Picture of the Day: Silent Against Domestic Violence

Posted on April 21, 2007
Filed Under >Adil Najam, Photo of the Day, Society, Women
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Adil Najam

Sometimes one is left completely speechless. And I was upon seeing this picture in the Daily Times (21 April) of a man beating his wife as their son looks on.


But the real story here is about a society that chooses to loose its speech and prefers to remain silent in the face of a wide scale menace of acute domestic violence and spousal (and familial) abuse of women.

This is not something that is restricted only to the poorest classes. Although it is often hidden behind ‘sufaid poshi’ such violence against women is more common in our society than most of us would care to accept. Remember, for example, the case of former Pakistan cricket captain Moin Khan who was taken in custody after beating his wife while drunk.

I wonder what the child in this photograph will grow up thinking. I wonder how many children have grown up witnessing such scenes. I wonder what such emotional scars have done to them.

It is indeed true that such incidents of violence happen all over the world. There is no evidence at all that they happen more in Pakistan than elsewhere. In terms of reported cases they may be even less. But that is not the point. This is not a competition.

Saying that it happens everywhere or that it happens even more in other places is neither an excuse nor a consolation. One case would, in my opinion, be one too many. And there are clearly much more than one. As Pakistanis – no, as human beings – we must speak against such violence everywhere; but, first within our own society.

85 Comments on “Picture of the Day: Silent Against Domestic Violence”

  1. jayjay says:
    April 21st, 2007 5:20 am

    Domestic violence is not confined to just physical abuse, although it is considered the worst form of it. DV also covers verbal and emotional harassment; restricting spouse’s (usually wife’s in case of Pakistan) powers to make decision about herself and from sharing general domestic decision-making; and limiting her rights and freedom. DV can be perpetuated by the partner or even in-laws and victims may include children of the relationship, in addition to a spouse.

    It is a shame that perpetrators in our society are often able to get away with DV by taking shelter under social norms or misused, and sometimes misinterpreted, religious injunctions. Although the crime is rarely reported, when it is reported law enforcement bodies do not take DV seriously by tacitly accepting a husband’s “jurisdictionâ€

  2. zjan says:
    April 21st, 2007 10:32 am

    This is a critical social problem and I agree that saying that it happens in other places does not make it less painful. Does anyone know if there ae any shelters for victims of domestic violence in Pakistan. If not it would be an important step to et funding to start one. Also, journalists – specially the more socially conservative Urdu journalists need to do more. Zjan

  3. Zobaria says:
    April 21st, 2007 11:24 am

    Reminds me of the verse from Meat Loaf’s song “Objects in the rear view mirror”

    “And my fathers eyes were blank as he hit me again and again and again
    I know I still believe hed never let me leave, I had to run away alone
    So many threats and fears, so many wasted years before my life became my own
    And though the nightmares should be over
    Some of the terrors are still intact
    Ill hear that ugly coarse and violent voice
    And then he grabs me from behind and then he pulls me back”

    The violence just never leaves … and the scars don’t heal.

  4. Jabir KHan says:
    April 21st, 2007 1:38 pm

    DV is a two way lane. Many men are regularly beaten up by their wives. Should not forget their plight as well.

  5. Wasiq Ali says:
    April 21st, 2007 5:38 pm

    As a society we need to become sensitive to, and consciously mobilized against, domestic violence.

    In fact, we need to sensitize our society against violence as a whole.

  6. Eidee Man says:
    April 21st, 2007 6:23 pm

    Well, the main reason is that men feel more inclined to hit because they have a sense of control over their wives. If the women were educated or in any other way not wholly dependent on their husbands for everything, their position would be a lot better.

    Of course, this goes back to education….

  7. Umar Shah says:
    April 21st, 2007 10:58 pm

    True that this may be a global problem but keeping in mind the regional context of this photo and our own religious, cultural and social values which declare that women are second class citizens either explicitly or implicitly, this scenario will keep repeating regardless of social class until we stop being hypocrites in every sense of the word and stop living in denial. Whereas men are perpetrators of domestic violence mostly, responsibility of relagating women to second class status and thus getting roughed up also lies with women to some extent.

  8. zakintosh says:
    April 21st, 2007 11:59 pm

    It’s also the story of a man beating his wife as the photographer (and the public) looks on. Bertrand Russell was right: There is no such thing as an innocent bystander!

  9. jayjay says:
    April 22nd, 2007 1:18 am

    “With no respect, you have no relationship”

    Video 1
    Video 2
    You can’t put the message better than these video ads.

  10. jayjay says:
    April 22nd, 2007 1:34 am

    It has to be the combination of

    • awareness
    • enforcement
    • social support network for victims
    • economic empowerment and independence of women

    Video 1
    Video 2
    Video 3
    Video 4

  11. Adnan Siddiqi says:
    April 22nd, 2007 2:03 am

    It’s a global issue not only in Pakistan or Asia. The other day I was readin the stats of domestic violence and honor killings in US, the figure was very high and unexpected for me atleast. The thing is such news are not so visible in local US media while they are highlited more by same western media to defame Pakistan otherwise Is Hamam me sab nangay hain .

    On the other hand, beating wife/women is one of violent acts which makes me feel ashamed as a man.Such people don’t deserve to be rated as “Man”.

  12. April 22nd, 2007 7:12 am

    [quote comment="44377"]This is a critical social problem and I agree that saying that it happens in other places does not make it less painful. Does anyone know if there ae any shelters for victims of domestic violence in Pakistan. If not it would be an important step to et funding to start one. Also, journalists – specially the more socially conservative Urdu journalists need to do more. Zjan[/quote]

    Edhi provides shelter but not in all branches.
    Btw, please elaborate on ‘socially conservative urdu journalists’. Sounds interesting…

  13. April 22nd, 2007 7:20 am

    [quote comment="44355"]Domestic violence is not confined to just physical abuse, although it is considered the worst form of it. DV also covers verbal and emotional harassment; restricting spouse’s (usually wife’s in case of Pakistan) powers to make decision about herself and from sharing general domestic decision-making; and limiting her rights and freedom. DV can be perpetuated by the partner or even in-laws and victims may include children of the relationship, in addition to a spouse.

    It is a shame that perpetrators in our society are often able to get away with DV by taking shelter under social norms or misused, and sometimes misinterpreted, religious injunctions. Although the crime is rarely reported, when it is reported law enforcement bodies do not take DV seriously by tacitly accepting a husband’s “jurisdictionâ€

  14. tina says:
    April 22nd, 2007 10:23 am

    It is my personal experience that domestic abuse occurs among the posh classes in Pakistan as well as among the poor. The reason we see this picture as opposed to a more well to do woman is that the man lives in a tent and has no private area in which to carry out his deeds.

    Observe that the son is holding a small baby. How does this make you feel?

    No suprise to me at all that Jabir and Adnan immediately start making excuses and prevarications. This is a hallmark of the conservative way of thinking.

