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Laathi Raj: Jamia Hafsa’s Offensive on a Divided Society

Posted on March 29, 2007
Filed Under >Adil Najam, Law & Justice, Politics, Religion, Society, Women
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Adil Najam

The pictures coming out of Islamabad are not good. Not good at all.

Jamia Hafsa-brothel caseJamia Hafsa-brothel caseJamia Hafsa-brothel caseJamia Hafsa-brothel case

Here is yet more evidence – as if we needed more evidence – of a society at war with itself. The hostage-taking by women students from Jamia Hafsa in Islamabad of the residents of a house that they allege is a brothel is not just another act of vigilantism and a breakdown of governance; it is also a manifestation of a nation divided against itself. Coming at a time when the legitimacy of the government is at its lowest after the recent fiasco of the Chief Justice’s removal, the powers in Islamabad seem to have little ability and even less stomach to address the criminality of this act given their own recent actions.

What we are seeing now are the signs of a society without direction, a state without control, a government without legitimacy.The result seems to be laathi raaj; quite literally. If one believes that the violent and coerced imposition of any one view – conservative or liberal; secular or religious – is wrong, then one has to reject all laathis. One has to be as opposed and as appalled at the laathis (sticks) being wielded by the burqa-clad women on Jamia Hafsa as one was a few weeks ago to the laathis wielded by the police at lawyers and media offices a few weeks ago.One assumes that readers of this blog are well aware of the events not just of yesterday but of the last many weeks. If you are not, this video newsreel from BBC gives some background.

To view another perspective, here is a video that seems to have been made by/at Jamia Hafsa itself and presents the views of women leaders from within Jamia Hafsa.

The coverage of major Pakistani newspapers of the story is itself indicative of a divided society, of divided sensibilities, and of divided priorities. Here, for example, is the headline and excerpts from Dawn:

Madressah force on the offensive in Islamabad: Move to impose Talibanisation; three women kidnapped

Signs of Talibanisation appeared quite evident on Wednesday in the heart of the federal capital when hard-line religious leaders and hundreds of men and women activists from the local madressahs challenged the writ of the government for the second time by trying to force their brand of Islamic justice in Islamabad. They first took hostage three women from a house near their stronghold of Lal Masjid for allegedly running a brothel and later forcibly detained two security personnel in protest against detention of their four supporters, two of them women teachers of Madressah Hafsa. The madressah students, mainly women, had been taking rounds of the nearby markets for a few days, threatening video and music shop owners to close down their business. In some way, they had been encouraged by the soft pedalling by the government on their earlier action of occupying a children’s library two months back, which still remained in their control.

The three women were apparently kidnapped two days ago, but the situation took the form of a confrontation on Wednesday when the authorities detained four madressah people on the charge of threatening video-shop owners. The madressah students reacted violently, and within no time two police vans were attacked and two security officials taken hostage. Later, the ulema and local administration reached an agreement under which Qamar Abbas of Islamabad police and Hammad of Punjab police were released with their official vehicles. In return, the two women teachers and two other activists were released by the police. However, the three kidnapped women were still stated to be in the custody of the students of the madressah and negotiations were under way for their release.

Headline and excerpts from the story in Islamabad-based The News:

Police give in to Jamia Hafsa students

Female students of Jamia Hafsa seminary, backed by male students of other Madrassas, prevailed on the Islamabad police after a daylong showdown here on Wednesday. The trouble started when the seminary students and teachers, supported by their patrons in Lal Masjid, decided to take the ‘community correction role’Â? in their hands and kidnapped an old woman, her young daughter and daughter-in-law on Tuesday night blaming them for ‘immoral activities’Â? in the area. The Islamabad police and the district administration started negotiations with the Lal Masjid management to get the three women released. However, the students as well as their patrons refused to cooperate with the authorities. In a ‘tit-for-tat’Â? move the police picked up two female teachers and as many drivers of the Jamia Hafsa seminary who were busy threatening the shopkeepers selling video and audio CDs in a local market at 9.30am on Wednesday. The teachers were identified as Tasleem Bibi and Saeeda Bibi while the drivers were identified as Muhammad Ayub and Zabta Khan.

This complicated the situation as the male and female students retaliated by kidnapping two police officials and confiscating two official police vehicles â€?one belonging to the Punjab police and the other to the Islamabad police at 12.30 pm on Wednesday. The male students belonging to different Madrassas blocked roads to protest the police action. The Islamabad police high-ups, it was reliably learnt, ordered the Station House Officer (SHO) of the Aabpara police station to take action and get the policemen.â€? Constable Kaamal Abbas (Islamabad police) and Hamad Raza (Punjab police) released from the custody of the students who had taken the men and vehicles inside Jamia Hafsa. However, the SHO showed reluctance because he did not have enough force to deal with any untoward situation. Subsequently the SHO was suspended, it was learnt. It was also learnt that the government came under immense pressure from unknown quarters that the federal interior secretary, in a top-level meeting, ordered release of the teachers and drivers ‘unconditionally’Â? expecting the Jamia Hafsa administration would reciprocate the ‘peace gesture’Â?. The Islamabad police released the two female teachers and the drivers who had been taken into custody for creating disturbances in a busy city market. The detainees were released from the Aabpara police station around 7.30pm. The seminary students released the two police constables, along with their vehicles at 9.30pm, who were kidnapped earlier in the day. However, the three women, who were kidnapped by the students of different Madrassas of Islamabad on Tuesday night from a thickly populated locality of sector G-6/1, were still not released.

Finally, headline and excerpts from The Nation:

Jamia Hafsa students raid brothel; Government gets cops released after accepting demands

Students of Lal Masjid and Jamia Hafsa challenged the writ of the government by making hostage two police constables and three alleged prostitutes and brought the government down to its knees by getting released the Jamia’s teachers arrested by the police here Wednesday. However, behind-the-scene lengthy dialogue between the Lal Masjid administration and the government authorities led to the release of the two teachers, their driver and a servant, and the police cops along with their vehicles. Ghazi Abdul Rasheed, Vice Principal of the Jamia, while talking to the media claimed that the three women had been captured for running a prostitution den and would not be released until and unless they renounce their “illegitimate business” or they would be punished under the Islamic laws…

Ghazi also announced that the operation against the brothel houses would continue and in this regard the Lal Masjid administration had established a complaint cell. Ghazi had earlier declared at a press conference that the hostages would not be released until the authorities did not free the detained teachers of Jamia Hafsa and Khalid Khwaja, a human rights activist. Ghazi said that according to the agreement between the authorities and Lal Masjid, Khalid Khawaja and remaining five students of Lal Masjid would be released within next 15 days. He also said that the captured women would be handed over to the authorities only after they were assured registration of a case against them. Ghazi told the media that the girl students of Jamia Hafsa, had launched a campaign against obscenity and video shops in the city. He said one of the owners of a video shop informed the students that Aunti Shamim was running a brothel in the G-6 Sector. According to him, the girl students went to the house of Shamim to advise her to stop this illegitimate business, however, she shouted at them and used abusive language. During investigation, some of the locals also complained about her illegal business…

Meanwhile, the residents of Sector G-6, near to Lal Masjid, also conducted a press conference in the premises of the mosque and demanded of the authorities concerned to take stern action against the accused Aunti Shamim for allegedly running a brothel here in the federal Capital. The residents of the area have also formed a community Federation to resolve issues as ownership rights are with the government. President of the Federation, Chaudhry Shaukat and the federation member, Asif Jamal, flanked by a number of inhabitants were present in a crowded press conference along with Vice Principal of the Jamia Hafsa, Maulana Abdul Rashid. They accused Aunti Shamim for running the brothel in the locality and added that they had complained so many times to the authorities concerned over the increasing unethical activities in the locality but the authorities concerned did not take any action as she was influential. They justified the action taken by female students of the Jamia Hafsa who on Tuesday night raided the residence of the accused and taken her hostage in Jamia Hafsa along with her daughter and daughter-in-law. It is a good action taken by the female students,the authorities concerned possibly could not takeÂ?, said Ch Shaukat.

While we have only given selected passages from the three stories, we urge readers to follow the links given to read the three stories in full, and to also read Urdu newspapers. What you will see is that it is not only the headlines that show the societal divisions but also what each story choses to cover, and how.

208 Comments on “Laathi Raj: Jamia Hafsa’s Offensive on a Divided Society”

  1. Saad says:
    March 29th, 2007 1:36 am

    Lets see if the Gov. of Pakistan is capable enough to put these ‘people’ under house arrest and if required baton charge and fire tear gas at them.

  2. March 29th, 2007 1:51 am

    So what is your point? when you say:


    we have only given selected passages from the three stories

    then why are you just creatig anoter controvery by reporting an incomplete news? Adil Sahab I was not expecting such a irresponsible attitude from a learned man like you. very depressing.

    If you are against taking laws in hand by individual then I must agree with you but if you are against why these girls started a campaign in area against porn videos[Ref: tinyurl.com/yqt7y4] and against aunty shamim who is involved in prostitution then I must surprise at you.

    If you read todays Jang then these girls were also supported by residents of areas and they were NOT aware of Aunty Shamim unless they went to video salers who asked them to do something against Aunty Shamim first who is running “business” along with her daughter and bahoo. The aunty is so powerful that she even slapped the SHO once when he came at her home to arrest her.

    THe question could be raised why those students decided to take actions or violated the law? When who doesnt violate law here? when dictator himself played with law then every one else can plus they are against a good cause and I am sure neither Adil najam nor anyone would like that their kids become victim of porn stuff and prostitution campaign by people like Aunty Shamim. In karachi security agencies “officially” have taken laws in hands and we karachiites are forced to hire security guards in each mohallah and we did for a “good cause”, to protect our homes. Those girls are doing same,maybe in wrong manner by kidnapping policeen but if raising voice against prostitution,porn videos is sign of extreemism,Mullahism then every Human on earth should become part of it.

  3. Daktar says:
    March 29th, 2007 2:02 am

    The comparison of the three headlines and stories is excellent.

    Very interesting how differently the three newspapers chose to tell the story so differently as you mention. For example, Dawn has ‘Talibanization’ in its headline as a description while Nation to be mostly about the version from the seminary and its leaders only.

  4. March 29th, 2007 2:03 am

    From The daily Express:

    tinyurl.com/2f3jtw

  5. PUZZLED says:
    March 29th, 2007 2:06 am

    Those who insisted on solid evidence about who burnt the Bodhi tree seem not to be interested in finding any evidence at all of whether this ‘Aunti Shameem’ was involved in prostitution or not!

    Interesting.

  6. Aqil Sajjad says:
    March 29th, 2007 2:49 am

    The government should have taken strong action against Jama-e-Hafza and lal masjid a lot earlier, in light of their other ghunda gardi.

    As for the alleged brothel, it is well-known that many brothels operate with the connivance of higher-ups. The allegation in this particular case may or may not be true, but again, the government should demand evidence and take appropriate action or exhonerate the woman in case no evidence is forthcoming.

    However, Jama-e-Hafza needs to be closed in either case and its membership put in jail.

  7. March 29th, 2007 3:06 am


    not to be interested in finding any evidence at all of whether this ‘Aunti Shameem’ was involved in prostitution or not

    tinyurl.com/37du5a
    The fedration of G-6 supported the action by Students.

    Ignorance shouldn’t be an excuse my _respected_ friend. I see Aunty shamim supporters will get “puzzled” now.

  8. USMAN says:
    March 29th, 2007 11:57 am

    PREDICTION:

    Within the next few days we will see the Madrassah people attacking newspaper and media offices in Pakistan

    Read the newspapers (at least English ones) today on this news and see why.

  9. March 29th, 2007 3:40 am


    The government should have taken strong action against Jama-e-Hafza and lal masjid a lot earlier, in light of their other ghunda gardi

    Dear Aqil, How a ghunda gard govt take action against ghunda gardi? This is something which is very confusing.

    Adil sahib, have you removed all posts regarding CJ case,beating women by police and beating kid by Police that our dearest aqil didn’t find any reference of govt’s Official Ghunda gardi? It seems that Pakistani liberals have a severe problems of short memory.

  10. PUZZLED says:
    March 29th, 2007 4:04 pm

    The commenters here never cease to amaze me.

    The MOST disturbing thing here is that people actually think that a press conference by a few people from the neighborhood accusing a woman of being a prostitute is EVIDENCE that she is!!!!

    I guess for these Madrassa-wallas slander and accusation is enough to condemn and take hostage someone sicne there will be people like commenters here who will think that is enough evidence for them.

    Amazing, a woman who is raped needs 4 eye-witnesses but to take someone hostage and condemn someone as a prostitute it only needs a couple fo people at a press conference at a Madrassah!!!!!!!

    (By that standard, I gues Gen. Musharraf has evidence against teh CJ too!!!!!!)

  11. nuqtah says:
    March 29th, 2007 4:05 am

    Humm I’m not sure if the way you present the story, is resposible journalism on your behalf…

    You conveniently missed out on commenting on this chunk of a quote:

    “Meanwhile, the residents of Sector G-6, near to Lal Masjid, also conducted a press conference in the premises of the mosque and demanded of the authorities concerned to take stern action against the accused Aunti Shamim for allegedly running a brothel here in the federal Capital. The residents of the area have also formed a community Federation to resolve issues as ownership rights are with the government. President of the Federation, Chaudhry Shaukat and the federation member, Asif Jamal, flanked by a number of inhabitants were present in a crowded press conference along with Vice Principal of the Jamia Hafsa, Maulana Abdul Rashid. They accused Aunti Shamim for running the brothel in the locality and added that they had complained so many times to the authorities concerned over the increasing unethical activities in the locality but the authorities concerned did not take any action as she was influential. They justified the action taken by female students of the Jamia Hafsa who on Tuesday night raided the residence of the accused and taken her hostage in Jamia Hafsa along with her daughter and daughter-in-law. “It is a good action taken by the female students,the authorities concerned possibly could not takeâ€

  12. kashif says:
    March 29th, 2007 4:07 am

    read the following post also on this issue. And dont forget to read Adnan Siddiqi’s discussion with another guy in the comments. I hope it will benefit everybody.

    HERE

  13. Saad says:
    March 29th, 2007 4:07 am

    [i]if raising voice against prostitution,porn videos is sign of extreemism,Mullahism then every Human on earth should become part of it[/i]

    Who raised their voice against prostitution or pornography? What I see here instead is a bunch of people with sticks in their hands, who ‘kidnapped’ the owner of the brothel.

