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Punjab Medical College Expels 23 Ahmedi Students

Posted on June 9, 2008
Filed Under >Atif Mian, Education, Law & Justice, Religion
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Atif Mian

Punjab Medical College Faisalabad expels 23 Ahmedi studentsOn Thursday, June 5th, the principal of Punjab Medical College, Faisalabad, expelled every student who belonged to the Ahmadi community from the college.

A total of twenty three students, fifteen female and eight male, across the five years of medical school have been expelled as a result. Further details regarding the incident can also be found in reports from the BBC and from the Daily Times.

The Ahmadi students were “accused” of preaching their religious beliefs. The principal was pressured into expelling the entire Ahmadi student body by a mob of protesters belonging to Islami Jamiat e Talaba. The mob circled the Principal’s office and demanded the expulsions. The same day, a mob of about 300 college students also barged into Ahmadi students’ rooms, beat them and threw their luggage out of their rooms.



Punjab Medical College Faisalabad expels 23 Ahmedi studentsWhat makes this incident especially troubling is the fact that the decision to expel Ahmadi students was taken by a government-run medical school, under full knowledge of the relevant Punjab ministries.


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As an academic, and a Pakistani, I am totally appalled by this latest incidence of religious fanaticism. One hopes that the present Punjab government turns a page, and instead of supporting the forces of extremism, comes to the protection of its ordinary citizens.

Atif Mian is Associate Professor of Finance at the University of Chicago, Graduate School of Business.

225 Comments on “Punjab Medical College Expels 23 Ahmedi Students”

  1. June 9th, 2008 2:02 am

    This is, indeed, an appalling incident. As an academic and as a Pakistani I fully echo Atif’s sentiments.

    Those of us who are hurt when others are disrespectful or offensive to our faith (e.g., some Danish cartoonists) have a responsibility to respect the beliefs of others.

    Also see blog reactions to this news from TeethMaestro and Adnan Siddiqi.

  2. June 9th, 2008 2:06 am

    The Daily Times letters section had some insightful letters published on this incident. Two of them are worth reproducing in full here.

    –I–
    Sir: Among the fundamental rights guaranteed in the Constitution of Pakistan, Article 20 states that:

  3. Uzair says:
    June 9th, 2008 2:16 am

    This incident must be seen in light of what has been happening in Pakistani educational institutions in past and the rule that are stipulated by the administrations of these institutions.
    Sectarian violence has caused a lot of trouble in institutions here so most of them has banned the preaching of sectarian teachings. If the students are preaching their teachings, they are also to blame for breaking the rules. Moreover, in an institution of medical education one must concentrate on his academics rather than anything which is likely to raise controversy.
    I feel for those students and support their re-admissions in the institution but it must be noted that what they have done is not a reasonable attitude.

  4. Mohammad Arshad Qureshi says:
    June 9th, 2008 2:19 am

    From all the reports it seems that these students were persecuted simply because they are Ahmedis and the Jamaatwanted to make a point. I am a Sunni Muslim but am angered at the treatment and expulsion of these students.

    Even if the charges are true and even if they were trying to preach their beliefs, they have as much right to do so as anyone else. Certainly as much as the Jamaat.

    My own faith and belief is strong enough and firm enough that it is not threated by what anyone else is preaching. Maybe these Jamaat people should try to look into their own faith, it must be really really weak if they have to guard it against anyone with different views.

    Also, as the letter from Daily Times says, what does this say to Muslims living outside Muslim countries about their own organizations and preaching!

  5. Alamgir says:
    June 9th, 2008 2:27 am

    Uzair, I am sorry but your argument sounds too much like an apology.

    I can buy the principal of no preaching in collages. OK, if that is the rule, I can live with it. But then it has to be the rule for EVERYONE. Including, specially, the IJT. So, no preaching of any religion by anyone in colleges. I am also a Sunni and I will welcome that rule totally. But the problem is that you have preaching in the curriculum itself. what is the point of teaching Islamiat in a medical college. by your argument that should also be banned (by the way, I think that would be a very good idea to ban it). So, kick out the IJT, kick out all the mullahs from all colleges, kick out the tableeghis. Then maybe you will have a point. But right now this seems very much like the persecution of only one community.

    I am fed up of the Jamaat and these Mullahs deciding who is and who is not a good Muslim and how to “enforce” Islam. Lets leave that to Allah please. As an earlier commentator said, my faith is not threatened by someone else’s beliefs. Why is the belief of the Jamaatis so fickle.

  6. YLH says:
    June 9th, 2008 2:53 am

    Wah…

    On another board an ignorant bigoted poster was hailing this.

    Hats off to Teeth Maestro and Adnan Siddiqi for standing up for those who are discriminated against in a manner that is quite unbecoming and unPakistani.

  7. Raja Idrees says:
    June 9th, 2008 2:58 am

    I must say, I am against all religion in universities and colleges. But that should mean ALL religion. And the first step should be to ban the Jamiat hooligans. They are really a bunch of thugs and rule by fear and intimidation everywhere.

    Personally, I do not believe Ahmedi belief to be correct, but what they believe is their business and they will have to be answerable to Allah SWT themselves. It is not my business and it should not be the business of the Jamiat or the Principal of the college.

    But all discrimination is wrong. I live in Europe and incidences like this in Pakistan by the Jamiat make it more difficult for me to practice Islam here. How can I object to people saying and doing bad things about my religion here if these muslims in Pakistan are saying and doing bad things to other religions there.

    Sham, Jamiat, Shame.

  8. Dewana Phir Say says:
    June 9th, 2008 2:58 am

    It is important that there is rule of law and fair trial for everyone, at least this much all of us should agree to if we are civilised people regardless of creed. 300 of one side beating up 4 of other side is no application of law instead a violation of it.

    The question here is really not whose beliefs are correct but rather what rights one holds in a civilised democratic society and how to uphold them. I hope no one comes round and turn this discussion into a religious debate as this is not about religion but rather about fair and lawful handling of any situation.

  9. Rafay Kashmiri says:
    June 9th, 2008 3:34 am

    @ Mullah Nasreddin, his donkey,
    and their phlosophy, I can smell on this subject, I wish
    I could see guys face to face, atleast some of you.
    Specially anti-jamiat Secular Scavengers Pendoos.
    must gave enough gutts to face the truth !!
    Rafay Kashmiri

  10. zeeshan baloch says:
    June 9th, 2008 5:27 am

    its totally NOT FAIR.
    Every human ebing is indipendant.if u believe that GOD is alive.then let HIM to decide.Who are you to decide.
    If u accpt this action as a right then how u can say wrong about Denmark action.
    Be sensible
    Zeeshan Australia

  11. June 9th, 2008 5:33 am

    I think the real problem here is not the cowardice of PMC administration, or bigotry of IJT. A snake can’t do anything by bite. The real problem is the Zia ordinance XX, which basically tells Ahmadis to stop behaving like muslims. i.e., if you call yourselves muslims you go to jail. If you say salam in muslim way you can get death penalty, you can not write Quranic verses, you can not use muslim terminology, call your places of worship mosque, say azaan etc etc. This is the height of ignorance and Gen. Zia and his Maudoodite cronies displayed in in 1984. In the presence of such laws Pakistan will always be put to shame by such events. Faiz said… keh sango khisht muqayyad hain aur sag azaad.. That has literally happened in our homeland.

  12. faisal says:
    June 9th, 2008 5:49 am

    I see this decision getting revoked pretty soon, not because its a wrong decision, but because the West is going to whip is with this.

    As for me, I used to think that it was great idea to teach religion in institutes till the Mullahs started to blow everything they could not come to terms with.

  13. D_a_n says:
    June 9th, 2008 6:37 am

    I believe that the Political leadership of the JI needs to be held accountable for the deliberate actions of the IJT as IJT is the evil spawn of the JI…

    the IJT leadership has NEVER been held to account in a serious fashion even after the anti-Pakistan thugs of the IJT manhandled Imran Khan and handed him over to the agencies….
    but I guess asking the JI to be held to account for such mundane stuff is asking a lot especially considering we have not even mustered up he courage to ask the JI to explain its resistance to the creation of Pakistan…
    serves us right…for a shameless…spineless…sycophantic nation of people we are..

    PS: at least the JI/IJT are equal opportunity thugs…they go after Muslim and Non Muslim Alike! :) bless their hearts!

  14. Anwar says:
    June 9th, 2008 6:40 am

    Another round of lunatics taking over.
    Regardless of beliefs all Pakistanis have equal rights..
    Frankly, most minority students excel and that attracts hostility from the mediocre minds.
    Let us hope that the expulsions are reversed, JI thugs return to barracks, and the principal is fired for not upholding principles.

  15. June 9th, 2008 7:15 am

    I was a medical student and it is about saving lives of all human beings regardless of religious belief.

    My Ahmadi friend at this College had all his possessions burned and he left Pakistan with only the jacket on his shoulders.

    Now he is a doctor in England.

    Who loses ? The innocent population of Pakistan

  16. Hamid Ch says:
    June 9th, 2008 7:27 am

    It’s actually the Jamaat students who should be expelled for harming life and limb and destroying property of their fellow students.

    It’s amazing Pakistani tax payers are paying to educate these fanatics.

    Welcome to the Democratic Pakistan. Give me dictatorship anytime.

  17. Zecchetti says:
    June 9th, 2008 7:44 am

    It is necessary to look at the complete picture here. These Ahmadi students, who believe Ghulam Ahmad Mirza to be both the mahdi, and ‘Isa alaihi salaam at the same time, have been preaching their falsehood at university using their fabricated ahadeeth and a contradictory understanding of the Qur’an.

    This is a very serious crime. If one true Muslim was to become an Ahmadi, it would render all of his deeds in this life as dust and in the Hereafter they would be of the losers! Wake up fellow Pakistanis! This is more than freedom of religion, this is outright misguidance! Such students should not only be expelled from the university, but from also from the country.

  18. Dewana Phir Say says:
    June 9th, 2008 7:44 am

    You can leave your comments at Punjab Medical College Guest Book;

    http://pub20.bravenet.com/guestbook/show.php?usernum=1632642458&cpv=1

  19. Mustafa says:
    June 9th, 2008 8:36 am

    Mohammad Arshad Qureshi and Others who thinks every one is allowed in Pakistan to preach their belief, you must understand Pakistan is a not a secular country unlike India, Usa , in these states there is no such restriction in law, but you are living in a Muslim country and other people from other believes are free to practice their belief but Pakistani law doesn’t allow them to preach their belief, i don’t find anything wrong in Academic Council’s decision as far as it was proven that those guys were involved in preaching their believes.

    also you will find many countries (even some secular) where construction of mosques is banned.

  20. Masroor Ahmed Siddique says:
    June 9th, 2008 8:42 am

    @ Mr. Zecchetti tell i guess i answered your question in my last comment need to look at the complete picture, what exactly do you mean by that, it clearly shows that you dont have trust in strength of your own belief, if that is what you want to say then there is nothing left to say, if Christian priest come to the people and started preaching then they should also be expelled from the country right what a pathetic thing to say, I am living in UK and if I told someone about Islam should they through me out of their universities or should they through me out of country, no they wont, in fact they can’t, this is not pakistan where nobody can practice their rights and religion, and Alhamdollillah I am a proud muslim, and I do tell people about Islam in my uni but I havent faced any problem till now in 3 years, nobody called me terrorist, or anything like that, so please wake up and stop spreading hate about your own country fellowmen. Peace!!!!

  21. jusathot says:
    June 9th, 2008 8:43 am
  22. June 9th, 2008 8:44 am

    Zecchetti {It is necessary to look at the complete picture here. These Ahmadi students, who believe Ghulam Ahmad Mirza to be both the mahdi, and

  23. MK says:
    June 9th, 2008 9:19 am

    If the law of the land allows it then no one should intervene. And more importantly no one from Jamiaat or any other party has the right to judge if what these students were doing was actually ‘preaching’. It is only the court of law that can make such judgements and pass on rulings accordingly. To me it is not more of a religious issue but a social ill. We Pakistanis have taken up the habits of our leaders in that we flaunt the law and dis respect it at all times. There is no concept of involving judiciary for justice. We are deteriorating into a society that provides street justice (or atleast tries to do so). Aren’t the Karachi incidents of burning of the robbers a pointer to this attitude.
    Also note how most of the commenters had to clarify their religious affiliations before commenting on the issue.
    For the rest of us we should consider there is more to it than meets the eye.

  24. faraz Waseem says:
    June 9th, 2008 9:44 am

    Well any response from Shebaz sharif government yet? I fear that right minded Sharifs will support such incidents.

  25. Ayaz Siddiqui says:
    June 9th, 2008 9:49 am

    Since Pakistan came into being, our favourite slogan has been

  26. Qaiser says:
    June 9th, 2008 9:56 am

    I think it will be a disgrace on the pakistani government if they do not take an action to this outrageous act by the principal of this college.

    If thats the case, why dont they just expel these people from the nation? whats the point of having them in the nation when they dont give them the right to practice their faith, to preach, even as to greet someone in an islamic manner, and now to basic education. Wont that be better for these people and the nation as well, such that the mullahs they support or are succumbed to will be happy.

    I am sorry to say but its a disgraceful nation.

  27. Another Liberal Elite says:
    June 9th, 2008 10:01 am

    Mustafa, what nonsense are you talking about (this think about other religions are not allowed to preach because we are a Muslim country)

    Have you read the Constitution of Pakistan (see second comment on this thread). Or the Quran!!!!

    What you are proposing would be against both!!!!

    And, please don’t make up things. Can you please list for me which countries have “banned” building of mosques? Please do, otherwise don’t spread lies.

  28. Waseem says:
    June 9th, 2008 10:17 am

    It

  29. June 9th, 2008 10:38 am

    Hai, kya ya loog bewaqoofi say islam to sambhal sakain gay.

    Kash koi in kay uksanai waloon to sarai aam jotai mar sakai, laikan afsoos hamarai rakhwaloon nay choorian pehan rakhi hain. Pakistan is govenment nay choorian pehan rakhi Hain.
    Aur hoo skta hai kay surkhi bhe laga rakhi hai.

    Sharam Sharam in loogon pay afsoos

  30. Sceptic says:
    June 9th, 2008 11:03 am

    This incident only goes on to confirm my belief that all religions should be banned from all public institutions and public. Where religion comes in, humanity and compassion goes out of window.