    Jabir, your assertion that men are victimised by women is not borne out by any data. There is a very vocal group of men in England who have an organization and they flog the media with their claims that they are “abused” by women. However, the numbers are statistically insignificant; well over 90% of adult domestic abuse victims are women. Therefore the claims of abuse by men, while I don’t wish to belittle them, represent an anomoly and the actions of the “men’s rights advocates” speak more of a backlash against the women’s rights movement, and an attempt to weaken it by cheapening its claims, than any legitimate criticism of it. Jabir I am sure you did not mean to fall into this trap. :)

    Adnan, pointing out that domestic abuse occurs in places other than Pakistan is a tu qoque fallacy and does nothing to address Pakistan’s problem. We aren’t talking about the U.S. or elsewhere. We are talking about Pakistan, can we not drag the big bad old U.S. into it please. If every man in the U.S. beat up his wife every day would that make it all right to do so in Pakistan? It seems to be that is what you are suggesting, however, I hope I am wrong.

    Pakistan is still a place where people are private; they want to keep their family disputes quiet and they don’t go on Oprah and air their shame in front of millions of viewers. This is admirable and fine, but I think abuse should be an exception; a woman who is being misused should not be ashamed to seek help and the man should be exposed and punished.

    Does anybody know what happened, if anything, after this picture was taken? Was the family approached or was any intervention attempted?

  15. tina says:
    April 22nd, 2007 10:29 am

    Umar, exactly in what way are women responsible for being relegated to second class citizenry? Is it something they made a decision about? You sound like the people who used to argue that slaves brought slavery upon themselves. Disgusting.

    Oh Niqabi sisters of Lal Masajid, where are you when these obscenities are being committed? Oh wait, we can’t see her face. So everything is okay. Move along folks, no blight on society here.

  16. tina says:
    April 22nd, 2007 10:38 am

    Honor killings in the U.S. are mostly carried out by first generation immigrants from other countries (not necessarily Muslim majority countries). The last incident involved a Palestinian who killed his daughter. Of course there are too many but let’s not skew the info: it’s not Americans who are doing it.

    Domestic abuse is of course a regrettable universal. There are still too many people, men and women alike, who have no idea what a healthy loving relationship looks like.

  17. Daktar says:
    April 22nd, 2007 12:48 pm

    I am amazed at the ability of people to turn everything into something about religion.

    The previous discussion on this with Mohsin Khan beating his wife showed that this violence is not restricted to religious or wealth issues (he is neither religious nor poor).

    This post clearly points out that this is not restricted to Pakistan. The excellent videos posted by a reader above show that it is all over the world which is why these videos are there.

    The REAL issue is not whether it is there but WHAT ARE WE DOING TO STOP IT. No religion says go beat your wives. But are our religious leaders telling people to not do this. How many times have your heard a Jumma khutba against beating wives? Why do we have so many conversations about hugging and dancing but silence on beating wives? What are our politicians and social leaders doing? What about media? Do they have awareness programs on this issue? Why not have adds like the ones in the links above?

    Somehow we are so scared that talking about this will give us a ‘bad reputation’ that we are willing o overlook the pain and violence on real people. This is what I think this is about.

    Thank you ATP for having the courage to force us to think about uncomfortable and really important things.

  18. Jabir Khan says:
    April 22nd, 2007 12:57 pm

    tina, you are wrong in assuming that I am downplaying dv on women by any means, BUT it happens both ways. One should be honest in condemning both.

    http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/factsheets/ipvfacts.htm

    Second if a woman is abused in Pakistan, the international audience will only see her suffering, as the mass media will only ‘amplify’ this incident beyond proportion. If you think US domestic violence should be confined and discussed only in their boundaries, then same should happen to Pakistani cases. And here the liberal hypocrisy starts, as they will willingly and joyfully play in the hands of foreign media in condemning and blaming Pakistan. By the way is this policy acceptable by you?

  19. tina says:
    April 22nd, 2007 2:38 pm

    Jabir, this picture was posted by a Pakistani on a Pakistani website, mostly I assume for consumption by other Pakistanis, and yet as Atif points out some people immediately connect this issue with the West; what I am asking it what is driving your knee jerk defensive reaction and desire to stifle discussion of the issue by saying yet again that it’s not a problem, it’s only the hypocritical foreigners blowing the issue out of proportion. If the foreigners all shut up will the problem go away? I don’t think so. But maybe Jabir won’t have to bother himself with thinking about it?

    This is not the foreigners’ fault. There are zillions of books and television shows about abuse of women in America; nobody is trying to say that wife beating is confined to Pakistan. However as Atif correctly points out conflation of this issue in Pakistan with the Western condemnation of it has, unfortunately, had a negative adverse effect.

    and Jabir, please accept that it does not in fact “happen both ways” in any significant sense. There are no hospitals with a regular influx of men who have been beaten to within an inch of their lives by their wives, and we all know that. I’ll condemn it when it happens, but it is really so rare as to not be a factor in the discussion. Like I said trumped up efforts to make it appear otherwise are a carefully calculated backlash attempt.

    I think it is everyone’s responsibility to deplore abuse of women regardless of their national origin, and wherever it happens. I agree the press likes to dwell on the gruesome but let’s face it, they do that with every country including the U.S. not just Pakistan.

  20. April 22nd, 2007 4:26 pm

    Tina i think u should start believing that DV happens on men too, it just happened at our ATP home.

    we saw Tina bashing two men at the same time :)

    On a serious not, i think its absurd to consider male victims just now because the percentage of female victims is overwhelmingly great. Having the same law for both is not good to start off with, however is required sometime afterwards.

    I generally perceive women to be physically weaker than men (haven’t been in any physical fights :) so cant say for sure) so I think beating women and rapes r just a statement of power and dominance.

    However, a DV against men does not necessarily has to be on the lines of physical violence. In an Islamic family, a woman not fulfilling her roles as prescribed is a culprit under DV, a Christian woman not fulfilling her Christian duties as wife, mother, sister, etc is doing likewise. Same goes for men. Violence beyond the physical…

    “ They (your wives) are your garment and you are a garment for them.„ â€

  21. Jabir Khan says:
    April 22nd, 2007 4:58 pm

    tina again you are getting it wrong. The problem with our liberals is they are unbale to draw a line of respect for their country. I say do struggle for justice (if you are sincere) but do not let outer powers hijack our domestic issues. This is where our liberals fail miserably day in day out.

    Remeber the mukhtaraan mai case? You see I did support her in her struggle against her alleged culprits UNTILL she opted to sell her ordeal to foreign powers and make fun of my country. In those same days, a nurse in Delhi was so brutely raped that when she was escaping her aggressor, her eye was dangling out of her eyesocket with the optic nerve, and there simply was NO NEWS of this incident in MSM. Don’t I have a right to ask about this hypocricy?