    If Jam’ia Hafsa students meant to raise their ‘voice’ against social evils like prostitution or pornography, they’d be protesting in front of the very precinct they were so willing to burn to the ground since police was holding their teachers there.

    The hell with President Gen. Musharraf, how exactly are these students any better when they are taking law in to their own hands? They are no different from Gen. Musharraf when it comes to making a mockery of the law of the land.

  14. mahi says:
    March 29th, 2007 5:27 am

    “Meanwhile, the residents of Sector G-6, near to Lal Masjid, also conducted a press conference in the premises of the mosque and demanded of the authorities concerned to take stern action against the accused Aunti…”

    With this level of citizen involvement, moral uprightness and courage, this will soon be Land of the PURE :)

    I can’t believe there are blog readers that countenance this regressive business! I’m worried.

  15. Saad says:
    March 29th, 2007 5:42 am

    No one, in their right mind can condone what that lady Shamim was up to. But exactly what right do these students have to take application of the law of the land on to themselves?

    Let there be more examples of this and be damned with the law of the land. If it’s a jungle people of Pakistan seek, so should they get.

  16. Asad says:
    March 29th, 2007 5:46 am

    Yet again we see that our nation understands nothing but the “danda”. I strongly ask the government to get commandos involved in releasing the hostage women and forcefully close down the madrassa if the students there keep challenging the law. This might seem rash, but students who take things into hands in such a manner deserve nothing less.

    Now protest on this comment all you want. But remember, nothing in our country works better than the “danda” in getting the people to follow the law. ITP did that by being strict and imposing heavy fines and we see a [positive] world of difference being made.

  17. Jabir Khan says:
    March 29th, 2007 6:37 am

    Yes Mr. Asad, they should be dealt with dandaa. And how about holding up law and order for all?

    Some time back, the nephew of a provincial minister murdered a 12 year old boy in model town Lahore. The minister and his chimps were harassing girls and only fault of this kid was he tried to stop them. The minister’s nephew shot him right there. He was the only son of his parents and his father was so afraid that he didn’t even report to incident to police. Some journalists got the hang of this incident and tried to help him but the murderer was immediately sent abroad. No justice till today.

    So clearly there are two laws for citizens in Paskistan. One for rich and one for poor. Did you cried out in the same manner or like now? Looks like you only support the preservation of law when it is broken by the poor?

  18. Jabir Khan says:
    March 29th, 2007 6:39 am

    there is a typing mistake, the fourth line reads the minister’s nephew not minister himself.

    where is the edit button?

  19. Disciple says:
    March 29th, 2007 6:44 am

    “I strongly ask the government to get commandos”

    But these are the government commandos…can anyone else do anything like this in Islamabad?

    Unelected dictators like Musharraf need undemocratic people like these for support.

    This also works for western governments in that Mullahs are the greatest blessing western governments could have and here are the reasons;

    a) These people are by and large opposed to contemporary education and progress in general. This keeps Muslim societies backward and weak compared to the western societies.

    b) They keep creating law and order situations from time to time thus effecting the progress in of Muslim countries even further.

    c) Western governments can show these images to their own public to get them to agree to pretty much anything. Whether its budget for overseas wars or draconian anti-civil liberties laws or whatever else…

    So both Musharraf and US wouldn’t be too keen to get rid of these Mullahs…any time soon.

  20. jayjay says:
    March 29th, 2007 6:54 am

    Administartion’s ineptness has unleashed a monster which now cannot be overcome without a bloodshed. Unless a Hama-like action is taken to eliminate Islamic militacy from the capital, Islamabad will soon turn into the Kandahar until Mullah Omer. Act now, Musharraf, or nothing will stop a complete Talibanization of Pakistan.

  21. Saad says:
    March 29th, 2007 7:02 am

    LOL! Let Gen. Musharraf take care of his presidency and the CJ first.

  22. Disciple says:
    March 29th, 2007 7:12 am

    کھاریاں آرمی ٹریننگ سنٹر پر خودکش حملÛ

  23. Jabir Khan says:
    March 29th, 2007 7:12 am

    Disciple you carreid out a good analyses. The timing of the incident rasises big question. Looks like another strategy by the govt to divert the attention of the people. But it just might backfire. This inept govt is not capable of thinking straight anymore.

    I think even west feels they have been milked enough by the present regime. They are not very keen on keeping musharraf. Some senators in washington said they need other telephone numbers as well, just in case.

  24. Disciple says:
    March 29th, 2007 7:14 am

    مقامی صحاÙ

  25. March 29th, 2007 7:46 am

    The action taken by the students of the “JAMIA” (If only we know the real meaning of it) was sad I must say… but looking at people arguing in their favour is real heart breaking… are we this il-literate now… and for the same people there is a hadith saying you shall abide by the law of the land, is this what these kids are doing… and if thats right, we are in the hands of Witch-Doctors let me tell you.
    I can bet if even 20% of these care-takers of Islam ever read Quran with Translation and know the meaning of what it says… Except for a selected part of it, that is used to brainwash these childern.

  26. Fatima says:
    March 30th, 2007 11:31 am

    Dear brothers and sisters,

    I am really very worried by what I am reading here. In our religion accusation is a very serious charge and Allah Subhanataala is very clear that those who make false accusations without prescribed evidence are to be punished. Allah says in al-Quran:

    “And those who accuse chaste women, and produce not four witnesses, flog them with eighty stripes, and reject their testimony forever.” (An-Nur:4)

    I do not know what went on there but to prove their accusation they will need four eye witnesses. These women from Jamia Hafsa are not the true face of Islam and they and those who are making accusations without proper evidence and without having witnessed themselves are blackening the name of Islam. To my dear Muslim brothers and sisters, please don’t let these women from Jamia Hafsa highlack our deen. People who know their maslak know why they are doing this.

    jazakAllahkhair

    wasalam

  27. Jabir Khan says:
    March 29th, 2007 9:09 am

    Nobody is endorsing what jamia kids are doing. I will repeat again there are separate laws for rich and poor in the country. Make them equal and all the problems will vanish.

    Also you have brought this under the light of what Islam says about the matter. You are partially right. What these kids are doing is wrong. But kindly PROVE that Quran endorses the brothels in an Islamic State. Thanking you in advance.

    This selective judgment is infact what breaks the heart.

  28. Aqil Sajjad says:
    March 29th, 2007 9:16 am

    It is hard to overlook the contrast between the govt’s tactics against the peacefully protesting lawyers (lathi charge etc) and the continued tolerance for Jama Hafza despite their open gunda gardi.
    Where is the lathi when it’s needed?

  29. Bhindigosht says:
    March 29th, 2007 9:20 am

    “I am sure neither Adil najam nor anyone would like that their kids become victim of porn stuff and prostitution campaign by people like Aunty Shamim”.

    I am sorry Adnan, I just don’t get your logic. So what is to stop these niqabi hooligans from wielding the danda on you tomorrow because you are wearing jeans. Where does this stop? For God’s sake, wake up and get your head out of that “Islamic” sand.

  30. Saad says:
    March 29th, 2007 9:21 am

    Exactly my sentiments Aqil, and that’s why I tend to agree with what Disciple said here.

  31. Bhindigosht says:
    March 29th, 2007 9:27 am

    Also, please note that our two Top Guns are out of the country as usual. One is in Saudia sucking up to the Arabs, and the other is as usual doing some investment junket somewhere with the usual flunkies.

  32. Pervaiz Munir Alvi says:
    March 29th, 2007 9:30 am

    In a nutshell:

    Is it right to run a brothel in a residential area? No.

    Is it right for authorities not to listen to the complains of the residents? No.

    Is it right for any group of individuals to attack and kidnap and keep hostage other citizens? No.

    Does the military government has stomach to take on the religious extremists? No.

    Is this Mobocracy? Yes.

    Is the next stop Theocracy? Any body’s guess.

  33. nuqtah says:
    March 29th, 2007 9:38 am

    Oh my goodness,

    You guys are pretty shallow with your analysis. Needless to say, but Im not surprised, since all of you are product of “socialization” and “indoctrination” of the system.

    Would you people claim the same thing, let’s assume on a much much more larger level, about Bolshevik revolution (as an example)????!!! Of course not.

    The fact of the matter is that the author of this Post (adil najim) alludes to the break down of “Law and Order” in society. Now that’s a pretty heavy and rather sensationalist statement to make. However, since the author himself has used it, I will use it as the ‘reference point’.

    If this premise, which the AUTHOR himself indicates, is used then it is only CONSEQUENTIAL and NATURAL for something like this to happen. When Law and Order in ANY society breaks down, the people of that society take Law into their hands. You may ask why? Although I’ve already indicated it, it is because the INSTITUTION and INFRASTRUCTURE has broken down…

    …infact no real change and/or revolution is possible with OUT a certain degree of anarchy.

    And one more thing, is it only me or that everyone ALWAYS find a reason to smear ISlam and those who profess islam? Sometimes it’s oppression of women at other times the same women are painted as vigilantes? Ironic, isn’t it?

    You guys should atleast be true to yourselves and stop using dual standards, and yeah grow up. World isn’t the way you think it is, and NO a religious person isn’t always wrong.

    ciao.

  34. Akif Nizam says:
    March 29th, 2007 9:40 am

    The defenders of the Jamia (again) show an utter lack of perspective. Yes, we understand that there are double standards in our society, as there are in about a hundred other societies. Here we are not talking about the oppressed taking the law into their own hands and striking against the powerful. That I would understand and (secretly) support to some extent. We are talking about a mob here, which at the exhort of their leader, carried out acts of kidnapping, vandalism and violence. Again, that’s not unusual in our society either. What’s different is that this group owns up to these acts, vows to continue it, vows to disregard the law and most importantly vows to apply their own standards to the lives of others.

  35. nuqtah says:
    March 29th, 2007 9:40 am

    In a nutshell:

    Is it right to run a brothel in a residential area? No.

    Is it right for authorities not to listen to the complains of the residents? No.

    Is it right for any group of individuals to attack and kidnap and keep hostage other citizens? No.

    Does the military government has stomach to take on the religious extremists? No.

    Is this Mobocracy? Yes.

    Is the next stop Theocracy? Any body’s guess

    ^^^^^^^^^^

    ANother perfect example of ‘indoctirnation’, remember indoctrination isnt always religious. And the very fact that vague terms are being used goes out to show how much of a valid arguement this is.

  36. Akif Nizam says:
    March 29th, 2007 9:45 am

    This is on the BBC Front Page
    “A woman dragged from her home and accused by female religious students in Pakistan of running a brothel has reportedly been released unharmed.
    Two other women also seized by students from an Islamabad madrassa were also freed, a BBC correspondent says. Two police were also freed earlier.

    Before her release, the alleged brothel owner read a statement confessing she had committed immoral acts.

    Girls from the Jamia Hafsa madrassa say they have won a victory over liberals.”

    Reminds me of the female British sailor who was forced to wear hijab and read a prepared statement by the Iranis yesterday. The mullahs love making videos.

  37. nuqtah says:
    March 29th, 2007 9:47 am

    The defenders of the Jamia (again) show an utter lack of perspective. Yes, we understand that there are double standards in our society, as there are in about a hundred other societies. Here we are not talking about the oppressed taking the law into their own hands and striking against the powerful. That I would understand and (secretly) support to some extent. We are talking about a mob here, which at the exhort of their leader, carried out acts of kidnapping, vandalism and violence. Again, that’s not unusual in our society either. What’s different is that this group owns up to these acts, vows to continue it, vows to disregard the law and most importantly vows to apply their own standards to the lives of others

    ^^^^ read what adil najim says: “breakdown of governance; it is also a manifestation of a nation divided against itself.”

    Adil Najim is clearly alluding to an “anarchy-like” situation. That actually implies that institution of Law has to some extent broken down. Do you know what happens when such happens? A certain degree of lawlessness and anarchy prevails. Do you know what happens when anarchy prevails? People take law into their OWN hands. It doesnt matter who they are be it Jamia Hafsa or Harvard.

    And when that happens, vigilantism is an inevitable consequence. So, using the premise of mr. adil najim’s arguement the Logical progression of events necessitates ONLY and ONLY ONE RESULT: consequential result. If this is the case, Jamia Hafsa should not be blamed for their actions because consequences dictated such acts.

  38. Pervaiz Munir Alvi says:
    March 29th, 2007 9:47 am

    jayjay wrote on Mar 29th, 2007 at 6:54 am

    “Unless action is taken to eliminate Islamic militacy from the capital, Islamabad will soon turn into the Kandahar… Mullah Omer…..nothing will stop a complete Talibanization of Pakistan.”

    Here we go again. The spin masters. What is next? The mantra “Pakistan is a failed state…Pakistan is a failed state”. Babar was right. You guys are so ugly.

  39. Musalmaan says:
    March 30th, 2007 8:48 pm

    Why is everyone defending a brothel against your Muslim sisters. What does that say about you?

  40. Baji says:
    March 30th, 2007 10:29 am

    I had asked Abdullah Sahib earlier, but maybe the other learned people like Adnan Sahib or Nuqtah sahib or sahiba or someone can answer now since Abdullah Sahib is avoiding:

    “You have just accused a 65 year old woman (Shamim) who, I assume you have never met, of being a prostitute. That is a very very serious charge. Specially in our society. How do YOU know she is and how easily you make this great accusation. Just because someone who has a grudge against her said so in a press conference? Is that all the proof you need?

    What is the Islamic punishment about making accusations like this on someone?”

    Maybe people have personal knowledge of this, but otherwise why is the accusation from Hafsa being accepted without any need for proof? Just because someone held a press conference, or because as Abdulah sahib says ““zaban-e- khalq ko Naqqar-e-khuda samjhoâ€

  41. Jabir Khan says:
    March 29th, 2007 10:04 am

    Here is a suggestion. Why not move all the brothels next door to Islmophobics?

    The ‘enlightened’ folks will have the ‘gloden chance’ of protecting the rights of whores. And the ordinary citizens who are in distress because of these brothels in their area will be relieved.

    It’s a win win situation folks. What do you say?

  42. Saad says:
    March 29th, 2007 10:11 am

    Nah! That wouldn’t work because it’s hard to move these sort of people around.

    Instead all Pakistanis should from now on take it on to themselves to ‘kidnap’ those who run these brothels along with their families, act as the judge and the jury and sentence them to life in their private jails.

    The hell with courts, law, constitution and proper ways to protest. May be this new law of the jungle is what will bring peace and prosperity to this land of ours.

