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The Lal Masjid Assault on Islamabad

Posted on April 7, 2007
Filed Under >Adil Najam, Law & Justice, Politics, Religion, Society
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Adil Najam

Just over a week ago, I had written: “The pictures coming out of Islamabad are not good. Not good at all.” Since then, they have only gotten worse.

The city that I spent so many of my formative years in is under siege from within. But more than that the capital of the country is under assault from self-righteous zealots who not only believe that they and only they can determine who is right and who is not but are bent to enforce their will on others.



And a military government that has otherwise not been shy of using force but whose legitimacy has been shattered by its recent misuse of force, sits on the sideline like a tamashai. Either the cynics are right in believing that it prefers the distraction, or it has actually realized that the fabric of society is now so torn and divided that mistimed action could wreck inimaginable – and uncontainable – havoc… not only on the government’s longevity but on the nation’s survival.

Following the kidnapping of an alleged ‘brothel’ by the women students of Jamia Hafsa – who still hold a children’s library hostage – the leaders have not only declared victory but have upped the ante by announcing the establishment of a ‘Shariat Court’ of their own and, according to Dawn, “vowed to enforce Islamic laws in the federal capital and threatened to unleash a wave of suicide bombers if the government took any action to counter it.” The report in Dawn goes on to say:

“Our youth will commit suicide attacks, if the government impedes the enforcement of the Sharia and attacks Lal Masjid and its sister seminaries,” Maulana Abdul Aziz, the in-charge of the mosque said in his Friday sermon. The fresh suicide bombing threat is stated to be the strongest given so far by the hard-line clerics of the Lal Masjid, intensifying fear among Islamabad residents.

President Gen Pervez Musharraf had recently stated that he knew that the Lal Masjid’s management wilfully harboured suicide bombers. He said that the suicide bomber who had attacked Islamabad’s Marriott Hotel in January 2007, had been seen near the mosque the same day.

Maulana Abdul Aziz announced the setting up of a Qazi court in his sermon that also marked the opening of a three-day Nifaz Sharia-o-Azmat Jihad Conference. A large number of supporters had reached the mosque. The government did nothing to stop the groups of people coming from different cities and nearby areas throughout the day to participate in the conference.

Religious activists, some of whom were wearing masks, also staged a demonstration before the Friday prayers. Burqa-clad girl students of Madressah Hafsa kept a vigil atop the seminary’s roof. The activists were chanting “Al Jihad, Al Jihad”. Armed with sticks, a group of religious activists set on fire thousands of video and audio cassettes and computer compact discs, “given up” voluntarily by a shopowner who, according to them, had announced to abandon “this business”.

Maulana Aziz reminded the shopkeepers that they had been given a 30-day deadline to close down their “evil” businesses and switch over to some other “decent” venture and said students of the seminary would punish the shopkeepers who did not do so. He asked traders to financially “support” the owners of video and CDs shops to enableg them to switch over to some other business. Maulana Aziz urged the authorities and the people concerned to stop dealing in video CDs, putting up billboards with womens photographs, selling liquor and running “brothels” and drug dens in Islamabad.

MARRIAGE PROPOSAL: Maulana Aziz said that a “special centre” had been set up in Madressah Hafsa titled “Taibaat Abidaat Centre” to provide shelter to women who would voluntarily give up their “immoral activities”. He said these women would be provided “security and protection” through “marriages”. Maulana Aziz announced that he would marry any woman who repented and gave up her immoral life. “I am now 46 years old and am ready to marry a woman who is between 35 to 40 years of age. If she promises to live a life of piety, I promise that I will never refer about her past life,” Maulana Aziz announced.

Maulana Aziz said that they would enforce Sharia in areas which had been under their influence. The management of the mosque informed the media that “Qazi court” would comprise 10 Muftis. However, it declined to disclose their name.

A source told Dawn that no renowned scholar had been made the judge of the “Qazi court” and it consisted of teachers of the Madressah Faridia, a seminary which was also being run by Lal Masjid.

QAZI COURT: Maulana Ghazi Abdul Rasheed, deputy in-charge of the mosque and a younger brother of Maulana Abdul Aziz, told reporters if Jirga and Panchayat system were not considered parallel judicial systems why was Qazi court being called a parallel system. “We will see whether people will come to the Qazi court or prefer going to courts of the state for seeking justice,” he said.

Describing the functions of the “Qazi court”, Maulana Ghazi said it would be mandatory for rival parties to submit an affidavit that they would accept the court’s decision. “They will have to obey the court’s verdicts,” he replied when some reporters asked him what action would the administration of Lal Masjid take against ‘disobedient people’. He said they would launch a campaign to ‘persuade’ people to bring their disputes and social problems to the “Qazi court”.

While most political forces in the country have condemned these announcements, the MMA finds itself in a particular fix on this one. According to the separate Dawn report:

“We have nothing to do with the issue,” said deputy chief of Jamaat-i-Islami (JI) Liaquat Baloch when contacted by Dawn for comments on the action taken by some clerics and students of Lal Masjid and its affiliated Madressah Hafsa. Opposition Leader in the National Assembly and head of his own faction of the Jamiat-i-Ulema-Islam (JUI-F) Maulana Fazlur Rehman refused to talk on the issue. His mobile phone was attended by a person named Abdul Sattar who said that the Maulana would not speak on the Madressah Hafsa issue. “If you want to talk on the Madressah Hafsa issue, the Maulana will not talk to you and he has said the same thing to several TV channels’ correspondents,” he said.

Mr Liaquat Baloch said that the setting up of Qazi courts and enforcement of Sharia in a particular area was an “independent decision” of the Lal Masjid administration and a reaction to the government’s “foolish policy” of promoting obscenity by propagating Gen Musharraf’s so-called enlightened moderation. When asked if he condemned the decision of the Lal Masjid administration of setting up parallel courts, Mr Baloch said the MMA believed in the Constitution of Pakistan and was struggling for its enforcement. He said the government should avoid any action against Madressah Hafsa which might lead to bloodshed. He also advised the Lal Masjid administration to join the MMA’s larger struggle for the rule of constitution in the country.

Replying to a question on the presence of party MNA Mian Aslam in Lal Masjid on Friday, Mr Baloch said that he had been sent by the party after receiving a report that some Ulema were going to announce the stoning to death punishment for someone. The report, however, proved wrong when the Ulema told the MNA that they were planning to pelt the seized video CDs with stones.

Pakistan Muslim League-N (PML-N) information secretary Ahsan Iqbal told Dawn that the Lal Masjid Ulema were only following Gen Musharraf’s doctrine that one could use the power of gun to impose a particular agenda on the society. “There is no difference between what Gen Musharraf is doing and what the Lal Masjid Ulema are doing,” he said. He said the situation reflected the crisis of governance inflicted by the seven-year rule of Gen Musharraf. During the Musharraf era, he said, the nation had witnessed a rise in ethno-nationalist militancy and religious extremism.

It is true that this government – but also all the governments before it, going back to the government of Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto, have varying responsibilities in getting the situation to this dire stage. It is also true that this action by the Lal Masjid leadership might help the government in the very short term – by providing a distraction from the Chief Justice fiasco and also by reminding many Pakistanis who had once supported Gen. Musharraf but no longer do why they had done so in the first place.

But in the final analysis the drama that is playing out in Islamabad today is much bigger than this government or its health. This is about what Pakistan is and what it is going to be. To confuse what is happening in Islamabad today with the mere machinations of a few clerics or the survival tactics of government types is not only to miss the point, it could very well mean missing the boat on something that will influence the future of both the state and of society.

329 Comments on “The Lal Masjid Assault on Islamabad”

  1. jk says:
    April 7th, 2007 1:38 am

    Can’t they all just commit plain old fashioned suicides, alone, in their lal masjids, instead of the now popular “suicide-attacks”? They would be doing a great service to society and our collective gene-pool.

    These people are threatening to kill innocent Pakistani lives if laws created by the people are enforced. Simply horrific.

    It’s funny how it is always the “youth” that goes and fights in wars and commits suicide attacks. These old goats sit around preaching their bull and they trap impressionable young people to do their biddings. Our society has failed these children. And now these children have grown to be society’s worst nightmare.

    Fires must be put out before they spread. I hope the army/police quells this upheaval sooner than later. The worst thing that could happen to Pakistan is talibanization.

  2. Hamza says:
    April 7th, 2007 1:39 am

    Sadly, I feel that many Pakistanis do not feel that this is a particularly dangerous development. The sheer fact that the self styled guardians of Islam will soon appear on this blog and attempt to defend the mullahs at Jamia Hafsia will testify to the fact that a good number of people in our society support these lunatics and their extreme version of Islam.

    With regard to these crazies, how does one reason or even negotiate with them? They seem so determined to break the laws of Pakistan and impose their obscurantist version of Islam upon the largely moderate citizens of Pakistan. They have gone so far as to have threatened suicide bombings if their demands for Sharia law are not met. This is the time when the state has to remove the velvet glove and crack down with the iron fist. Yet, as we are all painfully aware, this government is more concerned with prolonging it’s stay in power rather than preserving even a modicum of the state’s writ.

    Where is this country going? Judging by the events of the past few weeks, it doesn’t look like we’re headed for a rosy future.

  3. April 7th, 2007 1:47 am

    Pakistanis are stuck between a rock and a hard place. Its either dictatorship or ghundaa-gardi. Ahsan Iqbal is right. These ghundas from the madrassahs are learning the hathkandaa tactics from the government machinery.

    It is sad that the political parties are not coming out unanimously against this oppression by the madrassahs and their students. Who are the people that still go to these mosques?

  4. jk says:
    April 7th, 2007 1:48 am

    Well, they do only have dandas. I am not very well versed in weaponology. How much damage can a danda really do?

    If our army is called in to defend the city and restore order, then these guys wouldn’t stand a chance. A wise person once said, “Never bring a danda to a gun fight”

    That being said, Uncle Mushi should realize that it’s never safe to play with fire for too long. It’s better to put it out before any one gets hurt.

  5. MQ says:
    April 7th, 2007 2:06 am

    The question is how come the Mullah of the Lal Masjid manages to remain beyond the “long arm of the law”?

  6. Jabir Khan says:
    April 7th, 2007 2:08 am

    After every military rule, the country faces the chaos of unimagineable magnitude.

    Some years back, there were predictions in the international media about Pakistan being ripe for revolution. The grounds for which being lawlessnes, corruption, income gap and tattered democratic system. Are we at the door step of that dreaded event?

    Shame on ‘intellectuals’ for not reading the pulses of the nation correctly and failing to guide it in a unified way.

    Why don’t Musharraf reinstate CJP without delay? Is this still the matter of ‘personal taste’?

  7. Harris says:
    April 7th, 2007 2:34 am

    There will be blood in the streets of Islamabad soon. Lets see if our government has what it takes to make sure that it’s the blood of these zealots and not of the innocent residents of Islamabad.

  8. April 7th, 2007 3:05 am

    Lexus vs. The Olive Tree – desi style

  9. Saad says:
    April 7th, 2007 3:34 am

    Geo TV report on the above declaration of Sharia’ah by the Jami’ah Hafsa administration.

    Jami’ah Hafsa – Geo TV – Implementing Sharia’ah

  10. AR Rafiq says:
    April 7th, 2007 3:58 am

    In the meantime we have Madam Pinky BB planning here grand trip back with the recent release of her updated autobiography, see http://rzone.techrabita.com/ for details. Further we have a major tussle between the City Government, provincial, federal and Karachi citizens over the development scheme of the water front – http://rzone.techrabita.com/2007/04/saahil-bachaosave-karachis-beaches.html
    What next – Talibanization of Pakistan – I doubt it, Pakistan unlike Afghanistan is way to progressive. Pakistani’s far more liberal minded, independent thinking to allow any Talibanization of the country. It wont happen, now or in a 100 years.

  11. blue and grey says:
    April 7th, 2007 4:17 am

    Hamza, after discussing with a few persons in Islamabad, I go the same impression. People don’t seem to be realising how dangerous this is and how far this could go. And I am talking about people who are basically against these things. But somehow, the persons I talked with seemed to say that this was not such a big thing. Maybe this is denial in the face of something really scary and bad. Or maybe we’ve gotten so much used to bad stuff happening in our country that we just don’t react anymore…

    And yet we all reacted when the CJ fiasco occured. We got organised pretty quickly. It seems to me that this issue is not spurring us into action.

    On a slightly different but related topic. The words used by the journalist(s) make me very uncomfortable… It almost makes it feel like what they are doing is legitimate since they are only ‘enforcing the Shariah”. IMHO, a better statement would have been, they are enforcinge what THEY believe the Shariah to be. That immediatly changes the listener’s perspective. I think that everyone needs to make an effort so that it is crystal clear that we don’t think that these folks are talking about Islam. They are propagating something that is the product of their own minds: violence, force and hatred.

  12. king_faisal says:
    April 7th, 2007 4:32 am

    everything in pakistan is about politics. pakistanis have absolutely no qualms about lying in order to push a political agenda because politics is only thing pakistanis excel at. current happenings in islamabad are child’s play compared to what took place under democratic government. events are being blown out of proportion because chinks have been spotted in government’s armour. blood is being dangled in front of awam to cause the awam to go on a feeding frenzy. much to the dismay awam refuses to bite. tens of thousands of people came to celebrate eid-ay-milad- un-nabi but not more that a few hundred people are willing to take opposition’s bait. why? dont hold your saans for an answer because imtellectual honest is a trait not found in pakistani dna.

    religious violence under the democratic government of nawaz sharif in late 90′s got so bad that even a dolt like nawaz realised that he had to do something. days after nawaz made the announcement of crackdown, jehadis planted a bomb on a bridge used by nawaz that missed killing him by minutes. nawaz’s response to this incident was to make a public announcement rescinding his earlier declaration of crackdown. right around the time of this incident, jehadis went inside a shia mosque in multan and killed sixteen namazees during sujdah. both stories are mentioned in the following link:

    http://www.tribuneindia.com/1999/99jan06/world.htm#1

    my family and i live abroad and all my money is invested outside pakistan. so i am safe. to those wishing the return of bad old days, i hope you or your loved ones become a suffer like thousands of people who paid the ultimate price for the sins of people like benazir, nawaz and altaf hussain. for those who escape, i hope pakistan becomes bankrupt as it was in late 90′s so that you or your loved have the same difficulty in buying food and medicine like irqais who lived through sanctions under saddam. i know my prescription sounds harsh but for people unwilling to learn the lessons of history there is no other cure. pain and suffering are the best medicine.

  13. Abdullah says:
    April 7th, 2007 5:04 am

    Adil !

    U immediately post here all the pictures in which u r interested to show.

    Why not u post any comment about recent pictures of honorable minister of tourism “Nilofer Bikhtia”, in which she is hugging a French man after parachute jump.

    U should show the extremisim of liberals

    http://khabrain.com/htmls/pg8.htm

  14. Abdullah says:
    April 7th, 2007 5:11 am

    Please read another article on the same issue with the title of “Hikmat kee zaroorat”

    http://kashifhafeez.com/mazameen.php

  15. niqab supporter says:
    April 7th, 2007 5:26 am

    niqabi sisters zindabad busharraf enlightened moderate will go away into the sunset of history –
    niqabi sisters zindabad!

  16. blue and grey says:
    April 7th, 2007 5:39 am

    I don’t want BB or NS, but I don’t want this either. Both of them say that things went wrong during their time at the PM office, because the army held the real power. Why should we think that it will be any different this time. And I don’t want what we have right now and definitely don’t want a land of intolerance. I want to live with my dignity and freedom intact. I think that we pakistanis have made too many compromises, for way too long. I am tired of having to chose between people who manipulate us, destroy the country and tear us apart… all of them! Look at what we have become!

  17. Khobar says:
    April 7th, 2007 6:35 am

    No wonder why the Generalissmo is trying his best to show ‘tolerance’ in this affair when right in the heart of the capital city the footages of anarchy are being constantly shown.

    The military government did not hesitate to bring paramilitary forces out to quell peaceful demonstrations of the lawyers in support of ‘non-functional’ Chief Justice. But here in cleric’s demonstrations the mob is openly challenging the Generalissmo and the Government is keeping aloof.

    There is vested interest behind this tolerance shown by the Government. They want to show their masters in the White House that if the present government is ousted then mullahs will take over. It is just a gimmick to frighten George Bush.

    These tricks by the Government will not be successful and sooner this man who is ‘in the line of fire, will be shown his way out of the capital.

  18. jk says:
    April 7th, 2007 8:42 am

    Abdullah > You are equating a hug, that harms no one, with threats of suicide bombings?

    This is the reason why the mullah is powerful in Pakistan. They have successfully taught their followers that suicide bombings, anarchy, lawlessness, and murder are noble actions, while something as insignificant, and ultimately harmless, as a hug is far, far worse.

    This is beyond frightening and depressing.

  19. jk says:
    April 7th, 2007 8:51 am

    Khobar > I agree. The gathering and organization of an educated bunch of people is far more dangerous to a corrupt government than a bunch of fools with dandas.

    Unfortunately, the inverse is true for our society: The gathering and organization of a violent, anarchic, murderous group of fools is devastating. What we need is for our educated, and intelligent people to become organized.

  20. Disciple says:
    April 7th, 2007 8:57 am

    http://kashifhafeez.com/kh_articles/large/2007-02-28.gif

    Mullahs want their ajara daaree even on internet and not happy if they can’t.

  21. April 7th, 2007 9:00 am

    This is an example of the dilemma that Pakistanis face today. Should the government have a right to ban a website because it does not agree with the philosophy beng promoted by it?

    While I am mad at the immoral behavior of the Jamia Hafsa or Lal Masjid students, should the government have a right to shut down their right to free speech? http://dawn.com/2007/04/07/nat9.htm

  22. jk says:
    April 7th, 2007 9:08 am

    Bilal Zuberi> I don’t agree with the censoring of any type of information. In fact, I believe that censoring something ends up making it more popular.

    However, my problem is with the lack of critical thinking skills that exist in Pakistan. Many times I have heard people sprouting out complete fallacies, and when asked to explain their reason for believing nonsense, they just say, “Well, I read it in a book.”

    Should censorship be allowed in a society that can not think for it self? I don’t know. We censor things from little children because we know they lack reasoning skills. Should we censor ideas from adults who lack the same skills?

  23. Disciple says:
    April 7th, 2007 9:23 am

    Lal Masjid is government mosque and these guys are enjoying ‘aik ticket main do muzay’ by being both on government payroll and also enjoying the freedom of expression against government at the same time. Know anyone else who can do that? Certainly Mullahs are the most privilege category in the country.

  24. Adnan Siddiqi says:
    April 7th, 2007 11:06 am

    Today I read in papers tht Hafsa mgmt has threathened of sucide bombing. If it’s true and not a false reporting on behalf of madrassah mgmt then I must condemn this warning which is really not an Islamic act at all.

    I have been arguing for many years about the sucidal activities in Mideast region in Palestine specially that why I consider this act by them as a last resort of survival but Hafsa Mgmt clearly doesn’t lie in such category neither they are suffering like iraqis and palestinians.

    I would always appreciate their action against filth of society that is closing of brothel and burning videos but their “method” of preaching with help of sucidal attempts is certainly not a right way at all but then who shuold be blamed? here people who have been chanting for many days are not saint either,it’s just they have not been exposed infront of public. When Is Hammam me sab nangay hain then oponents of hafsa don’t sound sane to condemn oponents. When I am being forced to deal with dictator Musharraf then why not Ghazi Rasheed?

  25. pindiwalla says:
    April 7th, 2007 11:09 am

    Abdullah – pray tell us what is wrong with Nilofer hugging a frenchman? Especially if he is cute!

  26. Jabir Khan says:
    April 7th, 2007 11:52 am

    Lal Masjid is a government mosque

    And I heard the incharge is a 16 grade officer? Is it true?

    Adnan wrote:
    Is Hammam me sab nangay hain

    And the naked King is not even in hammam but on public display.

  27. jinni says:
    April 7th, 2007 11:56 am

    The Governments over the years have encouraged and fostered this frankenstein which is coming back to haunt us.

  28. Hamza says:
    April 7th, 2007 12:10 pm

    With regards to government ban on the Lal Masjid website, it might be best to examine the constitution of Pakistan. While we all hope for free speech, the constitution does place limitations to the free speech allowed in this country.

    19. Freedom of speech, etc.
    Every citizen shall have the right to freedom of speech and expression, and there shall be freedom of the press, subject to any reasonable restrictions imposed by law in the interest of the glory of Islam or the integrity, security or defence of Pakistan or any part thereof, friendly relations with foreign States, public order, decency or morality, or in relation to contempt of court,[commission of] or incitement to an offence.

    They can justify their censorship based on principle that the clerics of Lal Masjid are inciting suicide bombing against the state and are thus a threat to the “security or defence of Pakistan”. Moreover, they are also guilty of “incitement to an offence”, that is, promoting violence and openly encouraging citizens to break laws.

    I’m not justifying censorship here – I’m just pointing out that according to the constitution (or whatever is left of it) – they do have a “reasonably” free hand in this matter.

  29. Social Mistri says:
    April 7th, 2007 12:10 pm

    Abdullah, come ON!!! How sick is it to think of an friendly embrace in a way that makes someone believe that NB did something immoral? Khuda ka wasta!! So am I to think that the Arab male greetings of two kisses on the cheek makes all Arabs homosexual??? How ridiculous is this! That’s why I contend that mullahism and a desire to interpret (yes, DESIRE) religion so strictly that it loses all elements of humanity and becomes a danda-parade is a sign of an unwell mind. It is truly the mullah virus.

    If Rasoolillah (peace upon him and his family) was here today, he would have ordered full time commando action against Laal masjid, as he did against Masjid-e-Zarrar in his own time.

    Free speech and all is fine. I respect it. But Laal masjid has gone over that line. They’ve ruined people’s businesses, they’ve kidnapped and have occupied a children’s library. They have now threatened suicide bombings and are publicly raising funds for this violence. This cannot be allowed to stand!!

    You’ve got to take the source of the Mullah’s power away from him – and that would be the unending supplies of poor children whose parents can’t support them. If the government was to upgrade its own schools, in the short term create scholarships in private schools which paid for food + education, and guarantee jobs (like they are doing now – EXCELLENT program that Shaukat Aziz launched – EXCELLENT!), the Mullah virus would die out over time.

    That is a longer term play – maybe over the next 10 years. Today, however, I think you need to ruin the mullah’s credibility. They need to be caught on film with prostitutes, with their fingers in their nose… and other places… and they need to be caught taking bribes. This is all easy stuff to go do. Get them on video ala Tehelka and get their a$$e$ lynched by their own mobs. Fund dissent within their followers. Bribe them to “change their way of life” and talk publicy about the misery that pervades the seminary system etc. Spring a full on Goering.

  30. ahsan says:
    April 7th, 2007 12:26 pm

    “The question is how come the Mullah of the Lal Masjid manages to remain beyond the “long arm of the lawâ€

  31. Murtaza says:
    April 7th, 2007 12:32 pm

    why am i not surprised?i guess molvis have always tried to ruin our nation and they always will – period

  32. Jabir Khan says:
    April 7th, 2007 1:21 pm

    How sick is it to think of an friendly embrace in a way that makes someone believe that NB did something immoral?

    She is not an ordinary person but a minister, an ambassador by default during a foreign visit. She better have known that. On a side note, I wonder if the french man did this on purpose, knowing this will create a controversy back home?

    That is a longer term play – maybe over the next 10 years. Today, however, I think you need to ruin the mullah’s credibility. They need to be caught on film with prostitutes, with their fingers in their nose… and other places… and they need to be caught taking bribes. This is all easy stuff to go do. Get them on video ala Tehelka and get their a$$e$ lynched by their own mobs. Fund dissent within their followers. Bribe them to “change their way of lifeâ€

  33. blue and grey says:
    April 7th, 2007 1:23 pm

    A very good analytical article in DAWN’s thursday (April 5th) issue:

    http://dawn.com/2007/04/05/op.htm#1

    It analyses the evolution of the two different aspects of Pakistani law: human rights and religious. Ideally, the two should not come into conflict with each other. On the contrary they should reinforce each other. Unfortunately for us, the exact opposite has happened.