    Religion — any and of all kinds – is just another form of superstition and ignorance. It justifies discrimination and subjugation of people. A religion readily attributes a (false) sense of self-righteousness to its adherents, often resulting in violence and bloodshed. We, in Pakistan, don

  31. Tina says:
    June 9th, 2008 11:40 am

    Somebody here ws posting that Pakistan can never become another Taliban-controlled Afghanistan. It increasingly looks like that may not be true. When law and order breaks down far enough, the people will get so sick of it that they will ask the mullahs to control it, because they will be the only ones with any power, as demonstrated by the helplessness of the school in the face of radical insistence.

    I hope this is proved wrong.

  32. Ibrahim says:
    June 9th, 2008 12:04 pm

    I read this post, the BBC article and the Daily Times article. It seems like this matter was going on for some time before the protest occurred. Outside of the matter of protest, I completely agree with what has occured. IJT is nothing more than slogan mongaring, protesting people now, but still they have benefit. And, it doesn’t seem like protest was their first action (although today I won’t put it across IJT to make protest as the first “resort”).

    Of course, the rights of minorities are protected in a Muslims. Their right to practice their religion, property, health, etc. But, nobody is allowed to preach his religion in a Muslim country. Forget about what West does or doesn’t do in this case. Islam is not run by what West thinks. If people following religions that are spread out in the West don’t emphasize limiting the preaching of religions, it doesn’t mean that if somebody else does it, it has to be wrong.

    Elite, you kept accusing others of lying in another post. Now, show me where does it say in the Qur’an that in a Muslim country, non-Muslims should be freely allowed to preach their religions. Show me. Practice, yes. Preach, no. As for the constitution of Pakistan, send me a copy, and I’ll use it to blow my nose.

    When Rasoolullah (saw) expelled the Jews from Hijaaz, what would you call that? Did Rasoolullah (saw) violate the principles of Islam that protect the minority? No, but this action was taken because the Jews failed to live up to the conditions that allow them peaceful living in a Muslim country/state. Same thing today: One of the condition for Qadiyanis here is that they shouldn’t do missionary works no matter what the constitution says because that’s the principle that Muslims follow and want. What about Abu Bakr going out to deal with murtads in Arabia? Was that also a violation? There are many examples.

    The point in this story should be whether the investigation was fair. But, not surprisingly the post and most of the comments argue about the validity of the act of expulsion from the university. If these students preach for even a minute, they should be first warned and then expelled. I take that the investigation was fair, going by The Daily Times article. However, the university is going to do another investigation.

    Also, clearly, it seems like the Qadiyanis did tear up posters that were put against them and against the finality of prophet hood; however, the spokesperson for them didn’t admit to tearing up the posters of the finality of prophet hood (read the BBC article).

    Somebody suggested that IJT should join hands with others to do good works, which I assume include Qadiyanis, rather than create issues. Yes, Muslims can join hands with others in ma’roof…in goodness. But, of course, with conditions and the right circumstances. Allowing Qadiyanis to preach in a Muslim country while “joining hands” with them is healthy at all.

  33. RJH says:
    June 9th, 2008 12:20 pm

    A shameful and cowardly act by Punjab Provincial Government and its lackeys.
    Islam teaches us tolerance and understanding not bigotry.

  34. Aamir Ali says:
    June 9th, 2008 12:23 pm

    Ibrahim:

    These students deserve their education, and their rights, despite being Qadianis. A jahil mullah like you can never understand that.

    Jahil Mullahs are all about attacks and restriction, they never build anything.

  35. Zecchetti says:
    June 9th, 2008 12:24 pm

    @ Ibrahim

    MashaAllah, finally a Muslim who actually has knowledge of his religion shows up on this site. You are absolutely right in that non-Muslims are allowed to practice their religion in an Islamic state. However, they must do so in their EXISTING churches, temples, synagogues etc. It is forbidden for them to open new ones, and it is forbidden for them to preach kufr – hence it is called an Islamic state, one that proclaims La ilaha illallah.

    In the time of Abu Bakr RA’s caliphate, there was a false prophet called Musailmah Al Kazab. Abu Bakr waged jihad on this man and all his followers until they were crushed. Whoever opposes Abu Bakr’s view and methodology, and instead chooses the western view (batil), is at best a jahil fasiq.

    My humble message to Pakistanis (and I myself am of Pakistani parents) is to give up nationalism. Our ummah is one ummah, and it is not permissable for us to divide ourselves along the lines of nationality. It is time to strive for the return of the caliphate system. If you look to history – it is only under that caliphate that Muslims and non-Mulims have lived in peace and harmony. No poverty, no hatred, no corruption. Economic liberation. No taxes, except the zakat, yet an abundance of wealth and prosperity. This is how Allah rewards the believers.

  36. Zecchetti says:
    June 9th, 2008 12:36 pm

    @ Jameel,

    While I tend to agree with you, I believe you have distorted some truths.

    Non-muslims cannot be killed as you have described. The Islamic State (khilafah) offers the enemy government 3 options:

    i) accept La illaha illallah and rule your people in accordance with Allah’s book, under the authority of the caliph.

    ii) stay non-Muslim, give up your power, but remain in your lands and pay the jizyah.

    iii) engage in battle with the Islamic State, and if the Muslims win, they take the land and rule over the people with Allah’s book. The non-Muslims have to then pay jizyah, or else are expelled from the land, just as Rasulullah (SAW) expelled the Jews from Hijaz for breaking their agreement with the Islamic State.

    So, non-Muslim civilians are never killed in any of the 3 options.

  37. June 9th, 2008 12:38 pm

    What a shameful act by a educational institution. Our Prophet will be so ashamed of these biryani mullahs and these internet savvy Jahilia who are preaching killing of non-Muslims unless they convert. Last year Sheikh Goma of Al Azhar has proclaimed a fatwa saying it is up to Muslims to decide on their relationship with God or Gods or Goddesses.

    And as a side note, how pathetic is the JI’s faith that they are threatened by a sect (of Islam) that is just over a hundred years old and believes that Jesus died in kashmir (which could be the case, but it is a lot less plausible then the miracle of Quran and the life of Muhammad Pbuh). For a true Muslim, and to borrow from Porsche advertisment, there is no substitute.

  38. June 9th, 2008 12:41 pm

    This is a very disturbing incident.
    Hooliganism at best but more likely a part of a sustained effort to target the very Pakistaniat of Pakistan. Blowing up our leaders, fortressing madrassahs, and expelling students from universities…what’s next? Chopping one’s finger if you accuse a maulvi, or blowing a hole through one’s head if they argue about religion?
    Having read Ibrahim’s comments, I don’t know if I should be angry or just grieve for Pakistan. As I heard another friend from Karachi say: “Pakistan kee Inna Lillah parh lo warna shayad moqa bhee naa milay”.
    Pakistanis are stuck between a rock and a hard place. Those who can, have their bags packed to leave the country at a moment’s notice. Others are slowly giving up on the situation ever getting better – at least in their lifetimes. When the educated and the moderate leave, the country will become feeding ground for the morally corrupt religious mafias. And then carpet bombing begins – as has happened in countries like Sudan and Afghanistan. Its hard to become individualistic – to care for the family and to get them out before that happens.
    What a sad moment in our history. I am trying to recruit faculty for Pakistani universities – just now got an email asking to help recruit faculty for GC University. How can I? I can’t even convince myself to live there.

  39. Aamir Ali says:
    June 9th, 2008 12:46 pm

    Zecchetti:

    Please move to Waziristan, that is the place for you. In the Pakistan that currently exists, we want our country, rights, democracy and freedom. We do not want to live in a religious dictatorship.

  40. Zecchetti says:
    June 9th, 2008 12:49 pm

    @ Aamir Ali

    No thank you. Muslims prefer to live amongst Muslims. The only religion acceptable Allah is Islam, so since you prefer other ideologies, such as secularism, democracy etc, why don’t you move to darul-kufr, such as America, UK, or even Denmark?

  41. Mahmood Ahmad says:
    June 9th, 2008 12:52 pm

    We Ahmadies do not expect any good from our fellow countrymen or justice from the system. The long marches for a free judiciary is only for their own selves, when it comes to Ahmadies it is different, their minds are peluted with prejudice and hatred but irrespective we will continue to practice LOVE FOR ALL HATRED FOR NONE.

    The founder of our community Hazrat mirza Ghulam Ahmad gave us a message that “GAALIAN SOON KER DUA DO PAA KER DOOKH ARAAM DO”. We have believed and practiced that now for more than 100 years and will Insha-Allah continue doing that. You try to shrink the world around us Allah Insha-Allah will open new avenues for us, we do not carry any doubt even at the back of our mind that he won

  42. Khurram Ahmad says:
    June 9th, 2008 1:09 pm

    Assalam-o-Alekum.
    Humbly submitting, there is a lot of talk here about Muslims and Non-Muslims and what should or should not be allowed in a Muslim state. I would like to pose a very simple question to these able writers and readers: What is the definition of a Muslim? Is it not, simply proclaiming La-Illaha-Illalah, Muhammdur(SAW)-Rasoolullah. Or is the Pakistani Constitution’s ammendment of 1973 decides who is a Muslim, or Genral Zia-ul-Haq’s ordinance in 1984 decides what can and cannot be done in a Muslim state? We keep quoting Muhammad (SAW) example for expelling Jews. What about the victory of Mecca. What about Omar (RA) conquest of Jarusalam. What about: “There is no compulsion in Religion” (2:257). or “For you your religion and for me my religion” (109:7), or “and let not a people’s enmity incite you to act otherwise than with justice. Be always just” (5:9). As far as preaching goes, the Holy Quran’s definition is only to preach good and forbid evil (3:111). Certaily the constitution of Pakistan cannot be the measure of what is GOOD. (Please note that if you do not consider Bismillah as the first verse of each Surrah then subtract 1 from the above references).
    So I urge you all to reach within and understand what is going on. To erase the Kalima from a Qadiani mosque is still erasing Kalima, irrespective of where it was being displayed. To forbid a Qadiani to call for Azan is still forbidding the name of Allah to be glorified that many times. Unless and until you are all knowing (Naoozobillah), do not be too quick to pass judgement.
    Thank you

  43. Mahmood Ahmad says:
    June 9th, 2008 1:12 pm

    CORRECTED WITH SOME ADDITION
    We Ahmadies do not expect any good from our fellow countrymen or justice from the system. The long marches for a free judiciary is only for their own selves, when it comes to Ahmadies it is different, their minds are peluted with prejudice and hatred but irrespective we will continue to practice LOVE FOR ALL HATRED FOR NONE.

    The founder of our community Hazrat mirza Ghulam Ahmad gave us a message that “GAALIAN SOON KER DUA DO PAA KER DOOKH ARAAM DO”. We have believed and practiced that now for more than 100 years and will Insha-Allah continue doing that. You try to shrink the world around us Allah Insha-Allah will open new avenues for us, we do not carry any doubt even at the back of our mind that he won

  44. PakAm Muslim says:
    June 9th, 2008 1:18 pm

    Again @ Mahmood Ahmad:

    I think what ever Qadiani Khalifa II, Mirza Mahmood Ahmad did to Muslim children, now Muslims are doing to his children i.e. Qadianis.
    I have given detail in my earlier post on page 5.
    I wonder if poster Mahmood Ahmad has some thing to write to justify INJUSTICE and INFAIRNESS of his QK II???

  45. edward says:
    June 9th, 2008 1:20 pm

    I studied with an Ahmadis and some were quite gifted. Pakistan seems to be going backwards in the world. Well it’s a loss for their mother country since these students end up going elsewhere. These situations leave them no choice but to emmigrate. Oh well the world needs more doctors and our country is looking for them. My thanks to fanatics and clerics of Pakistan for helping us import the doctors from your nation.

  46. Qasim says:
    June 9th, 2008 1:35 pm

    Pakistan is sealing its fate. It is destroying itself from the inside. If the leadership of Pakistan has even an iota of ethics or respect for Allah and Islam, they will overturn this atrocity this instant. If they wish to continue down this path of self destruction, they’ve taken another huge step towards that target. May Allah have mercy on Pakistan.

    I have no doubts that Allah will reward the 23 students expelled beyond their wildest prayers, Insha’allah.

    Chicago, USA

  47. Mahmood Ahmad says:
    June 9th, 2008 1:47 pm

    The family of Hazrat Maulana Hakeem Nooruddin Khalifa Awal (1) is known to all of us and is given due respect. I do not want to comment or negate PakAm Muslim on the face value but instead promise to find out the truth for him if I can.
    With Loving Care,
    MA

  48. Eidee Man says:
    June 9th, 2008 1:48 pm

    I wonder if the newly elected “lion” of Punjab, Shahbaz Sharif will have the guts to deal with this issue.

    It’s both disturbing and amusing to see radicals from the Jamaat and such trying to take ownership of Pakistan, when historically, they were actually against the creation of Pakistan in the first place.

  49. Rafi says:
    June 9th, 2008 1:53 pm

    What a sorry state this beloved country of ours is in. Those training to save lives are punished for their so called ‘heretical’ beliefs. The people in power will of course turn a blind eye to this latest incident (yet another nail in the coffin of our nation) because they have no courage to stand up for the down trodden in our society. Nations are judged by how they treat their minorities. Sadly by this measure our nation is amongst the lowest of the lows.

    Paraphrasing Pastor Martin Niem

  50. jusathot says:
    June 9th, 2008 2:02 pm

    @Ibrahim: With due respect,

  51. Waseem says:
    June 9th, 2008 2:06 pm

    Ibrahim,

    I am afraid you seem to be much weird and ignorant…

    You said that the rights of the minorities are well protected in Pakistan!!!!!!!!!!!.

    How do you justify the act of Bullying, Detaining, Beating, Looting, Killing, Depriving the rite of education of the minorities??
    Do you think their rights are protected?
    Is that what Islam teaches you?

    Are you saying that the posters that Jamaat-e-Islami put on walls showing and insulting the believed Reformer of the age (Imam-e-Mahdi) of Ahmadis is fine? Religion teaches tolerance and not to give bad names to any one and to respect ones religious leaders. Why did the Jamaat-e-Islami put up posters which were to defame Ahmadiyyat and insult their respected religious leader?