  22. tina says:
    April 22nd, 2007 6:01 pm

    First of all the case of the Indian nurse did make the international media (check BBC) and second, to even be able to say that Mai was “making fun of Pakistan” by trying to raise awareness shows you are a long way from understanding anything about women’s problems.

    Please look at this picture above again and tell me where foreigners come into it.

    Being proud of your country should not mean being blind to its faults. Mai did not deface Pakistan to the outside world. Her rapists did that.

    Please identify the correct people as the source of the problem and take care of them, and then Pakistan will have a reputation as a shining beacon of virtue.

    Every day in Dawn or other Pakistani dailies there is some horrible story about rape or murder of women that does not make the international press. Take for example the story in Dawn a few weeks back about a young female athlete from the punjab countryside who was promised an Army scholarship and upon her arrival in Lahore, soldiers took her to a hotel room and raped and murdered her. This tragic story of a strong young woman who did not survive her ordeal did not get any international press. 99% of them don’t, in fact. Nobody in the MSM is out to get Pakistan.

    The press feeds on a diet of sensational violence, they will take it from any country whatever, and sure this is disgusting and prurient but I don’t see that Pakistan has been specially selected out. There really is a significant problem with violence against women. Foreigners will never fix this problem, however many misguided do-gooding NGOs they set up in the country. They are well intentioned (sometimes) but because they are not well received by many people their effectiveness is limited. Therefore to continually harp on foreigners hijacking this or that is just a way of saying, first of all:

    1) there is no problem, just foreigners say that we have a problem

    2) we are not responsible for fixing the problem, which we are unwilling to admit exists

    By saying this you are basically saying that the West defines and drives the whole social agenda in Pakistan and that I think is a cop-out. Pakistanis have to fight the injustice of domestic violence themselves, just as every other country has to.

    I am not going to write the same thing in different words over and over, so I am done with saying this, but the next time someone wants to cry out that foreigners are the problem in the Mukhtaran Mai case, I will ask which foreigners raped her or ordered her raped.

    And others might do well to consider it also.

  23. Jabir Khan says:
    April 22nd, 2007 7:18 pm

    You mean the case like mukhtaran mai getting hundreds of hours on MSM and an Indian case getting a teensy weensy mention on BBC site are equal? I applaud you for this masterpiece of balanced reporting.

    Can you deny her case was in a court when her handlers showed her ways of making shameless dollars? Why didn’t she wait for the verdict? Isn’t she guilty of manipulating and pressurizing the courts by playing in the hands of western MSM?

    bibi cases in courts are not to be discussed until finalized, in case you are forgeting it in some liberal fervor. Dont deny she opted to make money out of it and did not keep silent until the verdict was out.

    Second USA with 200000 rapes per annum has no business whatsoever to lecture us on our domestic problems, or hijack case like mukhtaran mai. Tell them to bring that horrendous figure to zero before pointing a finger towards other. Those liberals goons involved in her case give a damn and are only concerned with dollars attached to it. And when is the last time some American rape victim was paraded in Islamabad? If the answer is no then why is our problem magnified in their capitals?

    We will solve our problems ourselves. Hijacking of these issues by west and liberal goons only complicates things for other victims. Muktaran mai lost the support of majority of people as soon as she became a pawn in the geopolitical war that is being waged against Muslim world. But much of the blame rests with her liberal handlers. No one can deny that fact. And who knows maybe the other party was innocent and it was liberal goons who made the whole fuss?

  24. Ibrahim says:
    April 22nd, 2007 11:02 pm

    Salamalikum,

    First, food for thought: How did ATP decide that this still picture depicts wife-beating? How many people verified this outside of the photographer? Perhaps, the wife tripped and he’s trying to pick her up! No? Not possible? Are you people so naive that you can’t imagine a newspaper, which needs to affirm its enlightened side everyday, making up this story. This is especially easy for the newspaper since it fears no legal action. Is the poor gypsy going to read the newspaper and come looking for Daily Times?!!

    Nevertheless, the question is what’s the reason? To me, the reason this person is beating his wife like this is that he doesn’t have the fear of Allah in him and is not Islamically educated enough (Allah knows best). Otherwise, he won’t humiliate her and try to dominate her like this. Most probably, he doesn’t know his wife’s huqooq over him and his huqooq over his wife.

  25. Adnan Siddiqi says:
    April 23rd, 2007 1:43 am

    Tina i think u should start believing that DV happens on men too, it just happened at our ATP home.

    we saw Tina bashing two men at the same time

    hahaaha!

    @Ibrahim, you have a valid point which I wonder others didn’t think about at all including me. Experiencing last few posts at ATP gives me impression that I am reading EVENING SPECIAL newspaper who publish spicy news without verification.

  26. Fed Up! says:
    April 23rd, 2007 2:37 am

    All I can say is that anyone who thinks that an image of a man beating his wife is “spicy” deserves our collective pity!

    Interesting that people who have no histance calling someone a whore just because some people (who knows men or women) inside a shutlecock says that she is so, those same people now doubt an actual picture in a respected newspaper and want ‘verification’ before that NEWS photo (not opinion essay) is repeated. They worry about thier ‘image’ in the West but can’t even shed a single tear for a poor woman being thrashed in front of her own children!

    These, I guess are the people this post is about: SILENT AGAINST DOMESTIC VIOLENCE!

  27. Adnan Siddiqi says:
    April 23rd, 2007 3:26 am

    Fedup, it seems you have fedup of your life. Chill dude and hold your horses & read again! All i said spicy news[giving the caption "Domestic Violence"] not the Image. Nobody here backing domestic violence but yes this pic is not the proper witness whether the women is being beaten up or being supported after falling down. Don’t bring your haterd everywhere to show your utter ignorance.

  28. Jabir Khan says:
    April 23rd, 2007 3:39 am

    Shall we discuss the pathetic conditions this family is living in? Can you even see what is around them?

    Shall we discuss who is responsible for their economic misery that has not been solved in the last 60 years?

    Shall we discuss 200 suicides per month taking place in our country that has a supposedly ‘brimming’ treausry?

    All I can say is most of the DV in our society results from economic despair and a bleak future outlook.

    A person who is unable to feed his family and unable to fight the social and economic unjustices brought upon him by liberal ‘trickle down economy’ adovates………….And still he is supposed to behave rationally?

    Go and ask him what is the cause of his anger and he will grab you by your white collar and let you know on the spot. Provided ‘sahib’ let him dirty up his expensive shirt in the first place.

  29. tina says:
    April 23rd, 2007 5:58 am

    Jabir, if you knew anything about Mai, you would know that she has gone far out of her way to avoid keeping any money, just because of the criticisms of people like you. She has purchased a car and cell phone, which she needs for her charity work. That’s it. She has no new house. She hasn’t left her village. She has, as she says, not even one ring on her finger as profit. Please confirm your facts before condemning. She possibly did not disassociate herself enough from the NGOs and the harpies at Glamour magazine, but what did she know about that? She speaks not one word of English and requires an interpreter all the time. You are requiring a sophistication from her which she does not have. She wanted to speak out and she did. I am not her most ardent defender on this earth but who among us would make 100% correct decisions under the circumstances. She is an illiterate villager who struggled against her fate. It saddens me to hear that a top ranking military officer in Islamabad called her a whore in front a laughing party of wealthy upper class women.