  34. MQ says:
    April 7th, 2007 1:29 pm

    Ahsan,

    I don’t know if you are playing a devil’s advocate or what, but all this business of “Objectives Resolution” and “Sovereignty belongs to Allah” and changing the country’s name to “Islamic Republic” were political gimmicks played by short-sighted politicians for short-term gains. Because of these political gimmicks the country, its constitution, and all its institutions are in mess today. I don’t know if or when we will be able to extract ourselves out of this mess.

    All I know is that if Jinnah, the founder of this nation, were to visit Jamia Hafsa today he would simply freak out!

  35. Jabir Khan says:
    April 7th, 2007 1:34 pm

    All I know is that if Jinnah, the founder of this nation, were to visit Jamia Hafsa today he would simply freak out!

    Ofcourse, provided he survives the story of 60 years first.

  36. tina says:
    April 7th, 2007 1:54 pm

    Naturally, Molvi Aziz only wants a woman of childbearing age, more than 10 years younger than himself. Sure he cares about women. The post doesn’t say, but I am guessing he is probably currently married, at age 46, perhaps already to more than one woman.

    Actually about this whole “marriage center” idea, as a woman I must say that so many angry thoughts come to mind, but I don’t feel I can articulate them politely right now.

    I am glad to see that most of the people on the thread see the true color of these lunatics. The Molvi Aziz is only looking to set himself in power, that is all. Religion is being used as a pawn in the game, and that is a shame.

  37. Jabir Khan says:
    April 7th, 2007 2:19 pm

    Exploitation of women and making them prostitutes is ok. Making botherls and giving them official protection is ok.

    But offering prostitutes a chance for a better life is for some a ‘shameless’ act. WOW.

    I am appaled and speechless.

    Let’s hear what prositutes have to say about it as it concerns them more than what a bunch of misguided liberals have to say.

    Infact this idea should have come from ‘liberal’ human rights champions corener first.

  38. bhindigosht says:
    April 7th, 2007 3:47 pm

    My thoughts:
    - I think the Govt is pursuing the correct policy (for whatever reasons) of not resorting to violence. Violence only begets more violence, and in the event of an attack on Lal Masjid, I would not be surprised if the Mullahs kill the women themselves and then blame it on the Govt. Anything that would provide any kind of empathy for this lot must be avoided at all cost.
    - On the other hand, the Govt must not be seen to be appeasing the Mullahs. Given the above, I am not sure how they will pursue this.
    - I do not think the Govt. is behind this, because they would not want the West to think that they are so weak in their own backyard.
    - However, the Masjid IS drawing its strength from somewhere.
    - Get rid of Ejaz-Ul-Haq. The guy is a spawn of that evil;Zia-Ul-Haq,and after all an apple does not fall far from the tree.
    - I think if one announcement comes through like reinstatement of CJ , or Mush doffing his wardi, the situation will become deflated. But Kaash itni aqal kahan.
    - The media MUST discredit the Lal Masjid crowd,and without any ambiguity. They must realize that a free and fair press is probably not in the Shariat agenda the Mullahs want to pursue.

  39. Adnan Siddiqi says:
    April 7th, 2007 4:27 pm

    Tina bibi, Pakistanis have experienced true color of both liberal and conservative class of Pakistan so better don’t worry about others.

    The issue is just being mishandled by the govt because it seems a reply by Mush to guys back in D.C that if they try to remove him[ CJ scandal and US's point of view against Mush] then they would have to deal with “terrorist Islam”. This is the reason I have not read any single statment by U.S dept of state yet.

    Or

    as I expressed my concerns here, it seems that David’s lawrence of Arabia plan is being taken seriously and work has been started. God knows the best. *shrug*

  40. Tahir says:
    April 7th, 2007 5:10 pm

    In the spirit of full disclosure, let me state that I naively supported Musharraf’s coup, voted for him in the 2002 referendum, and right upto his ‘suspension’ of the CJP, have defended his record against all manner of criticism, both at home and abroad.

    This latest episode of mullah-madness is yet another reminder of the costs of having a military regime, rather a civilian elected government. Numerous well informed people have speculated that this mayhem has been orchestrated by Musharraf to simultaneously, scare the West into sticking with Bulwark Musharraf, and take attention away from the illegal ‘suspension’ of CJ Iftikhar. Musharraf is a master of political expediency, and such speculation has a great deal of credibility.

    If the government really wanted to counter Jahilia Hafsa, some of the leading mullah-mussalis of that institution would have gone ‘missing’ by now, and others would have been bribed and/or coerced into silence.

    General Musharraf will do whatever it takes to hang on to his power, and indeed to his life, because there is no safe exit strategy for him. He can’t give up the post of COAS, because that means eventually also giving up the post of President, and becoming vulnerable to the many people who have personal and political scores to settle with him. He might even literally be hung upside up, if he gives up his office. General Zia ul Haq faced the same dilemna, and if it weren’t for an airplane accident, he would still have been occupying Aiwan-e-Sadr.

    Those of us who are to some degree sympathetic to Musharraf, need to understand that even though Musharraf has done a lot of good for Pakistan, he is not indispensable. Decision makers, domestic and foreign, should be persuaded that a democratically elected Pakistani leader would not only be able to carry on the war against terrorism, but actually do a much better job of it then Musharraf can.

    And of course we ought to learn the errors of our ways, at least I have. The elected civilian governments of 1990s, as incompetent and financially corrupt as they were, never had the kind of incestuous relationship with the mullahs, that Musharraf by necessity has.

    Finally, as unpleasant as the sight of loud, uncouth mullahs roaming the streets of Islamabad is, this is no Talibanization. It took a combination of foreign support and domestic credibility, for the Taliban to acheive power in Kabul. Pakistani mullahs have neither. For every mullah dancing around the bonfire of CDs, there are at least a 100,000 Pakistanis who watch foreign movies. Even in the more conservative parts of Pakistan, music and movies continue to thrive, you only have to look at Pashto music videos, produced in Peshawar, Swat and Mardan, posted on youtube, and aired on Khyber TV. Also, even though the Pakistan Army likes to flirt with the mullahs, it is a fundamentally secular institution, which will not countenance the rise of an alternative center of power (the mullahs), to challenge its current monopoly on political power.

  41. Jinni says:
    April 7th, 2007 5:19 pm

    Musharraf is finally under fire from all sides – the lawyers are up in arms, the CJ is still fuming from the humiliation he suffered, BB is turning up the heat in the Washington Post, the opposition is united as ever, some ex-generals are now openly asking him to step down – read Gen. Aslam Beg’s recent article and more than anything, the army’s pet boys, the maulvis are now flexing their muscles because many of their own folks are missing and part of the Govt. swoop down. So, all in all, we have a compelling cocktail of independent events that may lead to the outser of Mush. But, then again, the green signal needs to come from the US State Dept.

  42. Roshan says:
    April 7th, 2007 5:51 pm

    It reminded me an old saying:
    ‘You may fool all the people some of the time; you can even fool some of
    the people all of the time; but you can’t fool all of the people all the
    time’.

  43. Daktar says:
    April 7th, 2007 6:26 pm

    I consider myself a liberal and am no friend of the Maulvis, but reading this discussion, while I am of course appalled at the callousness of the Lal Masjid people I am equally appalled at some of the commentators, and this time not teh religiously inclined ones.

    Social Mistri, if you think it is a joke to talk about catching peopel in compromising positions with prostitutes etc., then let me tell you it is NOT funny at all. It is scary. Thsi is teh type fo thinkin that is for ISI and for the mullahs themselves. Frankly, reading many of your comments you come across as a mullah yourself… just on the liberal side. Your comments are as dogmatic and as hate filled any of them.

    I am very very worried that my country and people are being held hostage by people like these Lal Masjid fanatics. I woudl be equally worried if fanatics on the other side with yoru views of killing and lynching mullahs were to take control.

    We must stand against fanaticism of all varieties.

  44. Neena says:
    April 7th, 2007 6:32 pm

    No one can disagree with this Today the Pakistan Army is vast, and as an institution, has acquired enormous
    corporate interests that sprawl across real estate, manufacturing, and service sectors
    -
    Pervez Hoodbhoy
    .

    Some circles are saying that like other cities Islamabad too becoming a heaven for real estate so now government officials are eyeing large lands which can be grabbed easily. Lal mosque is happen to comprise large lot which most likely gifted by General Zia.

  45. Neena says:
    April 7th, 2007 6:33 pm

    Slightly off topic.

    Maulana Abdul Aziz is following on the foot step of his
    mentor Gen. Zia but I wonder why middle class educated Islamabadians following him is out of my mind. BTW, how one could follows the likes of Zia whose whole life is a contradiction. They sent their kids to west with public money and helped them to settle there but brain wash unsuspected citizens that west is nothing but evil.

    I should clarify family members are not responsible for each other actions but leaders should have a decency not to preach something which they do not believe in. It is not Ijaz ul Haq’s fault but it is his father’s.

  46. shocked says:
    April 7th, 2007 6:57 pm

    What is going on? Things are really getting out of hand

  47. Bulbul khan says:
    April 7th, 2007 8:18 pm

    Her biography on the Government of Pakistan website reads:

    Born in Dhok Kala Khan [Rawalpindi] Nilofer Bakhtiar is 55 years old. The family has a background of Social Worker and Military Service for over 4 generations.

    Begum Ali Malik, mother of Nilofer Bakhtiar, was a renowned social worker and was also the founder and chairperson of The National Committee for the Repatriation of POWs after the 71 war. At that time Begum Ali Malik went all over the world and met with Heads of State, and politicians including the Pope in Italy. Nilofer got passionately involved in social work right from childhood.
    High School: Presentation Convent Rawalpindi

    {{{PORTIONS DELETED}}}

  48. tina says:
    April 7th, 2007 8:19 pm

    Adnan–you are very right about that. How true.

    Jabir Khan–the Maulana is talking maybe about prostitutes, but he calls for “immoral women” so maybe not just limited to them. But let’s assume he means prostitutes.

    Let’s see. A woman goes to the masajid and marries someone there. This man is convinced she is defiled and dirty. He considers her “immoral”, when she was probably forced into selling herself as a child. He will look down on her for her whole life. He has married her as a charitable gesture and not out of any care for her as a person. Wow. What a great life she is being offered.

    There have been a couple of books written on prostitution in Pakistan. Many prostitutes get married, and still their difficult lives continue. It is not a question of just offering them marriage. Jabir, implicit in your comment is the belief that any kind of marriage to any kind of a man is an honor to be gratefully embraced. That’s not a very sympathetic outlook.

    If the Maulana’s heart was in the right place, he would be offering them a way out of selling their bodies without the requirement of marriage to himself or one of his followers. Marriage is not a “protection” from anything as many women can attest. Perhaps a “better life” for these women would be a safe and adequately paid employment or some way of earning a living, rather than marriage to a fundamentalist radical who has women-hating issues. Just a thought?

    Now as for my own observations–I think these people in the Lal Masajid are much too focused on women. The whole long and proud tradition of Islamic scholarship is open before them and day in and day out they talk only about women’s “immorality”. Doesn’t this seem a little odd? And if they get their own little Sharia court set up do you think they will be investigating what, fraud or corruption or dacoity with it? No indeed, it will be zina this and zina that and they will be dragging some poor woman in there and stoning her to death if they can get away with it, just like their brothers in Afghanistan. Why do you think they are so concerned with this particular category of crime when there are so many non-sexual crimes that do as much harm to the society?

    In my humble view they are like Christian missionaries of days past, they are very repressed and they project their lustful impulses on to others because their attitude is unhealthy. Now the maulana wants to collect all the promiscuous women from all around, get them in the masajid and pick one out for himself and distribute the others among his cohorts.

    Really……that’s not even subtle.

    Like I said this invites a lot more angry thoughts but I want to be respectful to everyone on the thread.

    I will believe the Lal Masajid people have the good of society in mind when they start talking about something besides music and movies and immorality among women, you know, something like corruption, nepotism, waste, graft, organized crime (which makes use of the very prostitutes the maulana is always condemning) and so on and so forth. But this is not where their minds are, it seems.

    Peace to all in the difficult days ahead. Think with your hearts and not your ideologies, religious or political. I really think what will be decided the next few months/years in Pakistan has strong implications not only for her but for the whole world. I pray that all goes well with her.

  49. jk says:
    April 7th, 2007 9:18 pm

    Bulbul khan > Give me the link for that. It seems as if you have copied that from Wikipedia after someone added the {{PORTION EDITED}} part TODAY.

    If that is not true then that is slander and defamation.

  50. Jabir Khan says:
    April 7th, 2007 9:36 pm

    tina

    I will repeat something here I posted somewhere else to help clarify how I think about the situation.

    “Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of.â€

  51. Jabir Khan says:
    April 7th, 2007 10:34 pm

    Something I read on Jang site, makes you ponder:

    خلیل جبران Ú©Û

  52. Social Mistri says:
    April 7th, 2007 11:03 pm

    Tina, These mullah sickos have their minds in the gutter all the bloody time. They would rather discuss what is permitted before, during and after sex or what is permissible when you ‘approach’ a woman, etc. than focus on the real big glaring social issues.

    I don’t think our society can continue to be so repressive regarding people’s normal, natural feelings. I am not arguing for Pakistan to become France in terms of morals and values, however, there is a happy middle ground in my mind.

    The Mullahs should answer us this, what would they rather have, premarital romance in their society or bisexuality and homosexuality? the latter, by definition are extramarital, not to mention abhorrent. Man does sin – there is no getting aroudn that. You can’t have a perfect society. So repressing outlets that lead to lesser sins, and instead creating a flood of greater sins, is not logical, nor smart.

    Many mullahs themselves take advantage of the young boys who are unlucky enough to end up in seminaries. This has been recorded in many a newspaper story, and is simply reprehensible. Yet, it happens. It also happens in the catholic church. Suggsting that anytime you deny your humanity and the feelings one has as a human being, you are setting yourself up for failure… that’s what the catholic priests do when they adopt a life of celibacy and that’s also what mullahs do when they tell us that we aren’t to see a woman’s face until we marry and after that only our wife’s face is halaal to us!! bulls&*!

    God didn’t make millions of beautiful women (and men, from the woman’s point of view) so that they could be hidden behind a niqaab. When you see a beautiful woman, how about saying a silent SubhanAllah, for a change? Isn’t that preferable to saying astaghfirullah, menoo danda pharaa!!

    If God meant beauty to be hidden behind a burkha, he would have made the rose a nut… hidden beneath an ugly shell.

    Disgusting minds these people have. How do we get rid of them?

  53. Bari says:
    April 7th, 2007 11:52 pm

    The Mullahs should answer us this, what would they rather have, premarital romance in their society or bisexuality and homosexuality?

    Great jumbling of words. Kindly calrify what should be read here? premarital romance or permarital sex?

    Are we less than honest here as usual?

    Naughty Naughty TSK TSK TSK

  54. Social Mistri says:
    April 8th, 2007 12:07 am

    Bari sahib, aap ko premarital sex zyada pasand hay to you can choose that. I wrote romance.

  55. tina says:
    April 8th, 2007 12:15 am

    Jabir, I am not in support of pornography or blue films in any way but I must point out that pornography does not lead to robberies or rape. This is not supported by our knowledge these days of this crime; our understanding has changed a lot in recent years.

    Rape is an aggression against the woman done to declare power over her and not a legitimate sexual expression. Many people think that sexual frustration ends in rape but that is not the case as this crime has its roots in something else (hatred of women).

    This heinous crime exists whether or not people see blue films, sorry to say. The two things are not connected.

    Sorry to go a little off topic but I just wanted to point this out. I agree with you that people use the good in our hearts to exploit us in ways that they wish. However is this not happening with the kids in the seminaries as well?My experience with aggressively religious people, both Christian and Muslim, is that they are #1 experts in this skill. As for “the system” that you refer to I am not clear as to who all is implicated by that.

    These days I more apt to trust a person who is quiet and sincere about their religion and who speaks softly about it, not a person who comes after me screaming and waving a danda, what do you think? Which one is really on their deen?

  56. Bari says:
    April 8th, 2007 12:19 am

    Mistri sahib, iss liya kay aap nai romance aur sex ko aik hi line main likhaa hai. Alternative to bi and homosexuality is romance?
    By the way West is suffering and without any moral compass now as a result of edging step by step towards a sex free society.

    If we accept a lesser evil today, it will automatically lead to another bigger one.

  57. FARAZ says:
    April 8th, 2007 12:27 am

    Mistri: yes you wrote romance, but that’s only a skip, hop and jump away from sex. Who are you kidding?

    You also suggested doing away with the burqa. That’s directly against the basic teachings of Islam (although women who do proper parda is already a minority). How can you possibly defend this?

    BTW, I am not necessarily against or for your ideas. What a confused/divided society we live in.

  58. tina says:
    April 8th, 2007 12:27 am

    Also, it is probably more useful to look to poverty as the source of crime. When a Pakistani, posh dweller or not, says oh, what is wrong with this society there can be a lot of answers to that……

  59. tina says:
    April 8th, 2007 12:40 am

    Salaam to all,

    Bari, who is to say the West is suffering? Who are you to tell them they have no moral compass?

    I live in the West and this criticism is very strange to the people here. They value individual freedom because it recognizes the differences between people. I don’t think this is bad at all.

    They might not value the same things you do but please do not judge them as without morals….after all don’t we moan and groan about how they judge Muslims without basis? And as for “suffering” their standard of living is good and they face their problems instead of hiding them.

    And your last sentence is a slippery slope logic, and it is a fallacy. A small start does not necessarily lead to bigger things.

    Faraz, I know a lot of Muslim ladies who will argue that a burqa or full purdah is not required by Islam. Hijab may be but burqa, no. And is purdah not a cultural idea rather than a religious one? I am also against the burqa.

  60. Jabir Khan says:
    April 8th, 2007 12:45 am

    I think there is a direct corelation between pornography and rapes. Before the advent of pornogrpahic material in our society (especailly videos) there were very rare occasions of this crime. Both increased at the same rate. Its like saying people are addicted to heroine because of some other phenomene and has nothing to do with free availability of heroine itself.

    In may opinion feminism is the worst form of hatred towards women themselves. This is how fearmongering works. Make the poor souls think of something that does not exist in the first place. A fear induced mind is incapable of thinking rationally and can be driven in any direction chosen by who holds his/hers cords.

    Thinking out of the box is the real solution.

  61. Harris says:
    April 8th, 2007 12:46 am

    Blaming blue films for rape is like blaming a spoon for your extra weight. Rape has been used for ages to degrade and humiliate women by conquerers, tyrants and other ills of the society way before blue films came on the scene.

    Mukhtaran Mai was not subjected to rape because her rapists were addicted to X-rated films but because of the ignorant and chauvinistic society that treated women as an object that could be traded as a payment of “dishonor” , murder and financial disputes.

    Curse the west all you want but do remember that the luxuries of the modern world that we take for granted would not exist if it weren’t for the ingenuity, freedom and open society of the west.

  62. Harris says:
    April 8th, 2007 12:52 am

    Jabir,

    Your argument that there has been a rise in rape because of the blue films is not accurate. The more important reason for that is the fact that more rapes are now reported. For ages families have hidden the rapes of their daughters because in our society it is considered “dishonor”.

    Mukhtaran mai is someone I have immense respect for. That lady refused to give into the age old tradition of hiding in a dark corner and screamed for justice.

    By the way, I am quite sure that less than 1% rapes are reported even today in Pakistan.

  63. Harris says:
    April 8th, 2007 12:57 am

    I would also like to add that the basic flaw in the Hudood Ordinance made it more difficult for the women to report rape. Many women have gone to jail for Zina when they reported rapes.

    Another medal of honor for our enlightened society.

  64. tina says:
    April 8th, 2007 1:06 am

    Thanks, Harris

    Jabir is wrong on this point and I know it. Rape is reported (some) now whereas it was not in the past. That’s the reason for the “increase”.

    Jabir, I believe that thinking out of the box is a wonderful idea–but I don’t see that you are doing that. “Feminism is hatred of women”–sorry that’s the oldest one in the book; it’s got a white beard a mile long. You might argue that feminists are misguided in many cases or even in their basic ideology, but you can’t truthfully say they hate women. Do you think women should vote? Feminists fought for that. Do you think that they should participate in politics? Feminists fought for that also. Do you believe that swara, vani, and karo-kiri ought to be stopped? Feminists are fighting for that. Funny list of activities for people who “hate women”!

    And in what way are feminists “fearmongerers”? I am not getting the logic there.

    Possibly I am missing something. I am looking forward to that out of the box thinking.

  65. bari says:
    April 8th, 2007 1:16 am

    And as for “sufferingâ€

  66. Social Mistri says:
    April 8th, 2007 1:24 am

    pornography does NOT lead to rape. rape existed before there was pornography. there is no scientific study to this day that correlates the two. i am more apt to believe that rape is a criminal act that stems from animalistic aggression mixed with a refusal to accept women as “complete” human beings.

    and as to faraz’ comment about how i can defend islam not requiring the burqa. it is simple. because islam does not require the burqa. besides, whether someone wears the burqa, whether someone prays 5 times a day or fasts etc. are all personal issues. the Quran says, “La ikraha fiddin”. There is no compulsion in the matter of religion. it is forbidden for someone to come and rip the burqa off someone’s face because that is a form of compulsion. similarly, it is forbidden to FORCE someone to wear the hijab in the name of religion.

    haqooqullah take a BACK SEAT to haqooqul ibaad in the Quran. the mullah community reverses the order of these and then also violates the La ikraha fiddin instruction. they are the truly damnable violators of the quran, not the girls who don’t wear a burqa. the quran says, he who creates “firqawariat” has done “shaitaniat”. name one mullah who is neither sunni, nor shia, nor ahmadi, nor deobandi… according to the Quran all of today’s mullah are shaitan ki aulaad.

    thank GOD we live in a divided society. otherwise we would all be the same and what fun would that be? i don’t mind other people holding different views. if someone forces their views on me, though, i will tell them where to stuff it.

    stop forcing people to do things. it is their personal issue. mullahs essentially advocate a level of voyeurism and invasion of people’s personal privacy which is deeply disturbing and sick.

    if someone wants to see a mujra in the confines of their home, its between him and his Allah. i don’t wan to come over to your place, its your house, go ahead. if you want to pray all night in your house, that’s fine too. however, don’t criminalize NOT listening to mujras in a person’s own house, and don’t criminalize NOT praying all night. the mullahs need to mind their own business… starting with personal hygiene.

  67. Jabir Khan says:
    April 8th, 2007 1:27 am

    Harris, the rise in crimes like rapes and robberies is a direct result of films, both violent and x-rated.

    Kindly carry on worshiping the west as you like. Even they don’t defend their ills like some of their propents are doing here on their behalf.

    Bari pointed to good figures as well all coming out of good ol’ USA. Thank you.

  68. Social Mistri says:
    April 8th, 2007 1:30 am

    bari, as they say, “apnay giraybaan mein jhaanko”. there is chua saidan shah in pakistan, where hundreds of infants are abducted and taken to every year. there, they are kept in captivity and have their skulls distorted by metal braces and their brains permanently damaged. no one does anything about it. they go around with a “patta” in their neck living a life of forced beggary. we see them in the punjab all the time, and yet no one does anything.

    gangrapes, rapes for tribal vengeance, rapes sanctioned by jirgas and “elders”, abductions sanctioned by the same… all this happens all the time in pakistan. let’s not go off on a tangent and bring the US into this. they’ve got their own issues and their society in my view is sick beyond comprehension… but since you and i care about pakistan, let’s stick to understanding and improving ourselves. thankfuly amrika hamara masla nahien hay.

  69. Social Mistri says:
    April 8th, 2007 1:32 am

    jabir, if the rise in crime is a result of films then osama bin laden and his mullah brigades must be watching movies 24×7. no one is as violent as them.

  70. Jabir Khan says:
    April 8th, 2007 1:34 am

    if someone wants to see a mujra in the confines of their home, its between him and his Allah

    NO Allah has already told in his book to refrain from these ills (fahash kaam). Mujra is a form of female exploitation, you may call it ‘art’, if you want to.

    Now should I listen to you or Allah?