    If they were right then why did the Muslims all over the world react to the cartoons of Hazrat Muhammad (saww) made by Denmark which was a non-Muslim country. The protest was because we love the Prophet Muhammad (saww) and hold him dearer to our lives. Similarly as Ahmadis, we also have a deep love for the Holy Prophet (saww) and his Imam-e-Mahdi of the time [Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian (AS)].

    Its very bad an un Islamic to twist the sides by saying this is an Islamic country and could do what ever it wants. Being an Islamic country should mean to protect and safe guard the rights of minorities more that what the west does and set up examples for them rather then doing actions that declare us terrorists. Don

  52. Anwar says:
    June 9th, 2008 2:08 pm

    After reading some of the posts I am afraid similar events may occur on other campuses as well – JI capable of spreading this fire all over the country.

    I also suggest moderating posts that advocate hate and violence

    God help us all.

  53. Dewana Phir Say says:
    June 9th, 2008 2:12 pm

    @jusathot: There are good laws and there are bad laws. Laws that enforce slavery of any kind whether based on colour or on religion are bad laws. There is general consensus among the majority of world population on this.

  54. Haroon Saeed says:
    June 9th, 2008 2:15 pm

    AoA!

    This is really sad news and we should condemn it. No matter what ever one’s religious affiliation is, he/she shouldn’t be treated like this at all. I also agree with the comment that the so called lion CM of Punjab would dare do any thing against it…

    Regards,

  55. Dr. Haider says:
    June 9th, 2008 2:16 pm

    I do not blam Jamiat for what they did because that’s what they are good for. I don’t like when people call them Mullah’s because in my view they have nothing to do with Islam. They don’t hesitate beating up and even killing other people regardless of their religion. Imran Khan is an example and another time when I was in the University a fight broke out between Jamiat and other student organization (which were all muslims) and they (Jamiat) ended up killing the head of other student organization, and so university was closed for several weeks. In my views they are group of thugs set lose in our institutions.

    I hold only college principal responsible at first and then Government of Pakistan that why they haven’t fired the principal yet or atleast started the investigation. This is no small matter it is a matter of 23 students future.

    I hope that these student will take their case to court asap and then after its ruling we should comment if Justice is still possible in Pakistan.

  56. Tayyib Rashid says:
    June 9th, 2008 2:26 pm

    It’s truly amazing how the extremist mullah’s in the name of protecting Islam continue to do things that present Islam in such a distorted manner, that Islam becomes the laughing stock of all religions to the rest of the world. I wonder, have any Christians, Hindu’s, or students of any other religion been expelled from this university because of their religious beliefs? I have never heard of such a thing! The Pakistani intellecuals are leaving Pakistan due to limited opportunity as it is and instead of trying to conserve and retain these intellecutals and professionals, we keep pushing them out and breeding more and more ignorance. This is the reason why in the history of the Nobel Prize, only ONE muslim has ever won this honor. And even that person, Dr. Abdus Salam was an Ahmadi. And if the Muslims consider Ahmadi Muslims to be non-muslims, then that means that in a population of over 1 billion people, NOT a SINGLE person from among the Muslim Ummah has ever won this prize.
    When will the Muslims wake up? Until and unless the Muslims as a whole will not respect and protect the rights and beliefs of minorities (both muslim and non-muslim alike), Allah will continue to punish us at the hands of other nations.

  57. Dewana Phir Say says:
    June 9th, 2008 2:55 pm

    “This is the reason why in the history of the Nobel Prize, only ONE muslim has ever won this honor. And even that person, Dr. Abdus Salam was an Ahmadi. ”

    When talking of Nobel Prize in science there is one more now; http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/chemistry/laureates/1999/zewail-autobio.html

    But point taken that given the population of Muslims there are not enough good intellectuals.

  58. Eidee Man says:
    June 9th, 2008 2:55 pm

    Agree with Dr. Haider. Tayyib, actually, a number of Muslims have won Nobel prizes, in addition to Abdus Salam…Mohammed Yunus from Bangladesh, Yasser Arafat, Ahmed Zewail from Egypt, etc.

  59. Shuaib says:
    June 9th, 2008 2:59 pm

    If this act of perpetration is according to the limits of Islam, then all of the Muslims should not go to the Developed Christian and Jewish states for the sake higher education, who are killing and degrading Muslims on every ground, and so drown further into the ignorance with these obstinate views of protecting islam in such a manner.
    But this would not happen because we all are selfish and we only do the things for our own interest. Certainly their would be some personal interests of JI behind this, otherwise love for Islam never leads towards cruelty which itself is prohibited in islam.
    Moreover Muslims are beaten up all over in the world nowadays and so by doing such kind of things with the minorities in Muslim countries, they actually revenge their debasement. But they should keep in mind that such illogical steps would further lead to their humiliation in front of the world.

  60. ali says:
    June 9th, 2008 3:17 pm

    Hello all,
    i would strongly denounce this sad incident whic has taken place in medical college.its not only against the teaching of islam but also against basic human rights that somebody is not allowed to complet their education because of thier religion or beleif.its shame for the whole society and it tells a lot which way is our beloved pakistan moving.

  61. Tayyib Rashid says:
    June 9th, 2008 3:18 pm

    To Eidee Man and Dewana Phir:
    Thank you both for correcting my mistake. I was remembering this some years back in college when this was still the case. But still given the number of Muslims in the world, we have virtually no representation in the fields of science, technology, and advancement. My point in stating that was that our so called “Islamic” society as it exists today, rather than enhance both spiritual and worldly knowledge, in reality actually supresses and retards it. It’s no wonder that even those Muslims that did win the Nobel prize in their respective fields, were mostly educated in the west and not in the Muslim educational instituations. It is extremely disturbing to me as a Pakistani to know that this kind of behavior is being encouraged at the highest level of intellectual institutions in my country.

  62. Eidee Man says:
    June 9th, 2008 3:27 pm

    Pissing of the Ismaili’s would be hard..because that would mean you get rid of AKU :-)

  63. Dewana Phir Say says:
    June 9th, 2008 3:33 pm

    “Pissing of the Ismaili

  64. Another Liberal Elite says:
    June 9th, 2008 3:56 pm

    For Ibrahim and for Zecchetti who seems to support him.

    You say you WANT TO BLOW YOUR NOSE WITH THE CONSTITUTION OF PAKISTAN. For once the Mullah’s are giving honest statements

    I guess if you hate Pakistan that much I have nothing to say to you.

    I guess this proves, again, that Mullahs never wanted to create Pakistan and now that it is created they are doing everything to destroy Pakistan. From suicide bombings to violence against minorities to saying how they want to “blow their nose” with the constitution of Pakistan. I guess you want to also burn Pakistan’s flag, kill all Pakistanis and see Pakistan destroyed.

    For those of us who love Pakistan, your message of hate for Pakistan which you have finally exposed here is just not acceptable.

    So, please go to a cave somewhere with Osama and other and leave us Paksitanis alone. We want nothing of you or yours. While you want us killed and dead, we do not want to kill you. We just want to be left alone to live normal lives without your message of hate.

  65. Tina says:
    June 9th, 2008 4:16 pm

    Ibrahim says he would “blow his nose on the Constitution of Pakistan”

    That is basically the sum of Pakistan’s problems, isn’t it true?

    In the modern world religion has no place in the sphere of government and public institutions. The covert, underhanded persecution of non-Muslims recommended by Islam–that is, taxing and restricting non-Muslims out of existence–is better than conversion at the point of the sword but not by much. It is still discrimination on the basis of religion. It does not belong in twenty-first century governance and is a violation of the human rights of the sufferers.

    The only countries in the world that have any future are those which practice public sector secularism. America itself is veering dangerously close to abandoning this principle and we can see the result.

    Jameel, when you write that even people who have never heard of Islam are doomed to hell, you do know that you sound just like a fundamentalist Baptist preacher, don’t you? That’s the lynchpin of their philosophy and the root of all their busybody missionary activity.

    American Baptists have cross-pollinated fundamentalist Muslim movements to a great degree. Sometimes Muslims just take Christian missionary documents and copy them wholesale, substituting “Allah” for “Jesus”. The first time this happened was documented in Turkey, although cases have turned up in Egypt as well. This makes for funky reading when you get to end-times beliefs :)
    The whole phenomenom is an interesting subject. Jameel, you should find out something about it. You would be surprised how many of your *Islamic* ideas have their roots in the American version of Christianity.

    Really, you sound like an MK (missionary kid). it’s not just the Ahmedis who have changed their beliefs over the years. Like them, the Salafis and Wahabis are the result of certain changes and processes that have taken place over history. The Wahabis do not represent a “pure” or “original” Islam any more than any other group of modern Muslims.

    There’s been a book written on the subject of Christian propaganda and its influence on Muslims, if I can locate the title, I’ll put it on here.

    Cheers, all.

  66. Eidee Man says:
    June 9th, 2008 4:16 pm

    I can’t understand the viewpoint of people who are against Qaidianis spreading their ideas. If you think this is such a dangerous idea, then are you not simultaneously admitting that your religious ideology is somehow weaker? If so, then you should start by asking your family to stop watching Indian TV (good luck with that) because they are much more likely to turn Hindu, than medical students are to become Qadiani.

  67. MQ says:
    June 9th, 2008 5:31 pm

    This is the tragedy of Pakistan. When we seem to be getting out of the clutches of the military we land in the lap of the mullahs.

  68. Jameel says:
    June 9th, 2008 5:35 pm

    @Eidee Man

    TV used to strictly Haram in Islam and was considered Shaitaani device by ulemas in my childhood days. With the advent of Zakir Naik, Amir Liaquat Hussain, Late Professor Ghulam Murtaza (I hope I remember the name correct) on NTM, Al jazeera TV etc, it has become an essential medium for preaching Islam and I am afraid taking it away from our families will not only take them away from these beautiful preachers but also it will be difficult to find the latest views of Hazrat Maulana Fazal ur Rahman mudzilah Aleh.

    Loud Speakers and TV have much to share in common when it comes to Ulemas :)

  69. Tayyib Rashid says:
    June 9th, 2008 5:46 pm

    It’s funny how the extreme Christian factions and the extreme Muslim factions have so much in common. For example, once a Jehova’s Witness member refused to take any religious material from me in exchange for the Jehova’s Witness material he was using for the purposes of preaching. This is essentially the same mentality that the Mullah’s on this blog are saying that a Muslim should be allowed to preach his ideas, but no one else should be able to voice theirs. Anyone who actually believes that Islam or any religion teaches this illogical train of thought is extremely insecure about their own beliefs and ideas. Open dialog on thoughts and ideas (religious or otherwise) encourages and enhances knowledge and promotes intellectual growth for all involved. Freedom of thought and freedom of conscience are Islamic principles. Therefore, even if those students were preaching their ideas, then according to Islam the correct response should have been to refute their ideas on an intellectual level rather than ban them from preaching. But no… the arrogant Mullah thinks he knows better and decides to threaten the lives of the students and subjugates a spineless administration to expel them from the University.

  70. Jameel says:
    June 9th, 2008 6:15 pm

    @Tina
    While your point regarding American Christianity routes in Islamic ideology is admittedly very intriguing (and please do share if you find the title of the book) but when it comes to the matter of my Faith, I prefer not using my brain.
    Using my brain, questioning logics and trying to trace the roots of religion will definitely raise some uncomfortable questions which I am not Supposed & Allowed to think and that would lead me start doubting the Allah’s existence itself (Nauz u Billah) and as a result will make me Mulhid and so Wajib ul Qatal.

    Beleiving that those who never heard of Islam are doomed to hell , and whatever else Zarb e Momin, Qari sahab, Urdu, Islamiat, and Pakistan studies text books, Most Urdu Columnists, Naseem Hijazi’s novels, Weekly Takbeer and Daily Ummat have told me is rather Safe and easy option :)

  71. Humaira says:
    June 9th, 2008 6:42 pm

    Why are people trying to distract and change teh discussion. It does not matter to me whether Ahmedis are Muslims or not, or whether Jamaat students are Muslims or not. Both groups will be judged by Allah and I will not do shirk like some people here are doing by talking as if they are God and they will decide who is or is not a real Muslim.

    The issue is one of justice. Are all students to be treated the same in an educational institution. The answer has to be yes (those saying they will blow their nose on Pakistan are not worth talking to).

    The question is also political. I agree with those who are asking for Shahbaz Sharif to take immediate action. Exactly. Lets see what he does. Exactly. But not just him, this is not just in Punjab, this is in Pakistan. So, lets see what Yousuf Raza Gillani and Asif Zardari do. As the ruling party and specially since it was Bhuttos party that declared Ahmedis non-Muslims, we have to see what they do and if they do nothing then they have really lost any respect they had. And what about Musharraf as President of the country. If he stays quiet then it will be further proved that he is a stooge not only of teh US but of the Mullahs.

  72. Eidee Man says:
    June 9th, 2008 6:54 pm

    @Jameel,
    if you think Zakir Naik is half-intelligent, I’m afraid you have bigger problems than I thus far perceived.

  73. Optimist says:
    June 9th, 2008 7:28 pm

    I look at the comments here and in the Danish blast post and I think the lesson is that MOST Pakistanis are against this type of violence and nonsense. There are a few people, but quite small number, who have totally crazy and dangerous ideas about justifying violence and some of them seem only to be seeking attention and they do keep repeating messages. But the vast majority is people with humanist feeling and without hatred. That is a good sign because it shows that the extremists are actually in a minority.

  74. Jameel says:
    June 9th, 2008 7:49 pm

    @Optimist

    I appreciate your optimism. But one big factor behind this appearently small number of extremists here is that it is an “English” website.

    Try reading comments on religious issues on http://blog.jang.com.pk to assess relatively more accurate figures

  75. Ayesha Noor says:
    June 9th, 2008 8:22 pm

    Faiz knew this country so well:

    In the name of students
    Who went to the masters of drums and banners
    Prostrating themselves on doorsteps
    With their books and pens
    Praying, with open arms, to be heard,
    But never returned.
    Those innocents, who, in their naivete
    Took their tiny lamps,
    Their candle flames of hope, to where
    The shadows of endless nights were being given out.

