero/villan 2 , starts noticing that few things are not happening as per script. The change in script is to get the dead bodies of hero/villan 2 along with few others of his associates. Now this twist makes the movie all the more intersting. Hero/Villan 2 is desparate to save his life but the script has changed he and his few associates must die. There is perfect suspense now in the story. Any guesses?

  206. asa says:
    July 6th, 2007 5:52 am

    1. how much government is honest with his claim that govt writ is challenged by lal masjid.
    i believe govt himself challenge the state writ several times only in last few months, Mr shujjahat rally in islamabad against chief justice and opposition when Q league gangsters carrying sticks the ones with nails on it where was the state writ on that time and 12th may what happened every one knows.
    2.now lal masjid challenge the govt writ but if you compare with US Army the one they challenge then this one is nothing how many times US army attacked in pakistan territory and killed so many innocent pakistanies including children, WHERE WAS THE GOVT WRIT ON THAT TIME ?

  207. sohail says:
    July 6th, 2007 6:28 am

    it is great effort against terrorism

    it is not jehad .
    jehad not allowed to kill any Muslim

  208. Sajid says:
    July 6th, 2007 6:29 am

    How much do we know about possible Taleban affiliations? I find it HARD to believe that these guys had no inspiration from their brethren in the north west, given their shared antipathy to Mushy’s regime. I’ve posted on this too:

  209. July 6th, 2007 6:50 am

    “cursed are those men that wear women’s clothing and those women that wear men’s clothing

  210. July 6th, 2007 6:52 am

    Indian sources report that Musharraf’s plane was attacked by a rockets.

    Dramabazi of president continues!

  211. king_faisal says:
    July 6th, 2007 6:56 am

    hypocrisy of people like ayaz amir is equally as dangerous as the stupidity of the jehadis. ayaz amir is saying that nawaz sharif, whose party ayaz amir was member of, would not have tolerated jehadis. can someone please point to me what specific steps did nawaz sharif take to tackle jehadis responsible for the following:


    “Gunmen in Pakistan have opened fire on a mosque near the central city of Multan, killing at least 14 people and wounding others.

    The attack happened just after morning prayers for the Muslim holy month of Ramadan….”

    in fact jehadi violence under nawaz sharif got so bad that even a dolt like him realised that something had to be done. days after announcing on tv that he would crackdown on sectarian violence, nawaz sharif narrowly missed getting killed by a bomb planted on the route of his motorcade. next day, nawaz sharif made peace with the jehadis. all the details are available on the net. bbc link above mentions attack on nawaz.

    as for lal masjid leaders being paper tigers and therefore not being dangerous, that same accusation can be made against all recent leaders claiming to be defenders of islam. taliban, bin laden and saddam claimed to have the ability to take on the americans and in fact egged on the americans to attack. when americans came a-calling, how did these brave leaders fight and how long did they last? these brave leaders did exactly what maulana aziz did. all these leaders headed for the hills leaving their followers to take the brunt of daisy cutters.

    after american victory, people like ayaz amir also accused the likes of bin laden, saddam, taliban, 9-11 hijackers of being american agents and conspiracy theories were created about american desire to control oil and to subjugate the islamic world. the fact that conspiracy theories find such fertile ground in the minds of our educated people is the true indication of the level of jahalath prevailing in pakistan and in the wider islamic world. change cannot happen in an environment where people refuse to accept reality.

  212. July 6th, 2007 7:04 am

    If you actually met Nawaz Sharif in person you would think how could a GOON like this be Pakistans PM TWICE, the man does not even know where he is most of the time and he will make any statement that will make himself look good and others bad.
    Do not take this goon seriously – he will inshallah never be in a position of ‘ownership’ of Pakistanis or Pakistan again!

  213. Jamshed Nazar says:
    July 6th, 2007 7:31 am

    People – It does not smell good.

    The drop scene of the Lal Masjid drama has NOT happened yet. Perhaps we were celebrating too early – couple of days ago when the Burqa clad Maulana Aziz was caught.

    To me it appears that there are hard core militants in the Lal Masjid area and it would not be a surprise to find, in addition to Lashkar Jhangwi / Jaish Mohammed fighters, that there are some Arabic speaking fighters and an Al Qaidi link is established.

    With hundreds of people including women and children holed up in the seminary, I suspect the casualties will be serious and in brutal conditions.

    This will lead to reactions from other simnaries and militant groups.

    Did anyone pickup the news about anti aircraft fire on Musharaf’s plane this morning???

    I am a bit surprised why Musharaf has left the capital for Balochistan – the stand off at Lal Masjid very much on.

    Lets hope for some good news, but to me, it looks like the situation is moving from bad to worse.


  214. Asma says:
    July 6th, 2007 7:33 am

    Six soldiers were martyred in a suicide attack on a military convoy at Chakdara near Malakand in North West Frontier Province.

    According to reports a Major, a Captain and four other soldiers were martyred in the attack on Friday.

    Security forces have cordoned off the area and investigating into the incident.
    from here

  215. TNT says:
    July 6th, 2007 8:15 am

    Some people say Govt. delayed the resolution and thats why so many innocent lives are at stake.
    Why no one is thinking about the ignorance on part of LM/JH.It is still very easy for boots to take over the compound and finish the drama.i wonder what would have NS or BB or any other politicians done in crisis like this?Media should stop giving aunty rashid anymore time to make his pov heard.cuz there is none.
    Why names like waco massacre,beslan school massacre,moscow theater massacre, are stuck in my head since yesterday.Allah Khair karray.
    what quaid wanted was a perfect state where the citizens enjoy their life according to their religious beliefs and ethnic background.And i cant think of any better system then Laws defined in The Quran and by God.

    Pakistan banNay kay baad Quaid e Azaam ke jaib main kuch khotay sikKay hee bachay thai aur yeh moulaana hazrat un main say kuch hain.

    nuf said

  216. Aqil Sajjad says:
    July 6th, 2007 9:39 am

    The two scoundrel brothers were claiming that there are no heavy weapons and foreigners at lal masjid and jama-e-qabza. People like them and their sympathizers have throughout been in outright denial about the existance of such foreigners and the involvement of madrassas in promoting terrorism, hopefully this present situation and its live coverage by the media will help take some blinkers off.

  217. faraz says:
    July 6th, 2007 10:01 am

    Well it is 4th day and now it seems like mulla will not let his human shield to leave compound.

    So two options are.

    1) Negotiate with Mullah and end this seige. After that media can interview childrens and even mullah will save his life, it( locking chidrens) will be bad reputation for their jihadis bedfellows.

    2) Use some nerve gas and using night vision glasses attack building at night. I will say atleast 50-100 ppl will die in this approach. Pictures and stories of bloodshed will cause anger in NWFP and there will be lot of fanatics attacks.

    I will prefer first approach. Our target is not this bastrad but to destroy Talibani thinking in Pakistan.

  218. jamal says:
    July 6th, 2007 10:44 am

    mullah raj is finally being tackled properly, we should kick the mullahs out of pakistan and into afghanistan or india or the sea – but thge sea will probably spit these filthy vermin out.

  219. MQ says:
    July 6th, 2007 11:15 am

    My only fear is that the Ghazi brothers will be let go lightly. They would not be put through the wringer of justice like any other suspect, and that all these Jamia-Qabzas (appropriate name, Aqil) will stay as they are.

  220. Ajnabee says:
    July 6th, 2007 1:15 pm

    Interesting pic

    (slow site takes a few minutes to download)

    I wonder how children are taking all this commotion in their neighbourhood.

  221. Ajnabee says:
    July 6th, 2007 1:17 pm
  222. Ghalib says:
    July 6th, 2007 1:54 pm

    This guys father was the friend of General Zia Ul Haq!!! and now Zia’s son is a friend if Musharaf the only difference? STAKES HAVE CHANGED! they are all useless now they are all fanatics now!!! One came created them and now ones removing them!!!
    If there had been any law in pakistan this would have never happened!Govt shamelfully tried to ignite this issue by trying to remove the mosque as its illegally built! go to islamabad see every parking is illegal and on green belts!even whole markets are illegal!!!! Rawal Lake banks has A Q Khans home!!!illegally built! but no one tells them any thing! Mualana is a product of Army,but the CDA timing wasnt right! but in the end govt should be ready to take the heat! i get amazed by people callign it RADICAL MOSQUE whats a radical mosque??? are u nuts? if they exposed chinese parlours and brothels they tried to show u all that if u call their madarasa illegal then they will strip u as well!
    All this drama right in the middle of Islamabad is staged to show the west thatw e are “at war with terrorism” where the army can terrorise and break their own oath and take over,where theres no constitution,then no one has a right to ask these people to close their stunts!either stop ur own stunts or dont expect others to do!anarchy is the biggest tool any military govt used right from ayubs and Yahyas the Zia’s and the Mush’s!!!!they didnt do a single thing in the interst of the people so that they dont turn voilent~~~the term shud be VIOLENT not terrorist as people in the world wana label u all and u becomin their tool!
    For me Maulana and Musharaf and whole nation including me are standing in the same boat,but at different ends,everyones hands are bloody! not alone the maulana!!!!!!!hes doing the same what we all are doing but ina different capacity!!!

  223. Ghalib says:
    July 6th, 2007 2:00 pm

    Jamia Qabzaz???
    i wasnt expecting a pathetic statement of this sort from u!!!
    if jamia is a qabza then call mush a qabza general and Zia a traitor and a killer of using these people in the war against the Reds!!!!
    Dont malign or name a school that teaches islam just by one that has done stunts!!!!

  224. Kruman says:
    July 6th, 2007 2:05 pm

    “Musharraf the Spark Plug”, nice article by Nauman Shah.