  71. Social Mistri says:
    April 8th, 2007 1:37 am

    jabir, so what are you going to do? install cameras in everyone’s house and then when you see them listening to a mujra you will barge into their bedroom with jamia hafsa issued dandas and stop them?

    i am not saying you should listen to mujras. but i AM saying that you can’t FORCE people to do as you want them to within the confines of their own homes.

  72. Akbar A.H. says:
    April 8th, 2007 10:47 am

    The political problem here is that the Lal Masjid holds all the cards and there is very little that the government CAN do. On one hand government has no credibility and on other the Masjid people are using real social issues to attract support. If you are asked would you rather be for a military government or for removing prostitution? Which will you choose. Since the tactics of both is now same in violence, the game set and match all now go to the Maulanas.

  73. Lahori says:
    April 8th, 2007 10:40 am

    ATP, can you please find a way of not letting a few people mess up the entire thread with their childish bickering! This is really getting very annoying.

  74. tina says:
    April 8th, 2007 1:40 am

    We could say that Lal Masajid crisis is beginning to look a little bit like a potential Waco. Let’s hope it doesn’t.

  75. Jabir Khan says:
    April 8th, 2007 1:49 am

    You have a good point about confines of home. It does provide protection from state. But to what extent?

    Does it means if someone murders somebody within the chonfines of his home, that makes him innocent?

    And if he starts selling heroine within the confines of his home, he is not a drug dealer?

    I dont know, maybe mujra is still out of this, no?

    Why dont you arrange a meeting between state authorities and maulvis and tell them to draw a line?

    I will make some tea to stop my head from spinning.

  76. Harris says:
    April 8th, 2007 1:54 am

    I would like to argue about the misconception most of you have about the west but it will be off topic so I’ll refrain from it.

    On the issue of Jamia Hafsa, all I have to say is that this evil is just the trailer of what’s coming to Pakistan in the near future if something is not done quickly. Just imagine living in a country run by ignorant Mullahs where your mother, daughter and sisters may be subject to public humiliation for not wearing a naqaab or for any felony considered by them as anti-Islamic. You think about it and then try to support this Islamization.

  77. tina says:
    April 8th, 2007 2:00 am

    Harris, I think you must refrain from commenting about the West, my comment was just zapped. Possibly for being off topic–the moderator may be trying to keep the thread on target.

    strange the very negative comments about the West all seem to be getting through……

  78. FARAZ says:
    April 8th, 2007 2:12 am

    Mistri, while I like the idea of not forcing “people to do as you want them to within the confines of their own homes”, things don’t quite work that way as Jabir pointed out.Harris, thanks for bringing us back to the original issue.

  79. Bulbul khan says:
    April 8th, 2007 2:13 am

    Wikipedia thats where i got the information my apology for not mentioning.

  80. blue and grey says:
    April 8th, 2007 2:22 am

    Tina, Harris, I too think that we must refrain from talking about the west and not just because o f the ATP administrators. I think that it weakens our case. Some people have such an aversion for the west that they end up seeing nothing in your argument but the perception that you have been “brain washed” by the west. Moreover they are not completely wrong about many ills remaining in the west. The thing is would you not be fighting for the same thing had the west not made all this progress? Of course these things need to be fought for because they are about freedom and human dignity and this is independent of the west or east. This is universal. My guess is that when we bring in the west while talking about human rights, the following happens:

    -people think it’s about liberalism (read fahashi)

    -Their pre-conceived ideas about people who talk about human rights being on “payrolls” from the west are strengthened.

    -Your own argument, is unfortunately weakened due the above point.

    -It somehow links human rights to the west. This is something I am very uncomfortable with. At different points in the history of the world, different societies have been the most advanced. So human rights are a universal concept.

    I agree with the rest of what you have said, specially the points about rape. Well if you ask most psychologists, they’ll tell youu that rape is a crime of power, where sex is used as a tool to show the woman (or her family/tribe etc) that she is power less.

  81. Harris says:
    April 8th, 2007 2:40 am

    Tina,
    Thank you for the heads up. I felt that it was coming so I controlled myself.

    Blue and Grey,
    You brought up some very good points and I do see how our argument may be watered down because of the comments about the West. Thanks for that.

    It is ironic that the idea of human rights is looked upon as a western idea when it was Cyrus the Great, an easterner who laid down the first written bill of human rights more than 2000 years ago.

    Maybe the world is better off because of his ideas but such a shame for the region that has the claim to fame for being the cradle of human rights when the basic human right to freedom is violated in that region in every shape or form.

  82. Adnan Siddiqi says:
    April 8th, 2007 3:37 am

    Secular fascism continues.

    Since Secularism talks about removing relgion’s influence on stats matters, the secular Imam mufti musharraf once again demonstrated his secular Islamic knowledge by ordering closing a religious place and forced people NOT to offer Zohar prayers.

    Now bodhi tree supports will hibernate somewhere and will forget every lesson of secularism since this thing happened with people who follow a “religion”.

  83. Ismail Hussein says:
    April 8th, 2007 10:55 am

    Actually, I think if the government was to take real action against these madrassas and root out the violence a lot of people (like me) who have stopped supporting Musharraf might start doing so again

  84. Ian G. says:
    April 8th, 2007 11:31 am

    A Pakistani friend suggested that I visit this website to get a feel for ‘real’ Pakistani conversations. I must say I am very impressed by the website and the wide range of things here. Much more vibrant and diverse conversations than I woudl have imagined.

  85. Akbar says:
    April 9th, 2007 12:32 am

    Bravo. Well said. It is this Pakistan that we have to preserve and not let them turn this into a Pakistan of the Taliban.

  86. Jabir Khan says:
    April 8th, 2007 3:52 am

    Adnan, I am appaled at this act of state facism.

    So this country came into being in the name of Islam and muslims are stoppoed from offering prayers?

    Another ‘medal’ for our liberal friends.

    Congratulations.

  87. Imran says:
    April 8th, 2007 4:15 am

    On the contrary, the bodhi tree supporters completely and wholeheartedly support ATP’s resident Islamists’ call for a suicide attack on the President and the rest of the ‘liberal’ lot infesting our ‘pure’ land.

  88. Faraz says:
    April 8th, 2007 4:16 am

    That’s not an act of liberalism or securalism, that’s just stupidity. I am sure none of the alleged liberals here will support this action (unless there’s a twist to the story).

  89. Sohail says:
    April 8th, 2007 4:26 pm

    As others have pointed out, nearly all religious parties and leaders have condemned the behavior of these Lal Masjid people. So people are making generalizations about all religious people and ‘mullahs’ being alike are missing the point and making things worse. Let us not make the mistake of confusing this action by a few extremists to be the views of most religious people.

  90. PAKISTANI says:
    April 8th, 2007 2:41 pm

    Whether it was done to distract from CJ or not, I agree with the post that now the genie is out of the bottle and it will not be as easy to put it back in. This is NOT going to be easy to roll back and vigilantism of this sort is very very dangerous for whatever reason it is done.

  91. Long Time ATP Reader says:
    April 9th, 2007 12:05 am

    All this last week I was getting annoyed at ATP. You had single posts on the Jamia Hafsa highjacking and now on Lal Masjid hooligans, but mostly it was Munir Niazi poetry, and musoleums in Multan, and Karachi literati, and films and music. I wondered if you were trying to run away from the real issues.

    Now I think I understand the message. This is the Pakistan and Pakistaniat of poetry, of art, of music, and of sufi saints that we have to save and keep these Lal Masjid fanatics away from destroying this legacy of Pakistan.

  92. Akbar says:
    April 8th, 2007 2:48 pm

    I agree with previous comment.

    I do not think that the government could have arranged this. It might help them briefly but it also makes them look totally out of control and that does not look good for them. Plus they must understadn what type of long term dangers playing with fire can mean.

    The fact that even the religious parties and leaders are opposing this shows just how dangerous this is and how everyone realizes where this type of behavior will lead.

  93. Harris says:
    April 8th, 2007 4:33 am

    Before you start pointing your guns at the moderates let me echo the comment made by Faraz. It was a stupid act pure and simple (unless there is more to the story). If it was done just so Mushy’s speech is not interrupted then it should be condemned.

    Common sense is not something the Mushy brigade is known for.

  94. Akbar says:
    April 8th, 2007 2:51 pm

    I really do not have too much hope that this will happen, but I wish that the religious and non-religious parties will get together on this issue and not only condemn it but act to root out this type of extreme behavior.

    I think religion has a place in the political debate but this type of violence must not.

    Unfortunately, I do not think our politicians (religious as well as secular) have the wisdom to see this. But at least I can hope.

  95. Sirat-e-Mustaqeem says:
    April 10th, 2007 2:03 am

    there we go again….

    Now we have to get a certificate of authenticity from Adnan Siddiqui or the Lal Masjid bhais about whether we are ‘real’ Muslims or not.  Harken all! Adnan Siddiqui has proclaimed himself the new true messenger of God and the only one capable of deciding who is and who is not a Muslim. Wah bahi wah!

  96. Ismail Hussein says:
    April 11th, 2007 11:01 pm

    Another very good editorial in The News:

    Caving into the extremists?

    PML-Q President Chaudhry Shujaat Hussain’s second meeting in the space of less than a week with the administration of Lal Masjid seems to suggest that we may be seeing yet another instance of the federal government caving into extremists. Of course, no one is advocating a commando operation necessarily to end the occupation of the children’s library or to apprehend all those who were behind the abduction of three women and two policemen a couple of weeks ago. However, there are several reasons which make one believe that the Lal Masjid fanatics are about to get their way — which will be a terrible shame because it will send the signal to other like-minded obscurantists and vigilantes across the country that taking the law into one’s hands certainly pays off in Pakistan. From the various reports that have detailed these meetings, it can be safely believed that the illegality of the actions of the Jamia Hafsa students is not the issue, although the PML-Q chief is said to have asked the Lal Masjid administration to get the children’s library vacated. Second, the extremists have been asked, according to one report, to select seven locations in the federal capital where the government will build mosques in exchange for those that the CDA demolished — because they were built on illegally encroached land.

    The point that one is trying to make — and one that would be very clear — is that the government should have been negotiating from a position of strength. If, as reports suggest, several ministers and intelligence agencies have ruled out an operation against the fanatics or kept it as a measure of last resort, this should not have meant that the government speak from a position of weakness and accede to all the demands of the clerics. For starters, building a house of worship on an encroached or illegal land is violative of both temporal as well as religious law, so the government should not have felt compelled to fulfil this particular demand of the Lal Masjid and Jamia Hafsa fanatics. Secondly, those students who reportedly told the PML-Q that they respected the law and would never do anything against it are being mendacious because their illegal actions were watched and documented in detail for the rest of the country.

    As for those advocating a soft approach to resolving this crisis, the argument being given is that launching an operation could lead to casualties and create a law and order problem in the federal capital. One would like to ask these illustrious government functionaries what the police and the Islamabad administration were doing when the Jamia Hafsa and Lal Masjid students went on their ‘raids’ in one of Islamabad’s main markets and when these fanatics abducted three women (and a baby) and two policemen? Had not a law and order situation developed then, with the capital of the country in the grip of lathi-wielding extremists, who held the women and the baby for over two days, not releasing them before one of them was forced to ‘confess’ on national television the sins which she may or may not be guilty of.

    Also, one would like to ask the PML-Q chief whether he has raised the issue with the Lal Masjid clerics on the setting up of a parallel court, which may amount to high treason if clause I of Article 6 is read carefully (“Any person who abrogates or attempts or conspires to abrogate, subverts or attempts or conspires to subvert the Constitution by use of force or show of force or by other unconstitutional means shall be guilty of high treason”). It is quite incredible that the government has taken the view that those responsible for keeping Islamabad hostage for so many weeks should not be proceeded against under the law for their wholly illegal and vigilante actions and is instead planning to meet all their demands. It also seems inconceivable that an entity no less than the government of Pakistan is unable to establish its writ and negotiate from a position of strength against a bunch of self-styled guardians of morality and vigilantes. One can only hope that better sense prevails and this caving in does not materialise. If it does — and the indications all seem to be that it will — it will be quite a contradiction and difficult for the government to defend given its repeated calls to Pakistanis in general to fight and resist extremism. It’s time the government practiced what it preaches.

  97. Zahra M. says:
    April 10th, 2007 2:17 am

    The government is now talking of ‘out of court settlement’ with the Lal masjid people.

    What does that mean?

    How can you ‘settle’ with this type of violence!

  98. Moeen Bhatti says:
    April 8th, 2007 4:57 am

    Most of us agree that these acts don’t have to do anything with Islam or the teachings of Prophet(MPBUH); these are criminal acts that should not be allowed to carry out in the name of religion. I have few more comments:
    1) This burqa thing is unislamic too. Infact, in burqa, you don’t know if its a guy or a gal; or there is a gun inside.I would not even talk to a person whose face is invisible to me.
    2) Do we have any stats. about homosexsuality in these madrassas?
    3)This ‘maulana’ wants to ‘rescue’ prostitutes, why didn’t he think about gays & lesbians? What are his ‘plans’ about them?

  99. Akbar A.H. says:
    April 10th, 2007 2:12 am

    Amongst the silver linings is the fact that the press in general, English as well as Urdu, has been quite strong in condemning this stuff.

    What is really missing ius civil society action. No, not violence in response to violence. But boycott.

    You want this type of religious fanatics out of Islamabad, just stop going to their masjids. There are plenty of other mosques. Boycott them and their business will be thapp.

  100. Junaid says:
    April 10th, 2007 2:29 am

    Guyz, calm down.

    I think the Lal Masjid Taliban are themselves on the self-destruct mode. They have bitten off more than they can chew and will soon disappear because now no one is supporting them.

    I only hope that the government does NOT take violent action against them, because that will only turn them into heroes and martyrs. That is exactly what they want!

  101. April 8th, 2007 5:28 am

    what a joke.
    just saw a a tourism ad on cnn in europe by mobilink, with the song ‘Hum bolain mohabbat ki zubaan’

  102. ahsan says:
    April 8th, 2007 6:12 am

    “I don’t know if you are playing a devil’s advocate or what, but all this business of “Objectives Resolutionâ€

  103. Disciple says:
    April 8th, 2007 6:34 am

    Jaber, I was not aware that you have to have mosque to pray in. I had the impression that according to hadith the whole earth was made place to pray and worship. But no, our political Maulanas have to make an issue out of everything. Religion is not the issue here but power through religion. This is what Jamia Husfa is all about too.

  104. Aqil Sajjad says:
    April 8th, 2007 7:40 am

    There goes this thread again, pretty much no point in following the discussion further because it has again degenerated like that other post on lathi raj. Congratulations to the above posters, you did it again.

  105. Mushtaq says:
    April 8th, 2007 9:02 am

    Isn’t it deobundi brand of Islam that is behind both lal masjid and taliban? I wonder how others (majority brelvis for instance) would feel when they get to the nitty gritty of implementing their version of shariat. What if all Islamic schools decided to implement their own brand of shariat and by force? Would we not have an Armageddon with all Mullahs fighting with each other? Considering this, does implementing a single shariat at national level not appear an absurdity?

  106. Omar R. Quraishi says:
    April 8th, 2007 1:10 pm

    Editorial, The News, April 8

    Talibanisation revisited

    Who would have ever thought that Islamabad would one day become the hub of Talibanisation, but that reality is now before all of us. Blame for the extraordinarily brazen acts of defiance and illegality that have occurred in the federal capital in recent days with regard to the shenanigan of the Jamia Hafsa ‘students’ and those running Lal Masjid must lie squarely on the shoulders of the government. On Thursday in another wanton act that violated the constitution and just about every law perceivable, the administrators of Lal Masjid announced the establishment of qazi courts to dispense what they said would be ‘Islamic justice’. In a speech on Friday, before a ‘conference’ organised to ‘enforce Shariat’, the Lal Masjid khateeb gave the government a one-month deadline to close all brothels and prostitution dens in the country failing which his madressah boys would do this on their own. He also said that video and music shops should be closed in the federal capital and claimed that he would offer financial compensation to traders who willingly did this. To top all of this, he also threatened that any move by the government to crack down on him and his madressah would be resisted by the use of suicide bombers. This is nothing but blackmail and the longer the government allows this to happen, the more will this situation get out of control.

    Let’s first examine the issue of setting up a court. Speaking to the press, the Lal Masjid khateeb has claimed that he was doing nothing new and that in the past ulema had carried out similar actions since they were responsible for eliminating vice from society. Here, the maulana is engaging in clear doublespeak because what ulema have historically done is to issue fatwas or edicts on various issues and even these have not necessarily been binding but more in the form of proclamations. But the setting up of a court goes well beyond this. It violates the constitution because the latter already has provisions for an elaborate judicial system, right from the level of the Supreme Court down to district level courts, to adjudicate on all matters involving crimes, violations of the constitution and civil, business and other disputes. The constitution does not allow individuals or groups to set up their own courts to dispense their form of justice for the simple reason that it does not tolerate any parallel judicial system — doing so would undermine the judicature as sanctioned by the constitution itself. If there is a problem with the judicial system, which may be the case in Pakistan (as well as many other countries), the solution does not lie in setting up a court with judges of one’s liking and adhering to a canon of one’s own formulation and particular belief system but rather in improving the existing system as mandated by the constitution.

    Besides, no country in the world — and for absolutely the right reasons — lets its citizens take the law into their own hands and become accusers, judgers and dispensers of justice. That used to happen in primitive societies or in America’s Wild West, where it was every man for himself and with no perceivable writ of the government present. When people agree to live in a society or a nation, then they agree to give up certain freedoms in exchange for guarantees by the state that it will provide a legal system under which the rights of all citizens, especially in terms of safety of life and personal property and basic freedoms such as the right to earn a livelihood and freedom of expression will be guaranteed and respected. Of course, to varying degrees some of these rights are sometimes restricted by the state itself but again the solution does not lie in an overthrow of the state but rather in its reform — and this reform can only come from within because any other approach would lead to anarchy. That is precisely why citizens of any civil society are legally forbidden to take the law into their own hands or set up their own courts, militias and so on. That is the job of the government.

    As for civil society, at least some of its representatives (including some members of parliament) have had the moral courage to come out and protest against this wanton Talibanisation taking place in the heart of the federal capital. Whether this will actually achieve anything remains to be seen because it is these very liberal and progressive elements who have often borne the brunt of the police’s ‘lathi-happy’ tendencies. As usual – and quite regrettably so — the government has been on the backfoot, saying much but doing nothing. In fact, to the chorus of ministerial voices expressing disapproval of the Jamia Hafsa and Lal Masjid actions (but not much else beyond that) were added on Friday the remarks of the president who publicly said that the activities of these seminaries would lead to lawlessness and that his government would not let that happen. The truth, Mr President, is that this has already happened, in fact it has been happening for weeks and for some inexplicable reason the government seems to have let it happen.

    Had the government acted promptly and with conviction to apprehend all those who had illegally violated the law by illegally occupying the children’s library, and had the CDA and the various other government agencies concerned acted to prevent the madressah from being built on the ministry of education’s land in the first place, things would not have come to this. The president also said that the people of Pakistan would respond to these extremist vigilante actions. That they will, but the people of Pakistan expect the government to take some action in this regard. And if that is not forthcoming, the people will begin to wonder how these obscurantists can get away with all this for so long unless some elements in the government itself are backing them or tacitly approve of what they are doing- presumably for some misconceived long-term gain for the current military-led dispensation. The only way forward to stop this Talibanisation is for the government to exercise its writ; something it has never been afraid of doing in Balochistan and Sindh or in the case of liberals, lawyers and political activists protesting on the streets.

    http://www.thenews.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=50151

  107. April 8th, 2007 1:14 pm

    a very interesting read HERE
    Although many people have got a good view on the topic, and i feel there is lesses polarization of thoughts on this thread compared to previous ones,

    the link above emphasizes a very strong point, not all religious people can be classified as one generic class called ‘mullahs’ or ‘maulanas’.

    anyways, seems that their current stance is one of MMA’s rare goodies.

  108. April 8th, 2007 1:21 pm

    duh, i dont know how to add anchor links to text, so i have just pasted the link abv.
    its long and wordpress splits it to two lines.
    so just click the clickable part and append the remaining part (on the next) link to it, hope ull get the page working.

    can anyone tell how to add anchor links in text for comments?

  109. April 8th, 2007 2:14 pm

    Atif, instructions on tagging a link available HERE.

  110. BitterTruth says:
    April 8th, 2007 2:33 pm

    All of critics are pointing their finger to mullahs, some even isolated deobandi factor.
    The act should definitely be condemned, and thats what exactly done by religious leaders. Banori town( deobandi) and mufti Muneeb (barelvi) has already renounced the act, as well as Fazlur Rehman has criticized it.
    BBC, and different columnist in newspapers have already suspicious about it as a drama to deviate attention from CJ case.

  111. Niqab ka dushman says:
    April 8th, 2007 4:18 pm

    Man I cannot understand why Musharaf is so scared to move against the gagsters mullahs in lal masjid? What is he so afraid of? The entire Pakistani nation dont want Taliban in Pakistan.
    You people in Islamabad better wake up and do something on your own because Musharaf is scared. Because if you dont do something now, it will be too late and the Niqabi bearded alliance will have become so bold they will enter our houses and destroy our TV’s, VCRs, stop music and all the BS we saw in Afghanistan under the Taliban.

    The Koran clearly states “There is no compulsion in religion” What part of the Koran do they not understand or agree with?

  112. Zahra M. says:
    April 8th, 2007 5:36 pm

    I think like the point made by Akbar, if anything at all good can come out of this it will have to be the coming together of the less-than-fanatic religious forces and the less-than-extreme-secular forces to retaliate against these extreme views. If this ‘middle’ can come together somehow than there is hope. Otherwise there is none.

  113. Adnan Siddiqi says:
    April 9th, 2007 1:22 am


    I had the impression that according to hadith the whole earth was made place to pray and worship

    Ehsaan hey bhai tumhara k tumne earth ko kam az kam Allah k property samjha na k kisi liberal ki. Samjh bhe letey tu hum kia karsaktay thay :-)


    I am sure none of the alleged liberals here will support this action

    alleged? funny! i have been dealing with them for more than half year.

    as I expected, this “adha teetar adha batair” cabal would not speak against the locking of a masjid and would hibernate somewhere. Their all secularism applies to provoke & support anti-Islam anti-Islam forces.

    I am labeled by many of them as a ‘mullah’ coz I don’t speak their language. They also complain that mullahs don’t react against the evil within them. I didn’t waste a moment to condemn the threat of suicide attack by hafsa mgmt because tht is not Islam while on other hand these liberals who always cry over minorities religious places didn’t condemn at all against the closing of mosque for the secular dictator. Now who’s extremist here? they or “mullah”?

    then they feel pain when I equate secularism with athism, they never even made any attempt to prove me wrong. Well Thankyou! *grin* I wish they could prove me wrong once by condemning the extremism of their own people as well.

    At one side atp mgmt and their authors have microscopic eyes that they could even see thru a tree and can declare it sacred to buddhist while on other hand they are unable to find the extremism of seculars who are locking masjids for sake of a dictator. Aankh Ojhal Pahar Ojhal, right? . Then they say they are promoting “Pakistaniat” *sarcasm*

    At one side Ms.Sharmeen Obaid Chinoy can travel all the way from Canada to Saudia to raise her “voice” against the “violence” on Saudi women but she can’t come to Pakistan and put her efforts to find out why her people who claim to be seculars are not giving freedom to people to offer prayers freely? Because Sharmeen’s survival depends on her loyalty to West, after all she has to feed her family as well.

    Our fellow liberals also complain that they are underestimated about Islamic knowledge and they claim they know they know ISlam more than any momin or a Mullah. Mush says he has no doubt that he’s not a scholar because he has gone inside kaaba 7 times. If going inside Kaaba is the standard of being a muslim then Abu Jahal would have gone inside Kaaba more than Musharraf then we should call him a pious momin?

    let’s believe our fellow liberals know the real islam and me and mullahs don’t know Islam at all. Why did it happen that a jahil mullah like me found a verse 2:1114 of Baqrah but these educated and learned souls fail to find out that How Allah condemned the people who stops people to go Masjid?