  43. A.H. says:
    March 30th, 2007 8:12 pm

    I agree with people earlier who say all laws should be followed. this includes: (A) removal of any brothels, sex shops, mujra places, etc., (B) removal of all illegal structures including madrassas, and (C) immediate action against all kidnappers involved in this incident.

  44. Baji says:
    March 30th, 2007 2:37 am

    Dear Abdullah Sahib

    You have just accused a 65 year old woman (Shamim) who, I assume you have never met, of being a prostitute. That is a very very serious charge. Specially in our society. How do YOU know she is and how easily you make this great accusation. Just because someone who has a grudge against her said so in a press conference? Is that all the proof you need?

    What is the Islamic punishment about making accusations like this on someone?

  45. Abdullah says:
    March 29th, 2007 11:52 pm

    If people did not believe the Jamia girls when they said this was a brothel, why are they so ready to believe Aunty Shamim when she says she was mistreated. Sounds hypocricy.

  46. Saad says:
    March 29th, 2007 10:21 am

    And please, there is nothing Islamophobic in suggesting that people should not take the law into their own hands. If you can’t win an argument, do not resort to label people. It only shows the lack of words on your part.

  47. faheem says:
    March 29th, 2007 11:22 pm

    So, I was reading the newspapers about this incident and reading the statements and just realized that the Principal of this Hafsa Madrassa for women is a man. Isnt that wrong. What about the whole mahram thing?

  48. Saima says:
    March 29th, 2007 11:08 pm

    So turns out that they forced the woman who they had kidnapped to ‘confess’ that she was a prostitute, beat her up, and stole from her! Way to go! I guess they were right, something is terribly wrong with teh morals of some women. See report in News

    http://thenews.jang.com.pk/top_story_detail.asp?Id=6827

  49. March 29th, 2007 11:25 am

    Only author and Allah knows what message he wanted to give by reporting an Incomplete story.IMO, The real issue is taking law in hands by few individuals which is not good at all.

    Few years back the people of my mohallah went thru worst time when it was found out that a group of thieves is regular to harras residents of my area on gun point and steal stuff. The proper and legal way is to complaint police, it was done but police took no action,how could they when they are partners in crime. What people decided to guard the mohalla themselves and then one day few guys were caught rand handed by young chaps of mohalla. They beat those “chors” like hell. Now why those guys were forced to take law in hands? because the system already got failed to protect them and hence they had no choice other than take the law in their own hands.

    Now I ask the learned members of this forum who claim to hold degree of PHDs and masters from well-known universatities of world, what step should be taken if something “evil” going in an area when the police system failed to provide protection against a group? Do they have some sensible solution without taking law in hands? When the system is failed then who has to provide shelter? “Someone” has to come up to take action against such evil. whether initiative taken religious by Hafsa students or seculars activists. I ask why liberals didn’t come forward to stop such evil act? Do they want to give message that such acts are part of their liberalism?

    The aunty shamim case is not different than guys of karachi who took law in their own hands. They had no other choice. The people of mohalla were not happy[Referrence already given] and had submited complaints to police but no action were taken. The “Auqaat” of police was nothing but a slap by aunty to SHO. Now either people keep suffering which is the lowest level of humanity or fight against it.

    Many people here condemn the acts by aunty. If someone here gives fatwa says that AUnty’s business is legitimate then better he doesn’t pretend and comes out with louder voice.

    I don’t understand why our liberals protesting here? Are they just surprised why some “burqa clad” women are out on road and doing all this? looks unusual though but then say thanks to your liberal dictator musharraf who imposed WPB in this state. For such people, WPB was just proposed for liberal women or women who wear jeans and skirt and no one else can “take advantage” of the law. As someone above said that this we are people of hypocrite society and we don’t want to give rights to those whom we despise.

    Whether its jamia case or GEO, it just reflects that there is nothing like “LAW” in Pakistan and people are now taking law in their own hands by following their own ruler. How could you convince such people when their ruler set a worst example of violating law? In UK, Tony blair is questioned by ordinary policemen while in Pakistan a CJ is less worthy than that ordinary policeman of UK and he’s suspended due to his bold steps against the “evils” of society.

    It’s yet another sad demonstration by majority of learned forum members who failed once again to point out the real issue that is “failure of law” in Pakistan and they once against started wasting their energy in irrelevent matters. It would be good for them if they give mature solutions and condemn the failure of law otherwise there is no need to become yet another live example of what quran said in Baqrah:

    Deaf, dumb, blind, therefore they have no sense.(Quran 2.171 )

  50. Omar R. Quraishi says:
    March 29th, 2007 11:47 am

    adnan siddiqi wrote: “I don’t understand why our liberals protesting here? Are they just surprised why some “burqa cladâ€

  51. Disciple says:
    March 29th, 2007 11:51 am
  52. Akif Nizam says:
    March 29th, 2007 12:20 pm

    Adnan, the situation that you related to about the thieves in your muhallah is quite different from the one at hand here. That’s a case of vigilantism where people come together to address a problem that afflicts them. The supposed problems that Jamia is addressing (and let’s not make it about the alleged brothel case only) does not pertain to them. They are making this decision on the behalf of the rest of us. Is there any evidence that this was a brothel? Is there any evidence that the community had complained to the authorities about this facility and their complaints had gone unheard? Did the community then approach the Jamia to help them solve this problem on behalf of the law? My guess is that none of the above is true.

    I would be more open to their tactics if they had a properly outlined process for receiving complaints, investigating them, working with the authorities first and as a last resort, turn to force and that too only to enforce the law, not to mete out punishments.

  53. nuqtah says:
    March 29th, 2007 12:41 pm

    Never at ONCE did I mention the word “islamphobic” read my posts again, oh our enlightened impartial brothers.

    Anyways, what you guys are saying is the moste ridiculous rhetoric Ive heard in a long time, even college kids can argue better. Don’t get me wrong here, I have no issue with anyone holding ANY opinion. Although I do take an issue with how you guys are imposing your views and your tone.

    Do you guys have any idea about “THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT in AMERICA”? If you think what these women did was breaking the Law or taking the Law into their hands, then civil rights movement would seem like a criminal historical blunder to you pseudo-intellectual lot.

    Oh and do you know how the vietnam war was opposed by the Americans in their home country?

    Or better do you guys have an ounce of justice when dealing with history???

    It seems not. In your warped understanding you guys seem to persistently overlook the context of things and go on with your own little agendas.

    It is a historical fact that whenever people tried to change a “SOCIAL situation” and failed to do so through all PROPER means, they were left with no means BUT coercion. As Malcolm X said “By any means necessary”…oh wait I don’t think you guys even know who Malcolm X is.

    You know what’s even more ridiculous? You guys can’t even accept a divergent opinion, let alone discuss it. ANd you purport yourselves as rational thinkers?! That’s beyond me man! the phenomenon of “group think” seems rampant here (if you don’t know what group think is, look it up).

  54. Bhindigosht says:
    March 29th, 2007 12:45 pm

    I agree with Akif Nizami. The point is that there should be due process. What has transpired has made the Jamia Hafsa crew accuser, judge,jury and executioner- all rolled into one.
    Omar, I hope that the media gives a fair hearing to the women who were kidnapped, as well. We are hearing far too much of just one side of the story i.e. the Lal Masjid crowd.

  55. March 29th, 2007 12:47 pm

    I must say that the cause/intent of the action are quite justified, but the means were not appropriate.
    for those who are bashing bruqa-clad women for taking laws in their hand, they should first consider aunty-shamim’s act.Running a brothel is also equally against the law, and corrective measures against such elements should not be criticized. I would regard this event as self-correcting steps of the society in absence of the law.
    Though such actions should not be encouraged, but we should appreciate the intent behind the action.

  56. nuqtah says:
    March 29th, 2007 12:57 pm

    Atlast some one who makes sense ^^!!

    Btw, I wonder if people cared to read the whole story? The situation had building up for last two months or so, due the demolition of 7 masajid in Islamabad, which was considered sacrilegous, and that helped to inflame the situation.

    PLUS they had the support of the locals, so who the hell are the commentors on this blog to pass a self-righteous verdict on their actions?!

  57. March 29th, 2007 12:58 pm


    Adnan, the situation that you related to about the thieves in your muhallah is quite different from the one at hand here

    No it’s not, both took law in hands as last resort after complaints. I Gave few links of todays paper. I give them again

    tinyurl.com/37du5a


    let’s not make it about the alleged brothel case only

    Stick to the topic and discuss about the “current” action only rather diverting the discussion to yet another antiMullah thread. You can make your points about their further actions on relevent topics.

    does not pertain to them

    Yes as I said they shouldn’t have taken law in hands but when people of law keepers are not doing then who else will do it?

    They are making this decision on the behalf of the rest of us

    Is there any evidence that this was a brothel? Is there any evidence that the community had complained to the authorities about this facility and their complaints had gone unheard

    please please please Mr Nizam. Read the References appear in paper. You are just boring me now.

    Back to my question,Can any sensible give a mature solution to deal with such evils of society in absence of law?

  58. Khalid R Hasan says:
    March 29th, 2007 12:59 pm

    Why is the discussion only focussing on an alleged brothel? What concerned me more was that the students wanted to close all video and cassette shops. The next step would be to remove music from radio and tv, and once that’s done there’ll be another target. It doesn’t matter whether one agrees with the students’ philosopy or not – if everyone starts taking the law into their own hands,even in what they believe to be a good cause, nobody will be safe other than the armed and powerful.

  59. OBSERVER says:
    March 30th, 2007 4:58 pm

    I have no idea (and do not think) that this action was planned to support govt. But this I know, teh effect of this incident is that it makes Musharraf stronger. For two reasons.

    First, it has totally distracted attention from the CJP story. So, thank you Jamia Hafsa, for doing that for Musharraf. He can now go free on that even though he was in deep trouble with that last week!

    Second, a lot of Musharraf’s supporters who had stopped supporting him in recent weeks because of the CJP event and others recent thigs, they see this and they say to themselves, ‘he is bad, but at least he is not as bad as these Taliban like madrassas.’ So they start supporting him again because now teh alternative to him are these religious fanatics. So, thank you Jamia Hafsa, for rebuilding Musharraf’s support base!

  60. Abdullah says:
    March 29th, 2007 7:18 pm

    ATP, your vigailantees are here too.

    Where all will you stop them. Your comments section has been raided by vigilantees who are using their dandas to shout out an shut people up just like the women with dandas.

  61. Allah Vasaya says:
    March 29th, 2007 1:36 pm

    It indeed is a very sad and scary for everyone, the Govt., the madrassa students and general public. I will be honest I am confused at who is right and who is wrong, a very crude Urdu saying comes to mind “Jaisa moo, vaisi chapaiR”. I just hope it does not turn out to be same as the situation in Waco TX some years ago.

  62. March 29th, 2007 1:44 pm


    What concerned me more was that the students wanted to close all video and cassette shops

    What’s wrong if they have wished something like that? The liberals also _want_ to throw religion out of Pakistan. Why don’t you express similar _concerns_ at that time?

    Why don’t you show your concerns when secularism is imposed by displaying vulgar Mobile companies Ads on TV? Why didn’ you raise your voice against such “imposed vulgarity” upon millions of Pakistani TV users while the Idea of those Ads has no relation with the MOBILE SERVICE itself and the experts of marketting and advertizing also condemned agianst such silly market tactics?

  63. jk says:
    March 29th, 2007 1:50 pm

    The cause of prostitution is lack of education, jobs, food etc. The cause of prostitution is poverty. Fight poverty and problems of prostitution, mullaism, etc will disappear.

    It’s sad to see that when people finally got organized they resorted to lawless vigilantism in the worst possible way.

    When law and order ceases to exist then that void is filled up by chaos. This is exactly what we are seeing here. I do not condone prostitution and I do not condone vigilantes. This is a sad day for Pakistan.

  64. Baji says:
    March 30th, 2007 2:33 am

    No, you don’t need any ‘evidence’… this is the new era of new hudood. All you need is some fictitious ‘federation’ that no one has heard of. They come and make a press conference IN the madrassah itself. And that accusation is enough to comdemn a woman… imagine where thsi takes you. Anyone, anytime can just accuse someone of being a prostitute and these laathi-waalian will go and do their ghonda gardi….

  65. nuqtah says:
    March 29th, 2007 1:59 pm

    Adnan I think they have a memory lapse when it comes to ‘militant secularism’. Some one please remind them what their idealogues did in Bolshevik revolution. What Stalin did with minorities in Russia. What Mao did to minorities in china. What has become of North Korea.

    Greatest IRONY yet….Saddam Hussain was a ba’athist, and ba’athist are the arab maifestation of Leftism!

    Now now my friends, Don’t hide…but clean your own backyard!

    cheers.

  66. Qadir Kareem says:
    March 30th, 2007 11:09 am

    You post misses the real point.

    This is about MOB RULE.

    As disturbing as women with lathis doing ghunda gardi and taking people hostages is the fact that everyone has accepted their accusation just because they make it. Read up on how mob rules works anywhere and this is exactly what happens. the Ku Klux Klan did the same. A bunch of people who think they are the custodians of everyones morality, willing to use force, and needing no evidence except their own words. They go out label someone as something bad and then everyone joins them with sticks to drive them out.

  67. Lahori says:
    March 29th, 2007 11:44 pm

    Look at Dawn news today for how teh kidnapped women were treated by Jamia Hafsa women.

    http://dawn.com/2007/03/30/top2.htm

    =====================

    Women freed after forced confession

    By Syed Irfan Raza

    ISLAMABAD, March 29: A confrontation between the government and hard-line religious leaders in the federal capital eased to some extent on Thursday when students of Madressah Hafsa released three kidnapped women and a six-month-old baby with a threat that they could be picked up again if their demand for release of a former Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) official and five other activists was not met within 15 days.

    Police took the women in protection after their release when the head of the family, Shamim Akhtar, disowned her statement made at a news conference at the madressah, in which she admitted that she had been involved in immoral activities and announced that she would not continue such acts in future. Soon after her release, Ms Akhtar said she had given the statement under pressure from the militant students of the madressah who had kidnapped her with three other family members from her residence on Tuesday evening.

    She alleged that she had been victimised by the militant students because she did not belong to their sect and that during the confinement she and her family members had been asked to change their sect.