  225. July 6th, 2007 2:06 pm

    What a joke…this drama is twisting again:) Ghazi denied the meeting with Ulema and said he will prefer death:P

    I praised the writer of this drama who is making it intersting… People are diverted towards this drama…all issues like flood victims, judicial crises, political tea party in london are in dim light now!!!


  226. Kruman says:
    July 6th, 2007 2:10 pm

    I am afraid the brothers will be shot dead in detention. Else the secret will leak out i.e. who inspired them into this act of madness, JI, JUI or the ISI.

    With the elder mulla caught in a burqa it is clear he did not believe in his cause. So the question is then who encouraged him? Were there kickbacks involved? Was it elements in ISI who promised him immunity and thus conned him into acting foolishly. Ch Shujjat Hussain is on record saying that the govt was not interested in accepting in implementing his peace proposals.

  227. Bhindigosht says:
    July 6th, 2007 2:27 pm

    I must say that this whole thing is like an Urdu/Punjabi movie. It is a drama, comedy, thriller,suspense and tragedy all rolled into one.

  228. Adnan Siddiqi says:
    July 6th, 2007 2:39 pm

    Aqil mian, ye ghalat baat hay. Tum khud sharartain karo tu sahee aur jab dosray karay tu forun Uncle k pass shikayat laganay ponch gayee? ye tu bari bachou wali baat huwi. Kaha tha na k jab baray khud sharartoun se baaz na aye tu chotay unki izzat nai kartay per shayed samjh nahi aya. :-)

  229. July 6th, 2007 2:40 pm

    What the director/writer want to achieve from this drama:

    - distraction of public from MADRASAH which is the threat for western powers as this is only place which develop the roots of islam in people. Once you cut the roots, then you can overwhelm the subject. What a meticulous plan to get rid of Islam?

    - The subjects will get stamping from Washington that they are best and must be retained to achieve the objectives.

  230. Adnan Siddiqi says:
    July 6th, 2007 2:55 pm

    It’s time to follow the example of Turkey and ban this garment.

    for a moment I thought that Ann Coulter had joined ATP. It’s very possible since Adil bhai is very influential:-), but then I saw that it was said by our prof of Lit.

    I am just comparing Tina’s statment with point of view Ghazi brothers. They also wanted to BAN something which was not appropiate according to their point of view and was harmful for others, regardless it was really bad or not. Tina also made similar statment because accordinf to her interpetition, Niqab is not good thus it should be banned. The reason Tina was not condemned because she lives in some developed country and wear some modern outfit,enjoying lavish life etc etc while ghazis live a 3rd world country. Interesting thing is both belong to same profession as well that is teaching. It’s funny, i mean if those are ghazi brothers, should Tina now be called Tina sisters?

  231. Ajnabee says:
    July 6th, 2007 3:14 pm

    Government has asked all madrassas, details of weapons they have.


    I am sure madrassas will tell it as it is. :)

  232. SICK AND TIRED says:
    July 6th, 2007 3:39 pm

    The last many comments here (e.g., Adnan S., Independent Citizen, Kruman, Ghalib, etc.) leave me puzzled and angry. Seems like an orchestrated campaign to support and justify the Lal Masjid agenda. Sorry, just becasue you keep saying that you don’t support them when actually your posts are clearly supportins them does not county!

    The same comment keeps getting repeated again and again and again and again (e.g., Kruman, Adnan S.) about how this is a distraction and should not have been done. So, what are you saying? That these Lal Masjid thugs should have been allowed to continue their campaigns of terror, kidnapping, and extortion? If you want to support the Lal Masjid agenda, say so clearly, why this topi drama of your own? You really mean to say that this guck at the Lal Musjid should not have been cleaned?

    Yes, the Aziz brothers and their fatehr were friends fo Zia ul Haq and yes one of their leaders was a former ISI person who is now under arrest. So was Hamid Gul. Is he also now supposed to be part of the Musharraf camp? All of you guys, please spare us your maulvi propaganda, we are tired of all of your propaganda dear Adnan and Kruman and company.

    Even if it is a topi drama I am glad that it happened. I do not like Musharraf even one bit. The sooner he is thrown out the better. But I dislike the Lal Masjid agenda of Talibanization that you are all supporting even more. If a bad man (Musharraf) does the right thing (clean up Lal Masjid militancy) for the wrong reason (to distract attention) then it is still a good thing.

    Those of you who are leaving the same message every 10 minutes are only supporting the Lal Masjid agenda through repeated propaganda. I, and I think most Pakistanis, are smart enough to see through your tactics. Give us some credit, we are also smart enough to oppose two things at the same time (military and mullah), if it takes the same military that put the mullah in charge to now dismantale the mullah then I am glad they are doing it. I am much more interested in hearing that this Lal Masjid cancer has been removed and really not interested what jokers liek BB or NS say at some APC or what Musharraf says in Turbat. Pox on all their houses, I say. But first and foremost the priority must be to root out this extremism which is teh greatest threat to Islam and to Pakistan.

  233. MQ says:
    July 6th, 2007 4:08 pm


    [Quote ]MQ, Jamia Qabza??? I wasnt expecting a pathetic statement of this sort from u!!! [Unquote]

    First, I did not coin the name. Aqil Sajjad did. He deserves the credit for coining such a funnily appropriate name.

    Secondly, and this is in a lighter vein, your name being Ghalib you must be familiar with Zauq, the poet laureate in Bahadur Shah Zafar’s court and Ghalib’s contemporary and rival. Here is a couplet by him (I wish I could write it in the Urdu script):

    Zauq jo madrassay kay bigRay huay haiN mullah
    In ko maykhaanay maiN lay aao sudhar jaayaiN gay

    Perhaps, Adnan Ahmad or Ahmed2 or tina (if she understands Urdu as well as she does English)could translate it for all of us.

  234. Kruman says:
    July 6th, 2007 4:20 pm

    Sick and tired keep your pants on. I have said that the Lal Masjid mullas should be hanged for inciting violence. They are also responsible for atleast 21 deaths. Only the naive will interpret our messages as being supportive of lal masjid mullas.

    What we are saying is that intentionally (at first) or unintetionally, these mullas have played into the hands of Musharraf. They should have been crushed 3 months ago. The government let these terrorists “flourish

  235. July 6th, 2007 4:25 pm

    Auntie Mullah Alliance Murdabad!
    Pakistan Zindabad!

    For once I thought pakistan has fell to the MMA now the even our mullahs have started wearing burkhas – for an instant i was about to finish with pakistan and leave – then i realised the mullah was making a run for it after leaving brainwashed little boys and little girls to take the heat!

    Cross dresssings mullahs, mullahs on drugs, mullahs on politics – your house of cards is beginning to fall the pakistani people have awoken – and they will kick your backsides if you dare interefere again!

    Proud Pakistan!

    PS I wonder how the other mullahs of the MMA look in high heels and lipstick?

  236. Shah says:
    July 6th, 2007 5:55 pm


    Thanks for very logical and impressive posts. I would like to add a bit more to your point re “Pakistan ka matlab kia ….”; here is something for those who always proclaim that Pakistan was created in the name of Islam:


    “You are free; you are free to go to your temples, you are free to go to your mosques or to any other place of worship in this State of Pakistan. You may belong to any religion or caste or creed that has nothing to do with the business of the State.”
    “We are starting in the days where there is no discrimination, no distinction between one community and another, no discrimination between one caste or creed and another.”
    ” We are starting with this fundamental principle that we are all citizens and equal citizens of one State.”


    There’s no prize for guessing on who said it in his presidential address to the constituent assembly of Pakistan in 1947!!!!!

  237. Ghalib says:
    July 6th, 2007 7:50 pm

    Bhia i said Madrassa is an institution!!!Jamia is an institution! i dont favor Ghazi! but the ones stopping him are they worthy of stopping him? jamia Qabza coined funnily or what ever its an institution from where many orphans and the 70% people of pakistan get their education from! its our biggest unifying force! but if u analyse all the scenario of this drama u can well imagine that they cant do tht alone!!!there was backing and now that backing is gone!Else people vanish from pakistan and no body hears where they went!!!!or were they ever born! persons like Bhutto were killed is a prime example! army if wanted on day one with not a single casuality could have taken both brothers out!but the first mediator by the govt Mr Ijaz Ul Haq whose father was a deep friend of these brothers father said everythings in control and negotiated! Now u are well aware of world politics and and how it effects Pak,the CJ issue and Mushs worth!!! so this was all staged by “some ” who will never be known!!Hamood ur Rehmaan report even gt public without ant reprecssions should bell alarms in ur ears that the nation is fed up!so who ever in what ever capacity is doing what ever thinks “hes right” and no one is to stop him!the moment u stop them,coz of their fatigue they shudder!!! this drama “is a shudder” and due to a Mosque people have pounced on it oh oh oh mullah terror LOL! BUT the root causeno ones getting to!!we are trying the painkillers but leaving the appendice in place for ours and “someones” gain! so for me to malign an institution called Jamia is perpostorous!!!

    @ Tired and sick

    if ur angry then theres no difference bw u and Ghazi brothers!!! Banta singh or Danda Singh one and the same thing!!!u didnt get my point! i did not favor Ghazi bros nor i condemn them!! they are doing the same what govt is doing!!!!! so i dun even blame them!they are using humans as sheilds and govt uses “uniform” and Hafiz Peerzada as sheild! so everyones shielded!! their faces hidden but their kartoot evident!!so before commenting on these mullahs and coining names like radical and fundamentalism first think y are they doing so? just like u got angry one must analyse y are u angry than to tell “relax” coz i know u wont!!!
    Chinese massages should be banned! Brothels should be closed by whom??? by govt!not by ghazis but i am happy atleast they openned the subject!thru wrong means but still now people know! Niqab LOL i laugh when people talk abt it!!and mostly men!if women are to hide them selves the men have responsibility too!but if men arent doing it or dun wana do it it does not mean ban the niqab as well!!!use ur akal!if someone want to do it let her do it!and talkin abt ban then y crying when Ghazi says ban brothels and massage parlors?? isnt it one boat and opposite ends???
    sochnaaa! then ghuusa aya to baat hogi!!

