Muzammil Shah and the Gun Battle at Lal Masjid

Posted on July 10, 2007
Filed Under >Adil Najam, Law & Justice, Politics, Religion, Society
Total Views: 62770


Adil Najam

The news is developing by the moment. But the bottom-line is clear. The security forces have taken control of the Lal Masjid from militants after a severe gun-battle. But the story is far from over.

It will continue to unfold. There are too many unanswered questions. They will certainly be asked and discussed threadbare; here at ATP and elsewhere. But the real story of tomorrow remains the same as the real story of yesterday. Can a society that is so deeply divided against itself learn the lessons of tolerance? This question will continue to haunt us well into the future, in multiple shapes, in multiple forms, in multiple contexts.

This is a question that we at ATP have confronted from our very beginning and will continue to confront. But now is not the time to ponder on this. Even though what has happened had become inevitable over the last many days, I am too heartbroken to be able to do so.

Right now I can think only of Muzammil Shah (photo, from Associated Press, above). This photo was taken as he waited for his son who was inside the Lal Masjid. I do not know whether his son was there voluntarily, or as hostage. But I do know what the look of Muzammil Shah’s face means. The more important question is whether his son came out alive or not. I pray that he did.

Analysts – me included – will discuss what happened at length. They will try to understand the meaning of all this. What does this mean for Pakistan politics? What does this mean for Gen. Musharraf’s future? What does this mean for Islam? For Democracy? Does the fault lie with Abdul Rashid Ghazi and his militant supporters for creating a situation that could only end this way? Why did he not surrender? Is the blood of everyone who died not on his head for his stubboness and arrogance? Or, maybe, it is the government that is to blame because it did not act earlier? Act differently? Waited just a few days more for a negotiated solution?

Right now all these questions seem really petty and small. This is not the time for scoring cheap political points. This is not the time for spin.

Moreover, there are too many questions to ask. To answer. The head hurts as you think of them. But the heart hurts even more as you look at the face of Muzammil Shah.

Maybe the only really important question is the one that you can read between his wrinkles: “Why? Oh God, why? Why must things happen this way?”

276 Comments on “Muzammil Shah and the Gun Battle at Lal Masjid”

  1. Me bhi Pakistan Hoon tu Bhi Pakistan hai says:
    July 10th, 2007 1:05 am

    Yeah, it’s very true the most important question is the one you can read between his wrinkles, this is what I waited for all my life?? Or this is what had to be the result of my beliefs, or is this the result of non conformity to the social changes of the society?? Or life long poverty which could only find its way out in this way.

    The problem is poor old man doesn’t understand that he is survived the past sixty years of his life living in a world of his own, in which heaven is the ultimate destiny of a true believer and this world is a mere pathway. But he never realized he was a citizen of a country where imperialism is deeply rooted in its every institution, whether in form feudalism or capitalism. (I am not sure if they are part of Imperialism).

    I was thinking of the proverb “Knowledge is power

  2. July 10th, 2007 1:19 am

    Govt: Shujat was helpless and called around 4AM that he got failed, thus we started operation.

    Edhi:I was already informed about operation last night[when negotation process was contrinue] because govt officials asked us to bring ambulances,body carriers.

    A clear contradiction. Media is not allowed near surroundings and hospitals(hiding casualties of both sides?). Tribals has threatened to attack in entire country, the tribals who were not even control by US and NATO. BTW, operation is being assisted by US.

    May Allah keep Pakistan stable. I must thank Mr Bush and Mush whose policies are going to make a “loser” as a “Hero”-Good going!

  3. Wasio Abbasi says:
    July 10th, 2007 1:22 am

    Mullah-Military drama was one thing that left no honest Maulana or Mullah any honor or shame with the staged arrest of Maulana Aziz in such a shameful manner. Now making a grand ending of the whole scenario with a military action in the end, it is really the worst the president would come up with.

    Claiming lives of people who are not others but our own countrymen makes one’s heart weep, knowing that there could have been another way, another hope to avoid this. This is not India, this is not the Golden Temple nor we are in the previous millenia … this is Pakistan, this is Islam, that is a mosque and we are in the 21st Century. Is this is how we are going to deal with our problems, I shudder to think how worse we can get.

  4. Viqar Minai says:
    July 10th, 2007 1:24 am

    It is said that as he was leaving the bounds of the citadel, after the Moors were finaly uprooted in Spain, Abu Abdul, the dethroned king turned to take one last look at the citadel; and broke down completely. As devastated as she must have also been herself, his mother admonished him:

    “Why do you weep like a woman over what you could not defend as a man?”.

    The sentiment is still true for a lot of us in Pakistan today.

    My tears have long since dried up. There is no ache left in the heart anymore.

    Only prayers remain …

  5. July 10th, 2007 1:45 am

    sad sad day……….. there is so much that can be said and many questions remain at large and many answers can be found as well……..

    But Dr. Adil you are right, nothing is going to answer or bring peace to these parents and relatives of the militants, the sudents, the army officials and commandos who all died!!

    However, a small question I was pondering was that who willl be clasified as a SHAHEED in this scenario? Is it the militants, the innocent students or the army and secuirty officials…….. In a way they all belived that they stood on the “RIGHT” side and with “GOD”!!????????

  6. menu/exit says:
    July 10th, 2007 3:00 am

    There should be an independent inquiry into how this operation was handled by international organizations to set the record straight. I don’t think justice will be served but at least an inquiry will not stain the history books with the false information that comes out of Pak Army’s ranks.

  7. July 10th, 2007 3:10 am

    A/C to unauthentic news,ghazi’s mother has left this world.

    @Abrar: We have made fun of the term “Shaheed”. when ZAB and MQM terrorists could be declared shaheed then anyone could be called shaheed.

  8. PM says:
    July 10th, 2007 3:14 am

    Right now all these questions seem really petty and small. This is not the time for scoring cheap political points. This is not the time for spin.
    It is so strange that such learned and respected analysts think politics cheap. This shows how military dictatorship over the years have affected even highly educated people psychlology. That’s why in every important matter to this nation politicians are always kept away , look at the issue of Lal Masjid , CJP even Earthquake. Politics is cheap , scoring political points is cheap , politician are cheap and then naturally dictator are ok.
    I am not sure why in US Democrats and other scholars/analsyts think scoring political points on Iraq issue as cheap , and opposition in Britain/analysts/scholars think scoring political points as cheap.

  9. PM says:
    July 10th, 2007 3:15 am

    in above comment the first lines were quoted from Adils blog.
    “Right now all these questions seem really petty and small. This is not the time for scoring cheap political points. This is not the time for spin.”

  10. Ayman says:
    July 10th, 2007 4:04 am

    Pakistan is a sad, sad country.

    Pakistan’s army has fought more wars against its own people than possibly any army in the world –Lahore (1953), Tribal areas (1954), Balochistan (1960), East Pakistan (1971), Balochistan (1974-1977), Tribal Areas (1984-86), Sindh (1983-1985), Karachi (1992-1998), Tribal Areas (2003-2007), Balochistan (2005-2007), now Islamabad (2007).

    They ask for the surrender of Pakistanis every time but have a track record of surrendering before the Indians (1971) and Americans (1953-2007).

    Shame on the Pakistan army.

  11. Social Mistri says:
    July 10th, 2007 5:07 am

    Ayman, let’s not spin doctor the situation to death. Let’s stick to facts. These instances you quote are fabrications. There has been no “surrender” to the US. If Musharraf had not fought against the bloody Taliban, on the other hand, then there WOULD have been one.

    You are referring similarly, to the anti-qadiani riots of 1953, I presume? How was that the military fighting against its own people? What should they have done? Let the rioters loot and plunder? One can continue to show how many of the other instances you quote are absolute bull$h1t, but then I imagine you are not here to gain scholarly understanding of the issues at hand, as is evident from the last line in your post.

    The issue is not with the military, it is with people with the psyche you are exhibiting.

    AS for the Laal Masjid, which is the real topic of discussion here, the Pak Army has done an absolutely miraculous job. Compare this with Tianmen square, the Theater action against the Chechens in Moscow or any recent hostage drama. The Government did not capitulate, did not exhibit a knee jerk reaction or a rush to bomb the complex to smithereens. They waited and gave the terrorists and Abdul Rashid Lanatullah every opportunity to surrender… but they didn’t.

    The action itself didn’t involve the use of airpower even though the Laal Masjid complex is the size of several city blocks and were someone like the Americans running the show, that would have been the opening salvo. Commandos were sent in at risk to themselves, in order to save the lives of innocent people. It was this extremely brave and human approach to the operation that has allowed dozens and dozens of hostages – including a single group of 20 children – to escape post commencement of hostilities.

    The Maj. Gen. in charge of the ISPR said the operation would take 4-5 hours to finish, and that’s exactly how long it took. This was professionally executed without any malice or excessive use of lethal weapons. The Army could have resorted to severe force after SSG Lt. Col. Islam was martyred two days ago… but they didn’t. That is true bravery.

    God bless our officers and Jawans and may God grant the 4 martyred armymen who gave up their lives today to save innocent women and children, a place in Heaven. As for Abdul Rashid Lanatullah, may God roast him in Hell.

  12. S A says:
    July 10th, 2007 5:24 am

    I would like to comment on specfically the reaction of the Muslim world to these events and to the extremists. There has been condemnation amongst the Muslims. People have said they do not represent Islam. These terrorists only account for 1% of the Ummah etc etc. etc


    On the BBC News website discussion forum I found the following interesing comment posted by someone. It was voted the most recommended comment with 171 recommendations.