    “I was forced to speak at the news conference inside the madressah as a pre-condition for our release,â€

  68. Akif Nizam says:
    March 29th, 2007 2:17 pm

    Adnan, the issue is not what we wish for or want to see; yes, we have different visions for Pakistan and we should be able to express it, including mullahs. No one’s disputing that; they should be able to protest the TV commercials they deem vulgar; they can demand the closure of video stores and that of brothels. What they don’t have a right to do is to burn down the TV station or the video store. What they don’t have the right to do is to impose on others what they can or cannot do. The liberals, according to you, want to take religion out of Pakistan. That’s not an accurate statement because religion is part of all of our lives and that of people around us. What liberals want is to see it out of the policy making process.

  69. Jabir Khan says:
    March 29th, 2007 2:24 pm

    Saad wrote: Is that the best that you could come up with? Try growing up, might as well help you think rationally.

    Janaab, the last time I checked the penal code of Pakistan, prostitution in all its forms is prohibited and is punishable by law. And you opt to conveniently forget that FACT. And police does play a are role in the protection of these brothels, which is against their mandate. And again you opt to conveniently forget that.

    That brothel was there from the last 10 years. Did you do anything against this crime? If you are not affected then don’t make drawing room arguments. Reality for ordinary Pakistanis is severely bitter. If you give a damn to their suffering then let them solve their problems.

    Still the question remains do you accept brothels next-door? If no and there is a lack of courage then let the affected people make a point against this breach of law which is criminally endorsed and supported by the law enforcement agencies.

    So again I invite you to prove prostitution is legal under the Pakistani law. It’s an open offer, just prove it. Otherwise the label of Islamophobic remains intact.

  70. nuqtah says:
    March 29th, 2007 2:30 pm

    Lol it’s funny that you say the following:”What they don’t have a right to do is to burn down the TV station or the video store. What they don’t have the right to do is to impose on others what they can or cannot do.”

    That is just so hypocritical, lol.

    You don’t want us to start on the militant and vigilante nature of your idealogical leftist and secularist forefathers…or do you?

    “What liberals want is to see it out of the policy making process. ”

    …but keep our liberal agenda formulated based on an ‘idealogy’.

  71. jk says:
    March 29th, 2007 2:31 pm

    It’s more about Mullaphobia than Islamophobia. I don’t want to be abducted by bearded men when I walk out of Radio City, or if I renew my Internet Connection, or cable TV. First they disapprove of brothels, next they’ll disapprove women driving cars. They’ve already attacked video stores. T

    It’s not about the brothel. It’s all about the beginning of Talibanization of Pakistan. If memory serves me well (which it does), I remember that the same people were responsible for the complete ban of TV, music, education, shaving gels, and almost all human rights in our neighbouring country, Afghanistan.

    Do you want that in Pakistan? You might because of your vehement support of these mullah militia.

  72. Jabir Khan says:
    March 29th, 2007 2:32 pm

    By the way beautiful thread. All the shades and hues of hypocrisy, in its galore.

  73. Jabir Khan says:
    March 29th, 2007 2:36 pm

    Nuqtah yar please dont stoop to their level. By the way the saying goes – only garbage rises in capitalism. That is why our ex-Bolshevik brothers and sisters are going crazy for it.

  74. jk says:
    March 29th, 2007 2:37 pm

    It’s more like the hues of ignorance and self righteousness shining brightly with all its splendor.

  75. Adnan Ahmad says:
    March 29th, 2007 2:46 pm

    I ask the admins to close this thread. Your energies and those of other regular ATP followers are better spent elsewhere.

  76. jk says:
    March 29th, 2007 2:50 pm

    Personally, I believe this is a brilliant plan by the Jamia Hafsa. It’s very similar to what Hezbollah did in Lebanon. They attack the ills of society thereby slowly winning the hearts and minds of the uneducated, poverty stricken people.

    Once they garner enough respect from the people they will move in to take over the government.

    I believe that the only way to fix this situation is for the repected, educated and reasonable Pakistanis to beat these guys at their own game. Pakistan has all the ability required to strike a strong blow against poverty.

    If they are able to defeat poverty, and help the ignored and downtrodden citizens of Pakistan then only will this unending cycle of madness get interrupted.

  77. chiefsahib says:
    March 29th, 2007 2:52 pm

    So if a group of people believe (without proof) that certain people are involved unlawful acts, you can go to their home, kidnap their women and take them to your home? So technically these madarssa women are involved in undesirable activities by breaking laws and what not. Please someone kidnap them and take them home…

    ps. what of the sexually abused little boys in madarssas. There was a story of a boy a year or two ago which ran in bbc along with an interview with the boy who got acid thrown on his face for not complying with his teachers illicit request. Look for it when you have a chance and try reading it without your eyes watering

  78. chiefsahib says:
    March 29th, 2007 3:02 pm

    Link here
    found the article to save you all some time

    So who thinks that this is far worse than the “alleged” crimes of the “aunty”.

    Anyone?

  79. chiefsahib says:
    March 29th, 2007 3:03 pm

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/02/08/wpak108.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/02/08/ixworld.html

    hopefully the link above will be formatted better than in the previous post

  80. Disciple says:
    March 29th, 2007 3:09 pm

    ’Û

  81. jk says:
    March 29th, 2007 3:11 pm

    Thanks for the link chief sahib. It is very sad that the police is not as active as it should be. :(

    This action by the Jamia Hafsa was a clearly political one. They don’t care about anything but their agendas.

  82. jk says:
    March 29th, 2007 3:18 pm

    Who is the non-bearded man being attacked by the laathi mullahs in the photograph?

  83. nuqtah says:
    March 29th, 2007 3:38 pm

    “only garbage rises in capitalism.”

    awesome saying haha.

    JK said:

    “It’s more like the hues of ignorance and self righteousness shining brightly with all its splendor.”

    O enlightened soul please tell what’s NOT ignorance? Is it the teachings of apostles Aristotle, Kant and Nietszche?

    I’ll tell you what’s self-rigteous attitude in its most pristine form. It is when a person idealogically subservient to ‘euro-centrism’, arrogantly ‘labels’ others self-righteous when his own idealogues advocated murder and rape. Ever wondered why Neitszche believed in an uber man? And why Plato was the forefather of eugenics? hummmmm food for thought. Try again ;).

    and chief saab, just to counter your naive circular arguement; just cuz a man has beard doesnt make him immune to sins.

  84. bhitai says:
    March 29th, 2007 3:46 pm

    I wonder where they got this ‘danda’ concept? This doesn’t sound like sunnah to me ;-) And raiding a home and doing MEDIA-TRIAL (why is the mullah going into *spicy* details of what the girls discovered before the media?) doesn’t sound very sunnah-compliant either..

  85. jk says:
    March 29th, 2007 3:46 pm

    I didn’t mention Europe, Nietzsche or philosophy. Your insecurities are showing.

    You aren’t countering anything. Chief Sahib’s comment was about vigilante justice and hypocritical actions taken to further a selfish agenda. Your childish and simplistic “counter” argument adds nothing to this discussion. We know that a beard does not make you immune to sins.

  86. chiefsahib says:
    March 29th, 2007 4:02 pm

    “and chief saab, just to counter your naive circular arguement; just cuz a man has beard doesnt make him immune to sins.”

    immune to sins? im talking about the society turning a blind eye to the Sins of the bearded ones while letting them make a mockery of society and law by parading these mindless drones of women kidnapping “alleged” brothel owners, tying them up along with a 6 month old. Making them repent their sins all within a day while threatening jihad on the govt if they dare arrest any of their students.

    Everyone in the world right now is a sinner (anyone who says otherwise is a liar and in turn sinning) but in our society anyone calling one of the bearded one a sinner seems to be committing the sins of attacking their “izzat”

    Try researching into the concept of the history of izzat and the mass rapes during partition in the name of “izzat”

  87. Lahori says:
    March 29th, 2007 4:57 pm

    I agree that this is a failure of governacne.

    What these madrassah women have one is clearly wrong and clearly illegal and clearly criminal. No doubt.

    But if indeed that was a brothel that that is also learly wrong, clearly illegal and clearly criminal.

    If it was a brothel then the fact that nothing was done by authorities against this clearly wrong, clearly illegal and clearly criminal act gave the women the argument to undertake their own criminal act of hostage taking.

    Similarly, the illegal buildings used as mosques that were demolished earlier were also clearly breaking the law. There again, the police backed down from their action and let these women highjack a library.

    So in this way the police and the government’s failure has fueled the situation by leting these madrassah women know that (a) police won’t themselves act against illegal activities like brothels and (b) that police will also not act against religious vigilantism like in the children’s library.

    So, it is not a surprise that the madrassah women acted as they did. That was teh rational thing for them to do. And the blame has to be shared by the larger breakdown of law and order too as others have said here.

  88. nuqtah says:
    March 29th, 2007 4:08 pm

    chief saab says:

    “immune to sins? im talking about the society turning a blind eye to the Sins of the bearded ones while letting them make a mockery of society and law by parading these mindless drones of women kidnapping “allegedâ€

  89. Israr says:
    March 29th, 2007 4:10 pm

    I m not sure what is more revealing, the analysis or the discussion the comment section .
    One would have to understand and that there are many things in life that can not be packaged into on nice gift box, they have good and bad in it as a package deal, If the writ of the state is important and highlighted than citizens are blown up, if that is given out than the citizen become the executives and the judiciary, I am surprised that the comments section is full of comments about either mullahsim of liberalism and trying assign label, all points of view are right and it is finding the right balance of checks and balances that will give you a stable state. These are opposite sides of the same coin, the Jamia movie clip on one side makes me cry with emotions and on the other side also warns me how this may progress to an emboldened body that will want me to live life like they see it . So please think rationally niegther is right or wrong and what we need is a check and balance on both sides
    I dont want the bodhi tree burned down and i dont want a brothel in my neighbor hood,I dont want police to brutalize the chief justice and i dont want students to shut things down. I don’t know am ia liberal or am i mullah but i do know I am human and that comes first.

  90. nuqtah says:
    March 29th, 2007 4:13 pm

    puzzled says:

    “The commenters here never cease to amaze me.

    The MOST disturbing thing here is that people actually think that a press conference by a few people from the neighborhood accusing a woman of being a prostitute is EVIDENCE that she is!!!!

    I guess for these Madrassa-wallas slander and accusation is enough to condemn and take hostage someone sicne there will be people like commenters here who will think that is enough evidence for them.

    Amazing, a woman who is raped needs 4 eye-witnesses but to take someone hostage and condemn someone as a prostitute it only needs a couple fo people at a press conference at a Madrassah!!!!!!!

    (By that standard, I gues Gen. Musharraf has evidence against teh CJ too!!!!!!)”

    Now let me acquaint you with Islamic Law a lil’ bit. They did NOT accuse the woman of committing zinaa. They blamed her of illicit and licentous behavior, a crime of ‘lesser’ degree, which therefore requires ‘lesser’ degree of evidence.

  91. Observer says:
    March 29th, 2007 4:17 pm

    “The hostage-taking by women students from Jamia Hafsa in Islamabad of the residents of a house that they allege is a brothel is not just another act of vigilantism and a breakdown of governance; it is also a manifestation of a nation divided against itself.”

    Judging by the discussions on this thread, how true. But it does give me cause for hope because the bedrock of a truly democratic society is the right to voice opinion. I hope that is never drowned out.

  92. nuqtah says:
    March 29th, 2007 4:17 pm

    Israr I fully sympathize with your sentiments. However, ambivalence and ambiguity are in a way negation of certainity. So, if you are not certain, you won’t believe in anything, If you can’t believe in anything, in that case it wouldn’t be farfetched to say that the person doesnt even believe in himself.

  93. jk says:
    March 29th, 2007 4:34 pm

    >Dang you seem to have mastered ad hominemism.

    You would know best especially because that is exactly what you’ve been doing through out this entire discussion.

    There are many forms of vigilantism. Are you defending the Jamia Hafsa version based on a few positive vigilante actions in the past?

    Maybe you should look up all the negative vigilante actions that have been taking in the past. Innocent lives were frequently destroyed all over the world just because a few idiots in positions of power labeled a few as criminals.

    Proof that this was an attempt at an anti-social movement (with nothing to do with the good of citizens) is that as soon as they saw the opportunity they started attacking stores, shops and people that they don’t agree with.

  94. Akif Nizam says:
    March 29th, 2007 4:46 pm

    I dare to ask the supporters of this vigilantes, would you still agree with their actions had they killed these women; had they publicly stoned them to death in the middle of Islamabad? What if that were to happen? After all, that sort of thing has a precedent too in their culture.

    Would that change your opinion? I’d be interested to know.

  95. Baji says:
    March 30th, 2007 10:34 am

    Abdullah Bhai writes:

    What type of “Civilizationâ€

  96. jk says:
    March 29th, 2007 4:50 pm

    >Israr I fully sympathize with your sentiments. >However, ambivalence and ambiguity are in a way >negation of certainity. So, if you are not >certain, you won’t believe in anything, If you >can’t believe in anything, in that case it >wouldn’t be farfetched to say that the person >doesnt even believe in himself.

    Not wanting a bodhi tree burned down and not wanting a brothel in the neighbourhood are two completely mutually exclusive things. It is NOT ambiguous or ambivalent.

    Plus you may be surprised to know that the world is not completely black and white. Therefore all the stuff about not being certain.. and not believing in your self because you have an open mind is simply false.

  97. zakoota says:
    March 29th, 2007 4:53 pm

    Adil has presented this story from only one angle, which is a bias. I never expected one sided story from a person like Adil.

  98. Jabir Khan says:
    March 29th, 2007 4:56 pm

    Just in, no comment:

    لاÛ

  99. nuqtah says:
    March 29th, 2007 4:57 pm

    it’s about making a decision, not about being black n white.

  100. Jabir Khan says:
    March 29th, 2007 4:57 pm

    Looks like the site is clipping the url. Here is another try:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/urdu/pakistan/story/2007/03/070329_mush_foullanguage_zs.shtml

  101. Asad says:
    March 29th, 2007 5:01 pm

    @ Jabir:

    Please show one place where I say that law should be selectively applied on the poor but not on the rich. Don’t assume things
    About the comments to this post:

    “Please respect the ATP Comment Policy.
    Keep comments on topic; no personal attacks; don’t submit indecent, inflammatory, slanderous, uncivil or irrelevant comments; flamers and trolls are not welcome; inappropriate comments will be removed or edited.
    if you won’t say it to someone’s face, then don’t say it here! ”

    Adil will have a hell of a job editing/deleting the comments to this article.

    80% of the comments are in violation of the commenting policy.