  238. Ghalib says:
    July 6th, 2007 8:08 pm

    as u said a verse from Zauq~ a line from Ghalib and self analysis!!!
    Hua ha Shah ka musahib phire ha itt-rata
    Wagarna sher mien Ghalib~ ki AaB-ru kya ha?

    Ye masaial e tasawuff ye tera bayaan Ghalib~
    Tujhe hum wali samajhte jo na bada a khwar hota

    Ah Ghalib the magic of your words and your ways with mystics!
    You would have been a saint, if you were not addicted to drink

    and one that fits us all…
    Mien nain mana keh kuch nai Ghalib~
    Muft mien hath ay to bura kya ha

    So “this mufta” sab ko le dooba!!!! socheyy ga mere pehle do naam Mohammad Haroon and last is Ghalib:)

  239. SICK AND TIRED says:
    July 6th, 2007 9:10 pm

    Kruman, sure, if you say so. But you do realize the you legitimize teh Lal Masjid agenda by constantly questioning the action against these thugs. Yes, it may overshadow the APC or CJ trial for a few days, and sure it woould have been done way way sooner, but does that mean that you would have preferred that it should have been delayed till after the APC or CJ trial result. I hope not.

    Please do not insult me by comparing me to these Lal Masjid thugs. Yes, I am angry but I am NOT a criminal like these mullas. I do not go around killing and kidnapping people because I am angry.

  240. Aqil Sajjad says:
    July 6th, 2007 10:22 pm

    Just to get the record streight, I wasn’t the one who coined the term jama-e-qabza, I took it from a TV interview of Salman Taseer.

    One additional point:
    Most of the parents shown on TV are uneducated and belong to the poorer segments of society. Many of them come from far flung areas. How did they come to know about jama-e-qabza/Jama-e-faridia? Someone must have recommended these madrassas to them for their kids. The govt and media should investigate this angle.

    The same goes for funding.

    Those who have been helping these brothers in whatever form have played a part in this whole crisis.

  241. Musalman says:
    July 6th, 2007 10:32 pm

    Good that this is finally done. Too late. But the right thing. We need to save Islam and Muslims from these criminal mullahs. Well done.

  242. Kruman says:
    July 6th, 2007 10:59 pm

    Sick and Tired, I’ve stated my case. My position was that Lal masjid ghunda gardi should not have been allowed to fester in the first place. The ghundas in lal masjid are mere puppets, strings are getting pulled by the intelligence agencies. Do you think the GHQ will stop here? In the past they’ve given us MQM, then jihadis. They will continue to prop up ethnic terrorists and jihadis to maintain their stanglehold on Pakistan.

    To curb smuggling you don’t simply capture the small fish. You need to capture the don. To curb terrorism you hang the mulla brothers and send army back to the barracks.

    You are simply missing the big picture my friend. Anyways I am not arguing any more on this.


  243. Shah Jafri says:
    July 6th, 2007 11:19 pm

    Can some one give out the statistics on the number of army Jawans helping the flood affected people in Balochistan compared to the number of mullahs doing the same?

  244. Ibrahim says:
    July 6th, 2007 11:29 pm


    There are too many things I want to say but no time and can’t do justice to myself with whatever I write here. But, a couple of things:

    It’s time to follow the example of Turkey and ban this garment.

    Tina, is there a need to remind you and others of your many posts in favor of rights, especially women rights. However, please do explain how you decided that it is ok to take away the right of a woman to cover herself in a Muslim society?

    Your comments are too long about history proving implementation of shri’ah has always failed and resulted in poverty to quote, but is there a need (again) to remind you the time of Rasoolillah (saw) and Sahabah and generations following them?

    Shar’ia wherever it has been implemented has resulted in a series of pornographically violent punishments meted out to people for offenses that are no longer considered crimes in the West, or for very minor crimes

    “In the West”?!! At least, it is clear where you take your moral guidance. The moral conservatives in the West themselves condemn morality of their cultures let alone you trying to base your argument with the help of moral values of the West for a Muslim country.

  245. baber says:
    July 7th, 2007 1:23 am

    Ibhrahim women have their right to wear burqa if they want, even mullahs have their right to wear one if they want. Atleast the weat doesn’t force their moral values on other people. About shariat law can you quote us some historic books AFTER Sasoolullah and sahabah about shariat implementation.

  246. baber says:
    July 7th, 2007 1:25 am

    Sorry I meant Rasoolillah (saw). (spelling mistake)

  247. July 7th, 2007 1:36 am

    @sick n tired: exposing extreemisn by leftist doesnt mean justifying lal masjid point of view.

  248. Shiraz says:
    July 7th, 2007 2:04 am


    Some practices can be banned by society..just like polygamy is banned in USA.

    If women want to wear burqa..it is their choice..problem arises when you want to ENFORCE your interpretation on whole world..

    Yes, please enlighten us with what Baber said “About shariat law can you quote us some historic books AFTER Sasoolullah and sahabah about shariat implementation.”

  249. mazhar butt says:
    July 7th, 2007 2:22 am

    Ayesha Sajid

    >>>> this is a better question raised by you. The escape of Mullah Aziz could be ”strategic’ in view( recall Shivaji escaping in a flower basket? Was he a coward then?) Also recall the incident of Great Migration by the Holy Prophet. Was that cowardice? Again, remember, 90,000 Pakistani soldiers surrendering before Indian army in 1971 war and some fleeing for their lives…was that cowardice? It’s so damn easy to comment on others without knowing the ”reality” !

    Islam is ONE and ONE only. Let’s forget about Mullahs and stop taking them on our nerves. There is holy Quran for us Muslims for guidance. For further guidance one may as well refer to Ahadith. However, I must say that women in Islam do not have a leadership role;she has to follow men in matters of the world.She’s also not equal in several matters of worldly nature; infact nothting has been created ”equal” in this world….even two identical things are different. As the proverb says, when two ride a horse one has to ride behind,,,,,,,,,I think this was said about the status of women!

  250. Kruman says:
    July 7th, 2007 3:00 am

    Media Roundup, July 7

    It is interesting to note how media is catching on to this topi drama by the mulla-military productions. Sorry “Sick and Tired”.
    “Hum nay chupai lakh, par muhabbat na chup sakee”

    1) Vey good satirical column in Express, “Fake drama, real corpses.”

    2) “A Drama to Beat All Dramas,” by Ayaz Amir

    3) “Lessons from Lal Masjid” by Babar Sattar in TheNews:

  251. Ibrahim says:
    July 7th, 2007 4:24 am


    If someone is not sure about history, it’s best they don’t challenge others on such issues. One has to be illeterate about history to say please prove shariat implementation after Rasoolillah (saw) and sahabah. The whole of Ummawi (Ummayd) and most of Abbasid caliphites implemented shariat. Of course, the level of pity would have been lower than that of the time of Rasoolillah (saw) and khulfa ar-rashideen but shariat was implemented. And, that is no surprise because on the day of khutbah of Hajjatul Wida’ when the Surah al-Mai’da’s verse (part of third verse) was revealed: “This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion.”, Sayyadina Umar started crying. He was asked why are you crying, and he said “Nothing succeeds perfection but imperfection.” So, nobody expects to reach the same level as that of Rasoolillah’s (saw) time or khulfa ar-rashideen’s time. But, it remains a fact that shariat was successfully implemented by later generations.

    Pick up any Islamic history book and check it for yourself. Many smaller khilafats did so after the fall of Abbasids. Also, Salah ad-deen al-Ayubi did so and even Usman I, the founder of Usmaniyyah khilafat did so. And, of course Aurangzeb Alamgir did so as far as his power allowed him and is well known for reinstating the hadd, jizya, etc. Again, pick up any history book that covers those periods. One concise but authentic book in Urdu would be that of Moulana Shah Akbar Khan Najeebabadi’s Tareekh-e-Islam (two volumes by Maktaba Darul Andulus). Buy it or borrow it, and read it and read other books on this topic and lets then discuss this issue.

    Atleast the weat(sic) doesn’t force their moral values on other people

    Baber, if you are implying I advocate imposing shariat in non-Muslim societies, then prove it because I don’t believe in it and thus never said so. If you meant forcing their own people, then prove that still. In fact, you will find that I say don’t impose fake shariat like Taliban, etc. because that never works. Do the ground work before by changing individuals, family, societies and then shariat will implement “itself”. And, this is not my own opinion but of most of learned/sound scholars. And, again Fazlur Rahman or Ghazi brothers don’t qualify as scholars—I want to know about their ijaazats!!!

    Shiraz, so it is ok to “enforce” monogamy in the US because it seems the right thing to do, but imposing some laws in Pakistan becomes much-hated “enforcement of views on others”. If you live in the US and tomorrow you go out and campaign against the ban on polygamy and then make this argument, then maybe maybe your argument might have some weight. In fact, if I don’t know any better I say you have proved my point: Different societies ban different things that they deem “immoral” for themselves! So, don’t try to bring Pakistan soceity in line with Western societies and vice versa.

  252. Nazir says:
    July 7th, 2007 8:06 am

    [quote]If someone is not sure about history, it’s best they don’t challenge others on such issues.[/quote]

    How can one ever be sure about history unless one goes back in history and checks for himself? Even in this age of media people differ on what may have happened on say 12/5. How can you be sure of something from 1400 years? You are trying to pass your faith (in your beliefs) as knowledge about events from history. The two are different and may not necessarily match.