    And who is more unjust than he who prevents (men) from the masjids of Allah, that His name should be remembered in them, and strives to ruin them? (As for) these, it was not proper for them that they should have entered them except in fear; they shall meet with disgrace in this world, and they shall have great chastisement in the hereafter(quran 2.114)

    Is it not curseable and damnable that even with all claims they lack to understand the basics? they rather supporting it by associating their sick logic with a hadith. Offcourse all earth and universe belongs to Allah and Allah even ordered to migrate from place of violence just because land is God’s property but does that mean we demolish the Masjidul Haram as well because muslims can worship anywhere?Why this logic was not put forward by my friend in the thread Buddhi tree? Did he/she try to tell others that this land belongs to Allah so there should be no other place of worship on land?

    Pls stop fooling yourself by pretending to be pious and human lovers. You people just ridicule yourself and your own by coming up with baseless arguments and noone else get impressed at all. I really got surprised when a lady in Dr Shahid’s “Meray Mutabiq” called Musharraf an extremist as well and equated him with Hafsa mgmt. Pakistani people don’t believe in the “teachings” of both extreme cabals. They are silent it doesnt mean they are dumb.

  114. Faraz says:
    April 9th, 2007 1:56 am

    “I am labeled by many of them as a ‘mullah’ coz I don’t speak their language.”

    Adnan, no one has labelled you a Mullah in this post at least. It seems you are the one obsessed with labels like “liberal” and “mullah.” It also seems you enjoy creating this atmosphere of division.

    “As I expected, this “adha teetar adha batairâ€

  115. April 9th, 2007 7:15 am
  116. tina says:
    April 9th, 2007 10:24 am

    Excuse me, I wonder what remedy Adnan proposes when people occupy masajid and use it as a base for politically motivated violent behavior. Or when issues of where the masajid is placed are being used for political leverage and pot-stirring. Or like the imams in America who deliberately disrupted a plane flight, who then claimed that they just had to pray right in front of the gate at loading time and then initiated a series of lawsuits.

    What to do when salat and the place of salat itself are used as tools of disruption?

    I for one think it is very cynical of the mullahs and the fault lies with them. I was always taught that Muslims should offer salat when travelling in such a way as to cause as little inconvenience as possible, even silently to themselves if necessary and even if they cannot do wudu. But now Americans all think that plane flights full of non-Muslim passengers have to be held at a standstill for a Muslim passenger to offer prayers. Adnan, do you think it was maybe unwise for the American imams to inspire further bad stereotypes? Or do you think this was all good and well?

    All I see here is mullahs who have not got a true religious feeling in their hearts using masajid issue to spark confrontation. In the old days of Europe, any kind of a criminal could hide in the church and use it for sanctuary, and people’s feelings about the sanctity of the church were used to keep them beyond the reach of the law. We are seeing something of that sort here. Like I said, very cynical of the mullahs.

    Does anyone have a solution for this?

  117. mohammed says:
    April 9th, 2007 12:21 pm

    for once can we just not oblige these mullahs and their flocks by sending in the army
    shaujaat hussain wants to speak with them? what? they threaten pakistan and you want chai with them.

    whether its the mullah of those that always give these bearded goons time – we need to get pakistan in order, the hole world is moving forward and pakistan is held hostage.

  118. Akif Nizam says:
    April 9th, 2007 12:24 pm

    It disappoints me to see that a situation such as this, which even by the most extreme of standards, should be universally condemned, fails to be so condemned. I can’t fathom the mindset of people, who in their zeal for ideological loyalty, continue to shield, if not support, this despicable turn of events.

    This has nothing to do with the lack of justice or lawlessness in the society. I would guess if you ask the people of Islamabad about the major areas where law enforcement and provision of justice is an issue, they would not mention the preponderence of video stores, women drivers and suspected brothels as their top three…..or among top ten for that sake.

    This has everything to do with setting up an alternative set of mores and conventions for the Pakistani society; a set which is entirely imported and entirely foreign to our historic sensibilities. This is next step in the natural progression which has taken us from “Khuda Hafiz” during my childhood to “Allah Hafiz” during my adolescence to “Fee Sabilillah” more recently and apparantly to ” Allaho Akbar….BOOM!! ” now.

  119. Lahori says:
    April 9th, 2007 2:15 pm

    I guess the Lal Masjid types are well represented here on ATP also. This is where I first heard of the Nilofer Bakhtiar hug. Now, it seems the Lal Masjid has issued a fatwa against her. As someone said, hugging people is bad, hurting them with sticks is OK.

  120. Mushtaq says:
    April 9th, 2007 1:44 pm

    Jamia Hufsa is proving too extremist even for the doebundis;

    جامعÛ

  121. Akif Nizam says:
    April 9th, 2007 2:25 pm

    Lahori, not to mention the fatwa that the army personnel killed by the Taleban in the line of duty are not martyrs and do not even deserve a religious funeral. Somehow these people know what Allah has in plans for these soldiers.

  122. Lahori says:
    April 10th, 2007 12:20 am

    Thank you ATP Administrator for this reminder. I hope people will back off and I hope ATP will please not close the thread because of a few people trying to spoil things, because these issues (what is happening in Lal Masjid) NEED to be discussed.

    I am quite convinced now that some people PURPOSELY start these irrelevant discussions to distract away from the real issues and turn every thread into slogans.  If we fall for this trap then their purpose of people NOT thinking and talking about these issues is served.

  123. Bhingigosht says:
    April 9th, 2007 3:46 pm

    Latest news: The Deobandi Wafar-al- Madaris has expelled the Lal Masjid Madrassas from it’s fold.
    So even the Mullahs are distancing themselves from these people, which has got to be a good thing.

  124. Social Mistri says:
    April 9th, 2007 4:23 pm

    If you go back to the early parts of the 20th century, you’ll find that overall, across India, there was a very small (single digit) percentage of adherents to the Deobandi sect. That drastically changed during Zia’s time with the monetary support he gave them directly and indirectly. That is where all this violence originated from.

  125. April 9th, 2007 5:05 pm

    Tina just give a short answer, Do you support locking religious places? Yes or not If you support locking mosques then you have no right to raise voice when similar attitude is demonstrated by your oponents. They also could comeup with similar points against christians,hindus,qadyanis etc etc. Phew* you sound no different at all!

  126. tina says:
    April 9th, 2007 5:34 pm

    Salaam Adnan,

    I asked a number of questions which you should thoughtfully address before you start *demanding* litmus-test short answers of others.

  127. tina says:
    April 9th, 2007 5:37 pm

    Also, unless you moderate this board I think you should not be saying who does and does not have the right to speak here.

  128. Akif Nizam says:
    April 9th, 2007 5:56 pm

    At first I was absolutely furious over the government’s stance on this issue; not taking any action and seemingly letting the madrasa get away with the nonsense.

    But as new developments are coming to light, I’m beginning to doubt my previous stance. Now that it seems the madrasa is getting isolated by the rest of the religious establishment which is coming out vociferously in opposition to their actions. Isn’t this the best situation that could have come out of this mess? Instead of the headlines reading that the “pro American govt. of Pakistan cracks down on the hard-line madrasa”, we may very well have ” the moderate forces of Islam rein in hard-liners in Pakistan”. Wouldn’t that be something !! Wouldn’t that be a first !

  129. tina says:
    April 9th, 2007 6:01 pm

    That would be a wonderful development and a win-win scenario, certainly. Thanks, Akif

  130. Zahra M. says:
    April 9th, 2007 7:46 pm

    If we coudl build up on the condemnation from the religious establishment and get (a) similar condemnation from all political forces and (b) a boycott from the community that goes to this mosque… you know there are lots of mosques in Islamabad and if people just decide to stop going to this one then they would have voted with their feet.

    That would be a MUCH more superior way to resolve this than through force.

  131. Mushtaq says:
    April 9th, 2007 7:14 pm

    Since even deobandi board has declared that jamia hufsa and lal masjid are causing fitna, there is certainly a case now to close these down just like masjid zaraar was in the time of holy prophet.

  132. Mushtaq says:
    April 9th, 2007 8:34 pm

    Madrassa parents voice concerns

    Parents of some of the girls studying at a controversial religious school in Pakistan’s capital, Islamabad, have voiced concern for their safety.

    (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/6539605.stm)

  133. Ibrahim says:
    April 9th, 2007 8:39 pm

    Salamalikum,

    This is another sign of end of times, of qiyamat, that ‘alm (knowledge) would be raised. Further, as it’s in Sahih of Imam Muslim (also in Sahih al-Bukhari with slightly different wording): “Verily, Allah does not take away knowledge by snatching it from the people but He takes away knowledge by taking away the scholars, so that when He leaves no learned person, people turn to ignorant as their leaders; then they are asked to deliver religious verdicts and they deliver them without knowledge, they go astray, and lead others astray.”

    So, it’s in fact azaab of Allah taa’la that He has placed the voice of Islam in the hands of such people, no matter how good their intentions might be. At least, the ulema have come out against the actions of Abdul Aziz and his jamiah for calling for an unislamic action such as suicide, inticing revolution and creating greater fitnah. May Allah protect us and help us all.

  134. Mushtaq says:
    April 9th, 2007 8:50 pm

    Mullahs are condemning this not for fear of Allah but for fear of America post 9/11 lest they be declared terrorists…. and due to the already plentiful pressure on institutions like deobundi banuri town madrassa. When did fear of Allah stopped Mullahs form doing anytime? Let’s not be too naïve and give too much credit to Mullahs’ intentions.

  135. Mushtaq says:
    April 9th, 2007 8:57 pm

    As for “good” intentions of hufsa molvis, there are plenty of other issues; education, health, illegal public land grab (in which hufsa is involved itself), crimes against women, poverty and so on…hufsa has not acted against any of these. Why is presumed “fahashi” the only thing on their agenda? Do the rest of ayats and traditions of the prophet don’t mean anything?

  136. Ibrahim says:
    April 9th, 2007 9:34 pm

    Mushtaq, I urge you to guard your tongue against the scholars, and not because I’m offended, which I’m, but because Rasoolillah (saw) has said in an authentic narration(narrated in Jami’ Tirmidhi and Ibn Majah):”The virtue of the scholar to a worshipper is similar to the virtue of the moon when it is full to the rest of the stars. And verily the scholars are the inheritors of the Prophets. Verily the Prophets did not leave behind dirhams and deenars, but rather they left behind knowledge. Thus whoever takes it, takes it as a bountiful share.”
    So, inshaAllah, be careful of what you say.

    Funny, you and like-minded people are usually quick to attack others if there’s even a hint of judging someone’s intentions. But, here you decided to declare the true nature of today’s scholars of Islam and call them fearless of Allah. On top of them, you insult them by accusing them of fearful to other forces.

    The fact of the matter is, by Allah, inshaAllah, you are quite naive. You can’t fathom what true deep knowledge of Islam looks like and that it’s attained by many scholars today. By Allah, I knew that scholars will raise their voices against Abdul Aziz and his jamia. I invite you to reject your bias against the scholars and be open-minded in reading about Islamic teachers and scholars. Read about Islam, the seerah of Rasoolillah (saw), scholars’ biographies, etc to come to a conclusion if scholars, even today, fear Allah or not! I’m not implying that you don’t know about Islam or you don’t read about Islam and related topics, but your bias is evident from above comments and inshaAllah it’s best that we correct such things in the light of the hadith above.

  137. Social Mistri says:
    April 9th, 2007 9:35 pm

    Adnan, you didn’t ask me, and my responses are being moderated out the wazoo, which is frankly, putting me off big time… but here goes. Not only do I support shutting mosques down, but also bulldozing them if they have become a menace for law-abiding citizens, or are illegally constructed on thieved land. This is the sunnah of the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him and his family). If a mosque is being used for evil, don’t rehabilitate it, or merely lock it up. Bulldoze it to the ground. Reusing it for good purposes isn’t enough. Is tarha ki “evil” masjid ka naam o nishaan mita do. Jamia Hafsa needs to be bulldozed as per the sunnah of the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him and his family).

  138. Social Mistri says:
    April 9th, 2007 9:38 pm

    Ibrahim, let’s not get into the hadith-quoting game. For every hadith you quote someone will show you a hadith that says the opposite.

  139. Social Mistri says:
    April 9th, 2007 9:54 pm

    Sorry… i am just cracking up at “guard your tongue against scholars”.. why, are they going to pull it out? did you mean “hold your tongue”… :-)

  140. tina says:
    April 9th, 2007 10:22 pm

    Who owns the land that the illegally built masajids are constructed on? Does not the owner of the land have the final say in what happens?

    If not, then what is to prevent anyone from coming on to somebody else’s lawn and putting up four walls and a roof and calling that a masajid so he can do whatever he likes there? Does this structure then have to be on my lawn forever because someone put it there and called it a masajid?

    Just asking.

  141. Ibrahim says:
    April 9th, 2007 10:31 pm

    Salamalikum,

    It’s quite a wrong statement to say that for every hadith on something there is another hadith that upholds the opposite view.
    I’ll stay at my level of dignity and not make fun of you, but you might want to check it out: guard your tongue against isn’t incorrect. ‘Guard your tongue’~= ‘Watch what you say’ against someone or just in general. Check out a book of idioms or just google it. SubhanAllah, you were “cracking up” at my ‘mistake’ and if Allah wants, He can put anyone in his/her place. Hopefully, you’ll learn to think before you blurt out something.

  142. Islamabadite says:
    April 10th, 2007 2:38 am

    Junaid

    I agree with you that the best course is to let them self-destruct and not let them becomes heroes and martyrs.

    But I also do not think that legitimizing them by having senior government people told ‘talks’ with them is the answer. That only makes them look more important than they are.

  143. Social Mistri says:
    April 9th, 2007 11:05 pm

    Tina, the maulvis who are looking for political influence over the unassuming and essentially simple minded people of Pakistan begin this badmashi by first setting up road side “donation” dabbas staffed typically by kids who should really be in school, but are bound to a madrasa in a mullah’s tutelage because their parents didn’t have the money to support them.

    Once enough money is raised, the mullahs quickly identify a piece of land – typically government owned – this can even be on part of a road, believe it or not, as a couple of mosques on the Canal Bank in Lahore (towards Jallo), are. They start to build it, hang a “takhti” that claims this building is a masjid. Then it becomes impossible for the police to do anything. They use their initial chanda to get one or two rooms and typically at least a minar going. The dome is more expensive to make so they have to raise more chanda for this. Once that is put into place, it essentially becomes the perfect crime – inviolable because it is a “Holy” place.

    That’s how this land-grabbing mafia works. because they usually grab government land, there is no ONE person who cares enough to take them on. And they know this all too well. Once they have stolen the land, and built the illegal structure, they then try to attract people from the locality by offering them a variety of things – “salvation”, “i’ll make your kid into a maulvi and will support him for the next 10 years” type promises etc. etc. People are preyed upon, rather than jah-namazes being prayed upon. The whole mafia grows out like this.. after a few years the “bright” (i.e. completely brainwashed) lieutenants are encouraged to go out and start it all over again to build another mosque. The number of mosques traced back to the original land-grabbing maulvi makes that maulvi a big shot in the mullah community.

    This happens in Lahore all the time. There is a masjid in Main market Gulberg. I have with my own eyes seen the maulvi of that masjid encourage his students to kick cars, prevent automobiles from crossing the part of the boulevard that connects main market with mini market (next to city center). He has expanded his mosque in terms of construction, onto the road itself and on to the gallis on both sides. No one can touch him.

    I am sure you all have thousands of similar mullah land grabbing stories. No one does anything for the same reason that Musharraf isn’t ordering all the 5000 terrorists in Jamia Ashrafia arrested and tried in the ATC.

  144. Social Mistri says:
    April 9th, 2007 11:15 pm

    My friend, I understand what “guard your tongue” means. However, the correct use of it is to say “guard your tongue from evil speech”. Not, “guard your tongue against the scholars”. Guarding it against the scholars suggests that they are after my tongue… which is what I was implying in jest… but I guess you’re getting all wound up about this “respecting the scholars” business, so let’s forget it.

  145. Sirat-e-Mustaqeem says:
    April 10th, 2007 2:49 am

    Thank you Adnan Siddiqui. Now I understand your point. You are right. We must all respect the right of non-Muslim Pakistanis to participate in these discussions.
    So, on behalf of all true Muslims, I welcome you and your friends in Lal Masjid to also participate fully. We Muslims have a big enough heart to even allow people of your religion to participate.

    Dear ATP Moderator, please allow Adnan Siddiqui and other non-Muslims full opportunity to participate in this forum.

  146. Zahra M. says:
    April 10th, 2007 2:20 am

    A good editorial in Daily Times today:

    Jamia Hafsa, dictatorship and democracy

    The PML chief, Chaudhry Shujaat Hussain, called on the Lal Masjid Imam, Maulana Abdul Aziz, and his brother Ghazi Abdur Rashid on Saturday to “negotiate the rowâ€

  147. April 10th, 2007 12:13 am

    We urge readers – once again – to please read and respect ATP comment policy; especially in terms of off-topic and irrelevant discussions or offensive personal exchanges.

    If people are getting worked up about their comments being moderated, please also understand that the time wasted in doing so bugs us even more. We urge you, therefore, to please respect our comment policy so that there is no need to moderate or put people on automatic moderation.

    Thanks.

  148. Ikram Ch. says:
    April 10th, 2007 2:51 am

    I think this is a very important point.

    The biggest strategic mistake will be to make hero and shaheed out of them. Then this will only grow bigger. This has to be handled with care so that it does not blow up into anything bigger. But also it has to be contained soon.

  149. Akbar A.H. says:
    April 10th, 2007 10:23 am

    I am very glad that the Lal Masjid website is up again. Removing it was a stopid ideas just like the blog ban has been stupid. The way to deal with dissent is not violence or forced silencing. I say, let them propagate their message of hate but then also let other messages be propagated. And hopefully people are wise enough to know which one to listen to.

  150. Social Mistri says:
    April 10th, 2007 12:24 am

    Lahori dude, don’t make this out into a conspiracy theory :-) I just get all riled up because on the one hand we have the country held hostage by a band of lunatic mullahs, and on the other hand we have people here who are attempting to defend them…

  151. Faraz says:
    April 10th, 2007 12:25 am

    People have been going off on tangents of tangents. Lets all agree that a guy (Mr Maulana Abdul Aziz) who announced “I am now 46 years old and am ready to marry a woman who is between 35 to 40 years of age.” is full of it. And a parallel judicial system is the last thing this country needs. End of story and good night.

  152. Ibrahim says:
    April 10th, 2007 12:30 am

    Salamalikum,

    Mistri, I got moderated out by ATP because I think my comments were too long and of course I was answering you so they might be considered off-topic also. But, you asked a serious question. If you don’t want to give out your email address, make a new one and give it to me and I’ll send you the reply, inshaAllah. Although it was quite long, it was on the lines of what Jabir has said. Willing to exchange email addresses?

  153. Social Mistri says:
    April 10th, 2007 12:35 am

    yeah, just as long as you don’t send the hafsa danda brigades after me :-) socialmistri A.T. yahoo.com btw, i did read your comments just before they were mod’ed out and i wrote a response (how dheet of me!!) and that got mod’ed out too. so i’ll email you my response since i spent 3 whole minutes typing it out :-)

  154. Social Mistri says:
    April 10th, 2007 12:46 am

    The News has played a really commendable role in this whole Hafsa fiasco. They’ve really lambasted the mullahs and exposed their venemous agenda in a series of editorials and articles.

    The News writes in their Editorial today:

    Ludicrous

    The uproar over Federal Minister for Culture and Tourism Nilofer Bakhtiar’s supposedly ‘un-Islamic’ act of parachuting using the help of a French instructor is, to put it mildly, absolutely absurd and hypocritical. Political and religious circles, some citizens, and certain sections of even the media, seem to be using the incident as fodder and have targeted the minister questioning her character. For starters, the gossip about her ‘sitting on the lap of a foreign man’, which seems to have spread faster than the Bubonic plague, is without any basis. When one goes parachuting, it is standard operation procedure to have a trained person sit behind the individual who is readying him/herself for the jump. There is nothing ‘obscene’ about this since in fact it is the norm. It seems that those who have found this vulgar and have gone to the ludicrous extent of demanding her ouster from the cabinet (and issuing a fatwa in the process) will find even a woman talking to a man vulgar.

    The reaction is reflective of the narrow-mindedness and humbug that has come to dominate many segments of Pakistani society. It is unfortunate and alarming that trivial issues such as these seem to draw so much attention, especially from self-righteous and self-professed guardians of morality while blatant cases of social injustice are conveniently brushed under the carpet. One can safely say that this is only to be expected since it is much easier to fulminate and to question a person’s (especially a woman’s) morals and judge her than to actually carry out acts that add to the public good such as reducing illiteracy or something as simple as telling people not to litter. As for the zealots of Lal Masjid who have seen it fit to issue a ‘fatwa’ against the minister, for this allegedly ‘obscene’ act, one can only say that this reflects poorly on them and shows their own sanctimonious attitude. What is ironic is that these very extremists, whose warped interpretation of religion and penchant for being society’s keeper of morals has made them see a parachuting off a plane as a ‘vulgar’ act, are themselves using violence to impose their views on the rest of society and threatening the government with suicide attacks.

  155. Harris says:
    April 10th, 2007 12:48 am

    These ignorant Mullahs are determined to destroy Pakistan with their twisted definition of Islam. There is nothing they won’t do to advance their agenda.

    It is mind boggling how many supposedly educated people are buying into this crap. I hope Zia ul Haq Burns in hell for giving us this evil.

  156. Adnan Siddiqi says:
    April 10th, 2007 12:51 am

    Tina I didn’t find any thing thought provking in your post. What all I found that you were supporting the act of dictator to seize masjids of the are where he visits. Your crazy imaginaiton makes you believe that masjids are places of terrorism. Well you are free for your opinion neither I assume every one on this forum a follower of Islam but when God has given you freedom to hide your own belief and attack on others then who am I to stop you?

  157. Jabir Khan says:
    April 10th, 2007 1:23 am

    These ignorant Liberals are determined to destroy Pakistan with their twisted definition of Islam. There is nothing they won’t do to advance their agenda.

    It is mind boggling how many supposedly educated people are buying into this crap. I hope Yahya Khan Burns in hell for giving us this evil.

  158. Adnan Siddiqi says:
    April 10th, 2007 1:25 am

    Thoough I personally don’t agree with the practise of issuing fatwa individually to everyone who doesn’t follow something but the statment given by Nilofar Bkhtiar that it was not UN-ISLAMIC,I felt offended as a Muslim and people here rather supporting her sick statment. Retardness has reached to its highest level. After reading statment that talking against hugging is example of Talibanization,
    ibrahim bhai it just made me realized one thing that we make a big mistake to assume every forum member a muslim. How come we forget our *innocent* minorities? These people take the illegal advantage of majority population of Pakistan who is muslim and wickedly and cowardly pretend themselves as muslims while they talk against Islam. The recent statments about pro hugging just gave me hint that these people are not aware of basic concept of “Mahram” which is mentioned on several places in Quran. Well, We shouldn’t assume every faith follower to know basics of Islam so kindly do make a 2nd thought before you start quoting hadith or Quran to just every other member here. Atleast I will not get engaged with someone unless I am not sure about other person’s belief otherwise It would be like talking software design patterns with a MBBS doctor.

    I don’t care whether nilofar hug some man,drink alcohol or even involved in other filthy things, but i really condemn when such retards try to hide behind Islam or other religion’s basics to justify their fantasies. How coward they are. I recently read a verse about the people who ridicule Quran and Islamic teachings in which God Himself gave a solution to deal with people who make fun of verses by not accepting them.


    And it has already come down to you in the Book that when you hear the verses of Allah [recited], they are denied [by them] and ridiculed; so do not sit with them until they enter into another conversation. Indeed, you would then be like them. Indeed Allah will gather the hypocrites and disbelievers in Hell all together

    Our/or atleast my mistake that I didn’t realize this verse earlier. I would prefer not to answer those who ridicule Islam and becoming their ally.