    About the Mullahs, this article is reason enough to get rid of them and being very careful of what they say or do:

    http://tinyurl.com/3eez3

    Then again, these people are just a small group amongst the supposedly good Mullahs. Apologists….

    If someone thinks that he/she is God and dictates to me how I should live my life, I will personally declare Jihad on them on an individual level. I have Allah’s book and his Prophet(PBUH)’s Sunnah for guidance. I don’t need some man/woman, who has memorised the Quran without understanding its meaning, to dictate to me how I should live my life.

    They might as well go rape their Madrassah students [read the linked article].

  102. Jabir Khan says:
    March 29th, 2007 5:06 pm

    Looks more and more like a diversion tactic of the govt. As I posted earlier the timing of these incidents is pose a big question mark. First the madrassah case and now the the prison sentence of a religeous leader for abusing Preisdent and PM. In the former case shia and sunni words have been used.

    Is the govt making way for emergency? Because it already knows the CJ case has backfired and weakened its position beyond repair. Also remember the Chaudhries tried to peddle the idea of suspending elections in case of Iran attack.

    This is important development.

  103. March 29th, 2007 5:11 pm


    I don’t want to be abducted by bearded men when I walk out of Radio City

    Last time I heard that 40+ missing Pakistani people+journalists were abducted by military agencies of Pakistan? IN which Pakistan do you live?

    Mullah fobia,Talibanphobia,sooner lefts of this forum are coming up with term “Islamofacist” heeh these are just childish tactics to divert the attention from real problem.


    few people from the neighborhood accusing a woman of being a prostitute is EVIDENCE that she is

    So your mighty wisdom revealed you that “fedration” consist of few people hence not worthy. What do you suggest then? Should we call few souls from Mars to give some evidences or ask US to send us satellite pictures of Aunty’s home to clarify what’s going “inside”? Kindly quit such childish drawing room politics and get yourself free from a “puzzled” life.

    @nuqtah: ask them whether they even know about “Bolshevik revolution”? So far I have learnt that they know only one slogan ‘down with mullahs’. The way you are keep tharshing their baseless rants, it seems they have changed plan now and instead of calling you mullah, they gonna declare you an Islamofacist. Just stay tune :-)

    @JK: equating the situation with talibanization is utter nonsense. The world and Pakistanis see how secularism of liberal dictator got failed big time on several issues and failed to provide a stable system in Pakistan. When we pakistanis can go thru imposed secularism of the dictator,dictatorship and fudalism then why not such kind of “talibanization”? There should be some change you know;)


    I wonder where they got this ‘danda’ concept?

    @Bhitai sain, they are following what their ruler recently did with the Chief Justice of Pakistan and with a channel.


    This doesn’t sound like sunnah to me

    I don’t know how did you bring this new thing in middle but technically they are following shariah or sunnah by copying the acts of their own ruler[The president] who also believe in “Danda gardi”. You forgot the “Big arm” of Wasi Zafar? *grin*

  104. Jabir Khan says:
    March 29th, 2007 5:20 pm

    I did not make any personal attacks on anyone else for that matter. A person named Saad did and still I chose to reply in kind.The question is why are you replying on his behalf?

    Am I to assume Saad and Asad are one and same and you forgot it? Tell me if I am wrong here.

  105. March 29th, 2007 5:25 pm


    80% of the comments are in violation of the commenting policy.

    Yeah and 20%==lefts of this forum, right?

    By the way did somebody ask you to speak on behalf of ATP Administration? Who gave you right to decide who’s following policy and who is not?

    Is your statment NOT another example of taking law in hands by an individual by bypassing a managment or system[ATP Mgmt here]?.


    I don’t need some man/woman, who has memorised the Quran without understanding its meaning, to dictate to me how I should live my life.

    How can you prove that they don’t understand quran? How can you even give statment that every one of them is hafiz? What made you to believe that studying in madrassah means memorising Quran only? are you just not abusing the all hafiz by making such statment?


    I have Allah’s book and his Prophet(PBUH)’s Sunnah for guidance

    yeah right but did you ever get chance to read the following hadith?


    Whosoever sees an evil action, let him change it with his hand; and if he is not able to do so, then with his tongue; and if he is not able to do so, then with his heart – and that is the weakest of faith(Sahih Bukhari)

    Now who don’t understand Islam here? You or those students or both? Go figure out yourself.

  106. Akif Nizam says:
    March 29th, 2007 5:28 pm

    I think it’s unfair to bring in the stories of sexual abuse into this discussion. Sexual abuse of children happen in Pakistan on all levels. Any country where so many children are put into compromising situations every day of their lives, it’s hay day for predators every day. This phenomenon is not exclusive to seminaries.

  107. chiefsahib says:
    March 29th, 2007 5:34 pm

    you seem to have a problem with being coherent buddy, whered partition come from?

    And you are painting every single madrassah for the action of some. This is the same line of arguement used by islamophobes to blame Islam for what some extremists did.

    That was to make a point as to the reasoning of their actions.You will see the connection if you study the concept of “izzat” in our culture

    And NO it is not an isolated incident and reading that article (and if you remember the situation when it happened) it was NOT condemned by any religious institution. Do some research into the prevelance of child abuse in madarsas (please do, i like people to get to facts and figures on their own so they can make their own “educated” view rather than hash out rumors)
    My point is that just because an organization is religious does not mean that they are absolved of all wrong doings and we should give them supreme authority.
    And don’t put words in my articles, i never blamed Islam just people. There is a difference between the two.
    Do i belief that the bearded ones and the these women are perfect examples of what Islam is about then my answer is a resounding NO.

  108. chiefsahib says:
    March 29th, 2007 5:41 pm

    Dear Akif, the entire discussion is about a woman accused of prostitution and you say keep references to sex out of it
    The reference to the article was to put this incident in perspective and to show the hypocracy which exists in our so called “religious” maderssas where a woman can be put through all that without proof while a child with proof (he was in the room with his family when acid was thrown and yes ive seen him with his face completely destroyed that it was no small incident) is forced by the same religous community to keep quiet and stay abused.
    I am not saying all religious people are bad or vice versa. All im saying is that these people arent perfect either and the attitude that they are above the law and above sin is just pathetic.
    Read the geo article about how their “principal” threatened extreme action if the students (who were tresspassing by the way) werent released.
    They broke a law and were caught doing so, so what makes them immune?

  109. Israr says:
    March 29th, 2007 5:47 pm

    I have to say that I am not ambivalent and I am not uncertain, quite contrary I am fairly clear ,
    It it is not possible for me to put these things on two opposite ends and endorse an opinion as certainly as you guys are able to to do, may be you can call it uncertainty , but the uncertainty is not because of negation or ambivalence, I am far from ambivalent, I can argue both positions that people are taking and at one point in life would have with utmost certainty believed in that position too, but i think now I have seen enough in life to say that certainty is only about divine and we mortals are passionately debating positions that each one of us knows inside that can be wrong . the best way is to analyze situation in results that it may bear in the long, and not just an idealisitc principal ( but may be this is the influence of the liberal media on my mind or may be it is the influence of the Talibanization

  110. Ali says:
    March 29th, 2007 5:52 pm

    I’ve only read comments that adhered to the ATP comment policy, so it was a rather quick read.

    The comment is to register a respectful protest against some of my fellow readers that are completely ignoring the ATP comment policy.

    To the admins, here are some ideas
    -have a word/posting limit to discourage ‘rants’
    -let readers ‘rank’ comments

    Thank you!

  111. March 29th, 2007 6:01 pm

    i feel intimidated..by the dialogue above and fearful of posting my comments on this issue..for: []I am a woman..will i be lynched for my views?
    so here are a few questions instead;
    []vigilante groups..would our reactions have been different if the vigilante women were not masked?..
    []violant acts by women against women?
    []mob/herd hysteria?
    []what of the of the alleged men visitors of the brothel?..are they not accountable?
    []salem witch trials?..

  112. Disciple says:
    March 29th, 2007 6:15 pm
  113. Jabir Khan says:
    March 29th, 2007 6:55 pm

    No bibi you don’t have to worry about being lynched. It’s a sex free zone….lol, meaning there is no way of knowing whether the poster is a male pretending as a woman or vice versa. Second you didn’t write your address and telephone number…so you have anonymity by default. I don’t presume you are that naïve to post your comments with your full identity on the net?

    And here is a question that I have been putting forward to all the readers and they don’t have the courage to answer. Incidentally I will pose the same to you:

    Will you allow a brother next door where you live? Yes or no.

  114. Jabir Khan says:
    March 29th, 2007 6:56 pm

    read brother as brothel in the previous post will ya.

    where is the edit button dear admin?

  115. baber says:
    March 29th, 2007 6:56 pm

    Adnan my friend it seems you don’t understand Islam yourself or u don’t follow it. Stop using quranic verses or hadith like Osama to justify your political point of view. With reference to the hadith,then being a muslim why din’t you and your mullahs din’t take no action(hand or mouth) against rapists of Mukhtar Mahi, Dr. shazi and others. Where are the mullahs when evil crimes happen in broad day light. When boys get molested in madras s’s. When shops get robbed, people get looted and killed. Your victims are poor women be it prostitute or politician.
    Its poverty the reason for crimes/brothels, start educating people and change the world by setting examples. This is not good example, I believe mullahs can do a better job as you might think they are more pious.

  116. Jabir Khan says:
    March 29th, 2007 6:59 pm

    disciple, this basti is unfortunately going to the mullahs coz it has been controlled and plundered by gadhaas for so long. eveyr action has an equal and opposite reaction…as they say.

  117. jk says:
    March 29th, 2007 7:15 pm

    Jabir Khan > No I wouldn’t like a brothel next door. I would however like to have a video store where I could rent TV shows next door.

    The Jamia Hafsa attacked both illegally, with out proof, with out legal backing.

  118. ATP Administrator says:
    March 29th, 2007 7:15 pm

    WE WOULD REQUEST ALL READERS TO PLEASE RESPECT THE COMMENT POLICY.

    It wastes too much of our time and tests our patience to have to clean up after people. Please do not force us to shut teh conversation. You can do so by sticking to topic, refraining from name-calling and taunting, and just because you have to disagree there is no need to be disagreeable. We have begun cleaning up teh comments here and will continue dong so. We value all substantive comments but will not tolerate inappropriate behavior. Please read the detailed comment policy here. Comments sent directly to moderation will be reviewed and approved only if they comply with ATP comment policy. Thanks.

  119. Jabir Khan says:
    March 29th, 2007 7:25 pm

    Thank you jk, you are right, no one likes the brothels next door. This is also true in case of G6 residents – they feel the same about these issues as we do.
    I still maintain these brothels cannot operate without the cooperation of the police.
    What we have here is the typical desi culture of throwing the garbage in front of the neighbor’s house in order to keep our house clean.

  120. Owais Mughal says:
    March 29th, 2007 8:50 pm

    I totally agree with Adil when he wrote: If one believes that the violent and coerced imposition of any one view – conservative or liberal; secular or religious – is wrong, then one has to reject all laathis

  121. Neena says:
    March 29th, 2007 10:01 pm

    It takes a lot of willing customers to run a brothel (if that is the case), so why doesn’t the madarsa students (moral police) kidnap the clients. Who were these women committing adultery with? And where are the four witnesses now to prove that they were committing the act?

  122. Kabir says:
    March 29th, 2007 10:27 pm

    Prostitution is the oldest business and has been present in every society. Should the brothel(s) be shut down? Yes! without a doubt.

    But please take a moment and see what is happening here. We are witnessing the actual Talibanization of the country in the heart of the capital. The defeat of the legal system (yes there is one). The rise of the radical extremist. No one need 3 different articles or blogs to understand this. The images & video are explaining things very clearly.

    This is not good. This is also indicative of ‘what can happen’. Dunda charge on any women without a burqa and any man without a beard? Why not? This will require more than just conscious press. The true leaders must choose ONE direction and control such un-Islamic violent behavior of the drama queens backed by the bearded lost souls craving for a meaning in their unambitious lives, even if that meaning is death itself. May Allah guide us in the right direction of tolerance and wisdom.

  123. pindiwalla says:
    March 29th, 2007 10:30 pm

    What happens next? These Jamia nutsos will start burning the CD shops, then possibly go after the barbers – and then kidnap the polio-vaccine giving doctors…

  124. Asad says:
    March 29th, 2007 10:34 pm

    “By the way did somebody ask you to speak on behalf of ATP Administration? Who gave you right to decide who’s following policy and who is not?”

    Stating the obvious is not taking things into hand. Please read the text above the comment box before actually commenting. If I say Allah is one, would you say I am twisting or taking control of Islam?

    “Is your statment NOT another example of taking law in hands by an individual by bypassing a managment or system[ATP Mgmt here]?.”

    No, as explained above. Am I forcefully hacking into the blog software to delete the illogical comments above? I am doing nothing to enforce my point of view, unlike the Madrassa girls who literally took the law into their hands and kidnapped the women. You have a very twisted definition of who is doing what and are yourself guilty of what you are accusing others of.

    “What made you to believe that studying in madrassah means memorising Quran only? are you just not abusing the all hafiz by making such statment?”

    Where did I explicitly state that? Don’t be an apologist.

    “Whosoever sees an evil action, let him change it with his hand; and if he is not able to do so, then with his tongue; and if he is not able to do so, then with his heart – and that is the weakest of faith(Sahih Bukhari)

    Now who don’t understand Islam here? You or those students or both? Go figure out yourself.”

    And did they even try using the law against the kidnapped women before doing things by hand? There is a reason why the writ of the state is necessary. It was there in during the time of the Caliphs, it should be here now.

    “I think it’s unfair to bring in the stories of sexual abuse into this discussion. Sexual abuse of children happen in Pakistan on all levels. Any country where so many children are put into compromising situations every day of their lives, it’s hay day for predators every day. This phenomenon is not exclusive to seminaries.”

    Agreed. I also ask that those involved in raping innocents [and proven medically] should be immediately castrated. A few little Johns missing would reduce the rape rates in the country more than the current laws.

    “My point is that just because an organization is religious does not mean that they are absolved of all wrong doings and we should give them supreme authority.
    And don’t put words in my articles, i never blamed Islam just people. There is a difference between the two.
    Do i belief that the bearded ones and the these women are perfect examples of what Islam is about then my answer is a resounding NO.”

    And that is the crux of the matter at hand.

    “Will you allow a brothel next door where you live? Yes or no.”

    No, provided that it is proved that it is a brothel and not the grapevine.