    [quote]One has to be illeterate about history to say please prove shariat implementation after Rasoolillah (saw) and sahabah.

    Again nothing to do with literacy or lack of, of history. It’s our agreement that whatever was brought by Rasoolullah is the system that we accept as our governing law (and call it shariat).

    Now the big question is what is it that he brought as shariat?…several dozens sects and maslaks are still pondering over the question :) … that is why implementing a uniform shariat on national level may not be a walk in the park as some Mullahs may have us beleive.

    [quote]The whole of Ummawi (Ummayd) and most of Abbasid caliphites implemented shariat. Of course, the level of pity would have been lower than that of the time of Rasoolillah (saw) and khulfa ar-rashideen but shariat was implemented.[/quote]

    Yes this is the thing ummayds and abbasaids were killing fellow Muslims and indulging in all sorts of vices but you still consider them worthy of implementing shariat. Mullahs kill fellow Muslims or use Islam to get to the power corridors (assemblies) even today and you call them ulema. This is the root problem here, you expect criminals to implement shariat for us and use them as the standard of piety. Hence the mess we are in right now. Get rid of bearded criminals if you want to make any progress towards an Islamic system.

    Note I did not say Sharait – that could be tricky. In the end a workable Islamic system will have a lot of elements form a secular system to accommodate various differences in maslak and fiqah not to mention other religions.

  253. Mubarak says:
    July 7th, 2007 8:54 am

    There is one major thing which is revealed. i.e.

    In Pakistan, there is no singular definitive or Supreme Religious authority on whom the people or the clerics could follow. Had this been the case, people like Abdul Rashid Ghazi or others would not have come up or would have surrendered to the advice of that authority. Hence lawlesness prevails in the country.

    You can clearly see how media and other people are cautious in giving statements. They can’t just say that Lal Masjid people are wrong or that this is not Jihad OR They can’t just say that Government is wrong which clearly indicates the lack of definitive supreme religious authority.

  254. Shahbaz Khan says:
    July 7th, 2007 9:30 am

    It hurts so bad to see that in the midst of all this Lal Masjid drama being staged by intelligence agencies we have all forgotten the miserable plight of the people of cyclone-affected areas where already more that 200 people have been reported dead. Diseases are beginning to break out and people have started to agitate. Why doesn’t the government understand that it is the mishandling of situations like these that gives rise to centrifugal sentiments in the people of smaller provinces.

  255. Imtiaz says:
    July 7th, 2007 11:37 am

    The criminal activities of the Lal Masjid molvis is now resulting in great human distress and inconvenience to the people living in the G6 area. They should be held responsible for the great misery they are causing not only to the people they are holding hostage inside the mosque but also the misery they are causing to those outside. These people are the enemies of Islam as well as of Muslims. I just spoke to my cousin who lives near the mosque. Before this he was at least supportive of some of the issues the Masjid people were raising. Today he was just fuming and really angry at this mullahs for the misery they have caused to everyone by their criminal activities and turning his mohalla into a war zone.

  256. Wajahat says:
    July 7th, 2007 12:40 pm

    @mazhar butt

    “Also recall the incident of Great Migration by the Holy Prophet. Was that cowardice?”

    So sad, so sad. Finally it had to come down to this. This filthy, hooligan, terrorist, murderer, epitome of hypocracy mullah is being compared with the purest of the pure.

    So sad and shocking and pure blasphemy. Please refrain from making such irreverent remarks in future. May Allah guide all of us.


    “And, again Fazlur Rahman or Ghazi brothers don’t qualify as scholars—I want to know about their ijaazats!!!”

    Ibrahim, it was nice to come across the word “ijazat” on this forum.
    Usually on forums like these, everyone seems to be, or atleast tries to portray, a scholar in his/her own right, but looks like you do have some sound knowledge of the traditional islam and the way it has been preached over the centuries.

  257. July 7th, 2007 2:14 pm

    mazhar butt

    “Also recall the incident of Great Migration by the Holy Prophet. Was that cowardice?

  258. baber says:
    July 7th, 2007 2:15 pm

    Ibhrahim bhai,

    Mughuls ruled for more then 300 years. And in this long history you only found Alamgir (the fanatic), the draconian ruler. He killed hundreds of hindus and converted them we know how, i guess. What you din’t know even he could not implement the whole of sharia because he was ruling a state with a hindu majority. Just because he re-instated Jizya doesn’t mean that sharia was implemented, sharia is not just Jizya. And in hindu majority it was smart and ecomomically beneficial to implement Jizya (which is taxing non-muslims).
    About Ummawi (Ummayd) and most of Abbasid caliphites can you refer to which books precicely has details (not concise) of them implementing shariat instead telling me to pick any book because not anybook has details.
    Actually Taliban did implement the proper shariat as taught by the Holy Prophet (P.b.u.h). Maulana Fazulur Rehman and Ghazi Brother are Alima -e- deen (Scholar of religion-maulana) whether you agree or not it does not matter.
    “Baber, if you are implying I advocate imposing shariat in non-Muslim”
    No, I mean if a muslim wants to watch Star Plus and Zee TV let him do that. Don’t crush his entertainment with blowing his TV with a bomb.
    Is Sharia Law implemented in Saudi Arabia? Is it this type of Sharia we are looking for in Pakistan?

  259. July 7th, 2007 2:21 pm

    Readers are reminded to please respect the comment policy; stay on topic; refrain from personal attacks; refrain from long, tangential and repetitive comments; and please respect other people and their rights to have contrary opinions. Please pay special attention to what this post is about and focus your comments only and directly on that.

    We really do not like putting people on the moderation list.


  260. baber says:
    July 7th, 2007 2:35 pm

    Sorry Admin I shall be carefull next time and thank you for not completely deleting my post. I respect the difference of opinion and would rather blogg where their are people with different point of views then everybody saying the same thing repeatedly.
    Thank you.

  261. Shiraz says:
    July 7th, 2007 5:10 pm

    Musharraf tells mosque
    militants “surrender or die


    I am against this ..people should not have to die ..
    are we going to see another bloodshe like US saw when Davi Koresk refused to come out ?


  262. Ibrahim says:
    July 7th, 2007 7:39 pm


    Baber, I’m not sure if you are sincere about studying the history or just trying to prove a point that I can’t back up what I’ve stated. Anyhow, I don’t want to list books to show off that I know names of books or have read them. But, since you asked for detailed book, I will list two very authentic and in-depth book on history:

    Al-Bidayah wa al-Nihayah by Imam Abul Fida ibn Kathir. [8 or more volumes depending on binding and maktab]

    Tarikh al-Rusul wa’l muluk by Imam al-Tabari [extremely voluminous >30 volumes]

    al-Bidayah wa al-Nihayah should be enough because it was written 400 or so years after al-Tabari’s tarkih but I gave both in case you say ‘you listed just one book’. There are others as well.

    Now, onus is on you to read it if you know Arabic or have parts of it translated. But, you might be able to find small parts translated in various languages.

    Yes, I was able to find “only” Aurangzeb among the Mughals. What did you expect? I will mention Akbar, may Allah give him what he deserves, who created deen-e-ilahi?! Yes, just jizya doesn’t mean shariat. But, you don’t go from nothing of shariat to just jizya. Jizya was part of shariat that implemented. I already conceded in my comments to the fact that he implemented what his power allowed him because of sizable Hindu population.

    You are quite wrong–Taliban failed to understand shariat and implemented it correctly. They have the same level of education, mindset and methodology that Ghazi brothers are showing. And, you can talk to any jayyid scholar who doesn’t come out in street and makes useless threats and slogans but has acutual knowledge and ask them if Ghazi brothers are Aaim-e-deen! I don’t want to sound arrogant or belittle you, but you are really speaking out of ignorance on this issue of they being scholars or not.

    I again say, you think they will be able to show authentic ijaazats for their knowledge? Just one ijaazat/chain? This is not the place for me to discuss all theological issues. Suggest a different forum if you want and then maybe we can discuss this.

  263. Amna Raheem says:
    July 7th, 2007 10:40 pm

    Salaams Prof Najam,

    Hope yourself and family are well, iA.

    I’ve been reading mostly on the BBC website about the standoff and as I read about the people inside, the families outside and the physical destruction of the building it brings on a sense of deep sadness — we are destroying ourselves. Not to be overly dramatic, but the fact that they have turned a masjid into a fort seems to be a poignant illustration of the polarisation within that is only going to get worse before it gets better. Once this is over, what will they destroy next?



  264. OLD TIMER says:
    July 8th, 2007 1:36 am

    I have an idea for a new ATP Opinion Poll. Which is the greater threat to Pakistan: Military government or Rise of religious extremism like in Lal Masjid? What should be the first priority for Pakistanis and which is the bigger danger to our future?

  265. July 8th, 2007 2:05 am

    Pretty lame thinking to blame lal masjid managment for the shortage of food,electricity and gas in entire mohallah. All of these things were cutt off by government not by lal masjid people. If it’s a tactic then officials could cut the supply of the single building rather torturing entire mohallah. It’s not a big thing and even layman could cut the supply of electricity,gas and water of his own home. Why was it so difficult for lal masjid and associated madarassahs? were they using some technology that they couldn’t track the main supply lines? All is being done to provoke people of certain area to come out on roads,protest,burn tires so that dictator could send message to his uncle sam that , “dekho ye horaha hay yahan, ab tapar hey tu mujhe power sey hata

  266. Naseem says:
    July 8th, 2007 5:57 am

    Asslamau Laikum all,

    This dreadful(yet incomplete) episode has shown “musalmaniat” (not a word but you know what I mean)in the most dreadful light.

    Everybody thinks that this is the standard of shariat (and why they don’t want it) and then by extension imagine it to be the same light that Rasoolillah (saw) showered upon us.