  76. Rasheed says:
    June 9th, 2008 8:23 pm

    A sad, sad, development indeed :(. I just hope that people do not associate this negative development with the advent of democracy.

    A few points to consider about the Ahmadiyya issue in Pakistan:

    As someone pointed out, the problem has to do with the draconian presidential Ordianance XX (twenty) of 1984, imposed by the late Gen. Zia-ul Haq (and still in place), which criminalized the practice of Islam by members of the Ahmadiyya Community. According to the amendment in article 298 of the Pakistan Penal Code any Ahmadi who directly or indirectly posed as a Muslim by words either spoken or written or by visible representation, or in any manner whatsoever, is liable to rigorous imprisonment for a period of three years and to a fine.

    Many Ahmadis went to jail for saying “Assalamu Alaikum” (Peace be upon you) to Muslims, and for displaying the Kalima “La Ilaha Illallahu Muhammadur Rasoolullah” in their stores, etc.

    Regrettably the otherwise sane politicians and intellectuals of Pakistan and advocates of Peace and human rights couldn’t do enough to repeal this ordinance, even though democacies came and went after it was imposed. The law has been condemned around the world’s goverments and human rights organizations.

    Another point. These 23 students were doctors of the future, perhaps to become like one Ahmadi before (Dr. Mahmoodul Hassan?), who, ironically, was the one chosen to perform a major surgery upon former President Zia-ul Haq himself, to save his life.

    Ahmadi students, meanwhile, should understand the atmosphere of Pakistan and realize that now may not be the time to display their faith too enthusiastically, although I’m ashamed to write this. No should be forced to shut up.

    Once, when I taught at Government College, Lahore (btw, hello Ravians!! :) ), My department chair asked me represent him at a meeting with Pakistani Nobelist Abdus Salam. After the forum I noticed a couple of Ahmadi students who, while greeting him, told him that they were Ahmadi. Dr. Salam greeted them nicely but completely ignored their expression of identity with him. On other occasions, too, I noticed that he tried to serve at a more universal level, and didn’t restrict his favors to Ahmadis or proclaim his faith enthusiastically in general audiences.

    In Dr. Salam’s spirit of getting along, the Ahmadi students may do well to hold off their enthusiasm for a while, while this case gets settled. I hope and pray for their readmission and urge the good contributors of this blog to call for their reinstatement as soon as possible using any inflence that you might have.

    We are already the laughing stock of the world. Let’s not contribute to it further. Thank you.

  77. Tahir Ahmed says:
    June 9th, 2008 8:35 pm

    An extremely shameful act by Jamaat Islami goondas. Equaly deplorable is the cowardice of educational authorities and govenment.

  78. Tayyib Rashid says:
    June 9th, 2008 9:08 pm

    @ Jameel:

    “when it comes to the matter of my Faith, I prefer not using my brain.
    Using my brain, questioning logics and trying to trace the roots of religion will definitely raise some uncomfortable questions which I am not Supposed & Allowed to think and that would lead me start doubting the Allah

  79. Sidhas says:
    June 9th, 2008 9:31 pm

    This is a shameful act that reflects how low we have fallen. If we do not stop religious extremism, it will continue to haunt us.

    ” Aan, Maal, Zindagi Azadi AdloInsaf sab ke leay yaksaan hain. Kise ko bunyadi haquq ko zabt karna ka haq hasil nahi hai.

    Lekin afsoos jab tak ye junooni mazhab jiski misal poori Islami tarikh mein nahi milti hai humaray maasheray pur burajaaman hain, Insani aur Islami qadroon ka khoon hotay rahay ga. Mujhe to afsoos ye hota hai ke Yaroon!! aisa nahi ke junooni aur vaheshi pahallay nahi guzray lekin aab ke baar jo ghata chaie hai ke Al-aman Al-hafeez.

  80. Sudhir says:
    June 9th, 2008 10:21 pm

    As has already been commented by several people here, what good comes out of this action by the school? This makes the entire Pakistani community look like fools (especially since a great number are expressing their support for this on other sites/blogs). To those that support this action or a similar line of thinking, would it be fair if India banned all Muslims from its colleges?

  81. readinglord says:
    June 9th, 2008 10:35 pm

    We forget that there is no law or Constitution in this God-forsaken country, but a

  82. Musalman says:
    June 9th, 2008 11:59 pm

    I agree with others who have said that it is the weak of faith who are so threatened by someone drawing a cartoon or someone preaching their faith that they have to turn to violence. May Allah forgive these thugs of their sins and show them true Islam (peace).

  83. Atif Mian says:
    June 10th, 2008 12:45 am

    “ilm haasil karney key liye agar tumhey cheen bhi jaana parey to jao, magar faisalabad sey niklo”

    A witty urdu blog by Arif Shamim on the topic:

    http://www.thepersecution.org/urdu/bbc/080606.html

  84. SH Kavi says:
    June 10th, 2008 12:53 am

    Why can

  85. Randhawa says:
    June 10th, 2008 1:22 am

    there is a disturbing logic that some people advance in these comments and also in the comments on the Denmark embassy blast post which suggests that if someone has done a bad thing in context A, whatever that might be, then it is OK to do bad things in context B. Even if context B has nothing to do with context A. This logic thinks that if anyone has ever made a mistake anywhere then we have the right to do bad things to them including things to them that are much worse (like bombs) than whatever the people did in the first place.

    This logic is wrong and disturbing because it can only be made by people who do not believe in justice.

  86. Politico says:
    June 10th, 2008 1:28 am

    This is the first real test of the new government.

    Will Shahbaz Sharif in Punjab and more important will Gillani and Zardari in the Center have the guts to rise to the Mullah goondas of the Jamaat? I have no confidence that Musharraf will, like other military leaders he is too close to the Mullahs.

  87. Zaheer says:
    June 10th, 2008 2:13 am

    This is really a shamefull act of college officials, i really condemend this act and also the Blind government who has not done yet. people of pakistan are contineously betratde by government officails and they now slaughter the human rights of innocent students just because they belong to different relegious sect.
    Shame to be Pakisatni

  88. Ayesha Noor says:
    June 10th, 2008 3:02 am

    Hats off to the Principle of PMC for this timely decision of expelling all Ahmadi students from the college. This act requires a shrewd foresightedness, a truly unique sense of responsibility and an unprecedented sense of justice. I am positive that the Principle has made this decision on the basis of his clear understanding of the teachings of Ahmadiyya Community, its tradition of non-violent activities and its undeniable conformity with the law of the country. He is aware of the fact that this community is inured to accept all the undesirable acts against it. Any act of antagonism is least expected from this community. The very right of even practicing their religion openly has been snatched away from them. They have been killed, imprisoned, tortured, denied to promotions and castigated as a community. And yet they haven

  89. June 10th, 2008 4:32 am

    Whereas we can watch breaking news of Shaikh Rasheed’s recent bombshells (no one breaks poor people’s news), and the sensational breaking news that M. Asif will spend another night in custody in Dubai, no news channel has run the story of student expulsions.

    I know that IJT’s book fair generates atleast one news report in Geo every two months. ARY this morning bravely announced that Indonesia has banned Ahmadiyya activities (Qadianiat ki tableegh) in the country. Yet no mention was made of the PMC expulsions in the past 4 days. Why is it so difficult for Pakistani media to admit that Ahmadis are being persecuted in the country?

  90. June 10th, 2008 5:07 am

    Think this is rather going too far. I respect Jamat-e-Islami but what these IJT guys are doing, is a very “big honour” to Jamat itself. Can’t we follow our great prophet who accepted the harangues, the insults and even injuries at the hands of his opponents but he never reacted. So gentle, so friendly , so lovable his behaviour had been to his opponents, his enemies that even the most ruthless. most callous and venemous ones ultimetly yielded to him.

    He never used any force, no persecution. no harassment of his opponents, yet he won the hearts of his enemies. I wonder what type of Islam these IJT guys are following. By indulging in such acts, they seem to be standing in the same row which people like Bal Thakray in India are.

    Do we foresee whereto will such acts lead us. Tomorrow we may expell students of this or that sect just beause some 300 goons from IJT or of similar type, harass the prinicipal of an other institution?

    “Na samjhoge tau mit jao ge ae jama-att walo
    tumahari daastan tak bhi na hogi daastano main”.

  91. smssr84 says:
    June 10th, 2008 5:24 am

    forgot to mention that recently when we celebrated 100 years of Khilafat on 27th May. Many Ahmadies were arrested from/near Rabwah…… as they were carrying “weapons of mass destruction” which included, flags, p-caps, and different kinds badges carrying different Duas and mubarak baad titles. many are still in jail for this huge “crime” they commited.

    when u can get arrested for this reason, then u can be expelled from college too.

    its just that the Mullahs are too jealous after seeing our cenetenary celebrations. the Jammat they wanted to erase from the world, is now all over the world MashAllah, and is growing with every turning hour. Alhamdoillah. We dont need any constitution to prove that we are Muslims or not. Allah knows better and that is why He has kept us in protection. He is the best one to decide about the deeds of every human. so its better that ppl start to look in mirrors, before its too late!!!

    take care
    Sabahat

  92. Athar Mahmood says:
    June 10th, 2008 5:59 am

    Is this the Pakistan our fore fathers were looking at …… .
    Let me start from the basics..
    When we speak we speak lie, we are a nation of illitrate and hyprocates, twenty years ago I wrote a letter to one news paper asking have we lost our place in history?…… but now afer twenty years I my self can say YES we have lost every thing. In this land those mothers who gave birth to men of word have died, here mothers are giving birth to only some thing who is nothing….. no principles
    We don’t know what is right or worng… what are the basic principles that we have to follow. Coming to the Medical college incident… I don’t know where to start from… but let me tell you one thing the prosecutions against Ahmadies has always been sponsered either by the gov or the anti gov. to divert the attentions of masses this is the only card played many times and till today no one came to rescue the Ahmadies.

  93. Athar Mahmood says:
    June 10th, 2008 6:42 am

    What are we…..?
    Do we have any brain…
    Yes we have brain to grap what ever we can by any means..
    and still our wishes does not end there and then we go to the mirror who tells us that we are the most enlightened creation and rest is all useless that makes us elivated to a point from where we treat every other one as JAHANAMI . With nothing contributed towards the humanity we still belive the world should bow to our feet because we are the heirs of a Great religon …. we just know its name and nothing else. That we are so let the world wait for some more time…….. till some one is here to teach us a lesson as we have failed to protect the country awarded to us.

  94. Athar Mahmood says:
    June 10th, 2008 7:10 am

    I would like to amend last line….

    as we have failed to live like humans in the country awarded to us.

  95. Mohsin says:
    June 10th, 2008 7:32 am

    This is horrendous so is the face of mullas, Pakistan was created for humans to live not for mullas as they are exactly reverse of every single human trait one can think of. You cannot think of any good coming out of that bunch. They are dragging Pakistan close to the edge of destruction. I hope that people having rational thoughts will muster up against this utter injustice

  96. Jameel says:
    June 10th, 2008 8:21 am

    For all those who are banking on Shahbaz Sharif, well you probably have forgotten that the whole Christian colony called “Shanti Nagar” was burned by Muslim mob during his previous tenure.

    As per my limited knowledge, no body have been punished on that so far.

  97. bilal ahmad says:
    June 10th, 2008 8:54 am

    this is really a shameful act, we should always have to remember that jmiat is a descender of that party who called quaid -w- azam kafir e azam and pakistan palidistan and i think that they are now trying to make pakistan what they titled it before its creation.Its really shameful and will enhance the extremism in the country

  98. Zecchetti says:
    June 10th, 2008 10:28 am

    It is necessary to look at the complete picture here. These Ahmadi students, who believe Ghulam Ahmad Mirza to be both the mahdi, and

  99. Shirjeel says:
    June 10th, 2008 10:31 am

    I think, who ever is saying is true they even didnt read Quran with translation, those are in love with Hazrat Muhammad SAW must have studied Hazoor SAW life, his biographies n his sayings. Islam teaches ethics not to do any unethical things, Islam teaches Justice not inJustice.

    Its their acts & deed which is now coming infront of them that is why they have such an honourable judiciary, honourable member of parliments n honourable Molvis. An honourable nation leading by honourable people :)

  100. Sabahat says:
    June 10th, 2008 10:38 am

    I am amazed to see how young generation is reacting to this event. I was very sure that people would react the same cold manner the way people have reacted in my time. I am an ahmady, my parents and grand parents fought for my country. No I had to abandon my Pakistan because of the extremism.
    However I am glad that new generation has eyes with which they can see beyond the cast and religion.
    I am glad. I am glad

  101. Faraaz says:
    June 10th, 2008 10:43 am

    Its sad that a country whose founder fought for the rights of minorities all his life treats its own minorities in this way!!

  102. B:A: Butt says:
    June 10th, 2008 11:06 am

    We, the oversea living Pakistani (without anyother indentity) are worried about our country

  103. F H K says:
    June 10th, 2008 11:14 am

    I will request people not to make this about religion.

    What was wrong in what the IJT and the Principal did was to turn an educational decision into a religious one. Let us not repeat the same mistake.

    This is about students being denied the right to education. That is a crime. Lets focus on that.

    And those who worry about “falsehood” being taught in universities should worry more about the bad teaching of technical subjects than these religious things. Maybe we will all be better off if we produced more and better doctors than some many neem-hakim religious fanatics.

  104. Faraaz says:
    June 10th, 2008 11:14 am

    Woe to those who twist the word of God to support their own political agenda! Woe to them!! Down with these extremists!!

  105. Dewana Phir Say says:
    June 10th, 2008 11:29 am

    The Indonesian government has announced tough restrictions on followers of the minority Ahmadiyah sect.

    In the decree, the Ahmadiyah are warned they risk five years in jail if they do not stop spreading unorthodox beliefs and return to mainstream Islam.

    The Indonesian constitution guarantees freedom of religion.

    This latest move is widely seen as bowing to Islamic hardliners, who have stepped up a sometimes violent campaign against the nation’s 200,000 Ahmadiyah.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/7443915.stm

    Not a good week for Ahmadis…. :)

  106. Allah Wasaya says:
    June 10th, 2008 11:55 am

    I was reading the link given in the post to the BBC article about this incidence, I noticed a couple of more articles regarding Ahmedis in Pakistan on the same page and was surprised to read that it is UNLAWFUL for them to use expressions like InshaAllah, MashaAllah etc even greeting someone with the customary Asalam O Alaikum is a punishable offense. I am truly speechless.