    “WE WOULD REQUEST ALL READERS TO PLEASE RESPECT THE COMMENT POLICY.

    It wastes too much of our time and tests our patience to have to clean up after people. Please do not force us to shut teh conversation. You can do so by sticking to topic, refraining from name-calling and taunting, and just because you have to disagree there is no need to be disagreeable. We have begun cleaning up teh comments here and will continue dong so. We value all substantive comments but will not tolerate inappropriate behavior. Please read the detailed comment policy here. Comments sent directly to moderation will be reviewed and approved only if they comply with ATP comment policy. Thanks.”

    Thank you for that!

  125. Jamhooriat says:
    March 29th, 2007 11:05 pm

    The original post should be removed as its not a balance representation of facts. Jab tak bewaqoof zindah hain, aqalamandon ko pareeshan honey kee zaroorat naheen.

  126. Islamabadi says:
    March 30th, 2007 12:31 am

    Here is what I think needs to happen if law and order has to retain any credibility.

    1. Investigate if the establishment was really a brothel and if it is then take swift and immediate action against it.

    2. Take swift and immediate legal action against the women from Hafsa Jamia for kidnapping women and also kidnapping policemen.

    3. Take swift and immediate legal action against any madrassas through land-grabbing and and by breaking land laws.

    My point is that if law and order is to be respected then it needs to be applied equally and to everyone.

  127. Ibrahim says:
    March 30th, 2007 12:04 am

    Salamalikum,

    As I’ve mentioned in other posts, the problem here is the action and not the intention and the cause. Adnan Siddiqi has already posted some ahadeeth but one I want to quote for those who reject naseehat under the umbrella of views being imposed on them is this: al-deenu al-naseeha (this religion is naseehat), and this hadeeth should be read with the hadeeth of al-Bukhari that Adnan quoted.

    But, the problem is that the women shouldn’t have taken the law in their own hands. Yes, if the women hadn’t taken any actions against this brothel, the government wouldn’t have done anything to stop this illegal activity, in a Muslim society, no less! Despite that, there is a ijama of scholars on the issue that Muslims aren’t allowed to take imposing of punishment under shariah in their own hands. That’s why there is supposed to be a qazi in a Muslim society and every matter is brought in front of the court. Even, for example, let’s say a spouse finds another spouse with a stranger in the bed and clearly the spouse knows that this person should be stoned in public. Still, the spouse is supposed to refer the case to the qazi knowing that the guilty party can completely deny the allegation and the situation can reach to the level of qazaf and lu’aan, in which the guilty spouse can escape any punishment in this world. It’s not allowed for the spouse to kill the guily party or have the guilty killed.

    Allah knows best, but there’s a hadeeth concerning this as well but I can’t find it. Even though I’m not pleased with the religious parties in Pakistan, which mostly comes under jamiat ulema-e-islam, the jamiat web site even calls it extremism when “vigilantes take law into their own hands after much frustrationâ€

  128. omar r. quraishi says:
    March 30th, 2007 12:18 am

    Editorial, The News, March 30, 2007

    Who will fight this Talibanisation?

    The events of recent days in the NWFP town of Tank and in Islamabad should shatter the assessment of all those policymakers, government functionaries and members of civil society who thought that Talibanisation was a feature only of FATA or some other remote and backward area of the country. Tank, which is now under curfew, and where several people were killed as extremists (thought to be allied with a Waziristan militant commander with whom the government brokered a ‘peace deal’ last year) launched an all-out attack on Tuesday night, is the district headquarters of Tank district and not far from Bannu, Dera Ismail Khan and Lakki Marwat, all reasonably large towns of NWFP. The violence there began on Monday after a school principal had the courage to call in the police after jihadis barged into his institution and tried to win new recruits to their cause. The local SHO also responded and he sadly paid for it with his life, reportedly killed in the most cold-blooded manner possible, after he thought he had managed to broker a truce with the militants who would leave the school peacefully and without any new schoolboys in tow. The principal was kidnapped the following day from his home and he too paid for his courage in standing up to these extremists with his life — on Thursday it was reported that his body was found from South Waziristan. The militants who attacked Tank on Thursday have been linked to pro-Taliban commander Baitullah Mehsud since this is his area of influence, although he has himself denied any such connection. However, it is worth reiterating that on many occasions in the past militants have carried out attacks against government installations and security personnel or killed so-called ‘informers’ in areas under their influence but then disassociated themselves from these acts. One can only hope that the president is absolutely one hundred per cent accurate when he says that those elements in the intelligence agencies who in the past had supported the Taliban, the jihadis and their sympathisers are no longer in the service of the government and that now any assistance to these extremists is coming, if at all, from retired intelligence officials.

    The other disturbing development is taking place right in the heart of the federal capital. In this case particularly, the government and the Islamabad local administration are to blame for not having acted earlier when the female students of Jamia Hafsa had forcibly and illegally occupied a children’s library demanding that this occupation would end only after the government rebuilt a portion of a mosque complex that had been demolished by the Capital Development Authority because it was built on encroached land. Now since those protesting claim to be religious students, one would first like to ask them their position on the legality of a house of worship – both from the temporal and the theological point of view – that is built on encroached land. Had the government acted promptly and strongly against this illegal occupation of the library and told the students and their madressah patrons that mosques built on illegal land are not legal, and had the students been ejected and not allowed to roam around Islamabad and launch ‘raids’ perhaps what happened on Wednesday could have been pre-empted. But as usual, the government seemed to sleep through this all, with the religious affairs minister claiming a “breakthrough” some weeks ago in the occupation stand-off.

    This ‘breakthrough’ was that the government would rebuild the demolished parts of the mosque. The minister also managed to pose for the cameras as he laid the first ‘brick’ of this promised rebuilding operation. But the naivete of the minister and all those in the government who agreed to this view of giving concessions to the undue and illegal demands of extremists in the country was once again proven wrong when after being given a foot they proceeded to demand a mile. Hopefully, in any future negotiations, the services of the good minister will not be used. Instead of leaving the library and returning to their seminary as any God-fearing law-abiding citizens would have done (they in fact would not have occupied the library in the first place), they placed more demand before the government and refused to end their occupation. The initial ‘raid’ they conducted on one of the capital’s busiest bazaars amazingly went unnoticed by the police and local administration, again making one wonder whether some elements in either or both organisations were perhaps sympathetic to the cause of these extremists. An SHO has apparently been suspended for failing to act against the students when they ‘raided’ the market but one would like to ask the government what it plans to do in the case of the minister, whose ‘breakthrough’ emboldened these extremists so much that they believed they could go about dispensing their own warped interpretation of religion and law on everybody else, holding even policemen hostage in the process.

    What is perhaps equally worrying is the fact that there may be many in Pakistani society who may think that what these extremists posing as students have done is good and necessary. After all, with all the intolerance and bigotry that one is exposed to as a Pakistani in the course of one’s daily life (from the mosque imam’s often virulent sermon, the bias and prejudice manifest in the national curriculum, the overdose of religious programmes and channels on television, to the increasing tide of religiosity in society and the tendency among many people to bring in religion into just about everything), the government and civil society have themselves to blame for this increase in Talibanisation. As for the government, it fails on several counts. Foremost among them is its remarkable — and sadly enduring — inability to take a stand against extremists forces such as in Tank and the Jamia Hafsa students, deeming such matters ‘sensitive’ and then burying its head in the sand like an ostrich, pretending everything is all right, and continuing to think (at least some sections of the government and security establishment do, it would be fair to assume, subscribe to this view) that a way of having leverage with our regional neighbours means supping with the extremists and jihadis. In addition to this, the government is guilty of adopting a clear double standard. liberal and law-abiding progressive elements are tear-gassed and lathi-charged when they organise peaceful protests but when the extremists and obscurantists indulge in violent protests they are given undue concessions and a free hand to act with impunity. Tank and the Jamia Hafsa episode should serve as a wakeup call to the government. It must act decisively now. The future is only going to get bleaker unless madressah and national curriculum reforms are carried out and the overt display of religion in national life is curtailed, to levels normally found in other Muslim countries such as Malaysia or the Gulf states. As for civil society, and those who think they are non-extremist (i.e., progressive, liberal and/or moderate), they better stand up and speak against the extremists or risk their very existence and way of life coming under a permanent threat.

  129. Ummro says:
    March 30th, 2007 12:53 am

    The issue at the heart of the matter is the non-recognition of legitimacy of State of Pakistan by a section of our society representing the far right. These are the descendants of the people which did not see the creation of Pakistan very kindly and now they want to force their will on the rest of the society. Their refusal to accept the Authority of the state of Pakistan will only lead to Anarchy very ably fueled by the corrupt and incompetent elite that govern our beloved country.

  130. kursed says:
    March 30th, 2007 1:15 am

    ISLAMABAD: The government has directed the Islamabad administration not to take “immediateâ€

  131. Ismail Hussein says:
    March 30th, 2007 4:53 pm

    I have no idea what this conversation is about any more.

    Should courts function properly. Yes, certainly.

    Is it OK for these madrassa women to kidnap others and do this hooliganism becasue we dont have working courts? No, certainly not.

    Is thsi revolution. For them it is. But for those of us who o not want a Taliban-like revolution, no this is not what we want.

  132. March 30th, 2007 2:06 am

    Can be my ignorance that i didnt heard or read of any evidence provided by madrassa girls against the hostages. Arent there clearly sketched rules for proving adultery n due punishment to be imposed by a legitimate QAZI/JUDGE in Islam. If there’re then arent these madrassa ppl violating the islamic law themselves? did they witness anything going on in that house, if yes then y didnt they catch the partners in crime? M sure these 3 women cant be the only culprits, there must be some men involved.

  133. Abdullah says:
    March 30th, 2007 2:33 am

    Actually English press always invents some “Terminologies’ Like “Talibization”. Here I will also use another term ‘Vulgarization’. Here in on another topic we are condemining govt. for hostile action against CJ. It’s the same police which were grapping the hairs of CJ & pushed him & when they get under the circle of student, they become “Mazlooms”.

    Is it not true the students first preach peacefully to CD owner shops, is it not true that Shop owners guided them about Aunty Shamin act, is it not true that students also preach Aunty Shamim peacefully, Is it not true that Aunty Shamim gave them threat of serious repurcussions & students not reacted despite of their ability to react, is not trus that 4 teachers of Jamia Hafsa was kidnapped by Govt. officials first & then in counter reaction they took action.
    Here I am not supporting Jamia’s students, but also see the other side of picture, why state supporting prostitution. Why they are so active in launching FIR & on the other hand prostitution is so common in Islamabad. The local residence also feels happy when Jamia students put the pressure on Aunty Shamim
    but our enlightended friends did not feel happy.

  134. Asad says:
    March 30th, 2007 2:36 am

    The coverage by Dawn and The News seems balanced and accurate. This should all be investigated independently and culprits should be given the severest punishment, be they the kidnapped women or the kidnapping women.

  135. Asad says:
    March 30th, 2007 2:42 am

    Another pertinent question is; what do the ordinary women of Pakistan think about this? Do they want to be kidnapped in a similar way for supposed crimes for which there is no evidence or do they want to protest for their rights?

  136. Abdullah says:
    March 30th, 2007 2:47 am

    “As for civil society, and those who think they are non-extremist (i.e., progressive, liberal and/or moderate), they better stand up and speak against the extremists or risk their very existence and way of life coming under a permanent threat”.

    What type of “Civilization” they are interested in promoting in Pakistan, Vulgar & nude fashion shows, advertise like Ufone, skin tight jeans, sleeveless t-shirts, dance parties, alcoholism, clubs of guys & lesbians, more AIDS patients, more broken families, more single parents, more rapes, more cases like Mukhtara Mai,more dating, more escape of girls from homes,

    Sorry Mr. Qureshi, we don’t need this type of Civilization.

    If state will support the vulgarity then society should ready to face the counter reaction.

    Mr. Qureshi! Why not u criticizes the theme of Aurora awards, under the umbrella of Dawn group which were based on vulgar Greek mythology. Where dresses of women were out of sharm-o-hya.

  137. Abdullah says:
    March 30th, 2007 2:58 am

    “zaban-e- khalq ko Naqqar-e-khuda samjho”

    In all newspapers it has published that CD owners & shop keepers pointed out about the role of Aunty Shamim.

    The residence of that colony also supported the Jamia students in this regard

    & how can any body claim that Aunty Ahamim were not under the pressure of state to deny her first press conference in Jamia.

    Please don’t support prostitution, our govt. is enough in this cause

  138. Abdullah says:
    March 30th, 2007 3:32 am

    انÛ

  139. March 30th, 2007 3:33 am


    to Islamise our society

    What’s wrong in it? Every Muslim since beginning has wished to be a part of an Islamic society. The main thing is how to implement an Islamic society, obviously keeping dandas in hand can’t be helpful to implement any such society at all. If they are really sincere to establish an Islamic society[may God help them-ameen] then they should follow the path which the Prophet[saw] of religion followed that is acting upon it+preaching. They should tell advantages of islamic society by setting examples,without example nothing can be followed. They could follow preachin model of tabligeehis at raiwind which is so far very effective model and many non-muslims who accepted Islam was due to their harmless and unforceful teachings. They didn’t accept Islam by following people like me and seculars.

    The govt’s point of view about “proper action” is actually indirect indication of yet anothe r”DANDA” method which would be like striking axe on own toe because by danda they can remove a single madrassah but in reaction several others including non-madrassah people would come forward and sympathize hafsa students.Govt wil have to face more “hafsa students” in future.

    Danda can’t be answer of another danda. This is what Govt shud have learnt at Waana and this is what US learnt in afghanistan and Iraq. I hope dictator would show sign of mutirity ONCE in his tenure but then I am asking too much from a mindless dictator.

    I hope govt would try to

  140. March 30th, 2007 3:38 am

    soryr i dont know why it didnt publish the entire sentence it was:


    I hope govt would try to show sign of maturity once by dealing this issue properly but then I am askig too much from an immature mindless dictator.

  141. nuqtah says:
    March 30th, 2007 3:59 am

    Ibrahim I respectfully disagree. What Jamia Hafsa girls did, although their approach may have had not been the best, comes under ‘nahi `an al-munkar wa `amr bil ma’roof’, not under implementation of Law.

  142. babar says:
    March 30th, 2007 4:17 am

    If you see some thing vulgar on TV you have the option of turning the knob and tune into quran channel. Or you are too much tempted to watch vulgarity . Tell me. But once I am thrown into a Taliban dungeon, I am not left with much choices. Or do I?