    The conditions of these anti-Islamic forces reminds me the first Misra of famous Ghalib shair:

    Go Haath me Jumbish nahi, Ankhoun mey tu dam hey

    these anti-Islamic forces who are helpless against the fast propagation of Islam are frustrated and upset and they feel themselves helpless that they can’t do anything practical to stop it. So Jab tak “Ankhoun me ink dam hey” in ko mazay karnay do. Akhir kar, adil’s website is heaven on earth for them .:-). I would rather request you ,Abdullah bhai or others muslims if you can utilize your energy to help me to spread/preach Islam to masses rather these few people. Don’t worry about them. They can’t bite. :-)

  159. Adnan Siddiqi says:
    April 10th, 2007 1:31 am

    the verse I mentioned in my last post was (Quran 4:140).

  160. Adnan Siddiqi says:
    April 10th, 2007 2:35 am

    sirat mustaqeem, why are you reacting?. Why did i t irk to you only?… “liberal k darhi me tinka” but.. you people are anti beared so i should say “liberal k moonch me tinka”? :-)

    This so called Pakistniat website has been preaching for long that Pakistan is not all about Muslims only. I also getting agreed with that and saying that non-Muslim Pakistanis also participate on this forum.

  161. Adnan Siddiqi says:
    April 10th, 2007 3:47 am

    A big grin at Sirat Mustaqeem. This is all I could give in return to your childish rants. :-) Keep it up!

  162. Saad says:
    April 10th, 2007 8:37 am

    Jami’ah Hafsa’s website is back online…

    http://www.lalmasjid.com

  163. April 10th, 2007 9:13 am

    two of seven mosques in which one of them was near Islamabad club was demolished because it was being an obstacle in VVIP movement[i.e: movement of dictator]. I dont live in Islamabad so can’t guess the name. I didn’t know unless it was revealed in ARY program by Anwar Alam of opposition and Aijazul Haq couldn’t refute because it was a press release by interior ministry and it was all propagated as “illegal construction”.

  164. MQ says:
    April 10th, 2007 11:24 am

    The show that opened at the Lal Masjid, Islamabad some weeks ago and is still running didn’t happen suddenly. It was in the making for some years but the government, conveniently, looked the other way. Consider the following:

    A few years ago, when Azam Tariq of Sipah Sahaba was gunned down in Islamabad, there were violent protests in the city spearheaded by the same two mullahs and the madrassas who are in the news now. The protesters, mostly the students from the Lal Masjid and Jamia Freediah, rampaged through the Melody Market, attacked several shops and burnt down the only cinema house in town. Most tragically, when the young chowkidar of the cinema house tried to escape from the burning building, the protesters threw brickbats at him forcing him back into the building. He perished in the fire.

    The incident was widely reported and commented upon but no one was held accountable for the murder and arson. Not a single mullah condemned the murder of this innocent man.

    In 2004 illegal weapons were found in the car of the Imam of Lal Masjid. But the government let him go at the intervention of the religious affairs minister and some “ulemaâ€

  165. Ikram says:
    April 10th, 2007 11:32 am

    what i do not understand is that these mullahs have always had it in for the destruction of pakistan yet we continue to give them time and respect – is it not the time now for the silent majority of pakistanis to stand up to these nasty people who want slavery and illitracy for pakistan and pakistanis
    enough is enough fight them

  166. Mushtaq says:
    April 10th, 2007 12:14 pm

    [quote]Jami’ah Hafsa’s website is back online…

    http://www.lalmasjid.com/quote

    It’s running off zone.net servers in FL. Hence Government can’t control it.

  167. tina says:
    April 10th, 2007 12:55 pm

    Thank you Social Mistri for answering my question.

    Wow so they can really do that and accumulate real estate in this manner. And as long as they call those bricks and mortar a masajid, if anybody tries to do anything people like Adnan will be out in the streets and shedding blood to deny the owners of the land (in this case govt. of Pakistan) their legal property rights.

    That’s a magnificent racket for the mullahs.

    I wonder what Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) would think of building “masajids” for the purpose of illegal gain and subverting the rule of law. Adnan, since you have decided I am not a Muslim won’t you tell me?

  168. tina says:
    April 10th, 2007 1:05 pm

    Zahra M., maybe “out of court settlement” means the govt. is going to pay the maulvis a bundle of money to call off their burqa-clad ladies and end the crisis. I guess if that happens that will tell us what the maulvis are “really” after, and it isn’t the end of immorality in society.

    They will have branched out from property theft to religiously justified extortion.

    Then there will be another crisis and another, each one getting more expensive.

    It sounds like they are starting to lose their defenders, even among religious conservatives, though. This could end up being a good thing.

  169. Lahori says:
    April 10th, 2007 10:09 pm

    As I see today’s papers it seems that the government is totally caving in to the Lal Masjid people. I hope it is not so.

    But there is a very good op-ed by Nasim Zehra in The News which says some of the things Adil Najam has also been raising here.
    http://thenews.jang.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=50523
    This is how Nasim Zehra ends her piece:

    “There is still a silver lining underlying today’s turbulent Pakistan; that Pakistan is not irreconcilably fragmented; that underlying most of the anguish and torment is the rejection of injustice. Hence the only the unifying call that can take us out of this mess is the call to rule of law. This will mobilise the public to a common platform; to a unified and prosperous but democratically competitive Pakistan.”

  170. Mushtaq says:
    April 10th, 2007 5:41 pm

    Normally Police listen to Mullahs…but if both sides are Mullahs who should police listen to? Mullahs at it again…the thing they do best…fasad.

    کراچی: پولیس موبائل نذرÙ

  171. Mushtaq says:
    April 10th, 2007 5:44 pm

    ان کا Ú©Û

  172. Asad says:
    April 10th, 2007 5:51 pm

    People who still cry over demolishing of the mosques need to reread the history of the construction of Masjid-e-Nabvi in Medina and how the land was bought from two orphan brothers. After all, the Sunnah is one of the ropes of Allah, the second (or first,as you might see it) being the Quran.

    If the people who construct these mosques have legal documents proclaiming that the mosque was built on legitimately bought land, there should be no demolishing and government should apologize. If not, where are the bulldozers? I will drive them myself.

    ’nuff said.

  173. mohammed says:
    April 10th, 2007 6:19 pm

    blasphemy! mullah must establish its raj on earth – naturally pakistan should benefit from the maulvis guidance, the whole country should STOP and under the holy guidance of the mullah must return to the seventh century. we care not that the world progresses and moves forward. oh mullah save pakistan – pleeese! enough of this hugging french men – HUG A MULLAH!

  174. Social Mistri says:
    April 11th, 2007 12:06 am

    You’re welcome, Tina.

    I fly back to Lahore tomorrow (in the USA currently). It’ll be interesting to see what the prevalent thought is over there, concerning this mullah-created fiasco. Those with saner minds should really use this as an opportunity to end the mullah menace once and for all. What has come out of this whole Jamia Hafsa incident is the need to create a coherent strategy to eliminate the mullahs from politics and to defang those that remain.

    How do you eliminate them from politics? I think it is as simple as exposing who they *really* are, to the masses. If you were to (frightening as the thought may be) imagine yourself in the same room with Fazlur Rehman or the Hafsa brothers, overhearing a private conversation, what do you think it would be? From what I’ve seen of Mullahs, it would be uneducated, uncouth, hate filled and essentially despicable. The public needs to see this face of the mullah.

    I am SURE the intelligence agencies have significant material documenting all this and more. This material should be made public. We need to expose the mullahs for what they are. These mullahs had taken a similar tack against Nusrat Bhutto, back in 1988. They stooped so low as to print ishtihars of Nusrat Bhutto at a diplomatic function (a ball from the 1960s!!!!), wearing a very dignified sari… they labelled that “fahashi” and “unislamic” and put up posters in the main market chowk and other places in Lahore (which I saw with my own eyes) and called Benazir and Nusrat Bhutto filthy street slang for prostitute. They need a taste of their own medicine.

    To destroy the mullah all you have to do is expose his true, ugly, despicable character to the people. That is all they will need to put an end to this disgusting phenomenon. No more Jamia Hafsas will happen. Guaranteed.

    Or we could wait a while more and let Allah mian’s lambi dheel run out, at which point He will strike at them with lightning bolts from the sky and fasttrack them to Hell. ‘Cause they certainly deserve it.

  175. Lahori says:
    April 19th, 2007 9:52 pm

    I think the nation is finally waking up… reading this made me feel proud of a people who are refusing to take this hooliganism and criminal behavior and rising their voices. From Daily Times:

    Civil society rallies against extremism

    LAHORE/ISLAMABAD/ KARACHI/PESHAWAR: Thousands of Pakistanis staged rallies in major cities on Thursday to condemn extremism and exploitation in the name of Islam.

    Rights activists organised simultaneous protests in Lahore, Islamabad, Karachi and Peshawar to denounce extremist actions by students of the Jamia Hafsa and Jamia Fareedia madrassas, affiliated to Lal Masjid, in the capital.

    Several thousand Lahoris marched in blistering heat on The Mall – the first time a large crowd has rallied against religious extremism in the city – in a rally organised by the Women’s Action Forum (WAF) in collaboration with other non-governmental organisations.

    The protestors – including civil society and human rights activists, minority groups, political workers, lawyers, trade unions, journalists and students – gathered at the Lahore High Court building and began marching towards the Punjab Assembly building at 2:00pm.

    “Mullahism murdabad. Lay kay rahen gay azadi,â€

  176. Concerned Pakistani says:
    April 11th, 2007 12:23 am

    I disagree with the idea being mentioned about how much damage could dandas do? It is not the physical damage the dandas can inflict but the possibility of providing these fanatics with martyrs, that could God Forbid turn public opinion in their favor. The fact that thousands showed up for the speech of the Maulana is proof enough that these people are master progandists. More importantly if this appears to the people as a battle between Musharraf and the Maulana, it could turn into a confusing choice because of the former’s own failures and hated dictatorship. For Musharraf this has been another God sent oppurtunity to divert attention from the CJ case. The responsibility rests on the moderates in Pakistan to let their opinions be own and expose both these parties for what they are. We cant justify military action against these misled masses, since we are the ones who failed them and allowed their senseless and tragic exploitation in the political games of the ISI and the CIA during and after the Soviet-Afghan war.

  177. Maleeha says:
    April 18th, 2007 3:47 pm

    As others have mentioned, one big result of the way this was handled or not handled is that it has boldened the LalMasjid ghundas and they are now roaming the city scaring people just the way the taliban did. From the newspapers it seems the same thing is happening in other cities.

  178. April 11th, 2007 1:55 am

    @AsadAsif: You managed to read heard that how the Prophet[saw] bought the land but you didn’t manage to read the history of Islamabad that how this city was build illegally like the Israeli state.

    Go and read the history of Islamabad and drive buildoze the entire ILLEGAL city.

  179. Adnan Siddiqi says:
    April 11th, 2007 2:15 am

    KHalid Masood Khan,famous Comedy poet pens about hypocrisy of liberal and secular govt.

    tinyurl.com/2r9ovn

    Indeed the resident “bhanjay and bhanjiyan” of aunty shamim are upset due to closing of their aunty’s business.

    */me enjoys the show* :-)

  180. Qadir Kareem says:
    April 13th, 2007 2:11 am

    I heard about the blocking of teh Lal masjid website. That is just plain stupid. Who is advising these guys. Let them have their website and let people decide for themselves. Controlling blogs and websites is never the solution.

  181. Qureshi says:
    April 18th, 2007 2:18 pm

    It seems that there are more and more of these Madrassa fellows in Islamabad each time one goes there. I have been going for a long time and seems like there are more now than there were even in the Zia days

  182. Ismail Hussein says:
    April 17th, 2007 10:07 pm

    Isn’t this treason … to totally deny the sovereignty of the state. From The News today:

    ===========

    ISLAMABAD: Lal Masjid and its surroundings have been declared a no-go area for the personnel of law enforcing agencies in uniform and police as well as government vehicles to avoid any unpleasant situation, official sources responsible for maintaining rule of law in the metropolis told The News.

    The activists of Lal Masjid, advancing another step to challenge the writ of the government, have blocked all the thoroughfares around the Lal Masjid, interdicting public including media men from crossing through ‘borders’ of their ‘occupied land’.

    “The police authorities have directed the police personnel in particular, and other personnel of law enforcing agencies and their vehicles in general, not to use the roads and streets around Lal Masjid, specially roads which have been barricaded by the local Talibaan,â€

  183. mohammed says:
    April 11th, 2007 6:35 am

    Social Mistri bhai, i think you are correct – what we the people of pakistan should do is set up a website like ‘www.pakmullah.com’ and expose eah and every mullah of what this scumbags get up to.
    this we need to do it seems the pakistan government is too scared to challenge the mullahs infestation into the bodypolitic of pakistan.
    we need to do this…
    imagine people can send us things like pictures, stories, video clips of what these anti-pak and anti-islam mullahs get upto whilst hoodwinking innocent kids towards radicalisation and extremism.
    lets start a website ‘pakmullah.com’ isi has enough evidence to hang these mullahs but they are too damn scared – they could put it on the net ‘pakmullah.com’ can you just imagine the hits we are going to get – especially on ‘what is mullah sandwich?’

  184. Asad says:
    April 11th, 2007 10:42 am

    @ Adnan:

    You are back to calling out other commentators instead of providing insightful comments. Going by your logic, every city or human dwelling is illegally built. Let’s see you start bulldozing your own house for starters.

    I stand by my last comment. Why did they not show proof of ownership of land? There wouldn’t has been a need for escalation of this issue. The only reason can be that they have no proof. They are simply another qabza group.

  185. tina says:
    April 11th, 2007 11:17 am

    Adnan, are you saying Islamabad is like Israel now? Really? oh, oh, oh oh. And of course the mullahs need to be following the example of Israel and seizing land and buildings? God preserve us from learning from Israel!

    Social Mistri, lucky you, I wish I was flying back to Lahore tomorrow too (sigh). Have a good trip, and post your thoughts for us.

  186. mohammed says:
    April 11th, 2007 2:54 pm

    methinks social mistri misses the lovely lahori food! gosh i feel hungry now…….

    anyway enough of this.

    why don’t we get a couple of mullahs to issue a fatwa launching a new sect ‘lashkari mullah’ for erm, highly religious gangs like these mullahites in the middle of islamabad – then we give them their own terrortry (get it :-))we can do this in the middle of thar desert and fench it off from the rest of pakistan and give it independence.

    the mullah will live to the full of its limited potential whilst pakistan and pakistanis could move on to join the world.

  187. Asad says:
    April 11th, 2007 3:26 pm

    An interesting take on Madrassas:

    Inside the Madrassas

    I consider this to be a reasonable analysis of the Madrassas in Pakistan.

  188. Asad says:
    April 11th, 2007 3:35 pm

    An interesting take on Madrassas:

    Inside the Madrassas
    http://www.asadasif.com/?itemid=89

    I consider this to be a reasonable analysis of the Madrassas in Pakistan.

    PS:repeated comment. Link didn’t appear in previous comment.

  189. Ansar says:
    April 14th, 2007 3:04 pm

    I just spoke to friends who live near Lal Masjid and used to go there for Friday prayers. They said that they have stopped going there as have many other residents of the government houses near there.

  190. April 11th, 2007 5:04 pm

    Wah asad mian when you use the tone “People who still cry over demolishing” then it’s reflection of your education background and when it’s used by me then you call it name calling? intresting.

    I knew that you wouldn’t have some sensible answer regarding isb history and you started anap shanap that “every city or human dwelling is illegally built”. My Nadeem go and make some study rather arguing for sake of argument only. Read how Isb was establish and how other cities were organized in Pakistan. That’s all I could advise.

    @Tina bibi, jab mullah ko galian he deni hey tu mujhe se kuch sawal pochna ka wajah kia rahjati hay. Aap apney moo se motion ka maala jharti rahaye takay hum aur dosre readers unki Khushboo se apna dimagh ko Moattar kartay rahain.

  191. Faraz says:
    April 11th, 2007 6:18 pm

    I am eagerly waiting for three things to end (not necessarily in that order):
    1) The dictatorship.
    2) The jahalat of the Mullahs.
    3) The useless, annoying and cyclic dicussion on this thread.

  192. Social Mistri says:
    April 11th, 2007 10:17 pm

    Here I am sitting at the Emirates lounge in NYC, waiting for my flight to leave. This comment is brought to you courtesy of Emirates’ free in-lounge wifi!

    Here is a youtube video of an interview with the crazy Red-Hat maulana, as some of my friends now call him..

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76draLi59PA

    As for Lahore, oh yeah!! Here I come!! Can’t wait to get back. I start missing Lahore a couple of days before I leave.

    Cheers! Now I am off to consume some excellent chocolate mousse topped with whipped cream and fresh strawberries.

  193. Social Mistri says:
    April 11th, 2007 10:18 pm

    Faraz, you can end the third by not continuously revising this thread… easy!

  194. Social Mistri says:
    April 11th, 2007 10:19 pm

    I meant revisiting, not revising. Duh!

  195. mohammed says:
    April 12th, 2007 6:09 am

    Its sad that every government official seems to be running to these mullahs then get on their knees as they approach these supposedly holy fanatics.

    Another very good editorial in The News:

    Musharraf is caving into extremists. Like-minded obscurantists and vigilantes across the country know that crime certainly pays off in Pakistan if they have a beard and quote a couple of verses from the quran – like that Mullah who murdered the provincial minister will be grow stronger.

    They are infesting a childrens library! – what more do the government/people of pakistan need to take action against these blinkered obscurantists.

    NO government and no people if it wants to have any legitimacy in the eyes of the nation or international community – and the eyes Allah SWT should give in to a bunch of thugs using Islam.

    Reports suggest, several ministers and intelligence agencies have ruled out an operation against the fanatics or kept it as a measure of last resort?

    Now all this means the mullahs will keep stretching out this to see how far the goalposts will go for the supposed government to do anything of worthwhile against them – naturally other mullahs will follow after this.

    The PML-Q chief seems out of his depth whenever he deals with mullahs – or assorted thugs – no official should be talking to these people – it simply gives the mullahs more legitmacy.

    I am simply asking why beat the lawyers of Pakistan silly – because they demonstrated – peacefully, why attack media offices because they simply tried to explain a story of views of people truthfully – then WHY? Why …give any time to these Taliban/AlQaeda types in the heart of Pakistan? What are we telling our people? what are we telling the world?

    There are people who would like to invest in Pakistan, there are people who would like to see the natural beauty of Pakistan, there are people who would like to see Pakistan strong and prosperous – and a few mullahs stand in the way like highway robbers – and the whole nation is at standstill.

    The People of Pakistan need leadership and rule of law – they would like to see their nation develop and their children to get worldly knowledge so they can compete with their fellow human beings inetrnationally – not become slaves of either mullahs now or the world later.

  196. tina says:
    April 13th, 2007 10:39 am

    Social Mistri, you remind me of a fellow I knew in college, he always said exactly the same thing, “I always start missing Lahore a few days before I leave”!

    Maybe this will become the latest motto among the Lahori faithful, something along the lines of “Lahore, Lahore aye!”

  197. sara says:
    April 14th, 2007 9:43 am

    What can I say? What can anyone say?

    Lets cheer these people on. “Go, destroy the image of Islam, Muslims and Pakistan. Give the Western media open cause to insult our faith and our country. We depend on the Mullahs for all of that. I request them to not to ever let us down and to continue spreading their blessings of nonsense all over “The Pure Land.”

  198. mohammed says:
    April 14th, 2007 6:31 pm

    These nutcases have abused the Lal Masjid, Assaulted fellow muslims, insulted Pakistan and declared war on the very religion of Islam. They need to dealt with a firm hand and Pakistanis should be encouraged to protect themselves should these thugs attack them – whether or not they are dress in Burkas or Turbans.

    Just look at the picture above at the start of this blog – this is what these people represent. This is not Islamiat, Pakistaniat or Ihnsaniat.

    Look at the these Mullahs and their disciples – how long must we keep them loose roaming and causing havoc in the nation and destroying peoples lives.

  199. Nazir says:
    April 14th, 2007 9:00 pm

    میوزیکل شو پر جمعیت کا Û

  200. bhattione says:
    April 19th, 2007 4:16 pm

    Peace all,

    The HOLY QURAN says:

    LET THERE BE NO COMPULSION IN RELIGION. Truth stands out clear from error; whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things. 2:256

    O ye who believe! GUARD YOUR OWN SOULS: If ye follow (right) guidance, no hurt can come to you from those who stray. The goal of you all is to Allah: it is He that will show you the truth of all that ye do. 5:105

    WHOEVER DOES GOOD, IT IS FOR HIS OWN SOUL, and WHOEVER DOES EVIL, IT IS AGAINST HIMSELF; then you shall be brought back to your– Lord. 45:15.

    Say: YOU WILL NOT BE QUESTIONED AS TO WHAT WE ARE GUILTY OF, NOR SHALL WE BE QUESTIONED AS TO WHAT YOU DO. 34:25.
    Say: Our Lord will gather us together, THEN WILL HE JUDGE BETWEEN US WITH THE TRUTH; and HE IS THE GREATEST JUDGE, the All-knowing. 34:26.

    SAY: DO YOU DISPUTE WITH US ABOUT ALLAH, and HE IS OUR LORD and YOUR LORD, and WE SHALL HAVE OUR DEEDS and YOU SHALL HAVE YOUR DEEDS, and we are sincere to Him. 2:139.

    This is a people that have passed away; THEY SHALL HAVE WHAT THEY EARNED and YOU SHALL HAVE WHAT YOU EARN, and YOU SHALL NOT BE CALLED UPON TO ANSWER FOR WHAT THEY DID. 2:141

    According to the above verses the most important message for us is “to worry about our own deeds/conducts/soulsâ€

  201. Nazir says:
    April 19th, 2007 4:38 pm

    Very well said bhattione.

    Million dollar quote;

    [quote]
    “to worry about our own deeds/conducts/soulsâ€

  202. bhattione says:
    April 19th, 2007 5:26 pm

    Peace all,

    Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith: 1.69-Narrated by-Anas bin Malik
    The Prophet said, “Facilitate things to people (concerning religious matters), and DO NOT MAKE IT HARD FOR THEM and give them good tidings and DO NOT MAKE THEM RUN AWAY (FROM ISLAM).”

    Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith- 1.38-Narrated by-Abu Huraira
    The Prophet said, “RELIGION IS VERY EASY and whoever overburdens himself in his religion will not be able to continue in that way. SO YOU SHOULD NOT BE EXTREMISTS, but try to be near to perfection and receive the good tidings that you will be rewarded; and gain strength by worshipping in the mornings, the nights.” (See Fath-ul-Bari, Page 102, Vol 1).

    Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith- 8.145-Narrated by-Abu Musa
    That when Allah’s Apostle sent him and Mu’adh bin Jabal to Yemen, he said to them, “FACILITATE THINGS FOR THE PEOPLE (TREAT THE PEOPLE IN THE MOST AGREEABLE WAY), and DO NOT MAKE THINGS DIFFICULT FOR THEM, and give them glad tidings, and let them not have aversion (i.e. to make the people hate good deeds) and you should both work in cooperation and MUTUAL UNDERSTANDING, obey each other.”

    Hadith Qudsi 31
    A man said: By Allah, ALLAH WILL NOT FORGIVE SO-AND-SO. At this Allah the Almighty said: Who is he who swears by Me that I will not forgive So-and-so? Verily I have forgiven So-and-so and have nullified your [own good] deeds (or as he said [it]).

    Al-Tirmidhi Hadith: 5820-Narrated by:Aisha
    Allah’s Messenger (peace be upon him) was not unseemly or lewd in his language, nor was he loud-mouthed in the streets, nor did he return evil for evil, BUT HE WOULD FORGIVE AND PARDON.

    Sahih Muslim Hadith 6273-Narrated by:Aisha
    Allah’s Apostle (peace be upon him) said: Aisha, verily ALLAH IS KIND AND HE LOVES KINDNESS and confers upon kindness which he does not confer upon severity and does not confer upon anything else besides it (kindness).

    Al-Tirmidhi Hadith 1910-Narrated by-Jabir ibn Abdullah
    Allah’s Messenger (peace be upon him) said, “Every act of kindness is “sadaqah, and kindness INCLUDES MEETING YOUR BROTHER WITH A CHEERFUL FACE and pouring water from bucket into your brother’s vessel.”