  107. Saeed Ahmed says:
    June 10th, 2008 11:58 am

    I am saddened and ashamed on this. They should not have done this, every one has the right to education regardless of their beliefs.

  108. Waseem says:
    June 10th, 2008 12:41 pm

    Dear Allah Wasaya Sahib,

    Its hard to believe but its true as two of my dear Uncles were sent to jail (one for 3 months and the other for 6 months) only beacuse they had a kalima “La ilaha illalla Muhammad ur rasulala” batch attached to their chests.

    For details on Ahmadi Persecution: http://www.thepersecution.org/

  109. Ghulam Rabbi says:
    June 10th, 2008 12:52 pm

    I am appalled by the incident. What makes things worse is that what if Christian countries start persecuting the minorities in a similar fashion. I live in USA, what if the government – in the footsteps set by Paksitan- says that Muslim students or Christians from minority groups will be expelled from public school because of their religious belief?

    When will these extremists understand Islam?

    Unfortunately, in the world today, most Christian countries are following Islamic Value of religious tolerance. If you don

  110. Eidee Man says:
    June 10th, 2008 12:58 pm

    @Sabahat,

    although I’m 23, I don’t think this attitude is restricted to the younger generation. I think what you’re getting to see on this blog is a sampling of normal Pakistanis, as opposed to the ones who make it to the TV screens.

  111. paki says:
    June 10th, 2008 2:48 pm

    To all the liberals expressing outrage: some of you claim that you have never heard of such a thing in your beloved west. What about the French and Turkish Muslim girls banned from high school and/or university for practicing their religion? Maybe you didn’t hear about it? or perhaps you weren’t outraged then?

    To the conservatives: some of you i agree with and some of you are just too far gone. i do think you should realize that there is something very wrong with beating up and expelling students regardless of their religion and actions. I wholeheartedly agree that Ahamdis/Qadianis are not Muslim because they reject the finality of the Prophet (saw). Despite that, they should be allowed to live, worship and go to school in peace. if they are guilty of breaking laws against preaching then judge them and punish them accordingly – but beatings and expulsions are idiotic. The behavior of the IJT is idiotic as well. In fact their behavior is probably worse for Muslims and Pakistanis than the preaching of a silly religion.

    If you claim to represent Islam then you have to hold yourself to a higher standard than others. From the little that i know of the biography of the Prophet (saw) i can recall many occassions where he had his rights trampled but very very few where anyone can even accuse him of trampling the rights of others. Why is this the case? i believe it is because the Prophet (saw) was very careful not to oppress anyone or anything even if he had rights over them/it. Perhaps we should follow his example.

  112. ylh says:
    June 10th, 2008 2:59 pm

    I don’t even want to argue anymore about absurdity of the idea that the state can decide whether Ahmadis are Muslim or not.

    What is important here is that under the constitution of Pakistan article 20 every citizen of Pakistan of whatever faith can:

    1. Practise his faith without hinderance.

    2. Propagate his or her faith.

    There is no way that the fundamental rights of a citizen can be abridged. The state cannot by amendment abolish this right either because fundamental rights are by constitution are over riding and cannot be over ridden.

    So just like I have to swallow the bitter pill that constitutional status of Ahmadis as a minority is not going away, all of you haters must realize that by the same token these rights are not going away.

    The state must make sure fundamental rights of these Pakistanis are retored.

  113. ylh says:
    June 10th, 2008 3:07 pm

    Waseem,

    I am not an Ahmadi but my late father was.

    He was also someone who loved Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) more than anyone else and had absolute and complete faith in the truthfulness of the Holy Quran.

    When he suddenly passed away, one of my lasting regrets is that I cannot by law put the kalima on his grave…he who would have gladly given his life for Islam and Muslims regardless of their sect. The great irony of my life…

    People ask me how I can be idealistic about Pakistan … And sometimes I find myself wondering too…

  114. Ali Khan says:
    June 10th, 2008 3:09 pm

    PMC is a disgrace, the chancellor is a coward and all of those people on here who are supporting the decision to expel the Ahmadi’s and are ‘preaching hatred’ should hang their heads in shame. If you want to follow the mad mullahs of Pakistan, the very same people because of whom Pakistan is in the state it is today. Rather then listening to what this mullahs tell you, why don’t you use the brains that Allah has blessed you with.

  115. Anotehr Liberal Elite says:
    June 10th, 2008 3:20 pm

    Dear Paki, aka Neo-Con

    I am always amused by these rants about so-called “Liberals” since nearly no one here describes themselves as such, and those of us who do use it only to mock at the silliness of other commenters.

    But let me congratulate and comment you for your guts. After all, very few people today (even in the US) would have teh gall to describe themselves as Neo-Con. So, since you are not a Liberal you must be a Neo-Con, one of Mr. Bush’s fans and one of those who hate Mr. Jinnah’s country. I cannot understand how you can stand to be a fan of Mr. George Bush but from your comment you obviously are. Congratulations.

    As to being the boot lickers of the “West”, those are not Liberals, those are Neo-Cons like yourself. Mr. Bush and his dear freinds Mr. Musharraf, the Saudi kings, and of course YOU.

    In fact you argument in defence of the bigotry of the IJT proves that you are a Neo-Con. Essentially what you just said is that since the”West” is intolerant therefore it is OK if IJT and the suicide bombers and other people you support are also intolerant. That would only be the case if you consider the “west” and its behavior to be our spiritual guide. After all, only then woul you want to follow them (taqleed) blindly.

    So, if you want to be a follower of the “West” please go ahead. If you want to kill innocent people because the West kills innocent people and if you want to be like the West by becoming intolerant, then that if your choice. Keep following your Neo-Con masters and doing exactly what they do.

    For the rest of us real Muslims and real Pakistanis, we do NOT want to follow your Neo-Con Masters in the West and we do not want to follow your Islam-haters of the Taliban and IJT. We reject both and we reject you. We know that you are the same people that did not want Pakistan or a country for Muslims in teh first place and are now bent on destroying it. We will not let you do that!!!!

  116. Asim Ahmad says:
    June 10th, 2008 6:29 pm

    PMC is a disgrace to Pakistan, the Muslims, and to the world.
    When these students were expelled, PMC broke a submisssion which Pakistan made with the UN in which they would give education to minor groups of the community.
    PMC took out these students for preaching to the other students. This is a really bad thing to do. Muslims above all should be showing the most love and compassion to others. This really shows how corrupt the Muslims have become.
    The message of this group which I was reading at http://www.alislam.org is about peace and love. their motto is “Love for All Hatred for None”

    A true disgrace for the PMC

  117. Sridhar says:
    June 10th, 2008 7:15 pm

    Can a Christian or a Hindu say “Assalam u Alaikum” without being subject to prosecution? The comment by Allah Wasaya suggests that it is a punishable offence for Ahmadis. Is that true for all non-Muslims or only for Ahmadis?

  118. Tayyib Rashid says:
    June 10th, 2008 8:51 pm

    @ Sridhar

    To answer your question, ordinance XX is directed specifically towards the Ahmadi group as it specfically states their organization. Which makes even less sense to me as to why my country has a double standard for even discrimination among minorities. I dont’ understand this. So if a Christian or a Hindu says, “Asslamo Alaikum”, that is ok, but it’s not ok for an Ahmadi to say this? What kind of mid-evil backward thinking logic allows this to be considered rational and just by any strech of the imagination?
    @ Zechetti
    I’m sorry to say sir, but your thinking is wrong, unislamic, and very very dangerous. Who are you to judge if someones works are considered to be lost of vain in the sight of Allah? Are you suggesting that you know what Allah really wants and has Allah communicated this to you? Only Allah knows who is right and who is wrong. not you, not me, not anyone else. So leave the matter of faith to Allah. As for what happened to those 23 students, no matter how you slice it, the “BIGGER PICTURE” is that what has been done to them is wrong. Islam does not allow for this type of barbaric behavior. We must follow the example of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (saw) himself when he returned insults and filth thrown at him with love and prayer. Instead of praying for our enemies, we embarrass ourselves by committing these heinous acts trying to justify it by saying that we are doing a service to Islam. We in fact are doing a disservice to Islam and to Pakistan by assuring that there will be 23 less doctors in Pakistan.

  119. June 10th, 2008 9:32 pm

    People and government of Pakistan: Ask yourselves: Have the mullas made Pakistan better off by REDUCING the number of future doctors in Pakistan? We understand their hatred against our community, but people, some actions have “perverse” (meaning worsening the problem you’re trying to solve) consequences. But the mullas are not concerned with improving the health and welfare of the people, Ahmadis are. When you need your heart tended to, where will you go? Tahir Heart Institute. But what will you find there? If the mullas get their way, you will find that there are no doctors to fix your heart.

  120. Ibrahim says:
    June 10th, 2008 9:51 pm

    The students who have been dismissed can go to the court of law and challenge their explusion. Nobody is suggesting that if you are a born qadiyani you shouldn’t be allowed to study, etc. What’s being said is that if you are a qadiyani and preach this religion then you should be dismissed. I don’t care what the constituition says. If it says it is allowed for them to preach, then the specific article should be repealed.

  121. ShahidnUSA says:
    June 11th, 2008 12:15 am

    I get “Mormons, latter day saints” people all the time on the streets promoting their version of christianity.
    All I do is smile at them and say “No thank you” and keep walking. They dont bother me at all.
    But at the medical college where students learn to treat patients regardless of their political and religious affiliation and sometime even financial situation, preaching a different version of some other religion is little unfair and a distraction.
    But they should nt expelled them. I advice counseling.

  122. YLH says:
    June 11th, 2008 12:34 am

    Fundamental rights cannot be amended… even a 2/3rds majority cannot pass a constitutional amendment touching the fundamental rights chapter…

    The best an assembly of fools can do is make propagation of all other religions unlawful… and such a law itself would be unconstitutional.

    An impartial and free judiciary would strike it down.

    So no donut for you my friend.

  123. Pakistani says:
    June 11th, 2008 1:13 am

    I think the tide is beginning to turn against the Jamaatis and other fanatics like the suicide bombers and the Taliban groups. As the comments here show, people are now willing to speak up and not be scared of the goonda gardi of the Jamaat. That is a good sign.

  124. Ordinary Citizen says:
    June 11th, 2008 2:05 am

    @YLH: Last time I checked, propagation of ALL religions in Pakistan, except Islam, IS unlawful. Why are we singling Qadianis out here? The reason why there are extra restrictions on Qadianis, like not being able to say Salaam or display or recite Kalima, is so that they can’t say to the ordinary Muslims that we are just like you, which is another way of preaching their faith.

    This is not a simple issue like many of us think it is . Most of the people, including myself, who write on internet blogs (especially the ones in English) are educated and trained to think in a ‘Western’ way. It is almost impossible for them to see the other side of the story in the context of the ground realities in Pakistan.

    Saying that there should be absolute freedom for practicing and preaching any religion in any country is living in Utopia. Every nation has skeletons in their closets, some have so many that they are beginning to fall out ;)

  125. jusathot says:
    June 11th, 2008 2:12 am

    With mass-mobilization and the determination to educate, organize and if need be to strive and exert even ordinary folks can do miracles. Unlike the hype, hyperbole, and slogan-mongering by some.

    The recent Indonesian ministerial decree is the case in point:

  126. YLH says:
    June 11th, 2008 2:53 am

    Ordinary Citizen…

    Pakistani constitution establishes the right to propagate one’s faith as a FUNDAMENTAL RIGHT.

    “20. Freedom to profess religion and to manage religious institutions.
    Subject to law, public order and morality:- (a) every citizen shall have the right to profess, practise and propagate his religion; and
    (b) every religious denomination and every sect thereof shall have the right to establish, maintain and manage its religious institutions. ”

    So I am not sure when or where it was that you last checked.

  127. YLH says:
    June 11th, 2008 2:56 am

    All anti-ahmaddiya laws on the statute books … especially the PPC … are unconstitutional.

    Unfortunately the PCO-ed judges in our history have never had the courage to call a spade a spade…

    Some day an independent judiciary will scrap these draconian laws Inshallah.

  128. Asma says:
    June 11th, 2008 3:40 am

    The Punjab Medical College administration has withdrawn its decision of rusticating 23 Ahmedi students on charges of preaching their faith on the campus and converted their `sentence

  129. Daktar says:
    June 11th, 2008 3:47 am

    Asma, thanks for that update.

    I think this is a positive development. Although I am not sure how even the suspention is justified. But at least it shows some action by the government and the college and some sense of restraint.

  130. Junaid says:
    June 11th, 2008 3:50 am

    Good that the PMC has changed its decision. Now, they need to punish the IJT hooligans.

  131. Qizalbash says:
    June 11th, 2008 4:00 am

    I also just heard that decision has been reversed and also that it was directly because Shahbaz Sharif took notice. I think this shows real leadership by Shahbaz. Zardari would never have done this. It was Bhutto who first created these crazy laws.

  132. June 11th, 2008 4:21 am

    Good news. Shahbaz shareef is the better leader in many respects. I hope he gets a strong grip on the mullahs during his time in power.

  133. Sayed Zeeshan says:
    June 11th, 2008 4:48 am

    Even the suspension is kind of fishy.

    You are punishing 23 students for the actions of 4?
    It still stinks of secterian/religious bias.