    “Why are we not seeing clerics and Muslims protesting around the world, voicing their opposition to the Red Mosque’s perverted version of Islam? Why does a single cartoon cause mass protests around the world, but taking hundreds of innocent women and children hostage and using them as human shields doesn’t garner a peep? Where are the normally outraged in Egypt, Indonesia, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, and on and on? Who will stand up publicly and denounce extremism? Their silence speaks volumes.” AK, Riyadh

    The point being, the ‘condemnation’ of the Muslim world has been so minimal, a mere whisper of protest compared to other incidents. Why? If really the Muslim world feel these people are non-representative, why dont they replicate the street burning actions that are so common? On another point, why dont the Muslim Ummah come together, and as they have declared Ahmadis non-Muslims, do the same for these terrorsts? Again yes, there has been condemnation, but Muslims know VERY WELL that it will have no effect on these extremists. It will not eradicate them from Mosques. They will continue to preach their hatred to young Muslims.

    Doesnt this smack of total hypocrisy. Now Compare what Ahmadis have done to give a good image to Islam. Ask non-Muslims around the world, they will give you a good view of Ahmadis, who emphaises inter-faith dialogue, build hospitals, schools etc etc. We produced the first Muslim Nobel Prize Winner in Science for example. Yet the ummah, and ordinary Muslims, went to extraordinary lengths to ensure we are declared Kaffir, to persecute us, torture, impison, and most importantly, TO SILENCE US. Yet now, with this Lal Masjid Saga, the worlds eyes are on Islam. Why do not the ummah unite and not just whisper a condemnation so silent that it is in effect worthless, why don’t they get up and declare these people out of Islam, as they have done Ahmadis? Not just with words, but get together all the Ulema and declare officially as you did in 1974, that such and such extremists groups are officially out of Islam. Why don’t they SILENCE these EXTREMISTS as they have been trying to with the Ahmadis. The Ahmadis have never used force, yet Muslims have used force against us.

    Muslims cannot seperate themselves from these terrorits unless you unite and totally declare them out of Islam. Until then they are a part of your Ummah, and that is how the world will see them, as representatives of Islam.

  13. Dan says:
    July 10th, 2007 5:28 am

    My heart weeps to see my country go through this…but I can fast see that my tears will dry up soon…

    Call this what you will..wether this is stage managed or a genuine crisis I do not know…but one thing is for sure…Mullah’s..these vile..wretched beings are at the core…

    consider if you will please…

    If this was stage managed..then the Mullahs were in collusion and a party to this national nightmare….

    if this was not stage managed and is a genuine crisis…then again…Mullahs are the cause of evil..

    My Dear exalted, Almighty, All knowing, All seeing Allah…please rid us of these wretched leaches who feast upon the blood of the faithful….rid us of these Mullahs who hve twisted and de shaped Islam into something recognisable…of Allah…give my people the wisdom to see past their wickedness…

    Damn you Mullahs…Damn you to the darkest corners of hell…for I am sure it is waiting hungrily for you…as Allah has told us..that the wages of Munafiqat will be heavy…very…very heavy…

    Let me ask you this…when..just WHEN did you ever see a Mullah do anything good? What was the last benifit the faithful derived from these Madrassas…these houses of Peadophilia and factories of hate…Non Muslims should not be worried about these places..its Muslims who should be scared…for the amount of hate preached against fellow Muslims of a different school of thought far outweighs anything they could ever say against any non muslim…
    So be scared Mullah…. be very scared for Hell fire awaits as surely as the sun rises in the east….and again…the wages of Munafiqat will be heavy….very..very heavy….

    take your hate…take your half bakedness..take your blood lust…..take your passion for peadophilia….take your hunger for power and just leave…for Allah’s sake please leave us alone…go …go somewhere…where I dont care…just as long as you go far far far away where I and my family are safe from your Muslim is safe from your tongue….from your hand…from the venom that you spew forth against fellow Muslims…

    Please go…..please just go…I know that you didnt want this country to come into existance anyway..and you have been working to break it apart ever since…but please…this is my Home…my familys home now….you have done enough to shake it to its foundations….
    please just go now…leave us alone with this shattared house so that maybe…just maybe we might set it right and be at peace…

    leave us be Mullahs…leave us be…and pray the Allah sees fit to forgive you…for the wages of Munafiqat are heavy…very …very heavy…!

  14. marya says:
    July 10th, 2007 5:42 am

    i am speechless, and u r right Adil, all the political issues aside: will they ever be able to make up the loss of those who suffered: they never will be able to.
    in the game of the big animals, its always the small ones who get crushed, and thats what just has happened: these hypocrits (mullahs and dictators) have split our country into two: they dnt want to let u live with harmony.
    And Dan! i agree cent percent with what u wrote above.

  15. GT says:
    July 10th, 2007 5:48 am

    It is indeed a very sad day for Pakistan. I have no heart to leave a comment but only prayers for all those who have lost their lives and those who have lost their loved ones. May Allah have mercy upon us all. Maybe some day analysts like Dr.Shahid Masood will be able to explain to us all who were the kings( or queen) and who were the pawns in this deadly game, but today is a day for prayers and reflections. “O Allah! We have done wrong to ourselves so if You have not forgiven us, we will be the losers.”

  16. pm says:
    July 10th, 2007 6:03 am

    read this modified dan’s post. makes sense. Doesn’t it? please note that i agree with original Dan’s post completely.

    My heart weeps to see my country go through this…but I can fast see that my tears will dry up soon…
    Call this what you will..wether this is stage managed or a genuine crisis I do not know…but one thing is for sure…army’s..these vile..wretched beings are at the core…
    consider if you will please…
    If this was stage managed..then the armys were in collusion and a party to this national nightmare….
    if this was not stage managed and is a genuine crisis…then again…armys are the cause of evil..
    My Dear exalted, Almighty, All knowing, All seeing Allah…please rid us of these wretched leaches who feast upon the blood of the faithful….rid us of these armys who hve twisted and de shaped pakistan into something recognisable…of Allah…give my people the wisdom to see past their wickedness…
    Damn you armys…Damn you to the darkest corners of hell…for I am sure it is waiting hungrily for you…as Allah has told us..that the wages of Munafiqat will be heavy…very…very heavy…
    Let me ask you this…when..just WHEN did you ever see a army do anything good? What was the last benifit the faithful derived from these Madrassas…these houses of Peadophilia and factories of hate…Non Muslims should not be worried about these places..its Muslims who should be scared…for the amount of hate preached against fellow Muslims of a different school of thought far outweighs anything they could ever say against any non muslim…?So be scared army…. be very scared for Hell fire awaits as surely as the sun rises in the east….and again…the wages of Munafiqat will be heavy….very..very heavy….
    take your hate…take your half bakedness..take your blood lust…..take your passion for peadophilia….take your hunger for power and just leave…for Allah’s sake please leave us alone…go …go somewhere…where I dont care…just as long as you go far far far away where I and my family are safe from your Muslim is safe from your tongue….from your hand…from the venom that you spew forth against fellow Muslims…
    Please go…..please just go…I know that you didnt want this country to come into existance anyway..and you have been working to break it apart ever since…but please…this is my Home…my familys home now….you have done enough to shake it to its foundations….?please just go now…leave us alone with this shattared house so that maybe…just maybe we might set it right and be at peace…
    leave us be armys…leave us be…and pray the Allah sees fit to forgive you…for the wages of Munafiqat are heavy…very …very heavy…!

  17. July 10th, 2007 6:07 am

    @Dan: the only thing which made sense in your rant was:

    My Dear exalted, Almighty, All knowing, All seeing Allah…

    May God make you capable enough to comprehend things in your surroundings.

    A/C to daw, Ghazi’s mother has died due to suffocation. Inna LIllahe wainna alahey rajion

  18. Aadil says:
    July 10th, 2007 7:27 am

    Whatever happened or are happening in Islambad are feared to bring some serious repurcussions in the form of an increase in the voilent activities throughout the country and the news coming out of Batagram aren’t incouraging at all. It has been learnt that some infuriated madrassa students went on a rampage of airial firing which broughtforth a sense of fear and insecurity among the residents of the locality. There are reports of violent protests from Swat, Bannu and some other parts of the country over the steps taken by the government. Let’s hope for the things to get back into normality as soon as possible otherwise it might become difficult for the government to check the damaging slide.

  19. Asif Alam says:
    July 10th, 2007 7:39 am

    95 % Operation completed – 7:37am EST

    lots of question are spinning through the head but one thing that is crystal clear is that Abdul Rasheed Ghazi is nothing more then a murderer and a terrorist. No matter what your believe is, you do not put others live in jeopardy.

  20. Humayyun says:
    July 10th, 2007 7:40 am

    pm, if there isn’t any army, who is going to protect us from these Mullahs? I understand that there is Mullah Military Alliance when it suits both to but still there isn’t another power in the country that can deal with these militant mullahs. Army is the necessary evil.

  21. BD says:
    July 10th, 2007 7:48 am

    Why the hell did they let the situation escalate to this point?

    Media reports that the militants inside were armed with rocket launchers and automatic rifles! All this in Islamabad without the knowledge of the intelligence? Hard to believe really.

    If the number of civilian casualties rise, the opposition is surely going to try and gain mileage from this. And in this light, what was the stance of the opposition regarding the Lal Masjid standoff before ‘Operation Silence’ began?

  22. Naseem says:
    July 10th, 2007 7:58 am

    Assalamau Laikum,

    How many more mullah/madrassa will Mushi have to after? There are over 20,000 of them.