    You talk often about thinking out of the box, but you seem unable to even contemplate a thought process outside of a few narrow talking points which are easily refuted (and also old and hoary). Mukhtaran Mai’s case got reported–tens of thousands of others don’t, you have fallen far short of proving some kind of anti-Pakistani conspiracy on the part of the media. Worse to me is that you include Adil and ATP in the said conspiracy. Because of this, it’s clear to me that it’s not just that you don’t want foreigners talking about it–you don’t want it talked about, period!

    For example, you start harping on statistics in the U.S., again—please read Adil’s own words in which he attempted, in vain, it looks like, to forestall this very debate:

    It is indeed true that such incidents of violence happen all over the world. There is no evidence at all that they happen more in Pakistan than elsewhere. In terms of reported cases they may be even less. But that is not the point. This is not a competition.

    Saying that it happens everywhere or that it happens even more in other places is neither an excuse nor a consolation. One case would, in my opinion, be one too many. And there are clearly much more than one. As Pakistanis – no, as human beings – we must speak against such violence everywhere; but, first within our own society

    enough said!

    I agree 1000% with “fed up”. People who call this sort of thing “spicy”…well, I don’t pity them, “fed up”, if you can, that’s better I suppose.

    Surprising and sad the deliberate blindness and the level of denial on this thread. Ibrahim posits that the man isn’t abusing his wife but maybe picking her up after falling!

    Right, Ibrahim, sure, okay. Whatever you say. I’ll back out of the room slowly now. And Adnan, shame on you for clinging so this attempt at deflection so quickly.

  30. Adnan Siddiqi says:
    April 23rd, 2007 6:14 am

    Saas ney bahuu ko sohar k saath mil kar tail chirak kar aag lagadi

    Saas ne bahu ko gher se nikal dia

    Biwi ne beemar saas ko ghar se nikalwadia

    Here both saas and bahu are women. I have been reading such news since childhood and find them more than any other domestiv violence news.

    Now I would like to know that whether Ms.Tina consider these examples a part of DV or not or she would again blame MEN[husbands only]. Somebody has said right, Aurat he aurat k dushman hey

  31. jayjay says:
    April 23rd, 2007 6:17 am

    Unfortunately no society, whether it is the US, Pakistan, India or Saudi Arabia, is free of the crime of domestic violence. However, this is where all similarities between Pakistan and the West end, and stark differences start. These differences are only being highlighted here to help us determine where we stand on this issue and what should/could be done to alleviate the situation.

    • Our daughters are wed off with parental instructions that only a dead body of theirs should leave their husband’s house. In other words, a married woman has no option but to live with (or die off) whatever is dished to her by her husband and in-laws. Divorce is not an option (or an option of last resort) for a Paki woman due to intense social stigma attached; divorce is ready escape for a Western woman from an abusive relationship.
    • Government-sponsored social network is available for victims in the West.
    • In the West woman are not as reluctant to report the domestic violence; in Pakistan it is rarely reported.
    • In the West qualitative data is maintained and analyzed to check this menace.
    • Doctors, nurses, social workers, teachers, psychiatrists, community coordinators and, importantly, priests in the West are trained to look into signs of DV and provide or guide towards emotional, social, physical and financial support to victims.
    • Governments in the West hold themselves responsible for constantly creating and maintaining awareness on this issues through cleverly throughout ads and pamphlets, and awareness sessions in schools– highlighting the definition (and the consequences) of the crime for men and encouraging victims to report the crime and to seek help through “helplinesâ€

  32. jayjay says:
    April 23rd, 2007 6:28 am

    Adnan: I am not absolving women (sas/bahu) from it but world knows that in 90 percent of the cases DV perpetratrors are men.

    Don’t deflect the issue by blaming the West first, then challenging the credibility of the photo and the newspaper and now resorting to sweep it all under the sas-bahu issue. DV is a henious crime and 90 percent victims are women.

  33. Tazeen says:
    April 23rd, 2007 6:32 am

    It all comes down to the concept of ownership. When human beings will learn that one cannot OWN another humnan being, be it your child or spouse, DV will minimize. We only hit out at something which we know that we own, be it your dog or your wife. So first of all, we need to learn to treat another person as an individual and not an extension of ourselves (my wife, my child), only then will we be able to treat each other with respect.

  34. Adnan Siddiqi says:
    April 23rd, 2007 6:41 am

    Jayjay, west is brought in the middle because so called enlightened class consider West a holy cow while reality is entirely different that is “purana maal nai wrapper mey”.

    It’s true men are involved in the crimes I mentioned in earlier post and if a man is not wise then we have to deal with situations mentioned above. The point is who tell a man for Bahu? Another woman that is saas. Who talks crap about saas, offcourse another woman[bahu]. A man spend 9-5 time at office,deals the offcial crap, listen things from boss and when he gets in then both parties[bahu and saas] are ready to prepare him against oponent. Sometimes saas wins while other time woman. In majority of cases a woman suffer due to other woman and we can’t eliminate this factor at all.

  35. tina says:
    April 23rd, 2007 7:26 am

    Adnan, I’m disturbed by your characterization of household life as a bunch of idle women scratching each other’s eyes out while the poor hubbi toils away to support them, and when he comes home he can’t even get his peace and quiet. I’m also disturbed by your assumption that the man is the one who controls the quarrel and holds the outcome in his hands. Makes it sound like everyone is a bunch of children in the house waiting for daddy to come home.

    Maybe the women in the house should be doing something with their time so they can’t get into so much mischief. There are tons of ways to “eliminate this factor”, women being able to do something worthwhile with their education and spare time would be a start.

    But really, while I can understand that mothers-in-law especially can make their daughters lives very miserable (usually because they are jealous of them, which is also not natural), it really doesn’t compare with marital beatings at the hands of the husbands. It just isn’t the same thing, and I doubt if the ladies are breaking each other’s bones.

    I agree with jayjay, you are scrabbling for a way to minimize the subject.

  36. PakParsi says:
    April 23rd, 2007 8:32 am

    The denigration by foreigners (particularly Westerners) may be a real fear, but it is one Pakistan needs to overcome to take care of this problem internally. We all know that western media will take one incident and blow it into an indictment of the entire country anyway, so its really not an issue to worry about.

    The issue is that dv and the even worse honor killings and rape are somewhat acceptable is shocking and problematic. Until DV is prosecuted, made socially unacceptable, and embarrassing it will continue. This isn’t a religious issue, but it is a cultural one, and not limited to the poor. DV seems to be rampant in all aspects of the society and good on ATP for bringing the issue into the light.