    I am feeling tearful, anxiety, sorrow and anger that WE muslims could allow Rasoolillah’s (saw) light to be mixed and seen in this manner especially by kaffur.

    After this incident is over, I would like to see the best Islamic scholars do proper research of the shariat prescribed by Rasoolillah (saw), and agree with hukamat as to how best to phase it in (over a few of years) as complimentry law of Pak.

    We all know that Rasoolillah (saw) can never be wrong…thus by extension his shariat cannot be wrong…sharit will implement itself as peoples take to it.

    Let Pak be the best shining example of the implementation of sharit…let us bow to Rasoolillah (saw) and beg forgivness that it took us so over 60 years before we reaslised our mistake.

    Ironically, this incident could give the best platform for shariat implementation in Pak…let’s not blow it.

  267. faraz says:
    July 8th, 2007 10:18 am

    Naseem these are Utopian dreams. Do you remember “Jang jamal(first civil war of muslims which was fought 20 years after prophet wisal).

    Only a western style liberal democracy is our best chance of progress. Muslims are always fighting with each other on name of power, true islam etc.

    Just create a liberal and just system of democracy with freedom of speech and everyone will be happy. To me thats the best system humnan civilization experienced yet.

  268. Aamir Ali says:
    July 8th, 2007 10:48 am

    Those people who call this Lal Masjid episode a “drama” and blame the govt are cowards who are fleeing the truth and seeking refuge in conspiracies and fiction.

    Such folks condemn the govt for not taking action against extremists, then condemn their govt for taking action against extremists.

  269. Aqil Sajjad says:
    July 8th, 2007 10:55 am

    The above debate on the merits and demerits of shariah is irrelevant to the lal masjid issue. People can differ on the kind of laws they want and they are entitled to their opinions. The question is how these disagreements are to be resolved?
    If I am unhappy about something, should I have the right to take up arms and challange the state or should I try to advance my cause through peaceful and democratic means? If the answer is not in black and white, then under what circumstances is militant defiance to the rit of state justifiable? That’s the main issue in case of lal masjid.

    BTW, looking at how shararti people are able to go on without any ‘saza ka maqool intizam’ being put to use suggests that the ATP comment policy should state “shararti logon kay liay sharart ka maqool intizam hai”

  270. faraz says:
    July 8th, 2007 11:00 am

    Well Aqil in my mind there is no doubt that Islam is best religion. But when it comes to a system of government, you can solve differences in a peaceful democratic way in a democracy only!

  271. baber says:
    July 8th, 2007 11:27 am

    The taliban type of government was endrossed by pakistan and saudi govt. It was acknowledged by most of the mufties in Pakistan. Even the one who live in my area gulshan-i-iqbal 13 J-1, Medina Masjid. Yes I know Arabic and appreciate recommended the books and I will read and get back to you. I don’t Pakistan can ever have all the sharaiat laws may be some that too may be under a democractic govt. These political mullahs will never get a chance to lead.

  272. Mubarak says:
    July 8th, 2007 11:42 am

    Kindly analyse all the things on reality grounds and you all would know the difference between individual opinions and what are actually the prime reasons behind this Lal Masjid crisis.

    1)During Afghan War, Zia Govt. created these “Mujahids” to fight against Russian Army with support from American CIA. The word “Jihad” and “Mujahideen” were used for the first time to justify that War to the people. And Yes, indeed Pak Army was part of it and especially ISI. The “Mujahids” were also supported by American Arms and Ammunition.

    2)As the War came to an end, These Mujahids were then diverted to “Kashmir” and Yes the Hatchery of these Mujahids were the Madrassahs whom Govt supported deliberately. Please go back to the time when there was tension b/w India and Pakistan and you will recall Musharraf saying to the West in support of the Mujahideens that they are freedom fighters and not infiltrators as India used to say.

    3)Now after easing out of tensions b/w India and Pakistan, these Mujahideens ran out of business and were left with nothing. Now you can easily understand why at the first instant there was no operation by the Govt forces against Lal Masjid etc.

    4)The other most important aspect is that after the end of Russian war these Mujahideens were abandoned by American CIA. There was a long undercover cold car b/w CIA and these Mujahideens which was only revealed to the world when ultimately bombings and other such events began to happen.

    So this is the whole story which nothing has to do with Islam or religion etc. The most easiest thing in Pakistan is to use religious emotions to take cover.

    Everybody discussing on ATP should leave alone the emotions and should analyse rationally and in light of international politics the whole story.

    This is not the end and such events are very much likely to happen in the future also.

    Pak Army and CIA were the creators of these people and now the creation is challenging the creator. Simple.

  273. baber says:
    July 8th, 2007 12:43 pm

    Taliban govt was endrossed by Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. Taliban version of Islam (sharia law) was acknowledged by most of the mufties in Pakistan. It was also acknowledged by the mufti in my town of Gulshan-i-Iqbal 13G1(Medina Masjid).

  274. osman says:
    July 8th, 2007 3:10 pm

    I was an aithiest for 10 years. I tried to find the path. Key thing is that each should try to find the truth. One must for their own sake know what constitutes shirk, kufr and nifaq so that we can avoid them. The journey to the truth is in some ways never ending, but it is also the most important thing in your life.

    In the lal masjid case The key issue is shariat.

    We get educated and have PhDs and whatever but we dont know the basics of islam anymore.

    Anyways one ayat most of us paraha likkas are not aware about..

    Surah Al Maidah verse 44

    Those who do not Judge by Allahs revelations, they are the kafiroon.

    imam hussain challenged the writ of the government. He was besieged by them. He and his companions were deprived of water, he fought back and was killed. All the muslims in the country sat by and applauded.

    That was then. This is now. Musharraf and his new Yazidi army is at its best.

    To not challenge the writ of a non sharia goverment is the dangerous. To accept a non sharia system as valid is kufr. You go ask any alim in pakistan in priviate and they will agree. But few have the courage to say it openly. Go ask alims in other countries.

    Find out in detail what the above mentioned ayat is about. What is kufr and shirk according to your school and other schools and how does it apply to our government and the lal masjid crowd.

  275. Nazir says:
    July 8th, 2007 3:24 pm

    Its the deobandi connection. “Maulana” Fazlul Rehman is deobandi, so are taliban and jamia banuria and so is lal masjid – ghazi bradran’s father was a graduate of jamia banuria. Vast majority of Pakistanis however are moderate brelvis. It’s hardly worth mentioning that dobandis were against the creation of Pakistan by and large.

  276. faraz says:
    July 8th, 2007 8:06 pm

    Nazir we all are muslims. Please dont start a fight between deobandis and brelivis. We are already divided.

  277. Nazir says:
    July 8th, 2007 8:15 pm

    Fraz, what I have said are the facts. Want to keep ignoring the real reason…your choice. Every person and group is responsible for what they do and should be held accountable for that.

  278. Nazir says:
    July 8th, 2007 8:18 pm

    PS: Nothing to do with differences in malsak but to the fact that they have caused the extremism which is responsible for both taliban, and lal masjid type situations. There are just too many things that they are involved in. This can not be ignored.

  279. Kruman says:
    July 8th, 2007 10:37 pm

    Author of Military Inc, Dr Ayesha Siddiqa’s article in Daily Times, “Musharraf has to go”.

    Also discusses lal masjid.


  280. Ehtesham says:
    July 8th, 2007 10:42 pm

    This was always a no-win situation is is now becoming worse for everyone. The early goodwill that the govt had gained by tackling this well and with great great to avoid bloodshed is waning because the issue is dragging on and is not brought to closure yet. On the other hand the religious extremists in Lal Masjid and elsewhere are being exposed. Specialy here in Islamabad there is full disgust for the Madrassahs and Lal Masjid for the pain that they have brought on everyones daily life. People cannot even get needs of life because of these cursed maulvis. We have been used to the encroachments of the madrassahs all over the city but now people are getting tired. I just hope that the govt does not mess this up and this can come to close with less blood.

  281. Kruman says:
    July 8th, 2007 10:43 pm


    Government trapped lbw by Hamid Mir’s reverse swing.

    - Police had captured the people supplying arms to Lal Masjid. Upon “orders” these arms suppliers were let go.
    - Ijazul Haq confided in Hamid Mir that powers wanted earlier nogotiations to fail.

    A must read!

  282. faraz says:
    July 8th, 2007 10:56 pm

    Kruman, Why you dint accept the reality that these radicals are much more strong then you and me think.

    Three chinnese and many coprs have been killed in retaliation in NWFP in last few days. Is that all drama?

  283. Ibrahim says:
    July 9th, 2007 1:30 am


    MashaAllah, it will take dedicated months to read up the books or even one of the book. Read the part of history you asked about and then get back to me if you like. Baber, you think Pakistani governemt is religious? Supporting Taliban for both Pak. and Saudi was more of a political move rather than a religious one. Support for Taliban from part of Pakistan ulema was also maslaki himiyyah or even lack of knowledge about exactly how Taliban were carrying out the rules for some. I’m telling you I have heard scholars saying what I said about Taliban. You yourself hit the nail on the head: They are “political molvis”, not actual ulema.

    Its the deobandi connection. “Maulana

  284. Ibrahim says:
    July 9th, 2007 1:34 am


    Just to clarify: By saying “They are ‘moderate’ because they are ambivalent about Islam” I didn’t mean if you are not ambivalent, then you will act up. SubhanAllah, no way!

  285. Salman says:
    July 9th, 2007 4:46 am

    This situation is lingering on. People will get tired and will revolt. The govt should end it now.

  286. Kruman says:
    July 9th, 2007 12:24 pm

    you may be right. these radicals have been created and armed by the pak army and ISI. therefore i dont underestimate threir power to help a corrupt military regime by spreading anarchy.