    After this, I would like to see the best scholars get together and put together a workable shariat package and take it to Hukamat. Let’s phas it in over several years, checking and monitoring, to see what works and what does not.

    This is the only way forward to avoid have this situation in many other madrassa.

  23. symk says:
    July 10th, 2007 9:00 am

    Toady I feel ashamed of our Armed Forces, they showed no mercy and to score some points with western powers killed their own people including women and children in cold blood. Musharraf had a lot of support when he challanged the two brothers but he ended up losing all the support by brutally ending the drama. There were serious negotiations and it seemed that there will be a peaceful end to the fiasco but the government was using talks as a ploy to gain time, they never had any intention of resolving the issue peacefully. The government should have declared victory after the arrest of maulana Aziz in humiliating circumstances instead of prolonging the issue and causing a stiffer response from those in the masjid.
    I am afraid there will be very far reaching and horrendous repercussions from this blotched operation but who cares as long as Musharraf can prolong his rule everything is in national interest. Our army was supposed to protect us from our enemies and time and again it has been used against our own people.The picture truly reflects the sentiments of most of the pakistanis at the deaths of innocent students and our jawans.

  24. RJ says:
    July 10th, 2007 9:22 am

    I read this morning that a nine hour negotiation failed and that the army raided the compound.
    This mullah has a “martyrdom complex” these idiots think that they are going to heaven because THEY think so. The final judgement (in which they should believe, if they are Muslims) is up to Almighty Allah.
    They are not going to heaven because they themselves have justified it.
    What about those innocent children (students) that were held hostage?
    What about the pain inflicted on the families of those children?
    These mullahas nothing but murderous psychopaths.
    If they are found alive in this rubble, they should be tried for treason and mass murder and then they should be hanged in a public square.
    How in the heck did these “men of god” accumulate so many weapons in the House of God?
    Is there a verse in Quran or an Hadith that I may have missed that allows us to pile up arms in the House of God? Mosques, Schools, Ones House are the ultimate sanctuaries. Not war zones.
    The mullah and the leaders of this mosque must be condemned and the government leaders that allowed these murderers to flourish few blocks away from the Parliament must be investigated.

    Sorry, I got carried away. I am sick and tired of these self righteous religious leaders who have hijacked my religion and are being allowed to spout hate.

    May they all burn in Hell!!!!

  25. Anwar says:
    July 10th, 2007 9:23 am

    It is rather unfortunate. There is plenty to indulge in a blame game however in these solemn and somber moments let us hope and pray for those who will never know if the cause they pursued was worth their lives, and for the comfort of the kins they left behind to mourn.

    Guardian has a map of the Lal Masjid operations at,,2118376,00.html

    For the entire nation it is time for deeper introspection.

  26. Toryalai says:
    July 10th, 2007 9:34 am

    To Dan: I agree with your post one hundred percent.

    It’s very sad day for the people of Pakistan and for Muslims all over the world! I do sympathise with all those (not the militant terrorists) who perished in the Lal Mosque confrontation, either because they were the security forces personnel or because they were kept as hostages by the criminal Maulana brothers and there were those who were brain washed. Though I have NEVER supported and will never support a military rule over Pakistan but I really feel sorry for the security forces’ jawaans and officers who by sacrificing their lives got the Lal Mosque area rid of these terrorists (there’s no other word to describe them).

    Those who support sharia laws or religion here, could kindly tell me where has it been applied successfully (e.g., Afghanistan: total failure; Saudi Arabia: fooling muslims through their twisted wahabi/slafi agenda; Iran: just experimenting and suppressing their own people). We must admit that religions (all religions) have been or are the root causes of all massacres on the earth since the day humans started practising them in one form or another.

    Have we forgotton the sikhs and hindus were treated in Afghanistan (stipulating they should wear an orange ribbon to be identified from muslims) and there are many more examples to illustrate the fascist nature of the ideologies of our mulla-driven Islam! The sectarianism in Pakisatn that was encouraged by Zia and then maintained and sustained by successive regimes, killing and uprooting thousands of Pakistani families in their own land.

    I will only vote for a secular Pakistan, devoid of mullahcracy. A prosperous Pakistan for all, run by civilised people and not by foreign funded jehdi terrorists, waiting to meet their 70 virgins in the paradise while disrespecting their female partners on the earth – the physical one, the real one!

    Adil: please discard the first post and keep this one as I have made a small amendment.

  27. Rehan says:
    July 10th, 2007 9:34 am

    I am sure the massacre of Ali’s family was no less grotesque. It just wasn’t recorded on video for posterity. Nothing new for Muslims or Islam. A plague on both your houses…

  28. pm says:
    July 10th, 2007 9:45 am

    @Humayyun so army is no more saving you from india ? it is now mullah from whom this army is saving you? Sometimes I think Pakis are really innocent lot , half of those innocents are fooled by mullah to get heaven in the hereafter and rest of them are fooled by army to save them from hell on earth :)

  29. Humayyun says:
    July 10th, 2007 10:08 am

    pm what is your alternative to army?

  30. pm says:
    July 10th, 2007 10:14 am

    Humayyun what is your alternative to mullah, if your answer is no mullah. then you are right. same is true for army. don’t ask me how and why. every reason for and against mullah holds exactly true for this army.

  31. Humayyun says:
    July 10th, 2007 10:14 am

    Lates: Ghazi Abdul Rashid killed in action.


  32. July 10th, 2007 10:27 am

    This drama is about to end… Let see when real story will come out. I was expecting that Ghazi would be killed due obvious deviation and angerness with writer over last time changing…

    President Musharaf came on TV saying either surrender or die in a typical style as value of life do not matter.

    I have seen western culture…. I know how much citizen rights and life matters in their society.

    Death is inevitable and we must not forget our time.

  33. July 10th, 2007 10:32 am

    18:50 pm UPDATE


    For details Click Here

  34. Dan says:
    July 10th, 2007 10:52 am

    @ Adnan Siddiqui…..

    fine…defend these animals…those who would not think twice or wince before blowing up you or your family while you are out for ice cream or shopping for the next days grocery…your ignorance of the hate these people keep within them will not save you….may Allah keep you and your family safe from the ‘Shurr’ of these Munafiqeen..

    please defend them by all means…but then is cheap and facts hard to swallow..

    what is the benifit of having these centres…these madrassas that produce mindless hate filled bigots who fell you in one siwft blow if you disagreed with the way you do you wudu…
    what is the benifit of these madressas…excpet ram their version of Religion down the throat of all those who would disagree…

    Im sure that you will not be able to come up with a semblence of an answer that even comes close to a positive contribution from these dirty Munafiqeen…
    as a Practicing and abiding Muslim I can find no greater word for these people than Munafiqeen…Gumrah Munafiqeen…
    for the wages as I had so labouriuosly explained to you earlier…
    maybe it would help if you thought about the welfare of your fellow Muslim brothers and sisters..and maybe it would help further if you choose to dwell on a few good books on Islamic history..Politics and Jurisprudence and Islamic case you are interested…do let me know I can recommend many books….

    also…before you start your reply to try to debunk what I have said…just know that these Mullahs are the same people who held a ‘Fateha Dua’ for the Munafiq Al Zarqawi who was slaughtering fellow Muslims like it was the one sure path to winning Allahs approval (refer to Fateha for Zarqawi in NWFP assembly)…so sad …in fact downright negligent on your part that you choose to ignore facts…but I said…talk is cheap..and maybe the truth is a currency you cannot afford..

    and just so I am on the record…I am sad at what happened…truly sad as this was not in the best interest of Pakistan of Musalmaanan e Pakistan ….

    May Allah have mercy on Pakistan…

    Pakistan Zindabad……
    Lt. Col Haroon Islam Paindabad…(aap ka bohot shukriya..we are in your debt. May you fly to Paradise on the wings of Allahs Angels)

    oh and by the way Adnan…it is apparent…his mothers blood is on his own hands…even if she wanted to stay..he should have forced her out so that she could get medical aid and instead of being used as a sympathy tool…
    but i guess its typical to expect this from cross dressing Mullahs who push others to fight to the death and then try to flee the scene with a Guccfi handbag and yes I mean aziz..!

  35. chief sahib says:
    July 10th, 2007 10:56 am

    The religious parties are already planning protests. Nice to see that they never protested against the hostage taking of children and women over the last week. Now they will take advantage of peoples emotions. What a sick bunch of people are we?

    Also for all those defenders of the pair responsible for this situation (i refuse to acknowledge the two brothers as “maulvis” or any sort of religious leaders). Please look at their statements and reality and think for yourself how many times will you believe their lies. (we have only 14 guns, both of us will stay and give our lives etc etc etc)

  36. Umar says:
    July 10th, 2007 10:59 am

    By commandos I think you mean the terrorists with him… but yeah it is very likely that he wanted to surrender but his friends/patrons shot him…

    Good riddance all the same…

  37. faraz says:
    July 10th, 2007 10:59 am

    From professional point of view army-rangers did a great job.

    1. First they were able to save most of childrens/womens.

    2. They took 15 causualities out of 150. It means every 10th. Beleive me it is a very heavy loss of life and great sacrifice.

    They could have gun-ship and tanks but they did commando-operation to save women/child lives.

    Job well done!

  38. SHAFIQUE says:
    July 10th, 2007 11:08 am

    Br.Adnan Siddiqi has hit the nail on the head (about the contradictions and hypocrisy). Many Pakistanis are afraid to speak out against the revulsion and brutalities of our state’s so-called security apparatus – for obvious reasons. Even the expat Pakistani communities have been mute on this subject, until quiet recently. This unfortunate situation suits the tyrants – who benefit and thrives on our silence.