    Sahih Muslim – 6631-Narrated by-AbuHurayrah
    Allah’s Apostle (peace be upon him) said: There are one hundred (parts of) mercy of Allah and He has sent down out of these one part of mercy upon the jinn and human beings and the insects and it is because of this (one part) that they love one another, SHOW KINDNESS TO ONE ANOTHER and even the beast treats its young one with affection, and Allah has reserved ninety-nine parts of mercy with which He would treat His servants on the Day of Resurrection.

    God bless you all.

  203. ImrANwaR says:
    April 19th, 2007 9:48 pm

    A worth looking Cartoon:

    http://thenews.jang.com.pk/stocks/2007-04-12/cartoon.htm

    Its time to have a smile on our faces brothers and sisters of my Pakistan…

  204. bhattione says:
    April 20th, 2007 8:31 am

    Peace all,

    And there are THOSE WHO PUT UP A MOSQUE BY WAY OF MISCHIEF and INFIDELITY to DISUNITE THE BELIEVERS and in preparation for one who warred against Allah and His apostle aforetime. THEY WILL INDEED SWEAR THAT THEIR INTENTION IS NOTHING BUT GOOD; but Allah doth declare that THEY ARE CERTAINLY LIARS. 9:107

    NEVER STAND (TO PRAY) THERE. A place of worship which was founded upon duty (to Allah) from the first day is more worthy that thou shouldst stand (to pray) therein, wherein are men who love to purify themselves. Allah loveth the purifiers.9:108

    Is he who founded his building upon duty to Allah and His good pleasure better; or he who founded his building on the brink of a crumbling, overhanging precipice so that it toppled with him into the fire of hell? Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.9:109

    God bless you all.

  205. mohammed says:
    April 21st, 2007 5:43 pm

    This should ba an opportunity for all of us to put aside our differences and collectively demonstrate against Mullahism and its desire to have a Mullahraj in Pakistan.

    Already we have witnessed the paradise on earth that mullahism brought Afghanistan under the taliban.

    We the silent majority of Pakistanis will not be silent anymore – we must unite – put away our differences for our nations interest – TOGETHER WE MUST GET OUT AND DEMONSTRATE!

    Lets lead Pakistanis by uniting to defeat the threat to Pakistan of these Mullahs – enough is enough!

    Lets Unite, Lets protect our Faith, Lets be Disciplined in our approach,

    MULLAHRAJ MURDABAD – PAKISTAN ZINDABAD!

  206. Nazir says:
    April 22nd, 2007 8:11 am

    Report on jamia hufsa;

    (http://www.jang.com.pk/jang/apr2007-daily/22-04-2007/up41.gif)

    Choree aur seena-zoree…

  207. Daktar says:
    April 23rd, 2007 12:21 am

    From Daily Times today:

    3 Swabi music shops blown up

    PESHAWAR: A homemade bomb blew up three video and music shops in a market in Swabi, about 100 kilometres northeast of Peshawar, late on Saturday night, police said on Sunday.

    “The blast destroyed one shop and partially damaged two others, but there were no casualties as the market was closed,â€

  208. Nazir says:
    April 23rd, 2007 6:05 am

    The whole country is hijacked by these Mullahs while Mushi is playing flute..

    Paksitan jul raha hai aur musharraf baansree baja raha hai..

  209. bhattione says:
    April 25th, 2007 7:02 am

    Nazir bhai:

    Mulla tay mashaalchi dohaan ikko chit
    Loukan karday chananan, aap anhairae vich

    Mullah and the torch-bearer, both from the same flock
    Guiding others; themselves in the dark
    [baba bullay shah 1680-1758)

  210. Allah Vasaya says:
    April 25th, 2007 11:49 am

    A short bbc report on Jamia Hafsa.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2a4_UGGIcCI

  211. PatExpat says:
    April 30th, 2007 12:20 pm

    Well it turns out that Auntie Shamim was really running a brothel:

    http://www.dailyindia.com/show/137135.php/Brothel-owners-book-may-ruin-marital-lives-of-many-a-Pak-parliamentarian!

    [quote post="647"]The book, to be published by the Oxford University Press, is written by Aunty Shamim, the brothel owner who claims to possess the richest clientele list of this sort in Pakistan. Her clientele includes majority of MNAs, besides senior Army officers and judges.

    The news of Shamim publishing such a book has given driven down the spine of many such MNAs who fear that their names would be surely included in the book. The gravity of the situation could be gauged from the fact that the MNAs who sit on Treasury benches recently discussed the issue with none other Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz.[/quote]

  212. Adnan Siddiqi says:
    April 30th, 2007 3:25 pm

    *grin*

    First uncle[Musharraf] and now Aunty writes an autobiography.

    Now the bhanjay and bhanjiyan[liberals/secularists] would support their aunty by purchasing book in bulk amount :-). Who knows her book appear on the section of Pakistaniat where Adil Najam has given links of “famous” Pakistani books.

    Shabash Aunty Shabash! -Moin Khan style :-)

  213. April 30th, 2007 4:42 pm

    [quote comment="45932"]*grin*

    First uncle[Musharraf] and now Aunty writes an autobiography.

    Now the bhanjay and bhanjiyan[liberals/secularists] would support their aunty by purchasing book in bulk amount :-). Who knows her book appear on the section of Pakistaniat where Adil Najam has given links of “famous” Pakistani books.

    Shabash Aunty Shabash! -Moin Khan style :-)[/quote]

    Indeed, don’t often agree but I must in this case – and I add maybe this is why Pak Gov and especially Shujaat Hussain is bending over backwardass trying to please the Maniac Mullahs – maybe they have got all the details from Aunty and lo!

  214. PatExpat says:
    April 30th, 2007 4:52 pm

    Among the bhanjay and bhanjyan it could be a matter of status as how many times the name of their mamoon appeared in the book.

    Reminds me of General Rani, I wonder why.

  215. Nazir says:
    April 30th, 2007 10:22 pm

    Deen e Mullah fee Sabeelillah Fasaad

    چندÛ

  216. Jabir Khan says:
    May 1st, 2007 12:35 am

    Reminds me of General Rani, I wonder why.

    What a nostalgic reminder. This ‘great’ celebrity deserves a thread of her own on this forum.

    And yes let’s hear about ‘mamoons’ as well. bhanjay bhanjiyon ko chaar chaand lag jayen gay.

  217. Adnan Siddiqi says:
    May 1st, 2007 1:08 am

    Gen.Rani was really a controversial character and I haven’t heard much about her relation with generals. Few days back Jawed Ch mentioned a book which revealed lots of secrets about Yahya and Rani but I don’t remember the name of book anymore.

    Jabir Bhai,asal mey Aunty k bhanjay aur bhanjiyan pareshan hain k wo Mamoo k bachain ya Khala ko. Khala ko bachatay hain tu mamoo k dost phastay hain,mamoo ko bachatay hain tu khala naak me dam kardein gi. I think these bhanjay and bhaniyan would be spending nights in different pubs of United states these days and would be saying everyone Yarou mujhe maaf rakho mey nashay mey houn.. Dekho forum pe mojood kuch bhanjay kaisa apna hawas kho betay hain :-)

  218. Jabir Khan says:
    May 1st, 2007 1:30 am

    Yarou mujhe maaf rakho mey nashay mey houn..

    Adnan, nasha to in ka kitaab parh kar hiran ho jaye gaa.:)

    On General Rani. Her real name was Aklemm Akhtar. She is granny of Fakhre Alam and is ralted to Adnan Sami Khan. She used to call Yahya Khan ‘Agha Jaani’. Here are some links that will some intersting light on the subject, a must read:

    http://www.newsline.com.pk/NewsMay2002/memories.htm

    http://www.dawn.com/weekly/ayaz/20021206.htm

  219. Hairan Pareshaan says:
    May 1st, 2007 3:17 am

    The chichorapan of the last few comments leaves me dumbfounded. How sub-human do you have to be to feel actually HAPPY that someone turns out to be a whore? Or does this display of happiness suggest that they actually think that the ghundagardi of the burqa paltan was justified.

    Bhaijan, dekh to lo keh yeh kitab aati bhi hai ya nahin, aur aati hai tou kahin iss mei aap kay apnay mamoo ka zikr he na ho!

  220. Jabir Khan says:
    May 1st, 2007 10:08 am

    well hiran prishan, i support the coming out of this book even if it contains something about my mamoon (i hope not but if this is the case then so be it). enough of this 60 years of monkey business. now tell me do you support it’s printing or are you ‘realy’ worried about the welfare of your own mamoons?

    how about a change? no more general ranis and aunty shamims and for that matter no more mamoons with their black faces and shamless histories?

  221. Akif Nizam says:
    May 1st, 2007 11:52 am

    Adnan and Jabir, I’m not sure if you gentlemen purposely muddle the arguments or you are just blinded by ideology to even notice how you operate. I have made the same anology before and I’ll make one again. Your modus operandi is very similar to that of the Bush ideologues and how they address their critics: “if you are not with us, you must be with them”, “if you are against the war, you are giving comfort to the enemy”, ” if you criticise us, you are anti-American”. In exactly the same way, instead of making a case for the Lal Masjid lunatics, you folks indulge in the politics of associating their critics with brothels and prostitutes; as if, that’s really what the liberals are upset about.

  222. Jabir Khan says:
    May 1st, 2007 1:46 pm

    Akif read below attentivley:

    معیشت بازار کی ایک اور دوکان ,,,,گریبان…منوبھائی

    اس میں تو شبے Ú©ÛŒ گنجائش تک Ù†Û

  223. Akif Nizam says:
    May 1st, 2007 2:43 pm

    Jabir, I actully almost posted the same parallel two days ago when I first read of the DC news but merely as a joke. It’s a funny coincidence but clearly you don’t really believe that prostitution is a result of the market economy and capitalism? The profession and the practice is as old as humanity; for godssake, Jesus hung out with prostitutes and I believe he was born a year or two before Adam Smith.

  224. Jabir Khan says:
    May 1st, 2007 3:36 pm

    Akif
    So you find it funny that people who have been doing the monkey business for the last 60 years in our country can keep on doing the same in future and continue destroying the livelihood of ordinary Pakistanis? By your account it seems you support it. Now that is a classic example of chichorapan, as hiran prishan accused us of and also claimed whether we will defend our mamoons. I said no I refuse to defend him if he has done this lewdness, let’s see what is your moral standing on this issue?

    If Adnan Sami and Fakhr e Alam defend this business then it’s understandable. But when like of you defend it only makes one suspicious.

    By the way first murder took place earlier than prostitution, does that make murdering someone more enviable?

  225. Akif Nizam says:
    May 1st, 2007 4:46 pm

    Jabir, please refer to my post before last in where I opined that you are accusing liberals of siding with the brothels in order to deflect from the main point of discussion……and there you go again. When did I say that I support these brothels? …..they are against the law and should be closed (by legal authorities). But they have nothing to do with liberalism or capitalism or globalization as the article you posted suggests.

  226. Jabir Khan says:
    May 1st, 2007 5:35 pm

    ..they are against the law and should be closed (by legal authorities)

    Thank you for clarifying your position, but what about liberal ‘extremists’ who support the oldest business theory? I hope you don’t adhere to it.

    Second in capitalism, things get manipulated to maximize profits. Same goes for social evils like brothels as they are exploited to their maximum profitability.

    Third tell me how the ‘long arm of the law’ can shut down the brothels when both law makers and law implementers are either behind this business or are unable to take any action against it? There is a general feeling in the country about Islamabad being a ‘guest house’ town. I hope you understand what I am saying. As many have observed, the issue raised by lal masjid walaas is right but their implementation was wrong. But it is also true when they reported it to related law implementation authorities; they were unable to address it.

    Remember we are living in a country where even its own Chief Justice is begging for Justice.

  227. Allah Vasaya says:
    May 1st, 2007 5:58 pm

    Dear Akif, let me tell you a joke, its best if told in Punjabi, but I will try anyway.

    Two People are sitting next to each other on a train, one of them decides to start a conversation

    Person 1: So where are you heading.
    Person 2: Lahore
    Person 1: What a coincidence, I am going to Lahore too.
    Person 2: Thats nice to know.
    Person 1: So where in Amritsar you from.
    Person 2: Live near Chandni Chowk
    Person 1: Aahaa, I live near Chandni Chowk too.
    Person 2: Wow, thats great
    Person 1: Where exactly near Chandni chowk.
    Person 2: I live in Sheranwali galli.
    Person 1: You gotta be kidding, I live there too.
    Person 2: Get the hell outta here!!
    Person 1: Where exactly is your house located.
    Person 2: Its a big blue house with a black door.
    Person 1: Thats amazing, thats my house too, I live there too.

    Another passenger just couldn’t take it and chimes in “You two live in the same city, in the same locality, in the same street in the same house, how can you not know each other” and one of the sardars goes “Why don’t you mind your own business and let us father and son kill some time”

    In the last few posts here, you seem like that third passenger!

  228. Adnan Siddiqi says:
    May 2nd, 2007 1:06 am

    see what I said! now bhanjays are even “Hairan and Pareshan” k kia karain. Kaha sir deykar marain. These cowards don’t even have ability to comment with orignal identity :-)

  229. Adnan Siddiqi says:
    May 2nd, 2007 1:18 am


    you folks indulge in the politics of associating their critics with brothels and prostitutes; as if, that’s really what the liberals are upset about.

    Oh Come on Akif, you guys didn’t condemn the brothel act of Aunty and kept backing up by using the term “Alleged” despite of whole mohallah gave witness against her. Now aunty herself speaking out so you are being naive and saying “we ain’t upset”. awesome my friend! uncle aur aunty k tarha bhanjay bhe statment badalnay me jawab nahi rakhtay :-)

  230. Hairan Pareshan says:
    May 2nd, 2007 1:22 am

    Jabir says” “now tell me do you support it’s printing”

    Sure I do. Why would you assume that I or someone else would not. I think if it gets printed it woudl be great… supressing books and burning them is NEVER a good idea and is something that narrow-minded people do.

    By the way, I don’t see anyone here or anywhere else opposing its printing… am I missing something or is this one other way of spreading rumors….

    My own sense, however, is that there is no book and there will not be… there is exactly a similar scandal in the US right now and someone has spread the rumor through the media to score chichora points… I just checked the Oxford University Press website and there is no mention of this there.

    But if this comes out, it will be good. Books are always good. And people who oppose books (any books) are usually scary people.

    As for Adnan Siddiqui, badteez logou kay moun lagnay ka koee faida nahin hota, I don’t like talking to neo-cons so I have no interest in responding to you.

  231. Adnan Siddiqi says:
    May 2nd, 2007 3:38 am

    HairanPareshan, LOL! *grin*

    Chanda ,right now Liberals are dependant on neocons. See how that silly liberal Mushrraf obeys what right wing neocons order him :-)

    On a side note, Roshan Khyal Pakistan

  232. Adnan Siddiqi says:
    May 2nd, 2007 3:59 am

    Arbab Rahim forms a new trinity:

    tinyurl.com/2djpju

    In reality He wanted to say

    Jab America aur Fauj Saath hain tu koi Masla nahi. Allah ko tu majboran beech me lana para kion k Election qareeb hain :-)

  233. PatExpat says:
    May 2nd, 2007 5:11 am

    In DAWN today,

    [quote post="647"]At a protest meeting held at the Physics Department auditorium on Monday, they slammed the statement, allegedly made by Maulana Abdul Rasheed Ghazi on an “illegalâ€

  234. Hairan Pareshaan says:
    May 2nd, 2007 6:09 am

    Thank you Pat Expat for sharing this which is very interesting and even more intersting is that my reaction was opposite to yours.

    My question is not why people in Physics department were tuned to teh maulana’s radio (why shoudl they not be, and why should they not speak if others are too afraid to?), my question is why these idiot maulanas have against physics. I guess they do not like scienc and knowledge in general. But why are they targetting the physics department? Why do they think that women who study physics are whores? Maybe it is the ghunda tactics and blackmailing that they do. They know there are some prominent people in physics (like Hodbhai) and they are sending threats to teh department by this blackmailing by blackening the name of everyone there….

    I also wonder why these Maulanas have such a wide and deep knowledge of brothels… I guess they must have a lot of experience of going to brothels!

  235. Akif Nizam says:
    May 2nd, 2007 9:49 am

    Allah Vasaya, very apt and very funny ! You are right, it does constantly feel like i’m interrupting a makeout session between two lovers. I almost feel guilty sometimes cause they seem to be having so much fun.

  236. Allah Vasaya says:
    May 2nd, 2007 10:08 am

    Dear Admin/Editor

    Thanks for editing my joke and making it more politically correct. Believe it or not I did realize after posting it that it may get edited or even deleted. Also editing the joke and a post dedicated to the Sikh cop in Lahore is a funny coincidence!

  237. Jabir Khan says:
    May 2nd, 2007 1:37 pm

    Chanda ,right now Liberals are dependant on neocons. See how that silly liberal Mushrraf obeys what right wing neocons order him

    LOL Adnan this is a disoriented lot, they can’t even make out where they are standing with their compass whirling around wildly. They have lost their senses completely.

  238. May 2nd, 2007 4:57 pm

    TIT FOR TAT

    MULLAH NASRUDDIN WENT INTO A SHOP TO BUY A PAIR OF TROUSERS. THEN HE CHANGED HIS MIND AND CHOSE A CLOAK INSTEAD, AT THE SAME PRICE. PICKING UP THE CLOAK HE LEFT THE SHOP. “YOU HAVE NOT PAID,” SHOUTED THE MERCHANT. “I LEFT YOU THE TROUSERS, WHICH WERE OF THE SAME VALUE AS THE CLOAK.” “BUT YOU DID NOT PAY FOR THE TROUSERS EITHER.OF COURSE NOT,SAID MULLAH ;WHY SHOULD I PAY FOR SOMETHING THAT I DID NOT WANT TO BUY?”

  239. Akif Nizam says:
    May 2nd, 2007 5:02 pm

    “you guys didn’t condemn the brothel act of Aunty”

    Adnan, you are making my point again and again and again. You guys try to drag every discussion into tangential matters so as to distract and confuse the issue. The discussion is not about the preponderence of brothels in Pakistan; the discussion was about the stance and methods of the folks at Las Masjid. No one in their right minds would support brothels but you make it seem as if opponents of Lal Masjid folks are by association supporters of brothels.

    If you start a separate thread about the evils of prostitution, I’ll be the first to support your views. But I will not indulge your convoluted logic that either I’m with the Lal Masjid mullahs or I’m with the Aunties. I’m for the institutions doing what they are supposed to do. If they are not doing their job, then I’m for putting pressure on them to do their job and not to create another State within the State.

  240. Nasir says:
    May 2nd, 2007 7:43 pm

    [quote comment="46073"]I will not indulge your convoluted logic that either I’m with the Lal Masjid mullahs or I’m with the Aunties. [/quote]

    You know what “they” say…you are either *with* us or *against* us…any chance we can get the lal masjid guys (and their supporters here) to meet up with bush? Both deserve each other in any case.

  241. Nasir says:
    May 8th, 2007 2:59 pm

    Man thrashes lady teacher of QAU

    [quote]ISLAMABAD, May 7: A man thrashed a female associate professor of Quaid-i-Azam University (QAU) after entering into her office on Monday.

    According to details, a bearded man, who claimed to be an old student of the teacher, entered her office at around 9am and starting punching her and dragging her as she was working on the computer.

    Mehboob said he did it on divine order.
    [/quote]

    http://www.dawn.com/2007/05/08/nat19.htm

    Lal masjid style justice begins. Only a few days ago lal masjuid molvi called QAU a brothel.

  242. Rafiq Aslam says:
    May 18th, 2007 10:59 am

    In all the CJ drama this has been totally forgotten. No one is paying attention to this ticking time bomb.

  243. Ismail Hussein says:
    May 18th, 2007 1:19 pm

    As far as I can tell, the Lal masjid people won. They still have the library hostage and from Adil Najam’s reprot on his visit to Lal Masjid it seems that they have declared victory. Wait for this one to blow up even bigger.

  244. Nasir says:
    May 18th, 2007 12:53 pm

    Below is from Ayub Kahn’s diaries. This explains very well our dilemma re: Islam;

    مغربی پاکستان Ú©ÛŒ کابینÛ

  245. Kabish says:
    May 19th, 2007 9:15 pm

    This is what I think the government should do to counter this menace also known as ‘Las Masjid’.

    * The Federal Minister for Religious Affairs, Ejaz ul Haq who is in talks with the fanatics at the mosque, secures the release of ALL the kidnapped men, women and children.

    * He declares that the talks have failed on the issue of disarmement of Lal Masjid and them using any force to ask vdo shop owners to shut down. In front of National & International media, Ejaz ul Haq claims that the fanatics have threatened to carry out suicide bombings if gov doesn’t close all vdo, barber and similar shops in the country as well as break the ties with US. He further says they are stock piling illegal weapons and planning attacks in Pakistan , USA & Britain.

    * Ejaz ul Haq asks Interior Minister to interfere. Interior ministery asks Islamabad POLICE to get involved. 500 armed POLICE officers surround Lal Masjid and ask fanatics to disarm and surrender. POLICE holds the Masjid under siege, cutting off water, gas and electricity. Following day the Masjid is stormed and all of them either caught or killed.

    * The ones caught taken away to secret jails & brain washed to give them a taste of their own medicine. They should never ever be released.

    ALL this can be done so that the people inside Pakistan and outside are shown that this is the only way! End of the whole saga!

    This way, the GOV satisfies everyone this was a dangerous group of people and this was the only option left to do. All such zealots learn a lesson not to mess with the legal system. And People get on with their lives!

  246. Paul says:
    May 20th, 2007 11:17 am

    Can’t they all just commit plain old fashioned suicides, alone, in their lal masjids, instead of the now popular “suicide-attacks”? They would be doing a great service to society and our collective gene-pool.

    These people are threatening to kill innocent Pakistani lives if laws created by the people are enforced. Simply horrific.

    It’s funny how it is always the “youth” that goes and fights in wars and commits suicide attacks. These old goats sit around preaching their bull and they trap impressionable young people to do their biddings. Our society has failed these children. And now these children have grown to be society’s worst nightmare.

    Fires must be put out before they spread. I hope the army/police quells this upheaval sooner than later. The worst thing that could happen to Pakistan is talibanization.

  247. May 22nd, 2007 2:09 am

    [quote post="647"]Maulana Aziz announced that he would marry any woman who repented and gave up her immoral life. “I am now 46 years old and am ready to marry a woman who is between 35 to 40 years of age. If she promises to live a life of piety, I promise that I will never refer about her past life,â€

  248. Nasir says:
    May 22nd, 2007 7:33 pm

    Kharboozay say kharbooza rung pakarta hai..lal masjid swift justice spreads..

    Trader kidnapped

    LAKKI MARWAT, May 21: Five armed men kidnapped a local trader from his shop on the Dera-Bannu Road on Monday. Eyewitnesses said that Sahibzada Ayub Ahmad, said to be the spiritual leader of local Ahmadis, was dragged from his shop in the Shafi Market in Serai Naurang town. They said that the intruders had smashed the shop’s glass entrance.

    Local Taliban supporters had threatened Sahibzada Ayub and other Ahmadis living in the Nar Sahibzada Khost area near the town a couple of weeks ago either to ‘embrace Islam’ or leave the area, an official said.

    © The DAWN Group of Newspapers, 2007
    Source : http://www.dawn.com/2007/05/22/nat24.htm

  249. mazhar butt says:
    May 27th, 2007 6:43 pm

    If the Lal mosque people have called QAU a brothel we have to go by their allegation and try to find out the truth . After all we cannot just reject their allegation as if not fully true it does seem to contain a pinch of salt.

    When there is no justice in a country, someone would ultimately take law into his hands and implement justice. In the present case it is the Lal Masjid Mujahids,,,,they are not asking for wine and women and wagery ,,,they are simply asking for an Islamic system . I just cant understand why muslims, especially the so called liberals, are averse to it.

    As for Purdah and Burqa there is a sharp difference——the former is mandatory the other customary.