    The situation will linger on till the SC verdict.

  287. Kruman says:
    July 9th, 2007 3:50 pm

    faraz, the colonial recipe was, divide and conquer. Dictators follow the same recipe.

    Usurpers and dictators create crisis and anarchy to strenghten themselves. Amidst the chaos and the anarchy they try to create an order to justify their stay in power.

  288. chief sahib says:
    July 9th, 2007 5:59 pm

    People around the world are wondering why the Muslims who come out in force protesting at the smallest insult are content to sit quietly at home while their own women and children are being held hostage in the name of religion. If all this isn’t defamation of the religion, i don’t know what is. I guess we can kill our women and children for Izzat but won’t even raise our voices to protest against those who threaten them so openly and that too in a mosque.
    Read this somewhere and it is apt to todays world
    “when will the muslims realize that Islam will not be judged by its dictated values but by the actions of its followers”
    For once my head is bowed in shame.

  289. Athar says:
    July 9th, 2007 6:07 pm

    This is what lal masjid had been doing for a while…how have they been getting away with this for so long?

    Part1: http://www.vidpk.com/view_video.php?viewkey=46cb5436a10798e657d9

    Part2: http://www.vidpk.com/view_video.php?viewkey=28e489b44e954ec0b9bc

  290. Najeera says:
    July 9th, 2007 7:28 pm

    If recent news is correct then they will get away with it one more time. There is a deal in progress as we speak. Gosh, Pakistan sure is a heaven for Mullahs. They can get away with murder..literally…even of an army officer. I suppose that is why we made Pakistan so we can save our self from being killed by a Hindu only to be killed by a Mullah.

    If only Mullahs had known how good Pakistan would be for them, they would have been the biggest supporters of Pakistan, instead of opposing it.

  291. Najeera says:
    July 9th, 2007 8:03 pm

    OK, apparently deal fell through and final battle is on its way as we speak.

  292. July 9th, 2007 8:04 pm


    The operation seems to have finally started and this is reaching its conclusion….

  293. Najeera says:
    July 9th, 2007 8:16 pm

    I hope Mullah Ghazi is killed in action. It would be a shame if public funding is spent on his trial. Public has suffered enough in his hands.

  294. Viqar Minai says:
    July 9th, 2007 8:45 pm

    I think the govt has grabbed defeat from the jaws of victory.

  295. July 9th, 2007 9:04 pm
  296. Akif Nizam says:
    July 9th, 2007 9:37 pm

    I’m sitting here watching this thing unfold on Geo; it’s just a shame, a huge black mark in the history of Pakistan. It’s insane watching Ghazi on the phone with his mother dying in his arms and he is reciting what he believes is his last message to the world. No matter what your views are on this matter, it’s a human tragedy nonetheless.

  297. Bhindigosht says:
    July 9th, 2007 9:44 pm

    the images on TV are unbelievable. I hope Ghazi is captured alive, otherwise he will be celebrated as a martyr. We are finally seeing the natural culmination (culmination I hope) of what Zia started 25 years ago.

  298. auk says:
    July 9th, 2007 9:48 pm

    To all the Pacifists on Geo and elsewhere, these guys deserve to die like this. It is also a message to all others out there, be it the tribal area or else. They will be killed like this or worse, if they decide to challenge the law of the land, or decide to take the law in their hands.

  299. Kruman says:
    July 9th, 2007 10:39 pm

    It is a colossal human tragedy!

    My heart goes out to the orphans trapped as hostages in Lal Masjid who are caught in the crossfire. Red masjid will turn red today with the blood of these orphans, and the fauji jawans when there was only one man to apprehend/kill, Ghazi Abdul Rashid.

    There will be no winners in this battle.

  300. Ikram says:
    July 9th, 2007 11:01 pm

    Prof. Najam, good article in this morning’s The News.

  301. baber says:
    July 10th, 2007 12:08 am

    AUK and Najeera I think you both have military background or some in military cause their so difference between you people and the mullahs. They want blood you guys want blood.

  302. Rafiq says:
    July 10th, 2007 1:21 am

    If news reports are correct then the loss of life is relatively small.Govt has handled this very well and very carefully.

  303. auk says:
    July 10th, 2007 1:38 am

    Baber, you are wrong. I believe in what Allah said in Sura Maeda,

    “if anyone slew a person, unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land, it would be as if he slew the whole of mankind. And if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of a whole people”.

    I believe in saving lives. I also believe in stopping those who are spreading mischief, be it a Maulvi in Islamabad, a thug in London, or anyone with a contorted sense of self-righteousness. That said, I am also against all those liberals who can only view the world through their opaque glasses and can’t seem to differentiate between right and wrong.

  304. Kruman says:
    July 10th, 2007 2:16 am

    So I guess the SC hearing is cancelled today.

  305. Abrar says:
    July 10th, 2007 2:27 am

    I have a tears in my eyes not for these loss but for my helplessness as I can’t do any thing to save all this. We all are muslims and we are taking the life of our own brother and sisters. Its all awful. May Allah give us courange and right path to act on. Pray for all our muslim brothers and sisters.

  306. Imran Khan says:
    July 10th, 2007 2:39 am

    Dear All, Whatever happend its wrong, basically i am from India, but first Muslim, we agree that the Lal Masjid Peple have done wrong but at the last moment government have done wrong. officially 40 killed (who are the 40) may be more than that. When Maulana Ghazi was ready four agreement even he was ready to release hostages suddenly what happend.

    Its very bad decision by Musharraf its compltly politics, i am consequently watching PTV the correspondent & Government hided many facts.

    Now Pakistan will be no longer Islamic Republic uits going on same Turkish culture.

    We agree that Musharraf has done very good Job for Pakistan but here he has done great mistake and for future they have to suffered.


  307. Muhammad Asif says:
    July 10th, 2007 5:34 am

    All that happend is topi Drama. Only common man is suffering from this situation and parents of misguided students

  308. Humayyun says:
    July 10th, 2007 6:52 am

    I am disappointed that Mullah Ghazi, the root cause of all this mayhem and killing of all those innocent people from both sides, hasn’t himself been killed so far. I suspect he will be captured alive and then given a pardon after a whiel under pressure from or deal with “ulema”.

    I am however intrigued that the elder brother who was a proper maulana by training actually preferred to be a deserter instead of taking stand for his beliefs while younger one who was maulana only in beard and had a secular background initially, actually stood up to his cause however wrong it may be. Seems to me professional maulanas have it in their blood to be hypocrites.

  309. Akif Nizam says:
    July 10th, 2007 10:27 am

    The News is now reporting that Ghazi is dead. They also included a brief biography on him as how he was once a well-adjusted “westernized” youth who was constantly reprimanded by his father for his ill ways. He finally “saw the light” when his father was killed by a lone gunman.

  310. Kruman says:
    July 10th, 2007 10:41 am

    Pakistan’s iron fist is to the US’s liking
    By Syed Saleem Shahzad

    KARACHI – A last-minute intervention by Pakistani President General Pervez Musharraf ended nine hours of negotiations seeking a peaceful end to the siege of the radical Lal Masjid (Red Mosque) in Islamabad.

    Apparently saying he was “heavily under duress from his allies”, the president in the early hours of Tuesday instead ordered in the military to end the seven-day saga. Unconfirmed reports even say that Musharraf personally led the assault, along with Corps Commander Rawalpindi Lieutenant-General Tariq Majid. The media were barred from the mosque’s immediate vicinity.

    Read on at:

  311. Kruman says:
    July 10th, 2007 11:23 am

    Difference Between a Civilian PM & a Military Ruler

    In 1998 a civilian PM, Mian Nawaz Sharif, said to US President Clinton that I am under public pressure to carry out nuclear tests after India had done the same. Today a military ruler told his cabinet that I am under duress from my western allies to end negotiations for a peaceful settlement to the Lal Masjid crisis.

    This is something to deeply ponder about.

    Read the inside story of the lal masjid operation at:

  312. baber says:
    July 10th, 2007 11:25 am

    Auk happy now. See with your opaque glasses more then 400 had just because you were right and they were wrong. There is no difference between people like you and BUSH, he also thinks he is fighting a just war. Congratualtion my conservative brothers and to your stupid army. Go pray some sukrahnah nafils.

  313. baber says:
    July 10th, 2007 11:28 am

    more then 400 dead.

    Why would we care those who died were not related to us?
    But they were Pakistani.
    This army has killed more of its own citizens then enemies.

  314. Kruman says:
    July 10th, 2007 11:31 am

    The next episode has already begun in Batkhaila, North West Frontier Province, where the pro-Taliban Tehrik-i-Nifaz-i-Shariat-i-Moham has clashed with the military and seized all highways in the area, including on the Silk Road leading to China.

    It is only a matter of time before the US-led “war on terror” formally crosses the Pakistani border.


  315. Tanya says:
    July 10th, 2007 3:37 pm

    One thing is clear now as the news comes out. This was not a drama of any sort. The govt mismanaged this be delaying it for so long. But in general did a god job of the operation and in minimizing casualty. The fact of the matter is that there were so many thousands in the compound and most of them were saved alive and only the most militant ones died. So, it would be better if no one died but credit to govt for keeping death toll low.