    Extremism of any kind – religious or otherwise, abhors. “Only a more indigenous and inclusive approach to issues can restore tranquility.

  39. Dan says:
    July 10th, 2007 11:13 am

    a small Thankyou to Lt.Col. and Capt Salman of the SSG….

    Thankyou both…..we are in your debt and will remain so……thankyou for your sacrifice…for your courage…we do not know how this will affect us in the long term..but when you were called upon…your courage was not found wanting and you did not falter you did not fail did your job with dignity and sacrificed you life for something good….something that Mullahs cannot lay claim to..

    I only regret that two Lions were felled by bullets from Mullahs who were cowering behind women and children….
    but then again…what do you you expect from people who ask others to fight to the last only to escape in Womens clothing…..such courage..such scarifice!

    I pray that you are in Paradise now enjoying Allahs everlasting and infinite bounty..

    I do not know who Capt Salman leaves behind…but I know of Haroon Islams two little girls…may Allah look after them…

    Pakistan Zindabad!!!!
    Pakistan Paindabad….

  40. Umar says:
    July 10th, 2007 11:16 am

    Yes but why is it that the Mullah brigade gets away, quite literally, with murder, before the state feels compelled to act? You can rest assured that if lesser, beardless/burqa-less, mortals were to occupy libraries, burn places down, kidnap cops, or try to hoard AK-47s, the state would act so fast and with such brutality that we wouldn’t know what hit us… it is only the mullah brigade that gets away with this… even in this operation, they were given umpteen opportunities to surrender, or at the very least allow the students to leave… and after that if there has to be this sort of action against them, well, its about time…

  41. WASIM ARIF says:
    July 10th, 2007 11:18 am

    All of Pakistan is the loser today as we see our own people gunned down by our own army. But this was a necessary evil as they were spreading fasad in the earth which has a punishment of death.We mourn the innocent but not Ghazi and his death since a greater injustice would have occured if such vermin to force their brand of Islam on us all.

    Our only way out is to follow the Quran in letter and in spirit and not to follow a pick-n-mix Islam that sometimes allows suicide bombing and so on. As muslims we are suffereing today deservedly in my opinion because we have deserted the Quran, for example we believe we know better than ALLAH when we support suicide bombing when it is clearly not allowed in Islam. We think we as humans can feel the pain of the Palestinians and others and so excuse their unislamic actions and in doing so by hook and by crook we are saying ALLAH doesnt know best (Nozubillah. My final word is a simple reminder for us all that the Quran says that only the righteous will inherit the earth. let us work together to achieve this noble aim.

    Feimanallah Pakistan


  42. baber says:
    July 10th, 2007 11:36 am

    Adil, I totally agree with you.
    More then 400 dead, humans, Pakistanies, muslims.

  43. baber says:
    July 10th, 2007 11:38 am

    Abdul Sattar Edhi, head of the private relief agency Edhi Foundation, told reporters that the army had asked him to prepare 400 white shrouds used for covering the dead.

  44. Asad says:
    July 10th, 2007 11:43 am

    Lal Masjid: Trouble Spots

  45. ayesha sajid says:
    July 10th, 2007 11:44 am

    ‘Operation Silence’ has finally arrived at some semblence of an end with the death of Maulana Ghazi. Much will now be analyzed, lost oppertunities will be discussed, situations will be deliberated upon and every single thinking citizen of Pakistan will reach his/her own conclusion.
    Was Maulana Ghazi a martyr ( the word martyr is used with so less care and so much repetation that it has lost its fundamental meaning )
    Did the govt have any hand in the creation of the Lal Masjid fiasco
    How did so much ammunation reach the heart of the security concious capitol, Islamabad.
    Was the delay in handling of this situation a result of the govt’s involvement or restraint.

    But during all this disection we as a nation will forget the basics of the entire sequence of events and will make martyrs out of criminals and felenious culprits out of the life savers.

    Malulana sahab (may allah bless his soul) let go of various oppertunities to negotiate with the authorities and held captive after having brain washed innocent minds, while having illegaly captured govt land.This was a hostage situation and should not be taken as a relegious fight by the rightous.His stubborness led to the massacare of so many innocent people. Had he given himself up, so many of those lives could have been saved so lets NOT put the onus of all those deaths on the govt.
    Lets not be led by emotions and lets see the unfolding of all this in the light of logic and what was the “correct thing to do”.

    For all those who blame everything on Musharaf (not that i am a fan of the president and i do tend to agree that he has botched up a host of situations)… give the devil its due and give him kudos for handling this situation with restraint and patience.
    Before we blame the govt for everything let us keep in mind that they are from amongst us and we as a nation deserve the leaders we have at the helm of affairs.

  46. S Akhtar says:
    July 10th, 2007 11:44 am

    Clash of poor vs rich. Rich people spend thousands on one meal at KFC,McDonalds, etc. Poor people have no money and send kids to madrassas where they at least have something to eat.

  47. Umar says:
    July 10th, 2007 11:54 am

    True enough… where they get to eat and get brainwashed in the process… they’re not to blame of course, but the state that creates this state of affairs and the mullah brigade, which has a history of hanging on to the military’s coat-tails should be held accountable… it really isn’t the poor kids’ fault…

  48. Lal Salaam says:
    July 10th, 2007 12:08 pm

    I have one question: what kind of a maddrassa/learning center was this, where the inmates are fighting with rocket launchers and grenades? Please, all Mullah apologists, save your sympathy for a nation that has been held hostage by these idealogues for long enough. It is time for the jackboot to come down, and come down hard.There is no other way. Ghazi was a coward and probably died a coward’s death, hiding behind women and children.
    BTW, I am not a Musharrafite and am against any role of the army in politics (before Adnan Siddiqui jumps down my throat).

  49. Reza says:
    July 10th, 2007 12:09 pm

    Inna Lillahi Wa Inna Ilayhi Raji’oon


    On the one hand you say “This is not the time for spin”; and on the other, this post, well written as it is, takes a peculiar angle on the Lal Masjid saga-turned-tragedy.
    Admittedly, it is a complex issue and there must be several Muzammil Shahs in this state but there are a few questions that arise regardless of state’s role in this whole issue:

    a. where were the parents of these students since the last few months when the Lal Masjid brigade inspired by sacred dreams was taking the law into their hands; and it was clear that the government will take action against them?

    b. Islam and Muslims get defamed each time when a sect or a cult tries to impose its brand of Shariat on the world. It is clear from our Holy Book that “there is no compulsion in religion”; and yet this incident is being given a religious colour. Lal Masjid has nothing to do with Islam per se. It is pure politics and power game. Of course the innocent kids and presumably hostages have been sacrificed at the altar of one man’s intransigence.

    c. Is cultivation of suicide bombers (when suicide by all accounts is not permitted by Islam) acceptable? Sorry it isn’t and this is the plain truth.

    d. Despite the days long siege of the mosque, the Ghazi (now Shaheed!!! as popular lore and posts such as this will make him into one) was unwilling to surrender. After all, we live in Pakistan and not Afghanistan where such private mafias prosper with impunity. So the tragedy is a direct outcome of the adventurism and criminal behaviour of the little mafia, who takes over state property, imposes Taliban Islam and then claim shahdat when challenged. This is not what the majority of Pakistanis want and the proof for this is the OUTRIGHT rejection of such parties whenever there have been elections.

    e. The state acted with maximum restraint. I hate to be in this position of defending the state authorities but they have tried to negotiate until the last minute. Lunatics such as the ones in Lal Masjid were alas not prone to reason or rationality.

    f. Lets pray for those who died; and let this be a message to other thekay-daars of Islam and Shariah that their imposition of self styled cults is not acceptable in this day and age.

  50. Babar says:
    July 10th, 2007 12:19 pm

    Long video interview of Zahid Hussain about Pakistan’s struggle with militant Islam:

  51. Umar says:
    July 10th, 2007 12:23 pm

    The question is, now that the Great Jackboot has made a spectacle out of this issue and shown to the country/rest of the world that he can (when he wants to) take these people on, will he go back to twiddling his thumbs while the mullahs run amok, or will he actually do something about the other such places which have similar weapons? Let this be a wake-up call for him… despite my anti-military rants, I’d be willing to tolerate him if he can really go after these people… however, given the history of the army and its disregard for the shenanigans of the mullah brigade until something drastic happens, and its overt and covert pampering of these people, it seems highly unlikely…

  52. Kruman says:
    July 10th, 2007 12:24 pm

    A must read, gives you the inside story that TV channels are afraid to relay:

    Pakistan’s iron fist is to the US’s liking
    By Syed Saleem Shahzad

    KARACHI – A last-minute intervention by Pakistani President General Pervez Musharraf ended nine hours of negotiations seeking a peaceful end to the siege of the radical Lal Masjid (Red Mosque) in Islamabad.

    Apparently saying he was “heavily under duress from his allies”, the president in the early hours of Tuesday instead ordered in the military to end the seven-day saga. Unconfirmed reports even say that Musharraf personally led the assault, along with Corps Commander Rawalpindi Lieutenant-General Tariq Majid. The media were barred from the mosque’s immediate vicinity.

    Later in the article:

    The next episode has already begun in Batkhaila, North West Frontier Province, where the pro-Taliban Tehrik-i-Nifaz-i-Shariat-i-Moham has clashed with the military and seized all highways in the area, including on the Silk Road leading to China.