  37. Daktar says:
    April 23rd, 2007 9:55 am

    Making excuses that this is really about poverty and so on is nonsense just like trying to turn it into a wman-on-woman thing. The post is right THIS HAPPENS EVERYWHER AND IN ALL ECONOMIC CLASSES. We need to speak up against it everywhere. Sme time back there was a post right here on ATP about Moin Khan beating his wife. He is neither poor nor very religious. The real problem IS the one this post identifies. Too many of us (as the comments show) would ratehr remain silent about domestic violence. Unless we accept what is wrong we will never even get started on trying to solve it.

  38. April 23rd, 2007 9:57 am

    [quote]Right, Ibrahim, sure, okay. Whatever you say. I’ll back out of the room slowly now. [/quote]

    Yes Tina MADAME, Ibrahim bohat sharaartain kar raha hai, iss ko class say bahir nikaaldain…

    @Adnan: Dont be so judgmental about Saas-Bahu relations, after all ‘Saas bhi kabhi bahoo thee….’, lets not make this thread a never ending drama.

  39. Anwar says:
    April 23rd, 2007 11:09 am

    DV is widespread and it is fair to say that it is universal but must be condemned. Working with the food bank alone I was surprised at the magnitude of DV and violence against women in the US. On campus, we get yearly reminder of what needs to be reported and how to handle a situation where signs of abuse are visible on studetns.
    However, there is still a big difference and that is once DV is discoverd, law comes to the full rescue and/or rehabilitation of the victim and criminal penalties are imposed on the perpetrator. Also there are several civic organizations lending support to the victims and public service announcements in the print media and TV try to make public aware of it.
    For poor countries, lack of resources and absence of laws specific to abuse make life harder for the victims. Apathy also plays a dominant role and in some cases cultural acceptance of abuse adds to the cruelty.
    DV perhaps cannot be eliminated fully but with citizens participation in support groups, poverty reduction, and education, this menace can be minimized.

  40. Jabir Khan says:
    April 23rd, 2007 11:43 am

    Saying an empty stomach is capable of thinking rationaly and calmly is nonsense.

    Many of our well to do ‘educated’ class nealry go mad at the end of only one day of fasting in Ramadan. And still they wonder why the poor is killing his family and and himself?

  41. Jabir Khan says:
    April 23rd, 2007 1:20 pm

    She possibly did not disassociate herself enough from the NGOs and the harpies at Glamour magazine, but what did she know about that?

    Not possibly, she definitely did not disassociate herself from them.

    Her case was in the court still she acted to grab the opportunity to defame her country. Can you say it was a right decision? Can you say her lawyers didn’t warn her that this will hurt her case in court? Carry on thinking like that, weather looks lovely in your neverland.

    you have fallen far short of proving some kind of anti-Pakistani conspiracy on the part of the media.

    bibi for God sake if last 7 years are not enough to prove it is going on then what can make you believe is beyond anyone’s comprehension.

    Worse to me is that you include Adil and ATP in the said conspiracy.

    REALLY? Do ask them before becoming their spokesperson for free.

  42. Akif Nizam says:
    April 23rd, 2007 2:46 pm

    Come on people now….please move on….there is nothing to see here……don’t create a scene…. Jabir and Adnaan tell us there is no problem, so there must not be one.

  43. Jabir Khan says:
    April 23rd, 2007 4:04 pm

    Yes Akif I see a problem,

    I see an economically tattered family living in a Pakistan mismanaged by corrupt liberal extremist goons. Now do you see the same thing? or do you see an illetrate person beating his wife for fun?

  44. Adnan Siddiqi says:
    April 24th, 2007 1:37 am

    Tina, if you follow the policy of closing eyes like pigeon or a feminist than it’s useless to argue with your further. Whatever I said was on basis of news I read in papers.If you are not used to read local papers then do make efforts to read Pakistani papers. I am not here to change your mind or someone else about what’s happening in surrounding. Do believe whatever you want as it’s not making any difference nor changing the fact. The topic was Domestic violence and blaming MEN ONLY for such violence which I disagree.

  45. Adnan Siddiqi says:
    April 24th, 2007 1:41 am

    Atif Abdul Sahab, Saas k sau[100] din puray houn tu ek din Bahu ka ata hay (Source: Pakistani movie “Ek din Bahu ka”) :-).

    It seems you are die hard fan of that lame soap Saas bahu… :-)

  46. tina says:
    April 24th, 2007 10:10 am

    Adnan, I do read Pakistani papers, and they report violence against women at the hands of men every day, never the other way around, in fact I asked to discuss this in terms of Dawn and other papers and you ignored what I wrote.

    Today April 24 ONLY, as per Dawn:

    *Policeman Guns Down Two Women (one of them 60 years old, they were his relatives. He escaped)

    *15 Year Old Girl Gang Raped for Days

    *Woman and her four children shot

    *Karo-Kari family ordered by jirga to surrender their two young daughters to their accusers as punishment

    *Family Planning Clinic Bombed and nearby houses damaged

    You say I don’t read the newspapers but I think it’s you who don’t. Where are the women perpetrators here?

    Women are not doing this. To try to turn the tables over on them is really a very low ploy on your part. You have nothing else so you keep saying this. Please stop. Your stubborn blindness is a discredit to your country.

  47. Akif Nizam says:
    April 24th, 2007 10:20 am

    Jabir, in my opinion, DV is a product of having a society where women do not have any power, social or economic and they are perpetually in a dependent situation with regards to other men. The social norms does not allow her to exist without being tied to a “strong” man who can look after her needs. By implication, this attitude causes her to believe that she is weak and to accept his strength with all the “bads” that come with it, including DV.

  48. Jabir Khan says:
    April 24th, 2007 10:40 am

    Akif, I have many relatives and friends and I can say it does not exist at the level as you might want to imagine. So the question, is DV a major problem in your family?

    And people who live in countries like USA where 200000 rapes are committed per year have the audacity to point a finger at us, while all relying on third rate data provided by obfuscating quick buck mass media.

  49. tina says:
    April 24th, 2007 11:52 am

    Jabir: I see an illiterate person beating his wife to let off steam, because he can.

  50. MQ says:
    April 24th, 2007 1:49 pm

    Jabir,

    Your figures are wrong. The number of rapes in the US is much higher. But that cannot be used as an excuse to justify domestic violence in Pakistan. Another point that has made several times on this and other posts is that in the US, Europe or other civilized countries, once a case of rape or DV is reported to the police, the law takes its course and usually the perpetrators are punished under the law. That does not happen in Pakistan. In fact, in Pakistan, such crimes are often condoned in the name of honor or other medieval social values. Why? That is the point you should focus your attention on, rather than quoting irrelevant and incorrect statistics and muddying the discussion.