  134. ayesha fazal says:
    June 11th, 2008 5:27 am

    i am myself a student of pmc and i can tell u that the decision made was necessary and rightly taken to allow peace to prevail at pmc
    what was done was right
    and i myself am witness to all the misdeeds of the ahmedi students
    and the biggest point is that what was done is justified by the fact that
    1…the students wrongly enrolled them selves as muslim students in the first place
    2…the ahmedi students WERE preaching their religion
    3…the DID tear the khatm e NABOOWAT saw conference posters
    4….and used foul language against RASOOL saw
    and all the students at pmc irrespective of their involvement in any one of the two prominent student political parties will stand united against the decision of their enrollment back into the college

  135. June 11th, 2008 6:11 am

    ayesha fazal:
    Thanks for providing the first hand information on the events. First of all, there is something called “privacy” or “confidentiality” when it comes to personal details. If any student has provided wrong information on their application forms, it is not IJT or their supporters who should take notice. They should not have access to such information in the first place. Also, it is the duty of College administration to enquire into the wrong information submitted and expell the culprits on the basis of “lying on their application forms”, not preaching their faith. Secondly, the proper statement in order to ascertain the real religion of a person (especially in case of Ahmadis) is available on the passport forms. No ahmadi can declare himself a sirkari mulsim based on that statement. But if you ask me whether I am a. A muslim or b. non-muslim, then I will definitely choose a. Muslim. You have to include the constitutional ammendment in the applicaiton form which defines a muslim as anyone who rejects Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, then I will happily select the statement “o kafar kafar aakhday, tu aaho aaho aakh”. So please do not give me this innocent excuse that confidential information about those students was made public.
    They were definitely preaching their religion.. Right.. I agree they were. But Pakistani law is clear on this situation. The victims of this preaching should have gone straight to the police with evidence. It is very common for Ahmadis to go to jail on these charges. Expelling them is just not the right solution. I have committed this crime of preaching in University of Agriculture, Faisalabad. The victims were surprised at the fact that I believed in everything islamic and knew more about history of Islam and Quran than their nazim sahib. But alas, they lost their sense of loss of faith by speaking to an Ahmadi. What a grave sin.. They should have gone to the police.
    Tearing Khatme Nabuwwat posters.. Right.. I hope they did. Because I am sure no posters were allowed in campuses when I was studying there. It is a common practice among Pakistani Mullahs that they hide behind the sacred nature of texts to propagate their politics. And besides, was it all 23 students who tore up the posters. Again, if anyone was aggrieved by the tearing of posters, they should have gone to the police.. Not PMC administration because they should have banned such posters from the campus anyways.
    Using foul language against the Holy Prophet (saw)!!! Despite the great clarity of your announcement, I am not convinced. I hear this again and again, but never hear the nature of the foul language used. Once a charsi who used to eat from my uncle’s house came asking for money. My uncle refused becuase he knew it would go towards his drugs. A few hours later I saw the same charsi in the local market shouting that he saw my uncle putting the pages of Quran in a gutter. I am sure the IJT hooligans are doing the same thing. Now, I demand that you quote the “foul language” used. Anyone who knows any Ahmadi will refuse to accept that Ahmadis do not love the Holy Prophet (saw). It is only the mullah who can’t see the facts.

  136. YLH says:
    June 11th, 2008 6:26 am

    Ayesha Fazal,

    Your claims seem to be rather pathetic

    1. Provide evidence for this.

    2. It is their constitutional right under the constitution of Pakistan Article 20.

    3. Provide evidence for this.

    4. Highly unlikely as an Ahmadi using foul language against Holy Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) is automatically outside the pale of the Ahmadi faith.

  137. YLH says:
    June 11th, 2008 6:28 am

    Shahbaz Sharif zindabad!

  138. Dewana Phir Say says:
    June 11th, 2008 7:23 am

    The whole incident is one sided from start to finish, from

  139. Ordinary Citizen says:
    June 11th, 2008 8:15 am

    @YH: Article 20 has been annulled by the second amendment of 1974.

  140. Zaheer says:
    June 11th, 2008 8:24 am

    This is highly disgraceful incident. Ahmadis are do not hurt anyone becouse they believe in LOVE FOR ALL HATRED FOR NONE. Then why they are being subjected to such a violent action.

  141. Khalid says:
    June 11th, 2008 8:35 am

    @Ordinary Citizen:
    So let me get this straight … Qadianis cannot use “copyrighted” Islamic terms because it would confuse other (perhaps, naive) Muslims? I can understand this logic because clearly even at the time of Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), hypocrites existed and Allah warned the Prophet against such characters, notably Abdullah bin Ubayy. This was such a despicable man that his own son sought permission from the Prophet to kill his father. Yet, the response of the Prophet was to not only let him be, but he even offered his funeral prayer. Perhaps the ordinary citizen, who is proud to be educated in the West and knows a few things about skeletons, should instead study history and learn to live by the example set by the greatest of all prophets.

  142. jusathot says:
    June 11th, 2008 9:36 am

    @YLH: Hold your horses!
    Let

  143. June 11th, 2008 9:44 am


    Saying that there should be absolute freedom for practicing and preaching any religion in any country is living in Utopia.

    Correct. It;s not even “SECULAR” turkey either. All secular machinary got pumped up to kick Abdullah Gull out of power coz his Life partner wears scarf.

  144. Dewana Phir Say says:
    June 11th, 2008 9:50 am

    “And now, you are calling a lady student of the institution in question and her eyewitness account as

  145. MHQ says:
    June 11th, 2008 9:55 am

    @ayesha fazal
    Your claims are clear lies because,
    if “the students wrongly enrolled them selves as Muslim students” then how the principal came to know that they are Ahmadis and expelled them immediately. Getting this information about 23 students would have required him to contact ISI or check the NADRA database for the information and this process can take months!
    Secondly, no Ahmadi can ever use “foul language” against the Holy Prophet (SAW).

  146. Adnan Ahmad says:
    June 11th, 2008 10:06 am

    I read the news on BBC on Friday and knowing Pakistan as well as I do, I was just thinking about the students who aspire to become doctors and are now expelled.. Even if they are taken back what kind of life would they have on campus. When will this end? I actually remembered a short paper I had written in a western civ. class many many years ago which dealt with the 150AD onward period when it was a crime to be a Christian and they were often killed just to entertain the masses. I remember a quote from that era:

  147. Sridhar says:
    June 11th, 2008 10:15 am

    The roots of the current situation can be traced back to the Objectives Resolution itself. It laid out a clearly different status for Islam in the polity and that was forced through despite the unanimous opposition of all minority members of the Constitutent assembly. And this was in a country where 15% of the population was non-Muslim as per the 1951 census – leave aside the minority proportion if one were to take minority sects into account. (It is unlikely that Jinnah would have allowed this to happen). It was a slippery slope after that. Even in the 1950s, it was clear that there would be no agreement between sects about their interpretation of Islamic law (refer the Munir report). The Ahmediya issue is only the most extreme and perverse example of what can go wrong in a polity that places one religion above others in the public sphere.

    YLH refers to the basic structure of the constitution. First of all, I don’t think the basic structure of Pakistan’s constitution has quite the solid backing of tradition that the US constitution has or even the backing of case law that the basic structure of India’s constitution has acquired (through Supreme Court judgements on the issue). Even if it were, the primacy given to Islam in the constitution is also a part of the same basic structure. And that can be used to justify the Admediya-related laws on the statute books. It is debatable what even a free and fair court may pronounce on this issue because of the conflict between two basic elements of the constitution.

    Thus, to my mind, the issue cannot be solved unless Pakistan adopts a secular constitution, not in the sense of promoting irreligiosity, but in the sense of not having anything to say about religion whatsoever (other than providing fundamental rights to profess, practice and propagate any religion). It is not easy – people would have to be convinced that this means no disrespect to Islam or even any dilution of the place that Islam plays in people’s lives. But it is the only way to arrest the decline.

    My two cents on the issue.

  148. Nimi says:
    June 11th, 2008 10:22 am

    Guys,

    I am sorry, but the question over here is not to justify what happened under the light of the pakistani constitution or whatever reference from the history.

    This is a question of attitudes. That of the direction that pakistanis want to give to their society.

    What we should ask ourselves is that:

    1. should citizens of pakistans be discriminated on whatever grounds?
    2. should someone be condemned under whatever sort, true of supposed, of blasphemy?
    3. should a group of students be allowed to ask expulsion of another group of students?
    4. should a group of students be allowed to actually beat up and move another group of students?
    5. on religious grounds, should it be accepted that the faith of a group of paksitanis is inferiour to the others?

    The rest is of little relevance.

  149. Sridhar says:
    June 11th, 2008 10:26 am

    BTW, the Objectives resolution only mentioned the right to profess and practice one’s religion, not to propagate it. I checked Article 20 of the constitution. It does provide the right to propagate one’s religion, but has caveats. Even something as fundamental as the freedom of speech (which itself is usually adequate to guarantee freedom to propagate one’s religion) is subjected to “reasonable restrictions in the interest of the glory of Islam” amongst other things. Taken together, a case can be made that the constitution puts restrictions on the propagation of religions other than Islam (or pronounced as being as such, like the Ahmediya example shows).

  150. Younus says:
    June 11th, 2008 10:27 am

    Waseem, how is Khalid “completely ignorant and in a confused state of mind”? Your choice of words undermine your efforts, good intentioned as they may be. Khalid was offering an argument against another poster (Ordinary Citizen) who defended the Pakistani laws that forbid Ahmadis from saying Salaam.

  151. Dewana Phir Say says:
    June 11th, 2008 11:14 am

    “Taken together, a case can be made that the constitution puts restrictions on the propagation of religions other than Islam (or pronounced as being as such, like the Ahmediya example shows).”

    @Sridhar: At the time of objective resolution Ahmadis were Muslims, at least constitutionally. But problem is not that but rather the nity gritty when you need to make the difficult decision of which Fiqh of Islam should decide a particular matter of state. In other words, which Islam is the official Islam. Try implementing one fiqh on all and see other fiqh up in arms. Zia ul Haq tried this to some extent by preferring deo-bandi/Jamaat Islami view and since then we have violent confrontations in defence of shia and brelvi sides. In situation like this prize always goes to whoever can show more muscles. Hence the incentive for all religious parties to maintain their armies as well as work with behind the scene forces like army and intelligence.

  152. YLH says:
    June 11th, 2008 11:17 am

    Sridhar,

    You are absolutely right about the objectives resolution.

    However my reference was to article 20. The OR did not become a substantive part till 1984.

    While there are caveats for freedom of expression, article 20 is free of them… it does not mention Islam or anything like that.

    I don’t have a high opinion of the basic structure of Pakistan’s constitution but article 20′s freedom of practice and propagation is unfettered and immutable.

  153. YLH says:
    June 11th, 2008 11:35 am

    Ordinary citizen,

    The second amendment, horrendous as it is, does not “annul” article 20.

    Now go back and check again. It is the “definition” of a muslim amendment.

    It doesn’t even talk about freedom of religion or abridging it.

    Even if it had, which it didn’t, fundamental rights are under jurisprudence immutable sections of the constitution. This is a settled principle of law.

    Justathot,

    Presidential orders cannot dis-establish fundamental rights. Nor is there anything in the presidential order of 1984 that can serve to clip article 20. Ironically this order opened the door for Non-Muslim Prime Minister…perhaps Zia did not consider the implications of his amendments but for all his Islamization a lacuna in order 1984 has ensured that any citizen of Pakistan can legally become the PM of Pakistan.

    But then these things go unnoticed.
    Also Bhutto is no idol of mine. And wolper while a great historian has made some awful errors which have been pointed out by other historians. That ofcourse doesn’t take away from his remarkable books on Jinnah and Bhutto.

    Let’s not make this discussion about me.

  154. Anjum Hafeez says:
    June 11th, 2008 12:51 pm

    This is for sure that reading does not make any one educated. Jamiat Guys do not even take any guidence from Quran.They are not even close to the teaching of Holy Prophet Muhammad Pease Be Upon Him.

  155. ayesha fazal says:
    June 11th, 2008 2:07 pm

    @ mhq
    “@ayesha fazal
    Your claims are clear lies because,
    if

  156. ayesha fazal says:
    June 11th, 2008 2:09 pm

    correction =they do agree they enrolled as muslim students

  157. A Neutral outsider says:
    June 11th, 2008 2:21 pm

    Leaving aside all the intellectual talk about the contraints and parameters of the Pakistani constitution, the whole fiasco is a classic case of the STATE and its organs being the judge, jury and the executioner!

    as for the constitution of Pakistan, it is, with all no disrespect intended, a joke! nothing more, nothing else! a military dictator brings in changes declaring people non-muslims. for 1400 years any1 who recited the kalima was held to be a Muslim even if the person was a known hypocrite, yet the great pakistani constitution for the 1st time in 14 centuries has decided, in its own unique wisdom, of how to define who a Muslim is and the new definition is: you are a muslim so long as you are not an Ahmadi.

    what a shame!

  158. Rasheed says:
    June 11th, 2008 2:22 pm

    First, let’s applaude whoever intervened in order to lessen the penalty. If it was Shabaz, hats off to him. The probable total innocence of the Punjab-23 notwithstanding. Hopefully further investigations into the matter will reveal the latter contention, and even the two-week suspension would be deemed unfair, excessive and bigoted.

    But folks, just take a moment to think of where the world is right now and in contrast where we are in Pakistan. Today it is reported that NASA plans to send a mission, sun Probe plus, to the sun in order to study its atmosphere. The spokesperson quoted in the report appears from her name to be an Indian. US high-tech predator drones and F-15′s reportedly launched several 500-pound bombs inside the territory of Pakistan, killing 11 Pakistani soldiers and wounding 7. Perhaps meaning their intended mission accomplished.

    Pakistan, meanwhile is suffering from terrible shortages of crop yields, making her more and more dependent upon foreign aid. Seems like our days of this sort of economic slavery aren’t going to be over soon.

    In spite of our perilous condition, in Pakistan we’re consumed with making decisions about who is a proper Muslim and who is not, and who should be free to preach faith and who should not. As many have pointed out, that’s God’s job, not ours. After having been at it for so long, by now we should have figured out that God’s job is not easy, no wonder He’s called The Greatest (Allahu Akbar!). See what happens when you try to do a job you’re not qualified for? But it appears that some of us will just never learn :) .

    Why can’t we all just get along, as has been said many times, and others in the world have learned how to do?

  159. June 11th, 2008 2:29 pm

    Miss Ayesha Fazal,

    Please let us know what blasphemy took place at PMC? What did the ahmadi students utter which constituted “foul language” against the Holy Prophet (saw)?

  160. YLH says:
    June 11th, 2008 2:32 pm

    Ayesha Fazl,

    You just contradicted your earlier claim that they enrolled as Muslims … Btw I am sure each one of them is a better Muslim than you.

  161. YLH says:
    June 11th, 2008 2:33 pm

    Neutral outsider,

    Ironically it was Bhutto who brought the amendment.