  53. Kruman says:
    July 10th, 2007 12:26 pm

    Keep up the great service to your country! I used to believe this is a topi drama, but I was dead wrong. The general has started the endgame for Pakistan’s disintegration.

    May God protect our homeland from the nefarious designs of all enemies, ameen!

    Do read the article I posted above, it is an eye opener.

  54. faraz says:
    July 10th, 2007 12:27 pm

    S Akhtar said
    “Clash of poor vs rich. Rich people spend thousands on one meal at KFC,McDonalds, etc. Poor people have no money and send kids to madrassas where they at least have something to eat.”

    I agree that anger of poors on social injustice helps such form of radicals thinking. They use Islam beacuse Islam is a Egalitarianism religion. But these mullahs ask those poor to have more childs and make them more poor.

    We have to first see how many more lal masjids we have. Then we have to decide as nation how we can make our madrassah more moderate. This event should be “eye-opener”.

  55. Drew says:
    July 10th, 2007 12:29 pm

    Dr. Najam, heard you this morning on the NPR talk show. Your analysis was spot on. You did your country proud.

  56. Umar says:
    July 10th, 2007 12:48 pm


    I read the article… if it is true, I’m lost for words… Mush comes across as a really strange guy… one moment he has agreed to safe passage, next moment he’s attacking… but what is surprising, if what the article says is true, is why the “allies” it mentions didn’t force Musharraf’s hand earlier… I mean the operation has been going on for a week, and negotiations were on too… so if they had such influence on him, why didn’t the all-out attack take place earlier…

    Do tell me/us more about Asia Times… is it only an online paper or does it have a print version too? Is it independent or government-run etc…

  57. Kruman says:
    July 10th, 2007 1:01 pm

    I am lost for words too. I have been reading Syed Saleem Shahzad for over 4 years now. He is a specialist on Afghanistan, Pakistan army and the tribal areas. He was in the headline a few months ago when he was captured by the Taliban and was accused of being a spy.

    Most of his analysis and predictions are based on solid research. His prediction though are not always correct. However, he paints the big picture, i.e. the background and the context, the major players and likley end scenarios better than anyone. As a I said earlier, his endgame scenarios are not always correct, but then who is 100% correct on his predictions.

    When you have bandwidth to spare, read some of his earlier articles and form an independent opinion:)

    Asia Times is a paper from Hong Kong, quite wary of Bush’s imperialistic ambitions. However some their writers are amongst the most erudite, in my opinion. I’d also recommend reading their articles on India-China-US geopolitical game, the international game for oil and on Iraq.

    I find them a good website to visit on a biweekly basis.

    Asia Times Online and, is a quality Internet-only publication that reports and examines geopolitical, political, economic and business issues. We look at these issues from an Asian perspective; this distinguishes us from the mainstream English-language media, whose reporting on Asian matters is generally by Westerners, for Westerners. Our Chinese-language edition presents our articles to Chinese readers around the world.

  58. A. Afridi says:
    July 10th, 2007 1:02 pm

    Drew (or anyone else) do you know what the show was called that Adil Najam was on and if one can see it on YouTube or somewhere else?

  59. Kruman says:
    July 10th, 2007 1:04 pm

    Can you comment on the unconfirmed reports of trouble brewing in NWFP. Asia times has reported that militans have seized control of several highways and the silk route. Geo has also reported of trouble in several cities in NWFP.

    Keep us posted on this, thanks!

  60. July 10th, 2007 1:18 pm

    [...] All Things Pakistan is provoked by the photograph of a father who son is inside the Lal Masjid. “Right now all these questions seem really petty and small. This is not the time for scoring cheap political points. This is not the time for spin.” Share This [...]

  61. Toryalai says:
    July 10th, 2007 1:19 pm

    Sorry if I have offended anyone by my above slogans and now I say: LONG LIVE PAKISTAN.

    Actually I was angry because Adil or whoever is moderating the posts, did not publish my post, despite many submissions; my post was relevant to what had happened today whereby I had criticised the mullahs and their zealot irrational jehadis and at the same time praised the role of our JAWAANS in seeking to provide us with peace and security by sacrificing their lives. But I don’t know why was that not allowed by the moderators, whereas I can see much harsher posts on this board.

    So if you make angry the MULLAHS, they use Islam to defend their interests/politics and when you make angry a Pashtoon then you get the above slogans of mine – sorry mates this is how we have been programmed, we can’t control our anger!

    Once Again Pakistan Zindabad but with the equal rights and provincial autonomy for us! Not much to ask from the Chaudheries (MQM is our ally).

  62. ayesha sajid says:
    July 10th, 2007 1:26 pm

    “seek knowledge/education even if you have to go to china”
    where does it say that the educational institutes have to fortify themselves, collect weapons, lay siege in your own country (however corrupt), brain wash innocent minds, take women and children hostage and create “fitna” in the society?

    Why does every post have to end up in “Mush Bashing” or “Govt Blaming” ?
    why do we not look unto ourselves to see where the fault lies in us or our society ?
    How many of us pay taxes ?
    How many of us stop at red lights or zebra crossings ?
    How many of us would stop to help someone in an accident?
    DO we as muslims act with self restraint when it comes to the things that are NOT ordained in our relegion ?

    Its easy to blame others , take the less difficult path and blame the govt for every ill in the society and then just sit back in air conditioned rooms and discuss the repercusions of politicall fall outs.
    Blame foreign food outlets, USA, politicians, army, mullahs, land mafia and not to forget your doodh wala for addign water in your everyday milk delievery !!

  63. Reza says:
    July 10th, 2007 1:31 pm

    “unconfirmed reports of trouble brewing in NWFP.”

    And now this crap – bigots have been allowed and nurtured for too long. This includes the hypocritical MMA as well. Let this be a decisive moment of Pakistan’s history..

  64. July 10th, 2007 1:31 pm
  65. symk says:
    July 10th, 2007 1:36 pm

    I don’t believe the official figures, only time will tell how many died and got wounded during this botched up operation.
    The way they are preventing journalist by force from gathering any information from the hospitals tells a different story, I won’t be surprised if 1000 people get killed or wounded. God help Pakistan, muslims are getting killed on both sides particularly the poor people.
    The government had a moral victory when they arrested Maulana Aziz but humiliating him on PTV turned the tables and the 2 brothers got support from religious circles at a time when they were completely isolated. Another feather in the cap of our great dictator.

  66. Umar says:
    July 10th, 2007 1:41 pm


    I just read Saleem Shahzad’s earlier articles… quite good articles they were… thanks for introducing this newspaper…

    In one article he speaks of the possibility of US/NATO forces being called in… the TNSM in Swat says a brigade or two of the army can easily be defeated… the MMA has declared a three-day period of mourning, and in Mansehra the fundos have attacked UN offices (whatever the logic behind that is)… looks like the chickens are here to roost, and looks like we are in for it now… I just hope Mush wakes up from his stupor and finishes this business now…

    As as aside, anyone noticed how most of the soldiers in the Pakistan army have beards now? Not that they’d have refused orders, but you never know do you… Zia flooded the army with Jamat-e-Islami literature… the fruits are before us…

  67. July 10th, 2007 1:59 pm

    Toryalai, the comment you mention is actually live (scroll up) and has been for a while. (The remainder of this message is general and not specific to your comment).

    This is not related to the above, but let me take this opportunity to repeat yet again, for everyone’s benefit that the system often automatically puts certain comments in moderation or even in the spam list. This could happen because they use words that are on the banned list, or because they have more than two URLs, or because a user is posting too many messages (or too fast) and therefore the system considers it spam, or because a user has been banned on other WorldPress sites, or because we have placed a set of posters in temporary moderation because a particular thread is in danger of violating our comment policy. (I am sure there are other reasons too that have nothing to do with us). If you post something at it immediately goes into moderation that means that the system has AUTOMATICALLY placed your comment in moderation. Our moderation team will periodically check this list and all messages that have been mistakenly placed there are unblocked.

    As we have mentioned enough times,

  68. Ayjay says:
    July 10th, 2007 2:02 pm

    Such a sad day…
    Some are proud of killing our own people..
    if these some are a majority, my pride in being a Pakistani diminishes further.

  69. UMAIR says:
    July 10th, 2007 2:10 pm

    Ayjay is exactly right. These Lal Masjid molvis (criminals really) have forced the killing of Pakistanis. They have killed and had killed other Pakistanis and have therefore dirtied the name of Islam as well as of Pakistan.

  70. Kruman says:
    July 10th, 2007 2:12 pm

    The moderators have a tough job. They can’t allow the blogs to degenerate into youtube blogs.

    ATP moderators,
    Keep up the good work! We don’t want you guys getting down. All your work is greatly appreciated by the bloggers.

  71. HASSAN' says:
    July 10th, 2007 2:26 pm

    Well I think u guyz would do better analysis of this case but plz keep in mind that who are those Foreign Militants? I think that some high profile terrorists are involve in this issue who actually command Adbul Rasheed (I will not use word Maulana with him coz I personally think that Maulana means “Parha Likha” but he prove himself an Idiot,sorry to say). Lets hope that this story comes out by any means.