  51. Akif Nizam says:
    April 24th, 2007 2:03 pm

    Jabir, since DV overwhelmingly happens behind closed doors, it’s not a phenomenon that’s readily visible, nor is it something that is discussed for most part. I don’t know how old or how observant you are, but I bet if you go to your mother and ask her if she knows of any such occurances within your immediate or extended family, she might just surprise you. And yes, I do know several women in my extended family and acquaintances who have suffered from such treatment and stuck by their “man” without complain.

  52. April 24th, 2007 2:46 pm

    [quote comment="44698"]Atif Abdul Sahab, Saas k sau[100] din puray houn tu ek din Bahu ka ata hay (Source: Pakistani movie “Ek din Bahu ka”) :-).

    It seems you are die hard fan of that lame soap Saas bahu… :-)[/quote]

    The name is Atif Abdul-Rahman, Abdul does not exist without his Rahman. I am sure u made a typo and it wasn’t deliberate.

    btw, i hate that show and now i find it resembling this thread.

    useless to talk here anymore, we do blah blah blah here all day long.

    I wonder how we all look under the microscope of the ATP mods who r trying to study us and bewildered kay hum lartay kion rahtay hain, kuch kartay kion nahi.

    Ab please readers, mujh per gussa mut nikalna. Bohat hogia DV.

  53. April 24th, 2007 3:34 pm

    Tina bibi, if you remove the spectacles of feminism then you would be able to figure out what I am trying to say. The headlines you mentioned are part of WOMEN ABUSE for sure but not Domestic violence. I wish God would have given enough wisdom to make difference between two. DV doesn’t mean Women ABUSE only even men become victim of domestic violence by their fathers,brothers. Since you have started personal attack which I see as a Domestic violence against me on this forum therefore I would prefer to walk out. It’s not fun to fight with an unarmed person. Have fun and sweet dreams.

  54. April 24th, 2007 3:42 pm

    Atif sahab that was a seriously unintentional mistake and I apologize you for that. I had forgot about it while I was replying you. Surely, Adbdul doesn’t exist without his Rahman. Very well said.


    now i find it resembling this thread.

    :-). Who’s tulsi here?:D


    I wonder how we all look under the microscope of the ATP mods who r trying to study us and bewildered kay hum lartay kion rahtay hain, kuch kartay kion nahi.

    Same like Pakistani politicians look under the microscope of dictator Musharraf :-). Her dafa naya sosha chorna aur phir usper la-hasil behas ka mazay karna :-). Sorry ATP mgmt, I am just kidding! well, I am half kidding *grin*

  55. Akif Nizam says:
    April 24th, 2007 4:09 pm

    Tina, Adnan is right, you need to take off the feminist glasses and put on a blindfold, preferably pink in color. That’s how we got to the exalted place we enjoy today.

    You really need to make the distinction between DV and “women abuse”. Domestic violence is an all emcompassing terms which includes, among other things, kicking your cat, hitting your donkey, punching the wall, cursing at the TV, screaming at domestic servants etc. Battering one’s wife is just a very very small subset of DV, too insignificant to be worth discussing really. I’m afraid you are being very biased in picking and choosing the news items that you quoted. I mean, as Adnan pointed out, newspapers are full of instances where grown men are beaten to a pulp by their octagenarian fathers, aren’t they? Or fights among brothers, I mean, aren’t all these essentially the same?

  56. Jabir Khan says:
    April 24th, 2007 4:48 pm

    MQ my figures are ‘conservative’ and I used them deliberately so as avoid being in the same league as those who blow everything out of proportion. Second underreporting of rapes is major problem in the west, kindly do not deny it. Not many cases make it to the courts.

    Third, try to follow me, I am not saying we don’t have problems but we shall not let some dollar hungry liberal goon NGOs hijack these issues. In nearly all the famous cases this is what happened in the end. so doodh ka jalaa chaach bhi phoonk mar kar peeta hai.

    Akif I was going to say something but ‘observing’ your last post does not leave much.

    Jabir: I see an illiterate person beating his wife to let off steam, because he can.

    There must be a cause of his steam, I wonder what? and why is he illiterate, hmmmm dunno oh I am lost.

    I wonder how we all look under the microscope of the ATP mods who r trying to study us and bewildered kay hum lartay kion rahtay hain, kuch kartay kion nahi.

    Kiyon, larna khood say kaam nahi hai kiya?

  57. Adnan Siddiqi says:
    April 25th, 2007 1:59 am

    *grin*

    Jabir,lagta hay apna Akif Nizam sahab ke “Aqal” kal raat _Domestic Violence_ ka shikar hogaye hey jis k waja se ye behak gye hain :-)

  58. MQ says:
    April 25th, 2007 3:21 am

    Jabir Khan,

    [quote ] “Second, underreporting of rapes is major problem in the west, kindly do not deny it. Not many cases make it to the courts.”[/quote]

    Again you are muddying the discussion. A lawyer would say, obfuscating it.

    I am not denying anything. I simply corrected your estimates. The factual position on reporting such cases in the US is that only 16 per cent rapes are reported. (I am not pulling these figures from my hat.) In Pakistan the percentage is far less! But that is not the issue.

    Contrary to what you say, when a case is reported in the US or the West, it has to end up in a court and dealt with according to the law. No honor code, no SHO or a wadera, no congressman or a senator, no mayor or a governor can bury the case or force a “muk-muka” on the victim. Nor they have such dubious laws by which you can bribe the victim and let the perpetrator go free.

    [quote]“Third, try to follow me, I am not saying we don’t have problems but we shall not let some dollar hungry liberal goon NGOs hijack these issues. In nearly all the famous cases this is what happened in the end.” [/quote]

    Yes, I do follow you. No “liberal goon” or NGOs would hijack your issues if you dealt with them yourself. If you don’t deal with the issues then other will “hijack” them whether you allow them or not. This is the crux of the whole discussion. Deal with the issues of rape and DV in your society. Don’t hide them! All the “famous cases” became famous when you didn’t do anything about them.

  59. Jabir Khan says:
    April 25th, 2007 8:38 am

    MQ sahib the case of mai was in court, she was warned by her lawyers to not to follow NGO’s as it would hurt her case. She didn’t listen. There can’t be two opinions about it. Second where were these NGO’s and their mentor the West when more than 30000 Kashmiri women got raped by Indian forces? Was there similar outcry in the MSM?

  60. Akif Nizam says:
    April 25th, 2007 3:47 pm

    I think what’s important is not to demonize this man or others in his situation. He’s probably no monster; he’s doing what he knows. Like they say: hate the sin, not the sinner.

  61. jayjay says:
    April 29th, 2007 2:35 am

    In Daily Times today

  62. tina says:
    April 29th, 2007 3:59 pm

    Interesting that in this Daily Times article the pic shows a blonde woman clutching the shirt of a man. Thus bringing Westophobia into the argument without directly saying it, depicting Western women as aggressive, etc. and bringing up the totally unjustified specter of female on male abuse. (How many women are a physical danger to their husbands? Last time I checked men have 60% greater upper body strength).