  316. Farhan says:
    July 12th, 2007 3:14 am

    The official codename of the military action was not “operation silence”. It was “operation sunrise”. Apparently the phrase “operation silence” was coined by somebody else and picked up by the media. Details are at:

  317. July 15th, 2007 1:54 am

    I would like to bring onething infront all muslims….”is this what Islam teaches…to kill ur own muslim brothers?”…i live in england and i really feel sometimes bad for muslims. why v r not united? we r killing eachother-one muslim killing the another..wt is this…Dont create such situation where all the non muslims makr fun of us…we r fighting on what things. we r against our own leader and our army. we dont realise that we sleep sound coz we knw that our soldiers protecting us ,they r guarding our borders…we we get against army then mark my words they will never have the Jazba to protect us civilians.
    please love ur country , love ur religion and stop these Suicide bomb attacks…Islam never teaches to kill innocent people….please be united coz remember one is one and 2 makes 11…..stop criticising the governments, and west…peep into ur ownselves wt r you doing…wt image u r creating of muslims…v r not terrorists but wt we are showing to the world is different…wt we say and wt we do…is different…
    please love pakistan ..dont destroy ur country for the sake of few fanatics .

  318. Waseem says:
    July 15th, 2007 3:56 am

    Govt has to this. Anarchy cannot be allowed. Where pen fails gun must take over.

  319. mazhar butt says:
    July 16th, 2007 9:42 am

    when in Rome do as the Romans do
    When in Pakistan don’t ask for Shariah
    Just toe the line of the rulers
    Do not protest
    Talk ill about anything everything
    But not the Army
    Army is our protector
    Army is our savior
    Army is our Rescuer
    It rids us from problems
    From our wishes
    from our aspirations
    from our freedom
    from our desires
    from our principles
    And ultimately from malaise
    So rampant in the
    Islamic Republic Of Pakistan
    where the constitution
    stipulates Islam as its religion
    But if You demand Islamic system
    Or the enforcement of Quranic teachings
    You’ve had it
    As did the poor Red Mosque folks
    Indiscriminately massacred
    by our own folks
    by our own brave army
    who hardly won a battle
    with the enemies
    across our borders !
    may God bless us all
    Let’s pledge not to
    Demand enforcement of Islamic laws
    lest we plan to suffer the same fate
    as the Jihadis at the red Mosque

  320. Abid Ullah says:
    July 18th, 2007 3:50 pm

    govt ne belkol zulam kia hain our ham inshaallah is zulam ka badla zaror lenge. hamare chote shaheed kar dia gaya.

  321. July 19th, 2007 1:59 am

    butt sb, who wrote this?

  322. July 19th, 2007 6:08 am

    these scum are no-jihadis they are takiris, to them all are kafirs worthy of death – only they themselves true are muslims…

    this mullahism we need to declare jihad against and wipe out from pakistan, you see before your eyes what these takfiri mullahs are doing killing and maiming pakistanis – trying to split pakistanis trying to destroy our freindships with nations like china – they have no benefit for pakistan except harm -

    i say its time we called a spade a spade and we fight them and defeat them – if not we may as well give up on pakistan!

  323. farah says:
    July 19th, 2007 6:36 am

    i myself along with most of the pakistani nation can garenteedly say that Mr. Musharaf and all his fellow men are carnivores…(animal that kill other animal as his serving)
    killing muslim brother was the worst deed ever in the history.
    May Allah set us free from thiscriminal leader.

  324. July 19th, 2007 7:31 pm

    may allah guide us all as human beings to fight the evil mullah and send these vermin to hell

  325. fahad says:
    July 20th, 2007 8:19 am

    asalam o alikum..the lal masjid saga,since the time it kicked off has brought the secular and liberalistic thoughts,ideologies,views and opinions of the our pakistani folks to the forefront. our heart bleeds when we feel ourselves at odds at coming to terms with the must trumpeted opinion and view that democracy and the filthy principles of ‘enlightened moderation’ should be endorsed by the common pakistani.being a true believer(a momin) we alll should counter and forthright reject these views in their entirety .people need to understand that it is a quranic injunction to uphold the noblest and the fundamental prinple of ‘amar bil maarruf wa nahi anal-munkar’ (exhortation towards good deeds and forbid evil practices) and lend it a practical existence which was indeed the characteristic virtue of the era of ‘khulafa -e-rashideen’. criminal negligence towards it will have severe moral and physical repercussions on the whole social fabric of an islamic society.
    it is the indispensable responsibility of the islamic state,which we unfortunately do not have in existence anywhere in the 57 islamic countries, but notwithstanding the fact that it is also the responsibility of every invidual muslim to curb such immoral practices such as gambling,brothels,bribery,intermingling of sexes,alcooholic bars etc.

    but islamic law dictates that individuals taking on the instituions of amar bil maruf nahi anal munkar must fulfil the pre-requisites which,unfortunately our lal masjid brothers failed to do.no denying the fact that their demands completely correct.

    we muslims are going through an age where the islamic tenets and norms are under rigorous threats from the jewish lobbies back in the corridors of powers in the US and they have deployed proponents and advocatees of ‘enlightened moderation’ to root out the fundamental concept of ‘deen’ and impart a partial impression of islam i.e.only worship

    for how long will we continue to offer our routine prayers,charity and alms-giving and durood shareef while immorality and vices continue to flourish under the garb of enlightened moderation and secularism?.was this the purpose of appointment of Prophet Muhammad(PBUH)?.

    we all need to think over this and converge on a single platform i.e. quran and sunnah and subsequently strive and struggle for the global domination and ascendacy of islam: the true deen ,the deen-ul-haq (as quran calls it), THE JUST SOCIAL ORDER instead of the NEW WORLD ORDER

    asalam o alikum.

  326. Intesar Ahmad says:
    July 21st, 2007 8:31 am

    This story provides new “angles of thinking” to remaning Mosques in Pakistan

  327. Intesar Ahmad says:
    July 21st, 2007 9:00 am

    Government take good step against these Molvies.Quaid-e Azam Said that” We learn from history that we dont learn from history” ..so we known that these Molvies were created dificulties against Quaid-eAzam.They are enemies of Paistan,who want to make Pakistan second Afganistan.

  328. mazhar butt says:
    July 21st, 2007 9:11 am

    o sad and shocking and pure blasphemy. Please refrain from making such irreverent remarks in future. May Allah guide all of us.


    Some of my friends here have been upset with my comparison of an event to Sunnah,,,,,,I can only regret their narrow mindedness and intolerance toward s others. They are not better than the renegade Mullah ,,,,,,,,,in their mental approach !

  329. KAWA1 says:
    July 22nd, 2007 1:54 am


    For our tinpots (Corps Commanders) to make such a big deal out of lal Masjid mullah qabza on the library, it is interesting to read below how the very same mujahids play this game;

    Shoot the messenger

    By Ardeshir Cowasjee

    SURVEYING President General Pervez Musharraf’s chosen chief minister of Sindh, Arbab Rahim, takes one back to the old days of Paul Muni and Scarface, and Sidney Greenstreet and Guttman — those sinister master players on the silver screen. If Arbab does not like a law, he tries to change it, irrespective of whether it is right or not, possible or not possible.

    This applies, inter alia, to the manner in which an upcoming commercial high-rise project on Karachi’s Wall Street, the now diligently dug up and impassible I I Chundrigar Road, is being orchestrated by the largest industrial empire of our country, ‘Milbus’ — to use the word coined by Ayesha Siddiqa to refer to “military capital used for the personal benefit of the military fraternity

  330. July 23rd, 2007 2:09 am

    This was in Today’s Jang:


    orignal link:

    Now when after reading this if I call secularism a branch of aethism then people like MQ gets irked as they feel that I am calling spade a shovel or getting emotional while I just state facts. Offcourse only muslims would get emotional by reading this rather some other community.

    You guys would also read that seculars got defeated in a secular country(Turkey). Now instead of implementing in Pakistan, seculars should worry about their vatican and try to save secularism there first then worry about Pakistan.

  331. Waheed says:
    August 4th, 2007 8:19 am

    No terrorist should be spared. Anyone who abducts civilians and kills law enforcement officials deserves to be dealt with stringently. Musharaf has given a clear message that no madrassa wil be allowed to get out of its bound and use force. If he had not done so every madrassa in the country would have followed lal masjid example.


  332. KAWA1 says:
    August 11th, 2007 4:25 pm

    I agree, nobody should be above the law, may it be maulvi’s (using brute force), MQM (massacre of may 12th in Karachi) or the Army (abducting Pakistani citizens without bringing them to trial and selling them at $10,000 a head for GITMO).

    When justice is not equal, this will result.

  333. Mansoor Alam says:
    August 23rd, 2007 8:01 am

    There is nothing bad about taking aggressive steps agianst people who are bent on destabilizing the the country.what we don’t like is the idea of doing so under external pressure.

  334. October 4th, 2007 5:42 am

    Please vote for the future of Pakistan,


    Be loyal to your country.


  335. saba tahir says:
    October 5th, 2007 8:03 am

    mulana was not runing out of the masjid /he was going out for meeting with a leader at his will.the future will show what was right and what is wrong.our nation is advancing towards a deadly detrioration.we have to stop it.the blood ,tears and prayers of innocent mujahids will not go astray.the mujahids which arose just to stop the flood of immodesty

  336. November 21st, 2007 9:51 am

    Although its sad but right step has been taken.

  337. Imran Ashraf says:
    December 13th, 2007 5:56 pm

    The crime of the lal masjid waleh was no more tha to extinguish immorality and vice in a country full of Muslims. History shows that Shariah implementation is something the non-mulims and rebels (murtads) will never tolerate.
    The fasiqs need the maulanas for their birth, nikah and funeral times but disregard them when they want to committ zina, drink alcohol, etc.
    The saddest for Pakistan – when muslim life is taken and no-one has the courage to speak the truth against the evil dictatorship regime.
    In Allah we trust and He will do justice.

  338. Akif Nizam says:
    January 10th, 2008 11:02 am

    I think it’s clear as H2O now that Lal Masjid was the defining moment of the current crisis. As promised by the mullahs, suicide bombings have come to the shores of Pakistan, so much so that they don’t even elicit a response or a comment on ATP (as yesterday’s bombing in Lahore didn’t); it’s just a part of Pakistaniat now. Islam before Pakistan; millat before country; welcome to the Un-united States of Islam…..or Ummah, as some call it !