  162. Dewana Phir Say says:
    June 11th, 2008 2:42 pm

    ayesha fazal says:
    “correction =they do agree they enrolled as muslim students”

    What do you mean enrolled as Muslim students? Were they enrolling in a religious seminary that it matters what religion they are? Unless you are saying that PMC carries out religious profiling during enrolment process. If that is the case then the obvious objection is

  163. Ayaz Siddiqui says:
    June 11th, 2008 3:47 pm

    got a question..

    Are Christians allowed to construct a new church anywhere in Pakistan

  164. smssr84 says:
    June 11th, 2008 4:06 pm

    @ayesha fazal

    if today I annouce that you are NOT a Muslim, and have no right to live a life of an ideal/normal muslim. will you stop believing in Islam and stop acting as one??? will your heart turn in a few hours or a few years??/ will u stop calling yourself a Muslim, coz just some random ppl annoucned u as a non-muslim???

    just think what would be your situtation if all this was happening with you and your family. Just once think like that!!!

    as for the students, I dont think it is safe for them to still study in such a college. its not safe for them. and i think that the suspension is also not right. when they have not done anything then why suspend them???

  165. Atif Mian says:
    June 11th, 2008 7:02 pm

    Dear all,
    When I wrote this blog, I was not sure how Pakistanis at large will receive it. I am very glad to see an overwhelming anger against this injustice. But what is most impressive is that many Pakistanis took it upon themselves to take real action – doctors, alumni associations, other ex-pats… – many have lobbied to get this injustice reversed. I have personally heard some of these stories. And most of them are NOT Ahmadies – this is the true pakistaniat that we should all aspire towards.

  166. Faraz says:
    June 11th, 2008 7:40 pm

    I was getting tired of everyone agreeing with everyone else on this blog and repeating each other 150 times on this post alone. I am glad someone from PMC showed up to defend what happened to the students. And now we can have an actual discussion and hopefully get people thinking.

  167. YLH says:
    June 11th, 2008 8:48 pm

    Ayaz,

    Yes christians are and there are new churches in Pakistan constructed every now and then.

    It would be unconstitutional to deny them this right.

    Similarly Ahmadis do make their mosques but they are asked to make it clear that the mosque is an ahmadi place of worship…

    it is quite distasteful really.

  168. YLH says:
    June 11th, 2008 9:28 pm

    Abdul hafeez pirzada, bhutto’s law minister, proved himself to be a poor constitutional lawyer when he argued in 1974 that the national assembly was completely sovereign.

    The correct position was that of Sir Zafrullah Khan who said it was beyond the scope of the national assembly under the 1973 constitution to make such a decision.

    Ahmadis at the time of the promulgation of the constitution were legitimate established sect of Islam and the constitutional provisions dealing with Islam clearly said that Islam could only be interpretted according to each sect.

    Therefore the second amendment is itself illegal and in violation of the constitution of 1973.

  169. Ibrahim says:
    June 12th, 2008 12:57 am

    Sis ayesha fazal….thank you for letting us know your account and fo standing up for what you think is wrong.

    Similarly Ahmadis do make their mosques but they are asked to make it clear that the mosque is an ahmadi place of worship

  170. Ordinary Citizen says:
    June 12th, 2008 1:05 am

    @YLH: Yeah, that’s because a church, unlike a Qadiani place of worship, does not resemble a mosque in any way, so there is no need to declare it a church.

    @Atif Mian: You wrote “But what is most impressive is that many Pakistanis took it upon themselves to take real action”. Unfortunately, the people who are in a position to take some real action do not read blogs and people like ourselves who read blogs just read blogs ;)

  171. YLH says:
    June 12th, 2008 1:49 am

    Ordinary citizen …

    We are still waiting up on you to show us how the second amendment abolishes article 20.

    Muslim places of worship also closely resemble gurdwaras and several mosques in the US and UK look like Churches.

    I am all for Ahmadiyya Islamic Mosque to advertise Ahmaddiya in bold letters but to stop them from making minarets or saying Azaan or the Kalima is just unconstitutional.

    -YLH

  172. Dewana Phir Say says:
    June 12th, 2008 2:39 am

    Some progress…

    FAISALABAD, June 11: The police sealed the Punjab Medical College (PMC) boys hostels on Wednesday and disconnected water and power supply, forcing students to leave the premises, sources told Dawn.

    Sources said a heavy contingent of police on the request of PMC administration besieged Iqbal and Seena hostels and asked all borders to vacate the premises till 3pm. After the deadline, sources said, the police locked the main gates and they did not allow any student to get their belongings.

    http://www.dawn.com/2008/06/12/nat38.htm

  173. Muslim says:
    June 12th, 2008 2:40 am

    Ibrahim, I agree with you. Obviously you also want Wahabi places of worship to boldly say that they are not mosques and are Wahabi and they should not be allowed to say Assalamu Alikum, give azaan, etc. Because that will obviously confuse some Muslims into believing that Wahabis are Muslims, which they obviously are not. They are a deviant cult that seeks to distort real Islam. Similarly Taliban temples should certianly not be allowe dto look like or act like mosques, because they are also fake Muslims and their whole mission is to confuse real Muslims into believing that their perverted shariah is real Islam.

    Thank you Ibrahim for making this logic clear to all of us Muslims so that we can now start also stamping out these other enemies of Islam.

  174. TIRED says:
    June 12th, 2008 2:46 am

    Moderators,

    can we please have a way of stopping the spam in this comments chain. Some people, on both sides, are just stuffing this with one message after the other saying the same thing again and again and again and again. What is the point if the other guy did not understand the point the first time they will not get it the 10th time either.

  175. Rambler says:
    June 12th, 2008 2:58 am

    Thats new!

    PMC boys hostels sealed

    By Our Staff Correspondent

    FAISALABAD, June 11: The police sealed the Punjab Medical College (PMC) boys hostels on Wednesday and disconnected water and power supply, forcing students to leave the premises, sources told Dawn.

    Sources said a heavy contingent of police on the request of PMC administration besieged Iqbal and Seena hostels and asked all borders to vacate the premises till 3pm. After the deadline, sources said, the police locked the main gates and they did not allow any student to get their belongings.

    Only foreign students have been allowed to stay, as they have no immediate means to relocate.

    Sources said the deteriorated situation forced the administration to change the hostel warden, Dr Khalid, who allegedly refused to seek police assistance to get the hostels vacated. Dr Javeed Iqbal has been appointed the new warden.

    Talking to Dawn, Malik Yousaf, a Madina Town police officer, said the force had been deployed to avoid any eventuality. He said the police personnel would not enter the hostel premises. He said only foreign students had been permitted to stay.

    http://www.dawn.com/2008/06/12/nat38.htm

  176. Dewana Phir Say says:
    June 12th, 2008 4:50 am

    Governor seeks report on expulsion of Ahmedi students

    LAHORE: Governor Salmaan Taseer, taking notice of the expulsion of 23 students from the Punjab Medical College (PMC), Faisalabad, on Tuesday called a report from the Health secretary within 24 hours.

    The Academic Council of the PMC had expelled 23 Ahmedi students for allegedly preaching their religion on campus. staff report

    http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2008%5C06%5C11%5Cstory_11-6-2008_pg7_47

  177. Momina says:
    June 12th, 2008 6:07 pm

    I think this whole issue is about mixing religion and education.

    I think the Ahmedi students were wrong in propagating religion in an educational institution. Not because they are Ahmedi but because I think NO religion should be propagated in an education institution. Keep colleges only about education. That includes banning religious fundamental organizations like the Jamiat which should not be allowed on any campus. The purpose of a medical college is to create doctors, lets only focus on that. What people want to do on their own time in their own premises is their own business and what they want to believe is a personal matter.

    I don’t want to be told be an Ahmedi that I will be a better Muslim if I were like them and I dont want to be told by a Jamaati that I will be a better Muslim if I were like them. If either of them turns into a good person for everyone to see then I will be impressed but otherwise all these silly debates are just words.

  178. Dewana Phir Say says:
    June 12th, 2008 7:03 pm

    Another twist;

    http://jang.com.pk/jang/jun2008-daily/13-06-2008/islamabad/raw1.gif

    Without a free trial (or any trial for that matter), expelled students have been declared guilty of blasphemy, all 23 of them.

    Mob rule in 21st century.

  179. KAMAL says:
    June 12th, 2008 7:31 pm

    Dear Deewana Phir Say, the actions of the mob in the Rawalpindi Medical College, probably staged by the IJT again, is bigoted and dispicable. However, your post is misleading and I hope you were not purposely trying to ignite emotions…. Since that is exactly what the IJT is doing and if you do the same that you are no worse than them!

    Your comment suggest that the new “twist” you mention is that now “Without a free trial (or any trial for that matter), expelled students have been declared guilty of blasphemy, all 23 of them.” he reader would assume that they have been “declared” so by the government or a court or a college. That is NOT the case at all. A bunch of thugs say that and that’s all.

    Let us please not stoop to the same behavior that we are all condemning.

  180. Eidee Man says:
    June 12th, 2008 8:06 pm

    BTW, it’s funny how the Wahabis of today are against Qadianis and other religions because of the “harm” they are doing to Pakistan. Have these followers of Maulana Azad forgotten that they did not want Pakistan in the first place?

    Enough said.

  181. Faraz says:
    June 12th, 2008 9:21 pm

    Wow Eidee. Like they say in Urdu, “kahan ki kahan lay gaey.”

  182. Eidee Man says:
    June 13th, 2008 5:33 am

    I’m reading Jinnah of Pakistan right now, so that’s why I made the connection :-)

  183. June 13th, 2008 5:34 am

    Principal ! good job done, keep it up

  184. June 13th, 2008 8:36 am

    Its funny that every thing which is disliked by liberals is labeled as “WAHABI” just like American yanks associate every thing they dislike with ISLAM. You guys should try to grow up instead if showing hatred against other sects.

  185. Anti-Neo-Con says:
    June 13th, 2008 9:49 am

    @Adnan Siddiqi rants: “Its funny that every thing which is disliked by liberals is labeled as

  186. June 13th, 2008 12:22 pm

    Anti neo con who didn’t have courage enuff to use his original alias has no idea that Neo cons has history to use liberals of each country esp Muslim states to fulfill their agenda. That’s other thing that Liberals never ever realized that they always played in hands of right wingers of some other nation. Irony or Ignorance whatever you name it. ;)

  187. Rasheed says:
    June 13th, 2008 3:13 pm

    Perhaps some of us have heard of the expression “Charagh talay andhera”! Some of us in Pakistan sometimes don’t realize the good present in a person (e.g. Dr. Salam) or group (e.g. Ahmadiyya) right near us, while in other far off places in the world, they are highly valued. We’ve got to learn to get along with Ahmadis, Wahabis, deobandis, Ismailis, “Mullahs”, “liberals”, “Deewana-Phir-Say’s” :) , and all others, as long as they are Pakistanis, if we are to make real national progress.

  188. Zahra Asif says:
    June 13th, 2008 3:49 pm

    All that took place at Rawalpindi Medical College is that the students gathered in front of Dr. Mussadiq Khan’s office and requested him not to sign any such document that permits those students’ re-admission. I believe it was a wise action as such a re-admission could lead to violent protests and put the lives of those 23 Qadiani students in danger as well. Let me assure you, brothers, that there were no Jama’at-e-Islami ‘bigots’ and ‘thugs’ there :) Just a gathering of well-organized, highly sophisticated students who had a complete right to stage a peaceful protest and covey their message through a proper channel.

    Regards
    Zahra

  189. Wasim says:
    June 13th, 2008 4:11 pm

    This whole mess is created by people who dont understand islam which teaches us to respect faith and beliefs of everybody. student encircling the principal should be expelled from college and criminal investigation should be started against them. All these extremist element should be eliminated from educational institions only then we will be able to move forward and live peacefully.
    LONG LIVE PAKISTAN

  190. Rambler says:
    June 14th, 2008 12:07 am

    WoW Zahra Asif,

    I am amazed at your liberelism, sagacity and justice. Mashallah. 23 Medicals School students (4 of them are final year students) have been expelled. And your well sopisticate friends are protesting (Peaceful as it may be) against their admission. WOW.. I just can not stop Wowingg. Are you a medical student your self? do you know how much it takes to get there, and how would you feel if at the last step of the ladder you are forced to step OUT. And please dont even talk about right. It doesnt suit you.

  191. Hamza says:
    June 14th, 2008 3:35 am

    let me tell you my own personal experiance….
    25 years ago we were living in a small village close to a big city with lot of good play grounds. The city ppl used to come to play cricket, hockey, kabadi and our village had good teams so it was always a very healthy activity. The village teams had 40~50 % Ahamidies and beleive me there was no issue / problem every one used to enjoy……
    Then a moliv came and every thing was ruined …. now we have no team and the younger ppl enjoy watching movies, playing snooker and having charass, cocane, herion, etc

    Thanks to the molvi

    In PMC same type of Molvi came and now……….

  192. Hamza says:
    June 14th, 2008 3:53 am

    even at that time no have the guts to say or side by what is right and what is wrong as far as the basic Islamic teachings are concerned nor any one those who matter have it today…..

  193. ? ? ? ? says:
    June 14th, 2008 3:59 am

    The decision of Expelling ahmedi students is right. because ahmedies are not allowed to preach their religion. and the Supreme court of Pakistan has already banned them to do such.

  194. June 14th, 2008 6:40 am

    Although preaching of their religious beliefs in college by students who are believer of beliefs of Ahmedi belief is definately ununderstandable,.they should study their medical subjects.Anyhow at the same time no one should be allowewd to take law in their hands .Students who have done so by breaking norms of law from both side should be taken at task and drastic punishment should be given to them who proved to be guilty ,.