    By the way two girls going around with their Namahram drivers. What is that? And an aparant free mixing of men and women in the jamia hafsa though behind the burqas. But shouldnt some moral police go and investigate why all those namahram males go in and out of a facility where there are thousands of females. And why no voice from the defenders of faith for the abused children, whose ratio must be highest in Pakistan , thanks to the madrassas. I think grown ups can make their own choices, but kids must be protected be they in a secular school or a madrassa. So anyone would like to send their kid to a school which is open, not a closed door seminary where they dont know whats happening. But no inquiry is made into this.
    Seems like having a beared is the ultimate privilge in pakistan. Absloves you of all the laws.

    One thing I dont understand. How come suddenly all the fundos started crying for democracy and against deictatorship. Few years back when I was in college all of them would chant against democracy , and democracy was riduclued in the same way as secularism is done now.

    Bazeecha-e-atfal hai duniya mere age…hota hai shab-o-roz tamasha mere age.

  143. Pun intended! says:
    March 30th, 2007 4:24 am

    Fundamentalism grows when people feel that the world around them is out of their control and their values are being assaulted. This sense of martyrdom and of corruption and rot is extremely exaggerated of course but it is important for the media to reflect Pakistani reality accurately and chart a middle ground – most Pakistanis are neither fanatics nor westernized people and this is what the media needs to foreground.

    Meanwhile these vigilantes can not be allowed to get their way by invading libraries and kidnapping people. That will only encourage them to perform more “spectacular” feats in the future.

  144. babar says:
    March 30th, 2007 4:24 am

    Males going in and going out where there are many females, and no outsider can go in, unlike a regular secular facility , so that everything is in the eyes of public, and hence very little chances of adultery or fornication happening. This makes me very suspicious of what goes on in the jamia there. No body knows what they do inside. They should either open up or throw all the males out. Or police should go and investigate and stop this behayai

  145. Pun intended! says:
    March 30th, 2007 4:30 am

    And that approach of tear gassing, breaking bones, going into overdrive is ‘exactly’ what the fundamentalists need. They want to portray themselves as the defenders of Islam in front of a cruel, malicious and godless police/govt.

    Using excessive force ‘especially’ in front of camera crews will give them them the very publicity they seek.

  146. Naveed says:
    March 30th, 2007 5:16 am

    The newsstory is still fresh and most of the statements from “auntie” are on print media. I heard her on a cable TV channel and she, in addition to what she has already been quote in the print media, alleged that she was forced to make statements against the Shia faith. Since Zia’s off-spring heads the ministry of religious affairs & Pindi/Islamabad is his constituency, I am not surprised that all this is happening in the capital.

  147. Omar R. Quraishi says:
    March 30th, 2007 5:23 am

    adnan and abdullah would feel right at home in lal masjid — come on guys — no need to be bashful about that

  148. Abdullah says:
    March 30th, 2007 5:32 am

    اسلام آباد Ú©Û’ بعض Ø´Û

  149. babar says:
    March 30th, 2007 5:40 am

    Returning to the original topic of the post, the coverage in urdu media is shameful. Jand editoral is too much apologitic of them and even lauds govt for not taking action earlier, nawaiwaqt doesnt talk about it at all, and express is also standing behind the burqa ladies. In the news section the coverage is hardly of a two column news and even there it is written that the aunty cofessed to her sins and repented thats why the jamia released them.
    Shame on urdu press. Do they get money bags from them to act like this or what? May be Omar Quraishi can enlighten us. Isnt there a single person with soul who also loves urdu to write something better in our beloved langauge?

  150. jayjay says:
    March 30th, 2007 6:08 am

    Hazrat Pervaiz Munir Alvi Rahmautullah Alay enlighted at the holy hours of 9.43 am on the sacred day of Mar 28:

    “Babar was right. You guys are so ugly.â€

  151. March 30th, 2007 6:13 am

    Recently read a good news that Aunty with her family quits the mohallah. Now may I expect some action by resident Bhanjays of this forum to shut their PCs and Laptops off and do something for their Aunty rather continue their “drawingroom” politics? :-)


    what do the ordinary women of Pakistan think about this?

    Are you saying that every Pakistani woman is involved in dirty business like Aunty?

    Use your wisdom my friend, why was ONLY Aunty’s home targetted? why didn’t these student capture some other random woman from a home? Did they capture any woman who was not used to take hijab?

    The news says clearly[if one is able to read] that residents of area had submitted complaints against Aunty to police but police took no action . Despite their action of handling aunty was not proper at all but when residents are happy then why the heck everyone else is getting itchy here?

    When there is absence of law then individuals will keep taking laws in hands and it would increase more and more if Govt doesn’t quit its dictatorship attitude. You and many would keep screaming infront of your PCs ,that’s all you guys can do and it’s not going to make any difference at all.

    It’s so sad to read recent comments that people here are favoring the dirty business of aunty. Very shame!

  152. PUZZLED says:
    March 30th, 2007 10:41 am

    I am also curious. Why is the leadership of the Hafsa Jamia all male?

    Do they live in the Madrassah with all these women?

    Is that proper and Islamic?

    No, Adnan Siddiqui, I am still puzzled why people will accept rumor as fact just because some ‘federation’ says so. What if 30 people here got together and said something realy really had about you. Would that make it true?

  153. jayjay says:
    March 30th, 2007 6:29 am

    A couple of residents of G-6, next to Wapda Ground , across the road from Jamia Hafsa have stated that there is a prostitution hub in the madrassa but the authorities have failed to take any action to curb this “sinâ€

  154. March 30th, 2007 6:29 am


    Actually English press always invents some “Terminologies’ Like “Talibizationâ€

  155. Amir-ul-Momineen says:
    March 30th, 2007 10:59 am

    ATP, it seems you are misrepresenting the pictures.

    From the reports now it seems that many of those people in burqas with sticks were not women at all they were madrassah men dressed up as women. Tell you a lot about cross-dressing madrassah men.

  156. Pun intended! says:
    March 30th, 2007 6:50 am

    Sorry for that, another interesting piece of news.

    http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/9657/onesi2.jpg

  157. Jabir Khan says:
    March 30th, 2007 6:59 am

    Adnan wrote: “ Recently read a good news that Aunty with her family quits the mohallah. Now may I expect some action by resident Bhanjays of this forum to shut their PCs and Laptops off and do something for their Aunty rather continue their “drawingroomâ€

  158. jk says:
    March 30th, 2007 8:10 am

    Asking for justice and fair trial does not mean support of “Aunti” Shamim.

    Not supporting fanatics and their crimes does not mean support of “Aunti” shamim.

    Brothels everywhere are a common source of child rape, drugs, and diseases. They should be shut down by the proper authorities and a fair trial should be given.

    The main people at fault are the people who govern Pakistan. Lawlessness is a void that always gets filled with chaos. In this case the chaos was the Jamia Hafsa.

    If the brothels were investigated and shut down by the authorities then none of this would have happened. People would not look towards fanatics for aid. And people like “Aunti” Shamim would have been in prison a long time ago.

    This whole debacle ended up being a political statement for Jamia Hafsa and have no doubt gathered for them selves a lot of support amongst the people. Jamia Hafsa will now feel emboldened and go after other “ills” of society next such as shaving kits, movie stores, and anything technologically advanced.

  159. Jabir Khan says:
    March 30th, 2007 8:41 am

    ‘The main people at fault are the people who govern Pakistan.’

    You have summarized the whole situation in a nutshell. And I bet they are behind this whole fiasco as well. The geopolitical situation of the region is very critical. This incident is directly or indirectly linked to what will happen in the coming months and years. The powers are putting their pawns in place for something terrible. I hope not but, soon these incidents will be looked upon as non-issues by both liberal and religious extremists.

    You will agree that brothels and other crimes are supported and protected by the ones who are supposed to take action against them. After many years of observing lawlessness in our and western supposedly ‘prosperous’ societies, I have come to a conclusion that if governments want then no crime can exist. But there is no will to do it. Now I see crime as tool for controlling the populace. When the authorities consider public as expendable animals then it is okay to make them follow the carrot (with no intention of giving it).

    Kindly suggest what to do when:

    1) Govts are unwilling to deliver justice and act against crimes. (I believe they always have the necessary authority to do it. They don’t ‘fail’ but ‘deliberately choose’ not to act.)

    2) Stop liberal and religious extremists from becoming pawns it this game.

    3) How and where to find and encourage capable people and put them in place for good governance?

  160. March 30th, 2007 9:00 am


    her ’supporters’

    *grin*

    Yeah if it comes in her knowledge that she has got a huge fan following specially on this forum then she could have though to setup more brothels in Pakistan or could outsource her “services” since lots of her supports currently reside in US and other part of the world and they could be very helpful to make her more Prosperous.

  161. Omar R. Quraishi says:
    March 30th, 2007 9:02 am

    babar — the urdu press for many reasons which I cannot go into on this board tends to be far more conservative than the English press

  162. Baja says:
    March 30th, 2007 10:41 am

    That woman was living there form the past 10 years. Poeple around these brothels are not naive no know what is happening.

  163. Masood says:
    March 30th, 2007 11:09 am

    Thought it was an interesting comparison. Though I would like to support Mr. Saad in this matter that both are wrong. Running brothels and running parallel judicial systems. If the girls are actually serious about solving these problems they would be better off creating a press release office instead of a private army (in a country not at war this is usually more effective). But that unfortunately will not serve the people who misguide them.

    But as they say “tali aik haath sey nahin bajti”. Our polraized society needs to bring itself together and there should be serious limits on immorality as well.

    Thirdly, we are I believe blowing it out of proportions. Students do create trouble. We can look at the history of the different universities when there used to be unions, perhaps not at the same scale, but it did exist. Nevertheless, the solution to the problem is removing the reasons, brothels and political islam alike.

    Smile guys, things are not that bad, not yet at least.

  164. March 30th, 2007 11:10 am

    Adil, an interesting debate no doubt…

    I think all of us can learn a thing or two from the history of two of our neighbors, Iran and Afghanistan, this Islamization trip that some of us are so eager to go on, doesnt help anyone.

    There should always be choices in society. If a woman chooses to wear the burqa and wants to spend her life inside the four walls of her home, well then good for her…
    I for one dont want to, and i shouldnt be forced to.

    That is the point, these stick waving madrassa students want to impose their version of Islam on the rest of us. They dont want to live in a society where you have the freedom to watch the latest James Bond film and say your Isha namaz.

    All of us are Muslims, Adnan you are not the only one blessed to be a muslim, let us handle our religion the way we want to.

    The secularists you so despise, do not force you to wear western clothes, or listen to western music or study in a co-educational school or even eat in the same restaurant as women. So why are you so hell bent on enforcing your views on the secularists?

    I am damned if my children will grow up in a Pakistan led by the religious right. I am fine with them practising whatever religion, in whatever way they like, but they have absolutely NO RIGHT to force the rest of us to do the same.

  165. Masood says:
    March 30th, 2007 11:16 am

    and anther thing. the mullahs who are sending in girls to do there dirty work should be well aware of the ugly situation that can arise if things went out of control. Girls talking tear gas shells and rubber bullets, I do not even want to imagine that.

  166. Asad says:
    March 30th, 2007 11:20 am

    “Are you saying that every Pakistani woman is involved in dirty business like Aunty?”

    You have a sick mentality.

    This whole incident has the same vibes as when one person lodged a case with the SC about blogs showing cartoon pictures of the Prophet (PBUH) and as a result blogging sites were banned. I am sure Pakistani bloggers are still [i]enjoying[/i] that ban. A patent case of dabbling into something one doesn’t understands seems common place in Pakistan.

  167. kashif says:
    March 30th, 2007 11:23 am

    Dear Baji,
    THe islamic punishment for this is 80 stripes as clearly stated in Quran. I hope these guys will be more than happy to surrender for this punishment to fulfill God’s order, given their apparent love for Quran.

    The verse is as following

    “And those who caluminate chaste women but bring not four witnesses-flog them with eighty stripes, and do not admit their evidence ever after, for it is they that are the transgressors.” 24:4

  168. tina says:
    March 30th, 2007 11:44 am

    the President is vulnerable now, hence the disturbances. The timing is not accidental.

    Here in the States there’s a rumour floating about that Aunti said she would rather convert to Christianity after being treated that way by Muslims.

    Way to go, lady jihadis. You’re helping the cause of Islam a lot—not.

  169. Concerned says:
    March 30th, 2007 11:44 am

    I don’t know what to say. I’m not religious at all personally (became a rationalist agnostic in college, and have since become a mystic), and am a liberal to the core, but it seems the only way to democracy now will have to be via theocracy, similar to Iran. It’s a necessary stage in our evolution that we can’t bypass. Otherwise, we’ll just end up being a failed state — probably many will say we already are one.

    I can’t see any other way out of this, frankly. We have to let our institutions evolve at their own pace — the military cannot keep interfering.

    On another note, the lack of empathy and compassion on all sides in this discussion is appalling. When will we give up this machismo and have the humility to realize that we are trifling units in the grand scheme of this universe and existence?

    As for myself, I am just focusing on my own spiritual journey and on learning to surrender my ego to the Divine. All I can say is: I can only do my best to help others through this social upheaval, take responsibility for the consequences of my actions, and beyond that, just be a child surrendered to the grace of God.

    And the human condition? This is no place to stop, between beast and god. The only way out of the human condition — and indeed, out of suffering — is to awaken one’s inner divinity.

  170. Turab says:
    March 30th, 2007 11:50 am

    Mullah ki beti sub se ziada badnaam hoti hai muhallay mien

    I think people like these radical women bring out their frustation and anger upon others and also to hide their deeds ……….

  171. Jabir Khan says:
    March 30th, 2007 11:54 am

    I am no authority on Quran but the word used in the said verse is ‘chaste women’.

    So clearly Quran is distinguishing between chaste and unchaste women.

    So far the news seems to indicate that this particular woman did not have the reputation of being chaste. Am I wrong here?

    Ofcourse the deen should not bee kidnapped by zealots – both liberals and religious. Late Ishafaq Ahmed was right that this country is being more damaged by educated public than the illeterate. He was an insider.

    Baaqi, Allah knows best.

  172. Jabir Khan says:
    March 30th, 2007 12:01 pm

    Concerned, you are right. The Iranian revolution did not happen over night. The liberals in power were following their western masters blindly. They were in authority and chose to maintain a system of corruption and chaos and neglected the needs of ordinary citizens.