  339. zagi says:
    January 15th, 2008 3:36 pm

    I just watched a movie about Lal masjid from jamat-e-Islami web site but it gives me totaly different view that Ghazi brothers were innocent and all these deaths are just ploted. I think as it is a islamic jamat so they won’t give false information so what is true is Jamat-e-Islami or what we know through other media including this post.


  340. naeem nawaz says:
    February 4th, 2008 2:29 am


  341. February 5th, 2008 8:08 am

    the operation againt Lal Masjid was very cruel act
    people who say that there is no room for peoples like those in lal masjid must think that what was the motive for the creation fo Pakistan? Why 600 thousnads people sacrifies? Why muslims left india sacrfycing their business, wealth, property and even their beloved ones?
    the reason was that they need a place for the writ of ALLAH not hte touts of American and Britian. and the peoples from Lal Masjid were trying for hte writ of ALLAH.
    Think for that Day when all of us, have to answere before ALLAH. when ALLAH will asked us what u have done for Lal Masjid?
    Also what was the guilt of Quran and Masjid called the daugher of Bait-ul-Allah?

    February 25th, 2008 6:37 am


  343. zaheer says:
    March 19th, 2008 3:39 pm

    Its the revenge of nature, Q league has no place to hide. Soon u ll see Musharaf ll also be treated as his allies like Shujaat. ijaz ul haq , sheikh rasheed etc. May God save us from musharraf(Bush2)

  344. zafar says:
    April 30th, 2008 12:00 pm

    I think the steps taken by then Govt. against Lal Masjid were right and justified, rather late.As far as spread of vice or imorality is concerned ,there are lesser violent means of doing so.What chaos will result if everyone starts implementing something that he or she believes violently?

  345. July 16th, 2008 5:10 am

    So sad! it is tyranity and cruelity.

  346. konpal says:
    October 9th, 2008 10:06 am

    I know i am late in responding to this issue but pardon my emotional quips if i raise a question as to WHAT WERE MEN DOING IN JAMIA HAFSA (SUPPOSEDLY FOR WOMEN) AND THAT THEY WERE ARMED IN THE LAL MOSQUE AND THE JAMIA. What has arms got to do with religious education? unless ofcourse it wasnt religious at all just a flimsy cover up. In that case Maulvi Abdul Rashid is a bigger COWARD than I thought, wonder where he got a BURQA to fit his protounding belly

  347. ISMAIL says:
    May 3rd, 2009 9:34 am

    There were more than 6000 female students in jamia hafsa & for their protection one need to deploy armed security personnels, so its natural that in a city like islamabad which is full of bruthels and call girl centers and so many places like that, the most sacred females who were learning the teachings of Quran & Hadiath, one need to secure tham from out side world as this was a big responsability of those who were managing the madrissa of Jamia Hafsa.

    we are ashamed to you my sisters ………………..
    we are ashamed being residents of islamabad…………..

    we are ashamed to all shaheed brothers & Sisters………….

    we are ashamed of doing nothing for your safety………….

    we are ashamed being very coward nation………………….

    The Curse of Lal Masjid Tragedy would chase us all
    our life …………………………………………………………………

    ” Ya – Allah Humain Muaaf Kar de”
    ” Ya – Allah un Shaheedon ko Jannat main jagah de”

    ” Ameen”

    Muhammad Ismail

  348. Sheraz Iqbal says:
    July 7th, 2009 8:23 am

    These are the days that I was waiting. Now the all of those ministers who are responsible of this shame full incident. On a GEO T.V. program

  349. Saleem says:
    July 14th, 2009 4:02 am

    The language used by Mr. Sheraz Iqbal is not in a good taste. The thinking of these people are so rigid and extreme that even they cant say a word against the Maulvies brothers. Had they used a positive attitude and only concentrated on the studies of Islam this could not be happened. This is a lesson for all other Maddaras that they should only concentrate and strict on the studies and not indulge in power politics.

  350. Yousuf Khan Wazir says:
    July 17th, 2009 9:23 am

    Musharraf government attacked Lal Masjid on orders of USA and China. Musharraf shld have invited prominent Islamic leaders like Imam-e-Kaaba Sheikh Shuraim , and Qazi Hussain Ahmed , Mufti Taqi Usmani , to negotiate with Maulana Ghazi so as to bring about a peaceful surrender. Till this day I cannot understand why it was necessary to kill innocent ppl studying in the Madrassah. This is shameful becoz Musharraf chose the wrong stand – he chose to stand up for prostitutes and call gorls. Of course he is a hero for our religious minorities who always feel threatened by Sunni extremists of this sort , but I find this totally shamelful.

  351. Ahmad says:
    July 27th, 2009 3:23 pm

    The militants and the students were given days of warning to move out of Lal Masjid and surrender. There was no other option for the government then to kill the militants and clear the masjid of anti islamic elements. these militants always exlpoit Islam to get authority and money from different parties. Let us save Pakistan from people who use Islam as a pretext to pick up arms.They do not represent Islam. What if you start kidnapping people and keep hostages in your house and fire upon police in a bid to ask them to enforce Islam. You know what your fate going to be.

  352. Salam says:
    August 9th, 2009 6:20 am

    I just know one thing that if Lal Masjid Administration were wrong and the way they want to implement Islamic Sharia in Pakistan was not good. Then would you please tell me that after that or before this operation, who tried for Islamic Sharia?
    Certainly nobody wants Islamic Sharia. Because?
    This is not possible for any body
    1. To live without listening songs.
    2. To live without watching TV, because photos and videos are not allowed in Islamic Sharia.
    3. To live without giving and taking bribery.
    4. To live without seeing ladies & girls in bazaar, Islam is against this to go out side in bazaar and see ladies & girls.
    5. To live without going to bazaar without veil. Maximum ladies say that this is our right to go every where without veil. Islam is saying them not to go alone and without veil out side. They are fighting with Allah.
    6. We are not giving Zakaat,
    7. We are not offering prayers 5 times a day.
    8. We are not doing justice in Pakistan and we want that Allah help us in our every problem.

    There are many things which we shouldn

  353. Shakeel says:
    October 3rd, 2009 8:16 pm

    To Salam:

    I see the point you are making. It is full of emotions but emotions is good sometimes :)

    I, for one, do not beleive that something needs or should be forced onto somebody else. Let me explain: if someone wants to listen to music, then we shouldnt stop him/her. At the end of the day, even during the days of our Prophet (PBUH), there were people who were living according to what He taught and many went against it. Been like this since.

    I know that I would prefer to see Pakistan not taking the same route as the Western world for example where it’s too open. I like modesty. However, if people want that in Pakistan, then let them. Islam is not about forcing any ideas.

    Also, people that ‘preach’ Religion are often the guilty party – they are uneducated, biased, make up things so you beleive their group only, will twist the Holy Books to benefit them, they will mistreat women and disrespect them, they are dirty also .. all kind of things. So the people that are meant to ‘represent’ our Faith are messed up, why worry about others?

    If you want a society that is following the Islamic teachings, then start from the Madrassahs, not from people’s homes.

    Also, what I dont understand from these so called madrassahs going good citizens: if someone says something bad abt Islam, you will be on the streets protesting (like that has ever changed anything! wake up!) but when will I see people protesting about the injustice our kids suffer? Or women for that matter? What about how dirty our cities are? I thought being clean is achieving half of our Deen .. so what’s up with that?

    I am frustrated. I am a Muslim and going for Hajj next month. I want to become a good Muslim and beleive my faith because I have studied it and convinced by it. However, these guys like in the Lal Masjid need to stop calling themsevles Muslims. It is insulting me and majority of 1.3 billions Muslims. Islam is abt peace not fighting. They have ruined our nation :(

  354. December 14th, 2009 6:56 am

    The Taliban and Al-Qaeda have lost hold of their organizations and now they using media to damage control like the video launched by Adam Gadgahn in which he completely looks so confused and stammers a few times. We should praise the Army for a magnificent operation.

  355. December 14th, 2009 7:06 am

    The militants groups hide their killings of hundreds by saying this is a war against Non-Muslims. Then their leaders release videos that this is un-Islamic Bombings. They contradict in their own groups showing the wrong path that they are on.

  356. Hira Mir says:
    December 17th, 2009 7:19 am

    @shakeel. I don’t think you can relate the muslims of today with Islam. The Islam that the religious leader are teaching to these young minds is asking them to blow up and kill civilians. I don’t think that is justified. What your take on this?

  357. Harrinder says:
    August 23rd, 2010 9:56 pm

    As an Indian, I do wish to express my sorrow at all the terrible things that are happening in Pakistan. But I also want to say that you should not feel so hard on yourself. In many ways I am impressed by the discussions here and the honesty with which tough topics are discussed and the activism to make things better. We in India massacred people in Gujrat and then went and elected the killers even as they proudly said they were killers. And no one spoke up in India the way you are all speaking up. Every day there are women committing suicide and minorities being mocked and mistreated in India but we have been trained to keep in our ‘place’ with a token high office here or there. I am not saying things are better in Pakistan, they are bad in both places. But at least you in Pakistan speak up and discuss your problems. We in India just sugar coat our genocides and they become time bombs ticking away.

  358. June 30th, 2011 2:48 am

    it was the worst day of the history of Pakistan and the worst thing that could happen to Pakistan as well

  359. Pakistani says:
    October 11th, 2011 1:30 am

    We need a SILENT operation and raid these “legal” brothels being operated in our Islamic Republic. Almost every Guest House and Massage place is a brothel being supported by our administration and police. This is a growing business and is not being highlighted as a growing problem. Pakistan ka mutlab kiya

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