  72. Umar says:
    July 10th, 2007 2:32 pm

    Saner voices warned about this WAY back in 1972, when Gulbadin Hikmatyar and Ahmed Shah Massoud (future enemies), barely 20 years old, were given a room in Peshawar and funds and arms to start a rebellion in their own country against Sardar Daud Khan, because he promoted the idea of Pakhtunistan… since then, the army supported Hikmatyar and co. against the Soviets, Zia butchered PLO fighters in Jordan, the army sponsored militant groups in our country to slaughter our own Shia compatriots, sponsored the phony Jihad in Kashmir, created the Taliban, interfered in Chechnya, interfered in Central Asia, and even interfered in China’s Xinjiang province… so much for Pak-Cheen dosti… the list is endless… no surprises that the fire we have set to the neighborhood now engulfs us…

    Time to not only set our own house in order, but to promise never to interfere in our neighbours’ affairs…

  73. Roshan says:
    July 10th, 2007 2:34 pm

    Its a huge tragedy for us as a human beings, as a nation and above all as a Muslim.Its aftermaths would be more horrific than the operation itself.
    Several posts and discussions on ATP over Lal Masjid issue were about worst outcomes if issue is not dealt properly. Alas! the outcomes of the operation are worst than our predictions.
    More killings from both sides, the injuries, the trauma and the sufferings of the neighborhood in G-6 and above all nation is in the state of melancholy.
    Personally, I believe that the window of negotiations should not have been closed so quickly as both parties agreed to framework (safe passage) and the only DEADLOCK was on modalities which would have been finalized by some give and take to avoid big tragedy.
    The lesson which we need to learn from this tragedy is that by using FORCE one cannot bring extremists to surrender their cult or implement shariat in society.
    Unfortunately both parties in this case staunchly believe in the the use of FORCE to achieve their goals.

  74. July 10th, 2007 2:34 pm

    I dont know, somehow I feel its about time we change the name of the country. Its not just this incident where there r villains on both sides, its the whole era and generation of our and our forefathers who left us a mammoth sized poverty stricken population, devoid of any human rights.

    Too much napaaki in Pakistan.

  75. baber says:
    July 10th, 2007 2:40 pm

    Umar this is so true and sad, no wonder why we have an image problem around the world. Do you know Zia was labeled as Waliullah by the Mullahs in 80s?
    I think there should be a change in our public and foreign policy. Who creates these policies in Pakistan bytheway?

  76. baber says:
    July 10th, 2007 2:43 pm

    Roshan its the mentality of Pakistanies (some in power)…they think …lathon kay booth bathoon say nahi mantay…the fact is they don’t know how to talk….good example..wasi zafar and many more like him. This mentality has to change….

  77. Umar says:
    July 10th, 2007 2:49 pm

    “Who creates these policies in Pakistan by the way?”

    Short answer: The Army

    Long answer: The Army… the other “institutions” just toe the army line… even a liberal PM like BB could only watch as the Taliban were created and took over Afghanistan during her premiership… leave aside the obvious corruption and incompetence of her administration, but this is an issue which she would normally not have allowed to happen, unless of course she knew that if she did interfere, there will be a coup the next day… same goes for the nuclear issue… I fail to believe that AQ Khan went around peddling his nuclear know-how without the top brass knowing all about it… I also fail to believe that Taliban activity from our side of the border into Afghanistan did not have at least the tacit if not outright support of the ISI… as for the Lal Masjid thing, the less said the better… the ISI headquarters is but a stone’s throw away… the ISI, which will tap your phone for no reason at all, was unaware that these people were hoarding weapons and terrorists? Gimme a break, as they say here in the US…

  78. July 10th, 2007 3:00 pm

    May Allah grant paradise to Lt Colonel Haroon Islam, all the members of security forces who tried to defend and rescue the innocents in the Lal Masjid.

    May Allah grant ‘PAKISTANI MUSLIMS THE WISDOM’ to see and hear the ‘BLASPHEMIES’ uttered by these evil scum mullahs – especially when one of them said Our Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) told him to so in his dreams (if others where to have these they surely would by lynched by the pious sheep – but hey this is a mullah so thats okah…)

    May Allah grant us the people of Pakistan to collective power to strip the mullahism away from our Islam.

    Pakistan Zindabad – And may that vermin Ghazi burn in hell!

  79. Umar says:
    July 10th, 2007 3:20 pm

    Good point! The blasphemy law has been used by everyone including Charlie’s aunt (to borrow a phrase from Mr. Kamran Shafi) to settle personal scores… its true, like you said, that if any of us had gone around claiming to have seen the Prophet PBUH in a dream and then gone around wearing a burqa, the mullah brigade would definitely have executed a lynching… in fact, they’ve lynched people for far lesser “crimes”… but it will never occur to these hypocrites to do the same to one of their own kind…

    As a matter of fact, Auntie Aziz will definitely re-emerge as a hero one day for these creatures, as the other burqa maulvi from the 50′s did by becoming one of Zia’s go-to guys in the 80′s…

  80. July 10th, 2007 3:38 pm

    wasi zafar should be forced to wear a very tight jeans.
    (some of you might understand what im trying to say)

  81. Akbar A. says:
    July 10th, 2007 3:42 pm

    Adil Najam, thank you for the thoughtful post like always very well written.

    I think you have done a service by not rushing to analysis while so much of the information is still missing. In many of the comments here and on TV people are just saying what they would have said anyhow. Those who were already against Musharraf are calling this his fault. Those against maulvis are calling it their fault. For regular readers the spin and these comments are predictable that not even worth reading. So I am glad you took the trouble of stepping back and focusing on the human tragedy for now and waiting to do real analysis when we have real information instead of just using this tragedy to justify the positions we already had.

  82. July 10th, 2007 3:59 pm

    Look at the conflicting statements of Ulema team and Govt reps regarding failure of last negotiations

    We should use brain and find the answer without considering our personnel feelings

    Loss of 70-80 people (Govt Stat) or more than 150 (Media sources) meant a loss of life.. Loss of hope for these families..

    For us, value is life is equivalent to nothing!!! against the value of life in other parts of world!!! Why this is so?

    Its bcoz we r a crowd of self oriented individuals who dont know how to behave like a NATION.

    Last words


  83. baber says:
    July 10th, 2007 4:17 pm
  84. Dan says:
    July 10th, 2007 4:53 pm

    Well good folks….
    Rashid Ghazi is probably burning in the darkest corner of hell now…
    and Lt.Col Haroon is enjoying Allahs unlimited favour in Paradise…

    couple of things I read in the posts above which really made sense to me..

    one was the fact that how confident these Mullahs are of attaining Paradise…and there we have stories of our Prophet crying in his tahajjud prayers asking Allah for forgiveness and that he may attain paradise..

    My God…the greatest Human being….the reason why this earth was created…and then we have these Mullahs..confident of knowing Allahs will and take it for granted that only they will attain God…Im reeling and trying to keep myself falling off my chair..
    shows how deluded they are themselves…
    as Tony Montana once wisely said..’dont get high off your own supply’….

    guess there comes a time when…if you repeat your bullshit long enough then you’ll begin to believe it…

    secondly…if you or I would make claims that the Prophet PBUH came and spoke to us in our dreams and passed on instructions to us, wed be lynched in a heartbeat…
    but since a semi literate with a beard and a taaki on his shoulder says it its okay and credible….
    seems like they feed off granting each other legitimacy…
    reminds of the european clergy from medieval times…and we all know that cluminated in the spanish inquisition….

    Pakistan Zindabad…

  85. ShahidS says:
    July 10th, 2007 5:09 pm

    Do these politicians realize how much LOSS these strikes cause to the ECONOMY of the country before they open their mouth and call for STRIKES?

    There are people in baluchistan suffering with poverty and in the whole country there is hunger and children dont have shoes to wear.

    How selfish and stupid is that ????

  86. Atif Pervez says:
    July 10th, 2007 5:44 pm

    This is for Social Mistri … Pakistan is an Islamic State, whatever President did was not bad but this was not the way to do it. I would say the Government had more than 4 months to take this matter into hand and would have done better jobs than this… I am living in US and coming to topics with Christians like you guys Hate us that we bomb your MOSQUE in Iraq, now what are you guys doing there in your homeland… All I want to say is this JO HOGAYA SO HOGAYA… Now Ghazi is dead Aziz is Arrested is Pakistan safe future Islamic Radicals invasion like Lal Masjid… Would Government prevent killing of innocent islamic students who has been brained washed to become in the will of the same government who calls them TERRORIST…


    I hope our ISLAM and our Pakistan will be saved by those like Ghazi/Aziz/Musharaff

  87. Israr says:
    July 10th, 2007 5:56 pm

    I want to write a lot of things and I want to read a lot of things , the pictures from TV , the
    sound of a Person telling the world that he is about to die and and that he just helped his mother recite a Kalma , the confusion as to who is Yazeed here and who is Hussein. liberal left in me says the bloody mullahs , the right in me says the bloody army , and the Pakistani in me just wants to cry and cry, ironic as it is, I want to quote Shujaat ” itni mayoosi kabhi nahin hui ” I am afraid the Pakistani in me is what is hurt and may die . I am tired , really tired , those of you who can box things into one or the other you r a fortunate, please dont think for this confusion is aching. many of you seem so sure about this or that and here I am , feel direction less, questioning every thing that i know and every thing that i see , There are no winners and losers or may be all are loosers . Shahbaash Captain Salman and Col Haroon for you stood for what you beleive in or no may be shahabash Ghazi for you sacrificed all your family. Shaabash sub log. and special thanks to Mush and his team for restricting this
    Bloddy Media for I would have seen the hundreds of kids dead in the hospital . Why do i want to see all this, If they were not there like there was no one in waziristan I would not have seen anything and it would not hurt at all. After all we dont know a lot and it doesn’t matter. OHH I found my answer , i need some one to blame, ill blame the media for showing all this. They are the ones that trying to wake us all up, why do we want to wake we want to sleep , dont wake us up, yes it is the media, let me blame the media, oh now i feel better, now i am not crying . now i see things very clear, it is the media , Oh now i see why restrictions are necessary ” for national interest” for the nation needs to keep sleeping,
    and last shaabash sote Raho sathio, sote raho, yehi accha hain, Jago ge to karb hi karb haye

    I apolgise for this but i need to clear things, no need to comment on tthese thought for sote rehna hi behtart haye

  88. pindiwalla says:
    July 10th, 2007 6:12 pm

    Next Target: Binori Mosque, Karachi – it has got its own set of burqa/heels wearing mullahs that need an express ticket to oblivion…

  89. Humayyun says:
    July 10th, 2007 6:27 pm

    Agreed totally. The mother of all evil plans.