    Fortunately or unfortunately the same episode is happening here now. The window of opportunity is small for reconiliation and to have a mutual path.

    Phir na kehna khabar na hoi.

  173. March 30th, 2007 12:22 pm

    Since these women have done all of this in the name of morality and God, i want to know whose teaching them Islam because the religion i grew up with, instills tolerence and respect, It does not encourage people to become violent.

    In fact, the prophet (PBUH) emphasized, that we should never suspect and intefere in the lives of others. He asked his companions to knock three times and seek permission to enter anyone’s house..

    Ofcourse the students at this madrassa probably never learnt this, after all, it wouldnt be in the best interest of their teachers to teach them these aspects of Islam…

    These women are being used as pawns… (As Tina points out), they are happy to knock down the door of a woman they “suspect” but not take to the streets when a woman is gang raped, or when a woman is married off to the Koran, or killed in an act of honor, or exchanged for Swara…

  174. tina says:
    March 30th, 2007 12:28 pm

    Jayjay suggests that some witnesses say there is a prostitution ring within the Jamia madrassah (wouldn’t surprise me, honestly), so maybe pouncing on Aunti Shamim is just a case of needing to eliminate the competition….something to think about…..;)

    However bad people, men or women, appear to be, when you find out the truth they usually manage to be even worse.

    And now some of the people in burka turned out to be men?

    Cross-dressing red light madrassah hijinks–my oh my oh my.

    I think we don’t need to look to this particular population for moral/ethical guidance on any matters, particularly relgious ones, what do you say?

  175. Jabir Khan says:
    March 30th, 2007 12:28 pm

    A quote by Edward L. Bernays will go a long way to understand the happenings in the world.

    “Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of.”

  176. Manas Shaikh says:
    March 30th, 2007 12:42 pm

    (to the writer)
    what did you expect? everyone will sing in the same tune? it will not happen. it does not happen.

    even though i don’t agree with the strong or oversimplified words of the woman in the video, i do sympathise with them when the govt is unable to take the civic responsibility it has.

    i think it is a good sign that people, right or wrong, are into political activism. they will, i believe, with time learn to be moderates.

  177. Jabir Khan says:
    March 30th, 2007 12:53 pm

    I said the injustices of this society has created a situation where a revolution is a very real possibility. The reality of ordinary people is severly bitter. Showing prosperity on paper does not change their situation. If they are commiting suicides today because of hunger, tomorrow they can start killing. Living in drawing rooms and the living in reality are two different things.Listen to what CJ Iftikhar Ch had to say about this matter two days back about the socities that can can not survive in absense of justice.

    So what I am saying is simple. In the absense of justice, revolutoins come. And to avoid it, strive for a just society.

  178. March 30th, 2007 12:56 pm

    May be of interest:
    Can Citizens Take Law Into Their Own Hands When the Authorities Don’t Do Their Job?
    http://blog.sunnipath.com/?p=53

    This question has come up from a host of recent events, including the attention-grabbing attack on a brothel by female madrassa students in Islamabad.

    Mufti Rafi Usmani talked about this in his Friday prayer sermon, lamenting that this is a manifestation of the tribulations (fitan) that we are accosted with in our times. We are seeing that common people are fed up of the inaction, irresponsibility, ineptitude, and corruption of government and law-enforcement agencies; and they are taking matters into their own hands.

    He also mentioned that many leading scholars went in person–in previous actions of these female madrassa students, in which they took over a children’s library–advising them that their actions were not Islamic, and that they need to change their course of conduct. However, in their zeal, they refused to listen to the scholars’ advice.

    Mufti Rafi Usmani said that that these students–like others–are probably sincere. But sincerity alone is not enough for actions to be acceptable. Rather, for actions to be acceptable, they have to be in accordance to the limits of the Shariah–and the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) lived within the limits of the law and urged the believers to live within the limits of the law at all times.

    Situations such as this, the shaykh said, are very dangerous, because Islam is a religion of law, and it commands its followers
    to abide by the and to remain within its limits. When there are problems with the government, its laws, or the enforcement of those laws, then it is a believer’s duty to take all legal means possible to seek to rectify matters. But one cannot take the law into one’s own hand, as this is contrary to the Shariah and a recipe for lawlessness, crime, and vigilantism–and it creates very dangerous precendents. This is a case of one problem being dealt with in ways that create many other problems.

    Mufti Rafi Usmani said that this and similar situations that we face in our times remind him of the Prophetic hadith,

    “Hasten to good works before tribulations like the layers of darkness of dark nights…â€

  179. PAKISTANI says:
    March 30th, 2007 1:03 pm

    here is my prediction, the madrassa will now TRY to make thsi a legal case try to get it to Supreme Court and then refuse the verdict becasue teh CJ is hindu. That is what they want the issue to be. This is all political theater on their part.

  180. babar says:
    March 30th, 2007 1:05 pm

    Wow,
    truly amazed by the words that the verse doesnt apply to unchaste women. You mean you can declare a woman unchaste and then you dont need to prove that she is unchaste because you have already declared her unchaste and now the verse doesnt apply to her so you dont need four witneses to prove that she is unchaste. So she becomes unchaste by default. While if you claim that a certain woman is chaste bu committing adultery and here are four witneses. But mind you she is chaste even though four people claimto have seen her commiting adultery. Truly twisted logic. Why dont you people openly declare that you guys even dont care about Quran when it comes in the way of your agenda. ( This was also evident in my discussion with Siddiqi on islamabad.metblogs.com) I am pretty sure whith this kind of reasoning you can not pass any IQ test. But hey who needs IQ to get into or pass out from a madressa.

    I realy doubt myself why should we even talk to you. But then just hoping may be some young mind may be saved from your mental corruption.

    I totally agree with the person who said that these girls are mentally disturbed. There counterparts in MMA protest agaisnt Women’s seats (being themselves women) while holding the seats at the same time. Thats what is called self hate. In Japan they used to put the feet of women in iron shoes so that they dont grow. These women have their minds put into iron. I pitty them . The culprits are the owners of these madressas.

  181. veteran says:
    March 30th, 2007 1:09 pm

    Pakistanis are immature.Look at this whole episode.Its comical, no one in the right frame of mind behaves like this. One wonders what kind of children these people must be bringing up

  182. Lahori says:
    March 30th, 2007 9:40 pm

    Adil, your main point that we are a divided nation is well proved by the comments here!

    I wonder if it is that everyone has an extreme position; or is it that only people with extreme positions leave comments?

  183. babar says:
    March 30th, 2007 1:13 pm

    Jabbar, One thing for sure. These madrassa owners and the talibat do not belong to the improvished class. As a matter of fact they are one of the most privilidged groups of our society. They are not the poor mulvi of a village mosque of 19th century. Any actions on their part will never be revolutionary rather counter revolutionary from the point of view of the oppressed.

  184. babar says:
    March 30th, 2007 1:24 pm

    By the way , this is a truly magestic innovation in criminal law. If a person is widely rumoured to have done a crime or has bad repute, then you dont need any evidence against them. I wonder why I used to hate Fascism.

  185. Jabir Khan says:
    March 30th, 2007 1:32 pm

    babar I agree with you my friend. I know where to distinguish between a mullah and an alim. in the previous standoff between the govt and this madrassah, many alams went there and tried to persuade them that their actions are unislamic. and they refused to listen. they are wrong here BUT the issue is genuine and should be been solved by the justice system.

    Only free courts can deliver justice, and look what is happening to justice system itself? Look how the highest symbol of justice the chief justice was treated? When the country is governed by ‘long arm’ people, the civic fabric comes under greater threat.

    What to do in this complicated situation?

  186. Saleem says:
    March 30th, 2007 6:34 pm

    I can agree that people are against the danda action by Jamia Hafsa. I can also agree that we shoudl wait for evidence on whether it is a brothel. But let us at least acknolwedge that if it is a brothel that is a bad thing!

  187. Jabir Khan says:
    March 30th, 2007 1:58 pm

    and as far as your previous post is concerned about the chastity. I will quote a genuine incident that happened to my friend. He was lives in posh area of Lahore. The house opposite his residence was empty and eventually rented out. The behaviour of the new residents was bizaare from the onset. After some time movie shootings started happening. And then nearly every night either they had new ‘guest’ or they ladies of the house went out late fully ‘prepared’. Always remember, the people affected by these incidents are not stupid, they get the hang of matters real fast.

    After fourth or fifth mont, the house was raided early in the morning and he witnessed the whole incident from his window. Turned out that some powerfull personlity in his street was behind the raid.

    But what happens when these people live in ordinary neighbourhoods? They threaten others and keep them quite.

    Babar saab not everybody is blessed with powerfull personalities in their mohalaahs who can throw out these brothels at a whim. It creates a void that is unfortunately filled by others (in the absence of proper jsutice).

  188. Disciple says:
    March 30th, 2007 2:21 pm

    Ú©ÙˆÛ

  189. Jabir Khan says:
    March 30th, 2007 2:25 pm

    news item :a person is prisoned for five years because he used abusive language against the president.

    this is an example of genuine fascism, only the hypocrites and bogots dont have the courage to speak against it.

  190. Disciple says:
    March 30th, 2007 2:27 pm

    Courts are not far behind.

    ’توÛ

  191. Akif Nizam says:
    March 30th, 2007 2:38 pm

    Hazrat Aisha was accused of losing her chastity once; even the Prophet didn’t speak to her for a month. I wonder if any Sahabas took it upon themselves to drag her out on the street and accost her on account of their “suspicions”. I wonder how that case was finally resolved ! Oh yeah, the Prophet and her reconciled privately and it was none of anybody else’s business !!

  192. Jabir Khan says:
    March 30th, 2007 2:58 pm

    Many times I wonder what is the mentality of the kins of people who benifit from the looting of this country through corruption and illegal means. I mean how they satisfy their concious.
    Reading many posts here cast a good light on it.

    Najam Sethi was right, the elite that came into being isntatnly after partition by means of looting has done more damage than good to this country.

    Artificial elite, artificial judgement, genuine results.

  193. Masood says:
    March 30th, 2007 2:58 pm

    Woh ho, hold your horses jayjay and tina. Prostitution ring in jamia hafsah and eliminating the competition. YOu guys do have a vivid imagination but I would like to believe that you do not really believe in it. It can be but should not do mudslinging like that. We won’t be any different from those who have made this situation. Or perhaps we are just like them.

  194. Cat-i says:
    March 30th, 2007 3:20 pm

    Many times I wonder what is the mentality of the kins of people who benifit from the looting of this country through corruption and illegal means. I mean how they satisfy their concious.
    Reading many posts here cast a good light on it.

    whatever made you think that any person here is directly or indirectly involved in corruption? But no, you don\’t need any proof of any us being involved in corruption, us being followers of a different thought pattern, is reason enough for you to vilify us

  195. Jabir Khan says:
    March 30th, 2007 3:46 pm

    cat-i are you implying country become corruption free? our country that is ranked top 10 most corrupt countries in the world 20 years in a row.

    why go too far it was just yesterday that this corrupt mafia tried to sell steel mills for 1/10th its value? so ofcourse they are protected by their kins where ever they are.

  196. PUZZLED says:
    March 30th, 2007 4:48 pm

    Why do people keep repeating the same point again and again.

    It does not become any more true the 17th time than it was the first!

  197. Cat-i says:
    March 30th, 2007 3:57 pm

    Jabir, nope I\’m certainly not implying that the country has become corruption free. But you were not referring to the country in that post of yours but to the people who\’re posting here. Somehow our posts managed to give you an outlook on what the kins of those corrupt think.
    Who gave you the right to blame us for the corruption in the country when you don\’t anyone of us?

  198. Wajiha says:
    March 30th, 2007 9:34 pm

    I think the anti-religious bias of many people shows when they condemn the attack by Jamia Hafsa but not the fact that government had failed to do anything about an alleged brothel.

    I condemn both.

  199. Sad says:
    March 30th, 2007 1:32 pm

    I am appalled at what has happened and as appalled at this discussion. What have we come to as a nation. God help us!

  200. Jabir Khan says:
    March 30th, 2007 4:44 pm

    i will repeat, this whole colapse of civil course is a result of lack of jsutice in the society. demand the CJ is reinstated and that courts work free of fear. simple.

    here is the formula.

    no justice = revolution
    justice = no revolution

    I do not dictate the above, natural laws do. As it happened in the French revolution.

  201. Disciple says:
    March 30th, 2007 6:10 pm

    Interesting article. Says some of the things discussed here.

  202. HH says:
    March 30th, 2007 9:50 pm

    OBSERVER is exactly right. The mullahs have again come to Musharraf’s rescue. Long live the military-mosque alliance

  203. Jabir Khan says:
    March 30th, 2007 6:26 pm

    Observer, your analysis is tad on target.
    To prevent these incidents from taking place again, it is time to demand that CJP reinstated without further delay.
    That ‘long arm’ minister is sent back to his home. That courts be freed from dictatorial pressure.
    That this govt show the progress on NAB.

    Remember that this govt came into power promisisng accountability. Established NAB. And now the persons accounted by NAB are part of this govt. How pathetic the situation has to become before it’s too late for all of us?

  204. Rehan says:
    March 30th, 2007 7:32 pm

    Right and wrong is not for these women to decide, why not begin complete vigilanteism? What an absolute charade, this regime lacks the ability to stand up to these fanatical goons.

  205. Neena says:
    March 30th, 2007 7:37 pm

    Did anyone watched this http://youtube.com/watch?v=yOcDmlgRoxI&mode=related&search= ?

    They are one stupid bunch who instead of working towards uplift of poor women and kids wasting their energy in useless political hooplala.

  206. bhitai says:
    March 30th, 2007 9:16 pm

    What amazes me is that I NEVER read a story where these vigilantes targeted anyone from their *own* ranks. Their hypocrisy speaks volumes, after all, why did the *police* have to take action against this child-predator disguised as a mullah. Where were the ever watchful defenders of our morality??

    HERE

  207. ATP Administrator says:
    March 30th, 2007 9:55 pm

    With commenters now repeating their points again and again, many attempts at trolling, purposeful provacation, and abuse of ATP commet policy, it is now time to close this discussion. Despite attempts to derail discussion, we at ATP will continue striving for civil and sober discourse on issues of importance to Pakistan.

  208. March 4th, 2008 5:50 am

    Any kind of operation like that in the country show the clear failure of the government policies, while the credit goes to the president of Pakistan.

    Now we are requested to give up.

    Thanks

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