    The responses of the citizens were chilling. They really think that once a man has started hitting his wife, it’s just a bad day at work (also saying his wife should accept it when he wishes to de-stress after a hard day by attacking her, something Jabir also tried to say) or it can be smoothed over or the relatives will intervene (hint: his family life is where he learned to hit women in the first place, so what help can really be expected from that quarter). Also it’s very strange to think that women will file a flood of trivial lawsuits if the law is passed. Some people apparently think that physical abuse short of murder or hospitalization is too minor to be worth invoking protective legislation (the women will go to the police over beatings that “aren’t serious enough”).

    At women’s shelter’s in the States, they teach volunteers to explain to women: he hits you once, you leave and you stay out. This may sound extreme to some, but unfortunately after many years of studying abusive behavior sociologists have learned 2 things: 1) It always worsens over time and 2) even with professional counseling the abuser almost never reforms. If the woman returns home, EVEN IF her husband enters counseling (which they often don’t want to do) her chances of being beaten again stand at 97% or better. “Anger management” does not help because abusers are not angry; they are controlling. These men say they lose their tempers, but this is in fact not what is happening. They are using terror to dominate their family, and this is a choice.

    The first blow does not come out of the blue, either; there is usually years of psychological/emotional abuse and “testing behaviors” that lead up to the first hitting, which worsens over time (statistically, it starts usually when the woman is expecting and when there is a new baby at home…because this is the time when a woman is unable to easily leave. In Canada, women are questioned by their doctors during prenatal visits about partner abuse and told that if it starts, it will be during pregnancy or postpartum). First he slaps you, then you are hiding bruises, then you are lying to the doctor who is setting your arm and wondering how it all started, you didn’t think it would get this bad when he was just throwing dishes against the wall. That’s the reality.

    That is why the motto: he hits you once, you leave and do not go back. You do not try to fix him (nor can anybody else fix him). By the time the first strike happens, a pattern of abuse must have been set and progressed past a certain point. So he doesn’t have a wife. Who cares. Not all men deserve wives, and no man who is a batterer should be married (and yes, of course there are some women who fall into this category).

    It’s clear from this Daily Times article that virtually nobody in Pakistan except for the sweeper woman understands the dynamics of abuse. Almost everything the people said is dead wrong, just simply quantifiably wrong. That’s sad and does not bode well for the success of the new law.

    I read a letter posted in an advice column, the writer was a woman from Mumbai but the mentality is the same; she had married, he was beating her, his parents lived with them and did not intervene, she went to marriage counseling, and the female counselor told her “Oh, anybody can be married to anybody as long as they are both trying their best!”

    First of all, even without the abuse issue this is totally and completely false, but with the beatings factored in this “counselor” was doing this young woman a disservice and quite possibly endangering her life. But as per the desi culture this is probably what the counselor has to say to stay in business! If this counselor was educated abroad then this is surely not what she learned to say during her training.

    The new law is all right but what good it will do with these awful attitudes in place who knows. Everything takes time I guess. At least some are starting to talk about it.

  63. N Hasan says:
    May 2nd, 2007 6:19 pm

    I realize I am late to the party here. I just found this post – in fact, I only recently found this site. (I’ve already bookmarked it, btw.) What I like about this is that an effort is made to rationally discuss issues, and to look at facts and reality.

    From Jabir’s own CDC link: “In 2002, 76% of IPV homicide victims were female; 24% were male (Fox and Zawitz 2004).”
    1. Even without adjustment, 3/4 is greater than 1/4 – and qualifies as “most.” As in, “most” DV victims are female.
    2. Adjustment is required: About half of all male battering incidents are of “mutual violence” – and half of those are initiated by the man. This leaves 12% of men actually being abused without responding.
    3. Many of those men are senior citizens battered by both men and women who are left in charge of them. Not right, but not the same as spousal abuse. Also, a small percentage are abused by their male partners. Remember, these numbers come from the US. This leaves men as the perpetrators.

    All of this is besides the point: The point isn’t about what happens somewhere else, the point is – does it happen in Pakistan? Why is it disloyal to say that it does, if it does? Even arguing (against available evidence) that it is not as prevalent as “activists” would have us believe: Why, oh why, is it a bad idea to protect women from being hurt by their families?

  64. maria says:
    May 6th, 2007 3:06 am

    …………..

    domestic violence does not only means the violence from the husband and in the houses…….
    why only BAHU burnt why not daughter of the house……….
    why women only suffer…………..
    why men not…………….
    why the dont want to gave respect or love 2 women ……..
    bcz a women is a mother ,daughter and a wife………
    ……..
    ………
    ………..
    wht can be done to stope violence against women……

  65. Adnan Siddiqi says:
    May 6th, 2007 5:00 am

    [quote comment="46362"]…………..

    domestic violence does not only means the violence from the husband and in the houses…….
    why only BAHU burnt why not daughter of the house……….
    why women only suffer…………..
    why men not…………….
    why the dont want to gave respect or love 2 women ……..
    bcz a women is a mother ,daughter and a wife………
    ……..
    ………
    ………..
    wht can be done to stope violence against women……[/quote]

    very well asked- I hope the other lady here[tina] would have ability to understand this *sigh*.

    [quote post="667"]wht can be done to stope violence against women[/quote]

    One woman starts giving respect to other woman. if women get united then men will not be able to play with them.

  66. tina says:
    May 6th, 2007 9:53 am

    Adnan—Ending domestic violence is the responsibility of WOMEN, not the men who inflict it? So therefore if domestic violence goes on it is the fault of women and men are not to blame?

    I have been giving you too much credit. There is something seriously wrong with your mind.

    As for women getting united, to be united in ideology means nothing. In practical terms this would mean women getting together in a physical sense, away from the violent men in their households, something I am sure you would not really approve of because family structure would cease to exist as we now know it. Is that what you want?

  67. Adnan Siddiqi says:
    May 6th, 2007 3:36 pm

    Actually there is something wrong in you. Your feminist mind just forces you to declare men ‘axis of evil’. Instead of coming back to me, I would request you to read my first and other posts. So far you are not able to comprehend what I am talking about and you are taking every respond against women as if Me or others who opposing you have some issue with women.

    [quote post="667"]As for women getting united, to be united in ideology means nothing. In practical terms this would mean women getting together in a physical sense, away from the violent men in their households, something I am sure you would not really approve of because family structure would cease to exist as we now know it. Is that what you want?[/quote]

    see again you dragged men in the middle. LOL! I can just laugh nothing else. what do you mean physical unity here? do you suggest that saas bahu get united physically to punch their respective husbands? if this is what you want then I am sorry you wouldn’t be acceptable for anyone. By unity here means mental harmony. It’s very easy to use a woman against a woman. You admit or or not but it’s a fact. Men shouldn’t always be blamed for the weakness of women. If one woman stop becoming part of man’s game against other woman then Man will be pretty helpless. If blaming men for everything gives you inner satisfaction then you carry on as it doesn’t hurt anyone nor it changes the reality.