  90. Zia says:
    July 10th, 2007 7:33 pm

    I know onething, Pakistan and Pakistan armed forces have lost once again. They were confronted by their own creations once again and none of those idiocrats (pardon my language)admits and try to learn from it.
    I wish students in our educational institutions refuse to create/join groups for RIGHT cause when intelligence and religious parties approach them.

    I just wonder if Pakistan is still an independent country or a nation under occupation of PakArmy that always have people of zero vision at the top.

  91. osman says:
    July 10th, 2007 11:03 pm

    make sure they dont cover up the women and girls killed to protect their image.

    Its imperative the truth be know.

  92. SJH says:
    July 10th, 2007 11:10 pm

    Yes this is a time to be reflective and to be sad at the face of a worried father. Surely poverty and powerlessness does not diminish one’s anxiety as a parent. But before we rush to condemn this poor father we should remember that such moralizing is not relevant to the poor. Maybe I am different from the many others who have posted their thoughts above. I am teary eyed at the loss of innocent life but sadness can beget hope and provide a reckless energy that can sweep away strong structures. Now is not the time for those who love this country to be tired, now is the time for strength and toughness; do not let down the father pictured above.

  93. July 10th, 2007 11:15 pm

    Since someone had asked, my NPR radio (in show ‘On Point’) interview on Pakistan situation (not just Lal Masjid) can be heard here:

    We also got a nice plug for ATP on their website, which was good ;-)

  94. Fareed says:
    July 10th, 2007 11:37 pm

    The whole episode of Lal Masjid is the consequence of the policies pursued during the Zia Islamist Phase. This also reflects on the unwillingness of the powerful military establishment to take on these extremists with a straight bat. Even during this episode questions, which have remained unanswered, have been riased about the continuing links between the Lal Masjid People and the intellegence agencies.

    The real solution to these problems is not operations like this but the complete disentaglement of the military from the decision making process especially the foriegn policy issues and reigning of intellegence agencies who by some accounts have become a state within a state

  95. July 11th, 2007 12:03 am

    Dan, the fact that you ask people wether they’ve ever seen a “Mullah” do any good, shows that you are ignorant and not brought up in a pious environment. I know many goodhearted “Mullahs” and you would too if you strengthen your ties with Sufism in Pakistan…

  96. Shabbir Kazmi says:
    July 11th, 2007 12:35 am

    Hello Adil,
    I went back to your first question “Can a society that is so deeply divided against itself learn the lessons of tolerance”, in fact I have asked that myself several several times, can there be a state of equilibrium between state and religion. Any western historian would say “NO”, because long ago, to achieve an equilibrium of peace and harmony in a society, state and religion have been seperated, both cannot work together. Okay that is a western history perhaps, but what lessons westerners learned, what was the underlying principle upon which that equilibrium was attained. And a painful question, what price they paid. For our society that is at a turning point to pay any price in achieving peace or perhaps some safety, but not willing to learn how to achieve it, has a bigger problem. Once Dr. Karrar Hussain brought up this point in one of his speeches after independence of Pakistan, “now we face a bigger problem, what is our identity, Pakistan will face an identity crises”.
    If you haven’t already seen this, please see these two clips about this ‘deep divide’. First clip is a religious student making his points about what is not available to the poor of Pakistan. And the second one is Musharraf, talking about democracy and progress in Pakistan:


  97. prophecy says:
    July 11th, 2007 12:50 am

    “I knew from the first day that ‘Maulvi’ does not listen,

  98. prophecy says:
    July 11th, 2007 1:04 am

    symk… so shameless…army didn’t cared about innocent people inside, do you know abc of todays weapons?How many minutes army needed to destroy the whole building with every one inside? few right…and how long the operation took?

    if you dont undersand why it took a whole night to clear the building then a better option is to say nothing ….

  99. July 11th, 2007 7:05 am

    Edhi’s words on the stubbornness of the Mullah are ringing in my ears…

    We need another Sir Syed Khan amongst us who can teach us once again that survival of the Muslims in a modern society is not to be attained by regressing into a centuries’ old way of living. We need science, technology, education and a clear focus on justice and human welfare.

  100. PM says:
    July 11th, 2007 7:49 am

    Operation Silence had several objective many of them of already being discussed and known to the public, but there are few other which are not obvious. I would discuss those in these comments.
    Fear of Army: During the CJP saga it was becoming clear that urban people are getting more and more vocal against the army. The fear of army which used to be hallmark during Zia era and in 90′s was now fading. It was important for army to make sure that people realize the might of army. For this purpose the things like curfew , heavy bombing and if you are following the press briefing from DG ISPR you will realize how that fear is deliberately being instilled in the public. Not only public but upper class people were getting less afraid of army might, if anybody has seen the interview from Mufti Taqi , he was reluctant to tell what was changed in the agreement he also mentioned how the commander (perhaps Lt. Gen Tariq Majeed) said rudely to all the people to get the agreement done in half an hour. The whole story will be never known about this, but it seems that army objective was fulfilled. Here are few of my predictions that will show if this objective was fully achieved.
    1. Supreme Court will announce a favorable decision for PM (Pervez Musharraf).
    2. Lawyers (specially likes of Kurd) will now be silenced.
    Objective 2: coming later.

  101. PM says:
    July 11th, 2007 7:50 am

    Objective 2: It was difficult for army to take actions against the people who were vocal during the CJP saga. This was due to the fact that these people were actually “Liberals” and any action against them would raise an international outcry. Since this distincion (Liberal Lawyers and Fanatics Moulvis) was very obvious during the CJP rallies. It was imperative to somehow make sure that the CJP rallies should somehow be branded as radicalist mullahs so that any action against them can be construed as action against radicals for the consumption of international media. The achievement of this objective is not yet known however following predictions will show how much this have been achieved.
    1. In the upcoming days most of the rallies whether from CJP (which it seems to me will not be many) or from the public against this operations (which will obviously be labeled as radical) , there will be strict actions during these rallies.
    2. Some of the vocal lawyers are either going the arrested or will be silenced during the days to follow.

  102. July 11th, 2007 10:02 am

    After looking into the affairs of this country and condition of law and order, i feel that we are living in hell. Pakistan is the only country in the asia where you can

    - play with law as per your power
    - save yourself after killing dozen poor people
    - give bribe and commit a crime as per own wish and roam free of charge
    - even charged with murder, you can hold post of governer, CM etc.
    - use police for your own purpose
    - use state agencies for personal intersts at the cost of public money
    - interpret law and rules even constitution as per own wishes
    - loot the public by devising indirect taxation
    - sell the govt businesses to your own cronies
    - plunder the public money for honey moons and roam the world
    - after each year go for umra at public expense and seek forgiveness for wrong forgiving
    - even zakat money is extorted through banks and then spent by own wishes
    - manipulates the numbers and show that you r progressing
    - rape the women as per your wish
    - snatch vehicles and mobiles
    - collect bhatta’s at gun point

    ETC ETC.

    I cant find a light in a cave where all this is going on.



    Are we going

  103. July 11th, 2007 10:07 am

    PM: While both of us are just guessing at what may come next in the Pakistan story, I think you are wrong in your predictions….

    Quite contrary to the fact that this operation was used to scare the ‘liberal’ urbanite, it was done to actually gain their approval for Musharraf’s rule. Now the liberals once again find themselves in a quagmire where the only opposition to the mullah radical element is sitting in the Garrison and in the Presidency at the same time. Hence, liberals, if they consider the mullah to be a bigger threat than the autocratic ruler, would have little option but to support the President. We need credible politicians (not that there are more than a handful at best that qualify) to come out with a solid plan against extremism and with an agenda that speaks of democracy without radicalism and without jageerism..

  104. July 11th, 2007 10:33 am

    Nice article by saleem shahzad..

    Pakistan’s iron fist is to the US’s liking
    By Syed Saleem Shahzad

    KARACHI – A last-minute intervention by Pakistani President General Pervez Musharraf ended nine hours of negotiations seeking a peaceful end to the siege of the radical Lal Masjid (Red Mosque) in Islamabad.

    Apparently saying he was “heavily under duress from his allies”, the president in the early hours of Tuesday instead ordered in the military to end the seven-day saga. Unconfirmed reports even say that Musharraf personally led the assault, along with Corps Commander Rawalpindi Lieutenant-General Tariq Majid. The media were barred from the mosque’s immediate vicinity.

    Asia Times Online contacts believe that Musharraf was referring to Washington, which has in the past few months stepped up pressure on its partner in the “war on terror” to take action against al-Qaeda, the Taliban and foreign militants inside Pakistan.

    When the siege of Lal Masjid began a week ago, the administration of US President George W Bush was fulsome in its praise that something was being done, as the mosque is a known supporter of al-Qaeda and the Taliban, and even a safe haven for militants.

    According to the contacts, Musharraf said, “They want targets in Operation Silence,” referring to the code name for Tuesday’s final assault on the mosque. That is, the militants should be arrested or killed.