  195. Dewana Phir Say says:
    June 14th, 2008 8:35 am
  196. Rehan01 says:
    June 14th, 2008 1:34 pm

    @Zahra Asif:

    “I believe it was a wise action as such a re-admission could lead to violent protests and put the lives of those 23 Qadiani students in danger as well. Let me assure you, brothers, that there were no Jama

  197. Atif Mian says:
    June 14th, 2008 2:19 pm

    There is an interesting contemporary comparison. The bigoted mullahs tried to prevent ahmadis from holding public events in Hyderabad, India as well. The difference in India though is that the High court ruled in favor of the Ahmadis.

    http://www.thehindu.com/2008/06/14/stories/2008061458690300.htm

  198. Saim says:
    June 15th, 2008 11:40 am

    It is really sad to know that non muslims have no right in this country. They have been time and again discriminated my the majority specially the mullahs in the name of blasphemy and other such religious laws which provide no protection to the minorities. And amongst these the Ahmadis have been the worst hit. Ppl have tried to justify the recent expulsion of Ahmadi students by stating the ahmadis don’t have a right to preach their religion however our constitution clearly states that a person is free to practice, profess and propagate his religion. Just because Pakistan was made on the name of Islam doesn’t mean that non muslims have no right in this country or we muslims have a licence to treat them as second class citizens. It’s high time that we muslims should stand up against these so called maulvis (who have no idea about the religion) and provide protection to the country’s non muslims who account for just 3.72% of the total pop of Pakistan and thus need our help. Lets all make a better Pakistan, a Pakistan which was envisaged by Quaid-e-Azam and not the one which is envisaged by racist religious parties like the JI and Jamiat e Tulaba

  199. Butt says:
    June 15th, 2008 11:48 am

    Islam is being preached as peaceful religion and with our actions we prove otherwise.

  200. shahid says:
    June 15th, 2008 4:00 pm

    it is sad that such an incident has happened in Pakistan. Expelling a couple of Ahmedia students on the pretext of preaching their religion in medical college is really absurd. Students who were about to me doctors in a couple of years have been deliberately deprived of the right to be doctors on the assertion of Islami Jamait tulba.
    It is also debatable as to whether “AHMEDIAS” are muslim or not. A bleak decision in Pakistan’s history of which no one gained any thing except a few notorious organizations in Pakistan.
    Had this incident of expulsion happened in highly integral countries the principal would have had to pay for the ugly act. This act is shameful, assaultive and insulting.

  201. imaan says:
    June 16th, 2008 2:48 am

    it s really unjust with the ahmadi students….
    after their enquiry it has been find out that none was guilty…no preaching was done..not a single student got converted…n now the jamiyat is threatening the college that if these students returned they will protest this…
    who r these to violate the rights of ahmadis when they r on open merit…nobody has the right to expel them if there is no proof of their preaching n convertin…
    this is more then enough….is this justice??/ specially in a country following islam…the religion of justice n peace…
    its shameful 4 the country n principal of PMC…

  202. Dewana Phir Say says:
    June 16th, 2008 9:13 pm

    “We have not received any application against Ahmadi students and to rusticate them was just under pressure exerted by the students on July 5,” said warden Dr Khalid Mahmood. “The principal has constituted a committee of five senior teachers of PMC that will investigate the matter and whoever is found guilty will be punished. All the students involved in the matter are being called upon individually for interrogation. Two girls who have allegedly converted submitted their affidavits to the administration saying they have not. We will accommodate the Ahmadi students if the committee finds them innocent. We will also provide them with proper security if needed,” he said.

    But it is not so easy now to accommodate Ahmadi students as majority of students of PMC are not ready to welcome them. “PMC has a very rich history of curbing this fitna. In the 1974 movement against the Ahmadis, PMC played a very important role. Some of our teachers who were then students of PMC took an active part in that movement. We are once again ready to lead such a movement if the Ahmadi students are allowed to come back to PMC,” said Moeen (name changed), a student of third year. Many others at the college support his view.

    http://jang.com.pk/thenews/jun2008-weekly/nos-15-06-2008/enc.htm#1

  203. MHQ says:
    June 17th, 2008 12:59 am

    Let Ahmadis become doctors, ultimately the worst enemies of Ahmadiyya require their treatment.

    When General Zia-ul-Haq, the military dictator who passed the oppressive anti-Ahmadiyya ordinance, was to have eye surgery, he insisted his Ahmadi surgeon perform it. General Zia felt he would be free of an assassination risk while under an Ahmadi’s care.

    Last year when Fazl-ur-Rahman got heart attack, an Ahmadi doctor was called from US for his treatment
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/urdu/pakistan/story/2007/02/070206_fazal_heart_rs.shtml

  204. Ordinary Citizen says:
    June 17th, 2008 1:15 am

    “Last year when Fazl-ur-Rahman got heart attack, an Ahmadi doctor was called from US for his treatment”. Now we know why most Pakistanis dislike Ahmadis :)))

  205. Rasheed says:
    June 17th, 2008 2:08 am

    “When General Zia-ul-Haq, the military dictator who passed the oppressive anti-Ahmadiyya ordinance, was to have eye surgery, he insisted his Ahmadi surgeon perform it.

    Last year when Fazl-ur-Rahman got heart attack, an Ahmadi doctor was called from US for his treatment” – MQH
    ————

    I’ve read about it, too. The eye surgeon was General Naseem Ahmad, Brigadier at the time, whom Gen. Zia trusted over others. I’ve heard that even afterwards, people like Prez. Musharraf and others close to him continue to seek and get the services of Gen. Naseem Ahmad.

    Also, when Zia-ul-Haque needed a prostate operation, he reportedly insisted that Gen. Mehmoodul Hassan, another Ahmadi surgeon, perform the operation.

    Someone made a humorous remark that if you were to throw a pebble up into the air at an Ahmadiyya conference, chances were high it would land on a doctor :) . You’ve got to give that much to this community – it’s produced some well educated Pakistanis, who do not limit their favors and services to within members of their own community, which is the way humanity should be. There should be acceptance of others at all levels and directions within the nation.

  206. Atif Mian says:
    June 17th, 2008 2:16 am

    “The persecution of Ahmadis even under the present mangled constitution is patently unconstitutional. A fair court of law would have noticed and pounced on the Ahmadi-specific legislation that has crept into our statute books for every single one of these laws violate a couple dozen fundamental rights accorded to the citizens of Pakistan not the least Article 20 which gives every citizen the right to practice and propagate his or her religion without any caveats.”

    A useful related article on another blog:

    http://www.chowk.com/articles/14234

  207. Daud says:
    June 17th, 2008 9:10 am

    The mullahs are too powerful in Pakistan. I don’t see these students getting back in PMC. They should look at other career options.

  208. Daud says:
    June 17th, 2008 9:17 am

    If the commitee decides to bring them back which is highly unlikely because the mullahs have threatened them with bloodbaths, there will be a bloodbath. The ‘Mulsims’ of PMC, our future doctors will let nothing stand in their way. If a ‘westernized’ leader like Bhutto can cower under the pressure these mullahs can exert how can you expect the administration at PMC to think straight. The tensions are simply too high. If I were one of these students I would start looking at immigration prospects. Leave it until its too late.

  209. Dewana Phir Say says:
    June 17th, 2008 5:22 pm

    Mullahs are threatening violence and nationwide riots. Salman Taseer is not on their most favoured list either;

    http://www.dailyislam.pk/dailyislam/Images/news/national/daily/nat-03.jpg

    This problem began with current government in place while those students were studying there for years without a problem. Shehbaz government is not doing anything to contain this either and their student wing MSF is actually involved in this incident.

  210. Dewana Phir Say says:
    June 20th, 2008 4:18 am

    More trouble brewing for these kids;

    http://www.express.com.pk/epaper/Article.aspx?newsID=1100429362&Date=20080620&Issue=NP_LHE

    Where are human rights activists and civil society when you need them?

  211. maham says:
    July 1st, 2008 9:58 am

    unfortunately Pakistan has lost their 23 doctors. this is “”"”"NOT”"”"” a good idea to rusticate the ahhmadiyya students. their is no relegios independence in pakistan . i think this is a big loss of Pakistani nation that they have lost their 23 M BBS Doctors.
    it is shameful 4 the country n principal of PMC
    how we can say that pakistan is an independent country.

  212. Rehaan says:
    July 3rd, 2008 6:46 am

    HRCP statement on PMC Ahmedi students’ episode

    Lahore, July 03, 2008: The Human Rights Commission of Pakistan on Wednesday expressed its concern at the authorities’ failure to redress the grievances of the unlawfully expelled Ahmedi students of a Faisalabad college and demanded strict action against the trouble-makers.

    In a statement, HRCP Co-chairman Iqbal Haider said the rustication of 23 Ahmedi students of the Punjab Medical College, Faisalabad, early last month on the ground of their belief was apparently a case of extraordinary discrimination. The HRCP, therefore, requested a senior member of its governing body to probe the matter.

    This inquiry showed that while rusticating the students, the college administration did not follow the rules prescribed for this extreme action; that the committee of teachers set up to examine the victims after the event included teachers who were in the body that had taken the decision to rusticate them; and that a few students who appeared before the investigating committee were unduly harassed and intimidated. There were also indications that some members of the faculty colluded with the Ahmedi-baiting trouble-makers.

    The commission is, therefore, seriously apprehensive of justice being denied to the unlawfully expelled students. It calls upon the provincial and federal governments to intervene immediately to protect the wronged students and deal firmly with hate-preachers. Dawn

    http://www.interface.edu.pk/students/July-08/HRCP-statement-PMC-students.asp

  213. a m says:
    July 4th, 2008 2:19 am

    “FAISALABAD, July 3: Most shopkeepers in the city district observed a shutter-down strike on Thursday to press the authorities for registration of a case against the Ahmedi students who had been rusticated from the Punjab Medical College.

    The strike call was given by the Anjuman-i-Tajran city and clerics of different sects. ….”

    http://www.dawn.com/2008/07/04/nat34.htm

  214. Aamir says:
    July 4th, 2008 10:25 am

    Good article;

    Stop demonising the minorities

    Traditionally, the Ahmedis have been known to conceal their identity for fear of persecution in a society that is routinely fed with bias and hatred against this community by the fire-breathing clerics. When the college administration displayed the list on the notice board, it made the cardinal mistake of exposing the vulnerable students to the persecution of religious outfits, who are not averse to using violence. Such is the pressure of fundamentalist sections on state institutions that these elements literally get away with murder as a matter of routine. Even after the rustication of the Ahmedi students has been reversed, one could imagine the daily battle they will have to go through being surrounded by an extremely hostile atmosphere. Prejudice against the Ahmedi community is so deep seated in our society that if some students/teachers believe in non-discrimination and equal rights for minorities, they cannot come out openly in support for the risk of being labelled as pro-Ahmedi.

    The kind of behaviour that has been meted out to them will surely have its repercussions. How can the students be expected to give a 100 percent performance in their exams, if they know that the whole system is biased against them?

    http://www.thepost.com.pk/vis.aspx

  215. M.Khan says:
    July 6th, 2008 12:13 pm

    I think, Pakistan’s governments owned academic institutions have been center of student based religious organizations. The example was set by groups like IJT and other factions of Jamat e islami. So if any other sect is doing it, it becomes their right.

    However Government owned institutions should exercise their power to stop all religious student organizations belonging to any sect of minority. The issue is more problematic then it seems since these kinds of incidents tarnish Pakistan’s image on International canvas, since Ahmidi’s have a very strong business support with in Faisalabad region and outside Pakistan as well.

    The power hungry student bodies like PSF, MSF, or any religious affiliated body should consider the consequences before their actions.

    To counter as to what has happened I think it

  216. July 7th, 2008 3:02 am

    Well its pretty obvious that these kids won’t be going back to PMC anytime soon. I don’t think the Mullahs of Faisalabad will let them become doctors. Best thing for them to do is probably to get immigration and leave Pakistan. When you think about it, it might be a blessing in disguise. I mean what better opportunity to get out of this country and make a life.

  217. Rehan01 says:
    July 7th, 2008 11:14 pm

    Mullahs threaten Jihad against Punjab Medical College if outcome is not in their favour;

    http://www.express.com.pk/epaper/Article.aspx?newsID=1100440650&Date=20080708&Issue=NP_LHE

    So much for justice in Nawaz league

  218. Rehan01 says:
    July 7th, 2008 11:16 pm

    PS: Now lal masjid operation and waziristan issue is blamed on Ahmadis too…..amazing. There must be something Ahmadis did not do.

  219. Fawad ihsan says:
    July 26th, 2008 3:53 pm

    Hello sir, I want to addmission in your college. please send me addmission form on my address.
    Ittehad Gas Corner and filling zone near govt. high school no.1 mingora swat. I shall be very thankful. THANK YOU

  220. Rehan01 says:
    September 11th, 2008 8:46 pm

    Popular media has now jumpoed in and is openly providing platform to issue death edicts apprenlty resulting in deaths. If there is such a thing less than dark ages, we are there.

    [Quote]Former Pakistani National Assembly member, Amir Liaquat Hussain, and a discussion panel of two mullahs classified the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community as Wajib-ul-Qatil (obligatory to be killed) during a live broadcast on Geo TV

  221. Rehman says:
    September 12th, 2008 3:50 am

    BBC

  222. Rehman says:
    September 12th, 2008 12:58 pm

    Please support Asian Human Rights Commission urgent appeal;

    http://www.ahrchk.net/ua/mainfile.php/2008/2999/

  223. Rehman says:
    September 13th, 2008 1:24 pm

    International Federation of Journalists has condemned GEO TV and Dr Aamir Liaquat and have held them legally responsible for the two Ahmadis murdered;

    [Quote]The International Federation of Journalists (IFJ) is horrified to learn that two people belonging to a minority religious sect in Pakistan were murdered shortly after a broadcaster on one of the country

  224. Watan Aziz says:
    March 5th, 2009 10:27 pm

    ~~Punjab Medical College Expels 23 Ahmedi Students~~

    The title of the post is wrong.

    It should be “Punjab Medical College Expels 23 Students“.

    The wrongful and baseless charges against one is a wrongful and baseless charge against all.

    Beliefs of anyone should not be part of the story. They are both irrelevant and divisive.

  225. murda qaum ki nishani says:
    March 6th, 2009 1:13 am

    “Watan Aziz @
    Beliefs of anyone should not be part of the story. They are both irrelevant and divisive.”

    The expulsion was based on the beliefs of the students. There is no “story” without that part.

    Are you in denial or simply unable to handle the discomfort caused by the crystal clear injustice committed by the holier than thous. I wonder why the self proclaimed heirs to the title of a musalmaan feel so insecure.

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