  68. Arifa says:
    May 17th, 2007 2:58 am

    These are the real problems of society that we need to get rid of. But we find politics much more interesting

  69. tina says:
    May 6th, 2007 6:43 pm

    How can one not drag the men into the middle. Are they the perpetrators of the crime or are they not. You cannot seem to admit this simple fact. Instead you say now that man hits woman because he has been put up to it through scheming of other women. All Pakistani homes are not houses of discord like this, you know. Maybe on the other hand this is what you know from experience.

    The mental harmony or the lack of it among the women does excuse the man’s abuse. And if you keep insisting that man is not doing the abuse, then you are just simply wrong, quantifiably, objectively wrong.

    The problem is that you do not grasp the dynamics of domestic violence, even though this is well studied, and you do not want to grasp it because of your anti-Western bias.

  70. tina says:
    May 6th, 2007 6:50 pm

    ahem….does NOT excuse the man’s abuse.

    I should proofread.

  71. tina says:
    May 6th, 2007 8:26 pm

    I didn’t write this but it fits:

    From the perspective of those who are entitled, the problems begin when those they despise do not go along withâ€

  72. Akbar A.H. says:
    May 9th, 2007 2:30 am

    I have a dream…

    One day there will be an ATP post on a serious topic like this and it will NOT become a shouting match…. Hum daikhain gay!

  73. May 6th, 2007 11:07 pm

    No matter what the topic of discussion might be, please refrain from using such bad language. It is not just in appropriate and rude, but totally against the policies of ATP as well.

  74. Afshaan says:
    May 8th, 2007 5:05 pm

    The solution is education

    For the unparh and for the parha likha unparh also

  75. Khawaja Habib says:
    May 8th, 2007 4:10 pm

    If we just reflected on this picture rather than waste time commenting and picking fights we might learn something. Thoughtprovoking picture.

  76. Asghar says:
    May 8th, 2007 1:44 am

    yaaro, kissi cheez ko tu choR d

    If this happens it will be good… but I think attitudes here are too hard… khuda khair karey

  77. Qudsia says:
    May 8th, 2007 1:29 am

    I think if this law is passed it will be a good thing.

    At least it will be a deterrant for some

  78. Saif says:
    May 7th, 2007 1:28 am

    A frequent commenter on this blog, who also appears on this thread, to prove that people who disagree with him are wrong, repeatedly advises them, in an offensive manner, that they should take a course in History 101 or Religion 101 or Something Else 101.

    May I suggest a couple of courses he himself should should consider taking at the earliest opportunity:

    1. Etiquette 001 and
    2. English 101

  79. May 7th, 2007 1:44 am

    [quote post="667"]in an offensive manner, that they should take a course in History 101 or Religion 101 or Something Else 101.[/quote]

    :-)- actually I learnt this technique from our vetran commenter Mast Qalander[MQ] who several times advised me to take course of secularism101 *grin*

    [quote post="667"]1. Etiquette 001 and[/quote]

    I could if this course would have brought some positive changes in you. after experiencing you, it seems that course was not properly designed and had lots of loopholes.

    [quote post="667"]2. English 101[/quote]

    English is Not my first language so I have no complex at all.

    By the way saif mian, I must praise your hypocrisy. At one side you are pointing out my “offensive” manner while you yourself demonstrating same by advising me to take “english” course- Bravo my friend!

  80. MQ says:
    May 7th, 2007 3:21 am

    Mohtram Adnan Siddiqui Sahib,

    Yad aavri ka shukriyah! But I don’t remember recommending any course to you or to anyone else on secularism — not that I can remember. But if did recommend something and you seriously followed my recommendation, as you say you did, then I take it as a compliment.

  81. May 7th, 2007 4:43 am

    MQ sahab aap jaise jalil-ul-qadar shakhsiat hamesha mere dil k qareeb rahti hain.

    You missed the point. Saif that my recommendation were offensive and in reply i referred one of your reply to me. Only God knows or YOU that whether you were offending me at that time or not but I didn’t consider it offensive. I remember I in return asked that whether you were author of the book but then you got busy in your ‘qalanderiat’ and didn’t get time to reply me back.

  82. YLH says:
    May 8th, 2007 2:40 am

    “is hamam mey hum sub nangay hain”

    So we shouldn’t do anything about it… we shouldn’t try and clothe ourselves. We should start by asking ourselves some serious questions…

  83. Rafay Kashmiri says:
    May 8th, 2008 6:36 pm

    82 comments on a commentable topic

    @ Its been a year since this thread got into a very
    tight and narrow vigilance, and I was wondering did
    anyone catch the main reason for this domestic violence,
    atleast in Pakistan.

    Probably the main theme mingled with extra hyperactive arguments over men or women responsible for such anomaly.

    Well, we do miss something here very obvious and that is the absence of moral disuasive tactics in the society in order to prevent such disaster.

    You have to admit that violence is ‘bell et bien’ present 24 hours to such ferocity that a simple verbal argument turnup into a battle scene, one giving, the other receiving punches, kicks and fists, the process is somewhere disrupted by sudden reaction of apparently men who decides
    to use physical hitting on women, a moral can intervene and
    prevent this drama, but beating has no moral reason where
    as verbal arguments could be handled in the most decent
    way, for that ” A MORAL ” is required to intervene and
    prevent some one not to go too far.

    The only factor capable to do is Islamic morals in a family or between a couple or among friends, neighbours colleagues.

    A muslim is suppose to holdon to his/her anger, as hundreds
    of ahadith quoting anger as evil and destructor ,being the
    base root of violence, we have to consider the psycological
    deficiencies in human faculties as well.
    In general, all the religious morals have their reserves on the matter.

    What Pakistani society needs is return to old Islamic etiquetts, adab-o-adaam, lehaz, sharm, haya and
    zabaan, let your children call you ” aap ” and you to them
    as well, then you can see the difference.
    Myself I always adressed my Parents ( Allah maghfirah)
    with AAP even when I became father of three, but they also
    adressed me always with AAP, in turn, me and my kids use
    always AAP, we never go into angry arguments (Alhamdulilah)
    WE NEVER EVER USED ” TU TUM ” at home.

  84. Kashif Maqsood says:
    May 24th, 2008 1:39 am

    Kilaasik –
    In a discussion around domestic violence perhaps it might make sense to discuss a solution or perhaps use this as an advertising space for those that are doing good work in this area. Anyone have any thoughts in this area?

    -K

  85. Rafay Kashmiri says:
    May 24th, 2008 1:55 am

    @Akbar A.H,

    to begin with,

    Lazim hay keh ham bhi dekhain gay…….(long-term)

    84 comments with some thunderings, but
    it was’nt too bad, don’t you think ?

Have Your Say (Bol, magar piyar say)