    As for the holy Quran and Hadith,,,I suppose every ordinary muslim if he reads and understand s the Quran can grasp its teaching in so far as ”code of life’ is concerned without going into the controversy of whether one Hadith is controversial or not. A comprehensive understanding of Quran is sufficient enough for any muslim with a reasonable and unbiased mind and commonsense to adjudge the status of the Ahadith.

  250. sohail ahmad says:
    May 28th, 2007 2:03 pm

    I need to agree with brother mazhar butt.
    actually we need to correct all the sides not one party.we should’t beleive so much in materialistic things because indeed they are not final and last.We should try to be natural and realistic then only we can get the real taste of life.It will be quite harsh but this is the way is

  251. Nasir says:
    May 28th, 2007 2:18 pm

    [quote comment="49045"]After all we cannot just reject their allegation as if not fully true it does seem to contain a pinch of salt.[/quote]

    Yes we can and we should and we must ask them to prove their allegations and if they can’t then 70 lashes or some such as per Islam.

  252. Disappointed Atif says:
    June 1st, 2007 9:31 am

    I am disappointed with us. I feel sorry for us. I dont want to say anything to any of you. We Pakistanis, all of us, either side, need to stop for a minute, or two minute or hour or no matter how long it takes, to look at ourselves and see if we can even respect ourselves for being part of this society, part of this culture of even part of this discussion. What are we and what have we become! Twisted facts, religious bipolar crazy maulvis, westernized HAVE IT ALL brown sahibs & stuck in the middle NO WHERE TO GO helpless Pakistanis. “her aik baat pe kehte ho ke tum ke to kia hai”. I hate our governement, I hate our political ameer ganwaar leaders & I despise this turban wearing, shalwar oonchee, lambee darhee, surmaa laga, women saving mofu. Who the heck they think they are to save a brothal woman by marrying her into a life time slavery. Its all crap. People, please .. please people. stop fighting, stop killing, stop destroying, we are free for so long just to be more in chains. Look at yourself & find peace within, with yourself, respect others, respect your law, whatever it is and then change it, improve it, build upon it. Change just yourself. Since when, did ISlam become the commodity of these muslims, Since when, did they get the get the authority to defy our government. Taqreeran choro, kaam karo, mehnat karo, himat karo. and leave the rest to Allah.

  253. sohail ahmad says:
    June 1st, 2007 10:15 am

    hey be a bit lenient,do something with wisdom,use your energies to correct the nation, by going out of them and hate them you can never get good results,and no doubt 1 person can change the fate of whole nation.
    Criticism should lead to something productive otherwise its a deluge of bitter and scornful words.

  254. Disappointed Atif says:
    June 1st, 2007 10:26 am

    [quote comment="50615"]hey be a bit lenient,do something with wisdom,use your energies to correct the nation, by going out of them and hate them you can never get good results,and no doubt 1 person can change the fate of whole nation.
    Criticism should lead to something productive otherwise its a deluge of bitter and scornful words.[/quote]
    My criticism should lead to “apna mahasba”.

  255. Nasir says:
    June 2nd, 2007 5:03 pm

    Conversations with History: Pakistan & Islamic Fundamentalism, with Khaled Ahmed

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4055993106979866951

  256. June 3rd, 2007 11:20 pm

    incidents like this are sparking debates like the one above and expose rifts between liberals and ‘fundos’.
    please realise that pakistan can exist as neither a secular state, nor a Taliban style one.

    the reason that we can eliminate religion from our government is that it is the only thing that we have in common and that can unify our nation. we have no common language, a multitude of cultures and races, secularism has failed at least twice, there is no nationalist fervour and there is no other thing that the entire nation has in common but that we share a common boundary.

    Talibanisation will fail only too obvoiusly. Lack of progress, redundancy, and once again, the majority of our nation will be alienated.

    i had a loooong reply, but keeping to the moderator’s rules, i posted it on my blog. please read on.

    for further reading :

    http://musti9211.blogspot.com/

  257. June 3rd, 2007 11:23 pm

    READ : “the reason that we CANT eliminate religion…”

    sorry for the typo

  258. mazhar butt says:
    June 5th, 2007 4:37 pm

    According to reports ,
    there were 48 cases of blasphemy and the majority of offenders consisted
    of 27 muslims whereas the accused christians were only 10 and Ahmadis 11.
    Where does it prove that blasphemy laws ‘persecute religious minorities in
    the name of religion.?’ The Parsi Petitioner (Mr Bhandara) whose petition was
    rejected on 8 May by the Assembly had
    not been realistic in his approach.

    As regards Lal Masjid, there is least to agree with authors statement that the
    protesters there are “”kidnapping, beating and threatening people in the name
    of religion.”" What religion? Not any religion, ofcourse. Muslims have every right
    to protect their religion in their domains. Dont you protect your children
    in a family, students in an educational institutions, commonace in a republic?
    In order to ensure discipline and the ‘writ’ you sometimes have to take harsh
    actions as well against your own people. Islam commands us to strictly
    observe that our children say their prayers when they reach an age of seven.
    If your own people do not observe the law then it becomes imperative to use force against
    them to make them abide by the law. It is moreso important when the rulers fail.
    Rulers have evidently failed in Pakistan in enforcing laws, Islamic or other wise,
    and therefore people have become so desperate as to take direct action. This is
    what is happening at the Lal Masjid. For those who do not agree with their action
    I suggest they leave this Islamic Republic of Pakistan and find some other
    place for themselves.

    Mazhar Butt

  259. Nasir says:
    June 5th, 2007 5:53 pm

    [quote comment="52035"]According to reports ,
    there were 48 cases of blasphemy and the majority of offenders consisted
    of 27 muslims whereas the accused christians were only 10 and Ahmadis 11.
    Where does it prove that blasphemy laws ‘persecute religious minorities in the name of religion.?’[/quote]

    What else does it prove? Just because some majority members are caught it does not mean the law does not persecute minorities.
    Also the number 48 is much lower in relation to the total population of majority while numbers 11 and 10 are much higher compared to the populations of Christians and Ahmadis. So both Christians and Ahmadis are still being persecuted at much higher rates according to their populations. In fact the number 48 is so low compared to the total population of majority that it is negligible.

    Secondly, its like you go and set fire to someone else’s house but eventually your own house catches fire as fire spreads and then you claim you did not want to burn others house and as a prove you show your own house on fire. Extremisms is like fire…it spreads and eventually it catches up with you. What goes round comes round – Jo dossroon kay leeay garah khodta hai khud usmay girta hai. Organizations like MQM and people like Bush are exactly the wrath of God for those who either instigated terrorism against minorities or gave it their quite support.

  260. June 9th, 2007 8:37 am

    i would only say at this point that if you will put pressure on something it will break. Chaos will only result in casualty.I do agree that Blasphemy is exceeding in the society that calls itself Islamic in nature.But victimizing that group of people who have no authority in government is wrong. Killing aimlessly is wrong. If you really want to eradicate evil from the society do it through knowledge. Provide reason through knowledge not by bombs.

  261. mazhar butt says:
    June 9th, 2007 11:17 am

    >What else does it prove? Just because some majority members are caught it does not mean the law does not persecute minorities.

  262. mazhar butt says:
    June 9th, 2007 3:41 pm

    Mysteriously only a tip of my earlier comment showed up,,,,,,,where has the bulk gone??

    Anyway, let me restate ,,,,,,

    The minorities should learn to behave and refrain from passing derogatory remarks or insults to the majority’s beliefs and feelings. The blasphemers are just like someone staying with a family in a house and abusing their ancestors under the very nose of the house members. What treatment will the house-member give him could be easily conceived. More analogies to this situation could be drawn from various institutions in a gregarious society, be it muslim or otherwise. Even if some one uses billingsgate here he is surely going to be thrown out of this club! Then why do the minorities grumble about the ;blasphemy laws”? What harm are they to the more liberal kind of so-called muslims who stoop so low as to malign their own posterity and fathers??Shame on them!

  263. mazhar butt says:
    June 9th, 2007 3:57 pm

    >7:84. Say: Every one acts according to his manner; but your Lord best knows who is best guided in the path.

    Someone has quoted these and some other Quranic verses here as a didactic move toward muslims. He has his own interpretation and understanding of these verses. But I think these are out of context and not appropriately quoted for this ocassion. The truth is that there is no compulsion in religion but this probably applies in case of converting non-muslims to Islam. There IS compulsion in an Islamic society to abide by the canonic law and live a life of muslim chastity and style.Simple to imagine that if every one in a muslim society goes his own way and is not bound by the injunctions of Islam
    directly or impliedly the whole society is doomed to go haywire. Even in all kinds of secular institution one is bound to comply with its rules and regulations so much so that you are prohibited to enter a club without proper dress or loaded with your cell phones, cameras , cigars, stc Then why all this grumpiness and grouchiness toward Islam? This is because the muslims do not read or understand the laws of their own religion and merely try to act on surmises and conjecturs to a lesser or more extent.

    And it’s not correct to state that God has allowed everyone,,,,,,,,,

  264. mazhar butt says:
    June 9th, 2007 4:12 pm

    contd,,,,,,,,
    And it’s not correct to assert that God has allowed everyone to do whatever he wants . If it were so there would not exist a society,,,,,a society muslim or otherwise. There are many religion in the world. The only point which appears to relate is that muslims should not interfere in the religious matters of other religions. Conversely, the muslims also expect people of other religions not to fiddle with their beliefs. Enters God after that stating ”your Lord best knows who is best guided in the path.”"
    Also, it is a matter of simple common sense that if the muslim community is taken analogous to a university and its students as it members then how on earth can we judge the capabilities of each and every student without their achievments in the tests or exams? Who is the Judge here? the Judge(the Chancellor, for example) just can’t leave every student to his own and allow him to destroy the discipline of his institution. Similar is the case with religion.Every follower of a religion is bound by its laws and there cannot be two views about it. If someone violates the law he’ll be subjected to disciplinary or punitive action. I think this is the reason there was almost no crime in the Taliban regime nor it is noteworthy in some other Islamic states and kingdoms.

  265. Nazir says:
    June 12th, 2007 12:26 pm

    Here is the reality of Blasphemy law;

    Abuse of blasphemy laws: ‘Police register blasphemy cases under pressure’

    [quote]
    LAHORE: Capital City Police Officer (CCPO) additional inspector general Malik Muhammad Iqbal said on Sunday in many cases the people with religious sentiments pressure police to lodge the blasphemy cases.

    He said no doubt people have been taking advantage of the blasphemy law, but this couldn’t be stopped without controlling religious sentiments.

    On the other side, the human rights organisations across the country have repeatedly been demanding the annulment of the law.

    From May 9 to June 9 three incidents have been reported in the press in which public pressure had been allegedly used to misuse blasphemy laws mainly to grab the property of the accused persons. The cases were lodged under public pressure claiming that the alleged blasphemers have hurted their sentiments.

    In a latest incident that happened on June 8 the Shahdara Town police registered a blasphemy case against a mentally- handicapped person Nadir Ali for allegedly burning his house, which had a few copies of the Holy Quran on June 9. The case was registered against Nadir under Section 295-B of the Pakistan Penal Code.

    Several neighbours alleged the complainant Shahid wanted to grab Nadir’s property. The police officer concerned told Daily Times the police had registered an FIR against Nadir under the public pressure. He admitted that there were reports that Shahid had wanted to grab Nadir’s property.
    [/quote]

  266. Nazir says:
    June 12th, 2007 12:26 pm

    Here is the reality of Blasphemy law;

    Abuse of blasphemy laws: ‘Police register blasphemy cases under pressure’

    [quote]
    LAHORE: Capital City Police Officer (CCPO) additional inspector general Malik Muhammad Iqbal said on Sunday in many cases the people with religious sentiments pressure police to lodge the blasphemy cases.

    He said no doubt people have been taking advantage of the blasphemy law, but this couldn’t be stopped without controlling religious sentiments.

    On the other side, the human rights organisations across the country have repeatedly been demanding the annulment of the law.

    From May 9 to June 9 three incidents have been reported in the press in which public pressure had been allegedly used to misuse blasphemy laws mainly to grab the property of the accused persons. The cases were lodged under public pressure claiming that the alleged blasphemers have hurted their sentiments.

    In a latest incident that happened on June 8 the Shahdara Town police registered a blasphemy case against a mentally- handicapped person Nadir Ali for allegedly burning his house, which had a few copies of the Holy Quran on June 9. The case was registered against Nadir under Section 295-B of the Pakistan Penal Code.

    Several neighbours alleged the complainant Shahid wanted to grab Nadir’s property. The police officer concerned told Daily Times the police had registered an FIR against Nadir under the public pressure. He admitted that there were reports that Shahid had wanted to grab Nadir’s property.
    [/quote]

    http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=20076\11\story_11-6-2007_pg13_4

  267. Kruman says:
    June 12th, 2007 7:48 pm

    Coming back to the original topic, it is well-known in Pakistan that mullahs are the B team of the army.

    It was all concocted in the the presidential palace. This issue will disappear the day the masters in the presidency pull the strings.

  268. mazhar butt says:
    June 12th, 2007 8:01 pm

    My dear, you seem to be quite a simpleton believing in police! Nearly all the crime in the country is directly related to our police system. Then why only blame the blasphemy laws? Minor crimes are turned into major crimes and vice versa by whom? The police ,ofcourse. The police is capable of giving any hue to any crime if you grease their palms or have connections. Just have a look around yourself to discover the excesses of police. Take heart to visit a jail to see how innocent people are rotting there,,,,all due to misuse and abuse of the process of law.You cannot blame the laws,,,,not the blasphemy law, its how it is implemented upon by the guardians of law and order.

  269. mazhar butt says:
    June 12th, 2007 8:19 pm

    As for the cited incidence you don’t have to worry about the ‘mentally retarded’ accused,,,,,mental retardation is a fantastic defense taken by such accused in such cases! In case the accused does turn out to be ”mad” he would certainly be discharged and pass the rest of his life in the lunatic asylum at the state’s expense !

    Recently, I suffered from the misuse and abuse of the process of law. Some strangers /goons purporting to have purchased the goodwill/rented shop where my son is running his computer business gushed in and threatened him to vacate the shop failing which they would do this and that. Instead of picking a fight he called police at 15 for help. The police arrived there within 10 minutes. I was at my house at that time. After receiving a phone from my son that there was trouble at the shop I rushed to the shop. When I reached there the police was already on its way to the nearby police station along with the goons driving a new corolla and my son in his own car. At the police station the duty officer instead of registering an FIR against the hooligans or taking any action against them treated them with great hospitality as they were their brethren ! On the contrary he threatened us( me inclusive who was not even present at the time of the scene)that he would lock us up. At this I got worried and had to call a friend DSP for rescue. After I used my influence the hostilities of the duty officer subsided and he requested me to let go. I refused demanding that legal action should be taken against the intruders. At this the duty officer handed me over a notice for signatures. When I read it it was nothing else but a police complaint against me under sections 107/117 CRPC for disturbing peace and requiring bond for good behaviour ! On th date imprinted on the notice me and my son appeared before the area magistrate who was only willing to ‘release’ us upon furnishing a bond for Rs 50000 each !

  270. mazhar butt says:
    June 13th, 2007 2:29 am

    contd,,,,,,,,,,

    At this I told the magistrate that as I was a retired person the bond money is too exorbitant and cannot be paid by me. The opposite party also pleaded for reduction in security value. Ath the same time I also told the magistrate that the police had filed a false complaint against me and my son, me not being at the time of scene whereas my son being at the shop and hadnt gone to ”fight” anyone anywhere and it was he who had called 15 for help. But the ‘stiff neck” magistrate would not listen to anything. However , at the plea of both the parties he reduced the security bond value to Rs 20000 each. This amount still being exorbitant as the law requires the magistrate to impose bond value according to ‘his means”, and Rs 20000 by no means coincides with the ‘means ‘ of a retired middle aged person who is moreover innocent. Anyway, I deposited the security and heaved a sigh of relief though a temporary one. Now I have to appear before the magistrate twice or thrice a month on the appointed date just to find that I reach his office at 8.30 am and he turns up at 12 noon ! Then the proceedings take about 2 hours, I appear before the Mr Brown,who ticks my attendance and gives a ” short truculent and threatening speech” and then tells us to buzz off and appear again on the next date! How long will this process continue I am not sure but evidently it is a pain in the neck.A punishment for doing no offense, a gift of the police and our existing police and legal system! It makes me wonder how would a person of smaller or lesser means or no means would be able topay the security in such a case ? Undoubtedly if he doesnt pay the security he’d straightaway go to jail to rot for indefinite period or until he pays to the lawyer and deposits the bond. someone told me that hundred s of innocent people are rotting in jail on such similar charges and for not being able to submit security or hire a lawyer

    AND,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

    Mullahs may be the B team of the army but could you tell me how many of the laws promulgated during ZABhutto and Zia have been taken back after their govts were over??

  271. Nazir says:
    June 16th, 2007 11:39 pm

    Pakistan: USCIRF Decries Abuse of Blasphemy Laws, Apostasy Bill

    [quote]
    WASHINGTONâ€

  272. ayesha sajid says:
    June 17th, 2007 4:44 pm

    The Lal Masjid administration has issued a fatwa against a magazine called Octane for publishing the …. according to them … pictures of Adam and Eve… for us Hazrat Aadam and Ama Hawwa.
    Now the Poor Octane editorial board has i think issued a clarification and offered an apology for offending the sensitivities of the clerics. The Magazine says it was more symbolic then reall life depiction. The clerics have not clarified if it was the scantily clad photograpsh with the name ADAM AND EVE … THE APPLE … BONE OF CONTENTION … that offended them or the pictures depicting two holy figures .
    POINT …. does it deserve a death warrant ?

  273. mazhar butt says:
    June 18th, 2007 4:14 pm

    The editorial board of Octane consists of Muslims and all Muslims know that visual mimicry of Prophets is untenable with the Muslims. It’s also known to every Muslim that such mimicry or mockery is forbidden in Islam and Muslims get highly offended at such things. The Octane editors already know that the whole Muslim world vehemently protested against blasphemous Danish caricatures in the past. Therefore, it proves that the Octane published those fancy picture of Adam and Eve with the intention of disturbing feelings of Muslims. When an ordinary person can sue anyone for defamation and libel why Muslims be supposed to hold back from prosecuting culprit of mockery of their religious personalities and that too in an islamic State? The fatwa of death for such unscrupulous and deliberate act by Muslims against Muslims is thus ipso facto justified. What the socalled ”moderately enlightened ‘ and ‘westernized’ muslims should learn is respect for or refrain from disturbing the feelings of others, be it Muslims or people of any other religion, race or creed. There is a saying in Urdu that if you even call a KANA a Kana he will mind it,,,,,,,,In this case the Muslims have 6X6 eyesight !

  274. Peacenik says:
    June 18th, 2007 10:06 pm

    Now, now Mazhar, why do Muslims get so offended so easily? And why do we get offended by inconsequential things (please do not have a coronary here…but why is that Islam hamesha khatrey mein hota hai?). Can we please try and behave in a less volatile and more rational manner. Frankly, I think Islam is harmed more by the fulminations of people like Sher Afgan and Ejaz Ul-Haq, and not to forget the whackos in lal Masjid. And before you start denouncing me a kafir, I consider myself a Muslim….just not a foaming at the mouth one.

  275. ayesha sajid says:
    June 19th, 2007 5:43 am

    Peacenik, sorry to say unless you are foaming at the mouth and ready to keel everything that goes against your version of Islam, you are with due apologies not a true muslim.
    If you want to discuss things peacefully, try to make the other person see things in a rational way , maybe try to convince him that you MAY have a point also , you are not a good muslim.
    *wink*
    The lady hugged her 70+ year old instructor , keeel her !!
    The lady is addressing public rallys , keeel her !!
    The lady is supposed to be running a brothel, dont investigate and let the law take its course , just keeel her !!

  276. Nazir says:
    June 19th, 2007 6:12 am

    Peacenik, you are from MPACUK forum?

  277. Nazir says:
    June 19th, 2007 6:51 am

    ayesha, actually its better ;) than that. Blame someone of blasphemy, keeel him and no one would care…

  278. Peacenik says:
    June 19th, 2007 8:00 am

    Nope, Nazir. I only inhabit this forum.
    I agree with you, if you want someone’s property, accuse him of blasbhemy, keel him, then grab the property (recent ongoing case in Lahore).

  279. Nazir says:
    June 19th, 2007 9:08 pm

    Those supporting Blasphemy laws, can they answer the following?

    1. What is the definition of blasphemy? Hopefully one that the rest of us can relate to, to some degree.

    2. How can one differentiate between objective discussion on religion and something that is blasphemy?

    3. If say a Hindu kills a Muslim on pretext (just as an example) that the Muslim did not respect Cows as holy or considered Hindu gods as mere idols and thus committed blasphemy, or if a Christian kills a Muslim on pretext (as an example) that the Muslim did not consider Jesus son of god thus reducing his status to mere human and hence committed blasphemy, how acceptable would those killings be to Muslims?

    4. What about those claimants of prophethood who Muslims do not consider Prophets but others do – for instance a prophet from aborigines or from Native American but could be others too? Will Muslims respect them and failing that will agree to be killed? If not why are followers of all other religions (who do not consider Prophet of Islam a Prophet) expected to respect him under pain of punishment?

    I am merely trying to understand the issues surrounding blasphemy and not intending to offend anyone’s beliefs. I think these are important questions and need to be answered for clarity.

  280. ayesha sajid says:
    June 20th, 2007 6:58 am

    Nazir , you have raised some brilliant points and even i would like answers to the pertaining questions. These issues and thier answers would be so strongly linked to how Islam is percieved by non muslims and what kind of message we as muslims are relating to the rest of the world.

    The greatest way to spread Islam is through personel example but i am sorry to say the way muslims are acting and behaving in most parts of the world is NOT the best example hence the mis conception about our relegion…..
    Inspite of that the largest conversion to any relegion these days is to Islam but sadly our clergy has nothing to do with it.
    Ask any revertee and they will tell you that it is through self research that they have reached the fundamentals of Islam and understood it to be totally opposite to what the general impression across the globe of Islam is.

  281. Nazir says:
    June 21st, 2007 3:58 pm

    Lal masjid maulan says;

    غازی عبدالرشید کا Ú©Û

  282. June 22nd, 2007 7:03 am


    Now, now Mazhar, why do Muslims get so offended so easily?

    Blasphemous laws are not associated with Islam only. Bible has verses in both Old and New Testament to kill someone if he/she abuses Bible verse for instance Exodus 22:20 clearly permits to kill anyone who doesn’t obey God of Bible followers. We usually don’t find such instances in real life because bible followers themselves are the biggest offenders of their own religion.

    Unlike Christians/jews etc, Muslims take their religion more seriously than anyone else. The importance of relgiion for a muslim is so much that a hadith in which Prophet(saw) said that a Person can’t be a muslim unless He dont consider the prophet(saw) more dearer than parents or any other loved ones is the clear example of worth of religion in a muslim’s life.

    As far as Octane’s lame attempt and they saying its only in Islam which doesn’t allow making sketches of Religious people like Prophets, one should read the 2nd law of Ten Commandments which says Do not make an image or any likeness of what is in the heavens above.. So blaming only Islam just because west does same is not a mature sign at all. When sources are available then there shouldnt be no excuse for ignorance.

  283. SA says:
    June 22nd, 2007 10:33 am

    To answer JK………they dont only have dandahs, they are fully armed!!! People who have been inside narrate that not only do they have guns and other ammunition, but they are quite technologically updated with laptops & webcams etc. They had told the army very openly to “bring it on” and I bet they were not planning on using just bamboo sticks!!!

  284. Akif Nizam says:
    June 22nd, 2007 10:38 am

    Adnaan, there is no place in a civil society for lynching people just because they said something offensive. You and I both say a lot of things that is offensive to someone out there.

    The reason why the draconian punishments from the Bible are not instituted in today’s Chrisitan and Jewish world is because they have moved past it. They don’t hearken back to the Biblical times as the ideal time and place to be. Rather they concentrate on making this world a better place for themselves.

    Muslim societies, on the other hand, still try to find all their answers in centuries old traditions and deny participation in the larger civil society and the modern rules of engagement and discourse. As a result, they resemble the very societies they hold as ideal, which is quite ironic and unfortunate.

  285. Hamza says:
    June 22nd, 2007 8:13 pm

    Now the Lal Masjid bridage have kidnapped up to 9 Chinese nationals. Maybe, just maybe, given that China is our last reliable ally, the army might finally storm this place and end this charade once and for all.

    http://www.thenews.com.pk/top_story_detail.asp?Id=8625

  286. June 23rd, 2007 1:58 am

    Akif, what are you trying to say, I already mentinoed it. Naak ko sedha pakro ya peechay say, fact is that they christiams THEMSELVES rejected their own relgiion. Calling it that they did for betterment is a very foolish statment as world still witness the christian and jewish extreemism from one from and other.

    We muslims are bound to follow our Quranic laws and we are not like christians and these are not century old traditions. If you consider Quran is a backward book and Islam is not compatible with Modern world then I can just laugh at your ignorance about Islam. THough this is not surprising as liberals and seculars learnt their Islam from western sources so they gotta be like you to teach others what should be Islam for todays muslims.

  287. June 23rd, 2007 2:11 am

    kidnapping chinese ladies is really insane thing. I did support their other point of views like closing of brothel of liberal’s aunty shamim,nilifar bakhriat and others but this is something which I wouldnt support at all.

    This is not clear yet why were they doing. let’s see what comes out.

    And those who are worrying about Pak-China relationship, Chian already has left us long time back due to our USA-Licking policies. What dictator did to take advantage of friendship for Pakistan? he was rather busy in selling his book and promoting his pathetic liberal agenda. China is rather getting inclined towards India,the 2nd largest econ in Asia.

  288. Saad says:
    June 23rd, 2007 3:48 am

    China has certainly not left us (certainly not militarily). A very casual look at almost all of our current weapons induction programs will be enough for that.

  289. Nazir says:
    June 23rd, 2007 6:25 am

    If use of violence in matters of religion is justified then George W should be commended for his crusade against Muslims.

    My own feeling is GW and Mullahs were both made for each other.

  290. June 23rd, 2007 6:38 am


    My own feeling is GW and Mullahs were both made for each other.

    and Irony is that same GWBush gives order to Imam of Liberals Mr.Musharraf. as I said in other post that liberals of world are always fooled by right wing extreemist of world. Whether they are christians,jews,muslims or hindu.

  291. Mishal says:
    June 27th, 2007 2:09 am

    [The editorial board of Octane consists of Muslims and all Muslims know that visual mimicry of Prophets is untenable with the Muslims. It’s also known to every Muslim that such mimicry or mockery is forbidden in Islam and Muslims get highly offended at such things... When an ordinary person can sue anyone for defamation and libel why Muslims be supposed to hold back from prosecuting culprit of mockery of their religious personalities and that too in an islamic State? The fatwa of death for such unscrupulous and deliberate act by Muslims against Muslims is thus ipso facto justified]

    So when will we be hearing a fatwa against all Christians for “visual mimicry” of Jesus Christ that they do in their houses and churches by having statues made of Christ?? Because isn’t Jesus Christ one of the Prophets too?

  292. Reluctant Expatriate says:
    June 30th, 2007 2:59 pm

    The Lal Masjid episodes and removal of chief justice reminds me of the events of Iran in 1979. The secular Iranians defied the Shah and his secret service, and brought a revolution. However, the Mullahs of Iran took advantage of the situation and took over Iran from the democratic and secular forces.

    It appears to me that the dictator Musharraf and his army generals and chamchas like shaukat aziz will be soon toppled by the movement for democracy started accidentally by the sacking of the chief justice. This movement is led by democratic minded, university educated, secular muslims. However, in the end these forces will be taken over by the Mullahs who control the Lal Masjid and alike. These Mullahs will use the name of the Islam to destroy Pakistan and make it a Taliban state where the real Islam will not be practiced. Fifty percent of the population (women) will be deprived of thie basic rights as ordained in the Quran and the constitution.

  293. Shiraz says:
    July 3rd, 2007 9:59 am

    Excerpt from “The National Mindset” by Ardeshar Cowasjee
    http://www.dawn.com/weekly/cowas/cowas.htm

    “Professor Doctor Manzoor Ahmed, Rector of the International Islamic University, Islamabad, entitled ‘Reflections on our Mindset.’ Light has dawned, thanks to the good Rector.

    He generously puts down the problems confronted by Pakistani society partly to our participation in the global ambience and partly to “our own cultural underpinnings.

  294. mazhar butt says:
    July 4th, 2007 2:08 am

    Peacenik >>>.

    As a Muslim you seem to forget that we are supposed to have blind faith in our religion, especially the holy Quran and its teachings. If someone doubts it or question its status, as is the case with of some surahs not yet clearly understood due to the ‘incapacity of human brain’, he is not following his religion. If a Christian says ‘Jesus is God” he may be wrong but he is right if he sticks to his belief. Similarly it goes on with followers of other religions. However, a few muslims unfortunately feel pride in mocking their own religion and criticizing it just for the sake of criticism. This is where they are wrong. Instead of trying to learn their own religion they blindly follow ”personalities’ and are overwhelmed with whatever they hear from their mouths. Instead they ought to ponder and learn by themselves. Often It’s a matter of simple commonsense. As for intolerance to criticism I may add that Muslims usually do not like criticism of their religion or beliefs. No one does.Not even a christian or a Hindu for that purpose. The criticism you find in the West is mainly due to their socio-cultural structure. Change that and they would stop criticizing. Martin Luther criticized and brought revolution in the Christian world. Only healthy criticism is tolerable not abusive and slanderous one which please note.

  295. mazhar butt says:
    July 4th, 2007 2:32 pm

    Nazir

    The answer to your questions on ‘blasphemy’ is : Don’t talk ill about others lest they do the same to you”. ”To them their religion to us ours”

    Blasphemy is talking ill of someones held in esteem by someone. So, better watch your ‘tongue’ while uttering about others.If abusing or laying aspersions on someones parents or women folk could provoke one to cause hellfire then you could well imagine what may happen if someone derogates or deprecates someones prophet or ideal personality,
    Hindus do kill muslims who slaughter cows in their territories,,,,,,,,read history.
    Jesus was the son of God is Christian belief. A good Muslim is not expected to argue about that with Christians unless he wants to get himself in trouble.
    There is no room for rubbish talk in Islam and the way you venture to criticize Islam behind back is simple ignorance which may culminate in ‘blasphemy’ if not checked at an early stage.

    Learn more about Islam from Women,,,Syesha Sajid in this case…..I quite agree with her thoughts in the subject matter.
    good luck !

  296. mazhar butt says:
    July 4th, 2007 2:36 pm

    Nazir

    The answer to your questions on ‘blasphemy’ is : Don’t talk ill about others lest they do the same to you

  297. Adnan Siddiqi says:
    July 6th, 2007 3:04 pm

    @mishal, image sketching of religious celebrities like Prophets is prohibited in christianity and Judaism too,you can confirm it in Ten commandments.

  298. Nazir says:
    July 6th, 2007 5:14 pm

    [quote]The answer to your questions on ‘blasphemy’ is : Don’t talk ill about others lest they do the same to you

  299. Akif Nizam says:
    July 6th, 2007 5:46 pm

    Nazir, nice post !

  300. JAWAD says:
    July 10th, 2007 1:10 am

    This could only have ended this way. What starts with violence can only end with violence.

  301. KAWA1 says:
    July 11th, 2007 1:11 am

    The Lal Masjid drama finally came to an end with a tragic note for loss of lives. I am still trying to figure out who to blame for the episode and in this case it’s hard to take sides. The maulana was definitely a mad man hell bent on killing himself and his supporters. Musharraf on the other hand had to do something as things were getting out of control and finally he did what he does best with his people.
    Watching the drama unfold was painful, just knowing there were women and kids inside that could be hurt and the entire thing was tragic.

    However after three days of turmoil, I finally had a comic day (I wish every tragedy could end in laughter) when Geo on 9 o’clock news released a headline news with Sher-e-Karachi Mr.Altaf Hussain congratulating Pakistan Army for completing a successful mission against armed miscreants who had used fire power against army!

    Hopefully he can extend a similar Mubarik not far in the near future when Army Jawans launch a similar campaign against his armed commanders in Karachi within one year of Mush departure. Don’t have a crystal ball but for this prediction, just look at the wall… the writing is there!!

  302. Dr.Bashir Ahmad(kashmir) says:
    July 14th, 2007 5:17 am

    It is really an event of great misfortune for the whole islamic world and also it reveals the ‘FIRAUNI’ mentality of musharraf.
    May ALLAH(swt) give him either hidayah or otherwise lift him from this earth.

  303. July 14th, 2007 5:44 am
  304. reality says:
    July 14th, 2007 8:41 am

    visit http://www.millat.com to get information about lal masjid

  305. KAWA1 says:
    July 18th, 2007 9:59 pm

    Difference Between Mullah Militancy and MQM Militancy?
    And Why The Use of Force on One While Justifying The Other?

    Imran Khan along with millions of Pakistanis are trying to find an answer to this dilemma. Unfortunately this question is not being raised by Pakistani media or other forums for scare of reprisal by this fascist party, MQM. The history of this party is known to all and is responsible for hundreds of assassinations on the orders of it’s leader Altaf Hussain.

    Today we face a greater question, when we find the military dictator (who unfortunately is the President of our country) supporting this terrorism and using this party for slaughtering innocent people in order to ensure his own survival.

    In the Lal masjid’s case, not a single bullet was fired by the Mullah’s to instigate a confrontation. Yes, they were armed but did not draw first blood.

    In MQM’s case on March 12th in Karachi, on the orders of Altaf Hussain the party killers started indiscriminate firing on innocent people who were there to greet the Chief Justice in Karachi. The Law Enforcing Agencies stood-by and watched the slaughter and in fact allowed their own vehicles to the party sector in charges to move ammunition? The Corps Commander, Karachi played golf and Musharraf stated that we would fight power with power!

    For all those who are so concerned about madrassa’s and Islamic militancy, it is hard to swallow how the very same people justify or keep mum on the March 12th massacre by MQM while condemning the mullah’s of Lal masjid for militancy and applauding the Army commando action???

  306. KAWA1 says:
    July 18th, 2007 11:55 pm

    It was worth listening to General (R) Aslam Baig about the current military action in Waziristan on Dr Shahid show. He said that these were battle hardened people who have never lost a battle nor ever given up. The British Empire tried and failed, the Russians tried for 11 years and ultimately lost, U.S and NATO are frustrated and ultimately will walk away.

    Our stupid commando turned President does not realize that he has involved the Pak Army jawans in this mad expedition to conquer the unconquerable and make them our enemies for ever – long after the white man has left the area, we will face these warriors who have the capability to strike deep inside Pakistan. The current funding $$$$ will vaporize as happened after the Afghan War. I wonder where the money will come for Armed Forces when the West pulls the plug.

    I hope that Musharraf realizes that the time has come for him to walk away. The senate Chairman should take over as an interim President, hold free elections in the country and let genuine political leadership hold negotiations with the tribal leaders and negotiate with the West.

    If he looses this opportunity, we are heading to a total disaster and we will face the consequences for years and years to come. What we see now is just the tip of the ice burg!!

  307. Kruman says:
    July 19th, 2007 12:55 am

    KAWA1,
    Good post! Keep it up!

    From another perspective, army has encroached on civilian institutions including that of presidency. If Lal masjid mullas committed a sin by taking over land near a nallah, how about the army that has encroached on every inch of the bloody civilians’ domain.

  308. Kruman says:
    July 19th, 2007 1:56 am

    Eric Margolis put it nicely, “Musharraf, seems prepared to see his nation destroyed rather than lose his grip on power.”

    General Beg brought good points. Sadly, Mush does not care about the future of the country, he only cares about extending his rule at the expense of the country.

    http://www.ericmargolis.com/archives/2007/05/time_to_save_pa.php

  309. KAWA1 says:
    July 19th, 2007 7:15 pm

    Who is the Biggest Qabza group of Pakistan;
    PAKISTAN ARMY

    For all those who live in Karachi, this is no news. In the last 15 years, we have all seen how various Station Commanders, Malir Cantonment encroached additional land in order to expand the Cantonment boundaries and subsequently put the lots up on sale for Army personnel on simple typed Station HQ letter heads giving them 99 years ownership rights.

    The modus operandi of this “operation silent” has been simple and same has happened in several other cities of Pakistan. I know about Karachi as I live there and have seen how this takes place. In the middle of the night, have the jawans to put up a post 200 yards into state land and once that was done, demolish the original post/gate (entrance to Malir Cantt). Over the years I have personally seen this happen so many times that it literally became a joke in the area. I once spoke to the D.C Malir (whom I knew) and he was extremely candid stating that there was nothing he or his predecessors could do about it.

    Today Malir Cantt has a qabza over 1000′s of additional acreage on all four sides;
    Towards Drig Road, they have extended at least two furlongs in, almost touching the Airport Colony (In fact, you can say that they have houses inside Airport Colony now).
    On the Super Highway side, they extended at least one mile and I have seen the gate demolished and new one built on state land at least 7 times over the period (I used that entrance weekly from my small piece of agriculture land next to super highway as a passage to DHA rather than use Sohrab Goth).
    On the race course side towards Gulshan Iqbal, same thing and today the Cantonment is almost next to race course grounds. This was prime land and in mid 80′s after the qabza, it was alloted to all officers (retd and serving) who wore red stripes. I know two Brigediers who were lucky to get those and still reside there (Good men but they do not know better and have many reasons to justify their conscious about it)
    The fourth boundary which got extended was all into agricultural lands (99% owned by moquami Sindhis). These were barani agriculture lands on 30 years lease and some were coming in their families since the British times. every 30 years the family would extend their lease by paying a fee for next 30 years and generations had lived by growing agriculture produce. they made their money mostly during and after rainy season as the lands had no water and they did not have enough resources to tap into the natural water underground reservoirs.
    These people were pushed out one after the other and same lands were alloted to Majors, Colonels, brig’s and generals, again on Station HQ letterheads. The Army junta brought in their equipment on cheap rentals from military supplies and drilled tube wells. Today most of these farms are being used as resorts for Karachi residents at the rate of $7000 a day on weekends and people are paying as that is the only safe place where families could go with piece of mind (security provided by cantt).

    Now what happened to the poor Sindhi who toiled that land for ever. They were evicted and their are still 1000′s of applications with DC Malir, Muktharkar, Tappadar from these people with no relief nor will they ever get one.

    I can give you several facts about D.H.A extension Lahore and how land was grabbed from the miserable poor people by the hand handedness of the present Corps commander, Lahore, but we all know that. Those who choose to ignore it or avoid talking about it TODAY is because they support Mush and will choose to stay silent, others are those who are part of this qabza group with strong connections within the military and are reaping dividends. They did so yesterday and will again in future. Same people will cry wolf tomorrow when another General usurps power and everyone who is silent today will wake up to reality they had already known. Same mental phenomenon, where they see Lal masjid ammunition and scream bloody murder but looked aside on March 12th when Karachi was blazing with gun fire! Did anyone see that or was everyone watching CNN or Fox TV that day?

    AS FOR LAL MASJID, THE MAULVI’S WERE REAL BAD PEOPLE. HOW DARE THEY DO QABZA ON A SINGLE PROPERTY OWNED BY CDA. THAT IS SO NOT RIGHT!

    BUT ALAS, WE THE PEOPLE OF PAKISTAN ARE STUPID AND EASILY EXPLOITED AND DECEIVED. YOU CAN SEE IT ON THIS FORUM..

  310. usman rehman says:
    October 3rd, 2007 4:40 am

    This is end of a country or a state when there is a situation like this.Mushrf only want to follow the American ordered as he did.He is only acting likke a pupit. He didnot have his own opinon about that matter.Now he have tochange his behaviour his tone for their existance

  311. Zubair Ahmed says:
    December 2nd, 2007 7:39 am

    It was a right step to root out immorality form the society to marry and provite shelter to the women who committed sexual immorality. Now in this modern age who can marry? Movi Aziz is apprecited that he had taken such a step to romove immorality from the society.

  312. Dewana Phir Say says:
    February 26th, 2008 7:42 pm

    Can we consider something like this;

    Turkey in radical revision of Islamic texts

    ‘Reformation’

    Commentators say the very theology of Islam is being reinterpreted in order to effect a radical renewal of the religion.

    Its supporters say the spirit of logic and reason inherent in Islam at its foundation 1,400 years ago are being rediscovered. Some believe it could represent the beginning of a reformation in the religion.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7264903.stm

  313. Ahmed says:
    May 3rd, 2008 4:46 am

    As it is our country is being plagued by extremists and fanatics. They have been growing for more than 20 years. They had crossed their limit when the people of Lal Masjid started taking justice into their own hands, having their women go out with sticks and imposing their ideologies on the locals. Islam was never meant to be imposed on anyone, and once these people started doing that, they became extremists. They were given enough notices and warnings to stop their oppressive behaviour but they didn’t listen. Naturally when words don’t matter anymore it is force that solves a situation. That’s what happened here, I remember everyone wanted Musharraf to stop them by force.

  314. Aamir Ali says:
    October 27th, 2008 3:29 pm

    I am glad at least this problem is over. Musharaf sure fixed these folks good!

  315. PakistanPal says:
    November 24th, 2008 4:06 am

    I think anyone and everyone should have a right to protest and present their opinion. But no one should have the right to make people hostages and display arms and ammunition.

    Lal Masjid episode was a dark moment in the history of Pakistan. The dark part is how this Masjid turned into a terrorist camp… not how it was brought under control using force.

    The two maulvi brothers who had taken control of the mosque and were giving refuge to trained terrorists deserve to be hanged or executed. They were the ones responsible for endangering the lives of so many people including women and children…

    Army went in there to recover the hostages and capture terrorists and that is exactly what it did. Extremism and Fundamentalism is all about enforcing your personal opinions and beliefs on others… and that is what many of our mullahs are doing. This causes revulsion towards religion in this case Islam… so these mullahs are actually pushing people away from Islam hence they should be declared anti-Islam and charged under the Hudood ordinance as well as under state law for being anti-state.

  316. Taha says:
    April 6th, 2009 2:55 am

    He solved this problem very well.s Pakistan needs him again.

  317. lidaliqa says:
    April 24th, 2009 1:18 pm

    Musharraf come back !!!!!!!!!!!!
    We need you.
    Hell with Democracy..Pakistan’s existense is at stake.

    The other day Shanakht art show was cancelled by PPP supporters in Karachi.
    During Musharraf thins would not have happened.

  318. Akshaye says:
    July 22nd, 2009 7:06 am

    is this a Saddistic nature of the Mawlana? Will he be able to marry all the hundreds of women who are forced to get into prostitution in a torn Pakistan?

    There should be more Family Protection and Child Abuse association to care and shelter for these persons. The mawlana is seeing the agony and problems of these poor women with much more a lustful eyes than trying to solve their problems! Hope, I am wrong?

    Only the wounded person can understand another wounded person and let’s women be encouraged to participate in the development in Pakistan.

  319. M A Qadir says:
    December 28th, 2009 1:37 am

    La Ilaha Ilalah Mohammad ur Rasool Allah. Lal Masjid Incident was both shmeful and diabolical. Our govt did it to please America. Shame on them. Please read about Islam and understand it and try to give its knowledge to others. West is blaming us Muslims for all the evils of the world which is not right.

  320. Shah Tahseen says:
    January 11th, 2010 5:06 am

    I think most of the people commenting here knows just half of truth and knows only what Musharaf wanted to tell them through PTV. I think every one shall first do research on the subject and shall then make an opnion and write some thing. if you dont know, first go and watch videos related to lalmasjid and here to their point of view. watch the interviews of Maulana brothers. Dont just make a opinion after hereing one sided views.

    I will just ask one question from those liberal facist out there who are either against or not supporting my brave sisters and brothers of Lal Masjid.
    THAT

    Stopping people like Anti Shamim and the Chinese from running brothels in Islamabad is such a big crime that Dog Mush has martyred hundreds of innocent girls whose heart was full of Quran.

    Those who say that method of Lal Masjid is not correct. I will ask them to tell us the correct method. I agree that it is police duty to clear such elements from the society, but what if Police is not doing its duty. E.g. Its Municipality duty to throw away the dirt from your house and streets, but if they are not doing there duty. you will not strive to clean your street from these dirts.

    If any one has any question on the method and cause of Lal masjid Pls. pose it here i will answer.

    Just Liston to Jumma sermons of Maulana Abdul Aziz, Every thing will be cleared like crystal.

  321. ceem says:
    February 14th, 2010 9:43 pm

    @ shah taseen

    yes whtever ppl of lal masjid did was wrong. Noone has any right to impose their morals on others. citizens have no right to take law in their hands. if they do so then they shld be ready to face the consequences.

    i feel sorry if some innocent but misled ppl were killed in this incident. but i hv no sympathies for lawbreakers and criminals like aziz brothers who are at the forforent of extremist suicide bombing terrorist politics done in the name of religion.

    by the way you are progresive enough to learn english, a language of kufaars, and use their inventions eg internet… may i ask who is paying u to go on internet and spread the propoganda of jahadi terrorists…..

  322. Shahid says:
    April 7th, 2010 2:22 am

    Yes, the Mullah brothers were guilty of that episode. If Musharaf was wrong then there are thousands of other Moseques and Madrassas in Pakistan why he did not attach them.

  323. Abdullah says:
    June 5th, 2010 9:54 pm

    If Allah has given us a system to live by, why should we not try to live by it?

    Does Allah not know better than Human beings?

  324. Rehana says:
    August 22nd, 2010 5:30 am

    Deen is the Quran.7:3.
    Mazhab is drawn from Tehzeeb ie civilization.
    Mazhab thrives in all civilizations as the culture is.2:170.
    There is no clegy in Deen ie Quran.9:34.
    Clergy thrives in religion ie mazahib.
    We fall prey to it.
    They make masjid for zarar ie violence—-9:107.
    God is telling us not to stand in them.9:108.
    Masajid are their safe havens.
    Madaris too.
    All dhanda ie businesses of corruption takes place there.
    Violence is spread in the name of islaah.2:11-12.
    Talibans are brainwashed there.
    Ulema thrive.
    Gorag dhandai.
    Rab asks for peace only.
    So run for God.51:50.

  325. Viol-8-r says:
    January 17th, 2011 9:07 pm

    Let me break some ice and nobody know about it until today.

    My and Mr. Ghazi been very close friends from 1994 to 1996. Together we provided support to the UNESCO conference of Education Ministers held in Marriot Islamabad. Then we broke up and then off and on until 1998 and then my last visit was in 2003 to his Madrassa in E-7 which he took over after his father’s Murder and what I have read so far here, in the newspapers and whatever was being discussed during that incident is all wrong and I just laughed and laughed on how bad is this world.

  326. Javed says:
    March 14th, 2011 4:28 am

    This is the one thing that made all of our mess worse. Curse the mullahs and their hooligans in Lal Masjid. I think that was the turning point for the worse in Pakistan.

  327. Qazi says:
    March 20th, 2011 2:51 am

    Just an addition to the reply of Viol-8-r
    on page 41

    Whatever was mentioned in the papers about Maulana Abdul Aziz and Maulana Abdul Rasheed was all wrong. Mualana Abdul Rasheed (Late) is now at the BEST PLACE. GO and ask people who have the ability to verify this statment.

  328. Musalman says:
    March 20th, 2011 2:57 am

    Qazi sahib. Thank you for that insightful comment.
    Can you please also tell us WHO the people are who can verify if the Mualana whose brother was a burqa wearing cross-dresser is in “the best place”. I guess only people who can do so are those who are themselves in “the best place.” Are you in contact with these people. Maybe you can give us a phone number?

  329. JAWAD says:
    April 23rd, 2011 11:19 pm

    MAY ITNA HI KAHON GA BOHAT BORAA HOA KAASH K AISA NA HOTA BUT 72 MAJOR APRESSION.WOH SUB BEKASOOR THAY.
    RANA JAWAD
    FROM SAMUNDRI

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