    On Monday, US State Department spokesman Sean McCormack, commenting on terror, said, “We believe Pakistan is a good ally, a good friend in fighting terror. They have an issue there with violent extremism. It’s an issue that affects the Pakistani people as well as others in the region and the US.”

    By Tuesday afternoon, Pakistani forces were in the final stages of clearing the mosque. They encountered fierce resistance, but the mosque itself was said to be secure. There was still resistance from fighters holed up in a nearby women’s seminary associated with the mosque. Pakistani media reported that at least 40 fighters and three soldiers had been killed.

    The fate of Abdul Rasheed Ghazi is not known. He and his brother Abdul Aziz run the mosque. Ghazi was quoted on Geo TV as saying his mother had been wounded by gunfire. “The government is using full force. This is naked aggression. My martyrdom is certain now,” the television station quoted him as saying. Aziz was captured on Wednesday while trying to leave the mosque disguised as a women in a full-length veil.

    At 5am, Ghazi sent text messages to journalists, including this one, saying, “My death is certain.” One of the ideologues of the mosque, Ume Hassan, Aziz’ wife, was arrested with her daughter Asma and 30 hardcore members of the Women’s Brigade of Lal Masjid.

    The storming of the mosque is the first seizure of Taliban assets in Pakistan and is certain to have a strong ripple effect throughout the country as the mosque has strong links with jihadis and the Pakistani Taliban in the tribal areas on the border with Afghanistan.

    Although the offensive in Pakistan’s federal capital – which has captured international headlines – is finally playing out, one question remains. Who is the real director of the drama? Observers and analysts believe there might be several – one running the show separately in Lal Masjid, and others pulling strings from the outside. If so, there can be no clean, simple end to the saga.

    The next episode has already begun in Batkhaila, North West Frontier Province, where the pro-Taliban Tehrik-i-Nifaz-i-Shariat-i-Moham has clashed with the military and seized all highways in the area, including on the Silk Road leading to China.

    It is only a matter of time before the US-led “war on terror” formally crosses the Pakistani border.

    When the talking stopped
    Lengthy talks before the military assault led to an agreement – at about 2am – on a safe passage for Ghazi. This was couched in terms of an “honorable arrest” – brief protective custody.

    The high-profile negotiating team included the Grand Mufti of Pakistan, Mufti Rafi Usmani; Minister of Religious Affairs Ejaz ul-Haq; and Chaudhry Shujaat Hussain, a former premier and president of the ruling Pakistan Muslim League.

    At this point, Ghazi said he would consult with his colleagues, and Hussain went off to confer with Musharraf for final approval of the agreement. Musharraf had earlier approved safe passage as an option.

    When the two sides communicated again – via loudspeakers and mobile telephones – Ghazi apparently then wanted to know what would happen to the “foreign militants” inside the mosque. And crucially, Musharraf had changed almost all of the agreements in the draft. The authorities then told members of the negotiating team to return to their hotels, and at 4:30am 111 Brigade of the 10th Corps moved into action.

    “Yes, the talks were successful. The draft was written. Abdul Rasheed Ghazi was to be allowed a safe passage, but then the draft was sent to the president and he amended it. Things were back to Square 1 and the talks failed,” a dejected Grand Mufti Usmani told Asia Times Online by telephone. He rarely leaves his seminary in Karachi, but was specially invited to Islamabad by the government for the talks.

    Ul-Haq also confirmed that Ghazi was to be given a safe passage, but then had suddenly expressed concern for “foreign militants” and the situation changed. Asia Times Online talked to several members of the negotiating team but they said Ghazi never specifically mentioned “foreign militants”. “He always asked for guarantees for him as well as for those who were with him inside, but he never mentioned ‘foreign militants’,” said Maulana Hanif Jalandari, the secretary general of the Federal Board of Islamic Seminaries.

    Asia Times Online contacts claim that the situation was complicated by the sudden appearance of a delegation of members of Parliament belonging to the government’s coalition partners, the Muttahida Quami Movement. They are believed to have met with a US official at his official residence, after which the situation changed within an hour.

  105. symk says:
    July 11th, 2007 10:56 am

    Interesting to note the people happy at this fiasco
    1. Bush, Howard and Brown (for their interests)
    2. Benazir (biggest opportunist)
    3. Altaf (they murdered 40 people on the streets of karachi, did not allow CJ to leave the airport, in other words challanged the writ of the government yet not even an inquiry and a pat on the back by our president
    4. liberals who always criticize religious parties for their suppoort of Zia’s dictatorial rule (rightly so) but support the current dictator in total disregard to the fact that he violated the contitution
    5. Soon Israili and Indian PM will join the above list

  106. HASSAN says:
    July 11th, 2007 11:01 am


    I guess you missed out the most important set of people who are glad that the criminals and gangster at Lal Masjid have been removed (but sad at loss of innocent lives that Abdul Rashid caused)…. THE MAJORITY OF CITIZENS FO PAKISTAN

    You also left out who would have preferred the Lal Masjid gang to keep going on with their kidnappings, their extortionand their ghunda gardi and turning a mosque into a den of sin:

    1. Terrorists and extremists everywhere who were helping the Lal Masjid in supplying them arms and technique to brainwash innocent young boys and girls.
    2. Bigots and Islamophoics who loved the Lal Masjod because every week it gave them some way of proving their case about how there is something wrong about Islam.
    3. Enemies of Pakistan who loved to see Lal Masjid dismantle state and society.

    So, go ahead and choose your side. I know which one I am on.

  107. PM says:
    July 11th, 2007 11:32 am

    @Bilal , in my opinion there are two types of urbanite liberals one I call EME (Enlightened Moderated Extremists) and other common liberals. EME are just like fanatic mullah albiet due to opposite reasons. EME’s are as happy to kill a mullah as a mullah will be happy to kill an infidel (EME). However the purpose of this operation was not to scare those liberals (EME), it was actually to scare the common liberals.

  108. symk says:
    July 11th, 2007 11:53 am


    I was not aware that you have already conducted a poll and found majority supporting the killings. Only time will tell what majority thinks about this massacre. I have no problem with evacuation of the compound and seizure of all weapons but feel sorry for the hundreds who got killed from both sides. By the way all the so called religous parties had disowned the two brothers for their militant tactics including Dr Israr.
    I wish Musharraf deal with MQM thugs in similar fashion. He will never do that since his objective is to please his masters and prolong his rule. The very idea that Musharraf did the operation to eradicate religous extremism is naive since they have been active right under the nose of ISI headquarters in Islamabad.

  109. July 11th, 2007 12:18 pm

    A number of commenters have mentioned the Dawn report about Abdul Sattar Edhi’s coments about the last negotiations with the Lal Masjid leadership. In all the spin floating around as the vultures swoop down to use this for their own petty points, Edhi Sahib’s words are amongst the few that are creditable. It is a poignant report, and worth reading in full. Especially because it comes from a man of such undisputed integrity and without any axe to grind.

    Here is the report in full.

    Having been part of the late-night negotiations between the authorities and Maulana Abdul Rasheed Ghazi to avert bloodshed at the Lal Masjid-Jamia Hafsa compound, Pakistan’s leading social worker Maulana Abdul Sattar Edhi told Dawn after the launch of pre-dawn ‘operation Silence’ on Tuesday that he had known all along that the obstinate ‘Maulvi’ would not listen.

    “I knew from the first day that ‘Maulvi’ does not listen,

  110. MQ says:
    July 11th, 2007 12:35 pm

    If ever a movie is made on what happened in the Lal Masjid it should be named “Ziddi Maulvi”

  111. Adonis says:
    July 11th, 2007 12:53 pm

    This whole episode has shown that the chickens are coming home to roost. What is the legal and moral authority of the present regime? Musharraf is in power for one simple reason, he has the backing of the strongest armed group in the country, the army.

    This ‘might is right’ atmosphere gives everyone the incentive to acquire arms and try to bully others. I, for one, cannot fault this logic. If one person can rule by the barrel of the gun, you cannot stop others from trying to to do likewise.

  112. S. Ahmad says:
    July 11th, 2007 1:00 pm

    I would like to make some comments regarding Lal “so called Masjid ”

    1. This is the best that Pak government has done in several years in destroying a terrorist den where sacred place of a mosque was used as a cover for millitant activities of Evil Mullahs who have been storing & using sophisticated automatic weapons there & providing refuge to criminal terrorists.

    2. Some Mullah loving people like in comments above suggested “safe passage ” for these murderous Mullah Ghazi & others. Way to go ! Instead of eradicating this cancer , allow it to spread somewhere else so that they can cause havoc somewhere else ! These evil Mullahs need to be given exemplary punishments for their devious role in tarnishing our beautiful religion of Islam & for further tarnishing our great country’s already tarnished image

    3. While it is sad to see people like Muzzamil Shah now shedding tears , Where were they and parents like him when they sent their loved ones to be brainwashed with hate-filled version of political Islam. Lal “so called masjid” brigade antics were going on for several months , Why these parents did,not come to get their kids early ? It is better to remain uneducated than be educated by evil Mullahs for their nefarious designs.

    4.Now Mullahs all over Pakistan will make hue & cry saying that Islam is under attack , It’s a jewish conspiracy, It was done at the behest of America , etc. etc. But the fact of matter is that Islam is under attack from Mullahs & extremists muslims themselves who have distorted Islam & has caused immense damage to it. All seminaries similar to Lal so called Masjid be eradicated . period.

    Long live a tolerant & progressive Pakistan !

  113. faraz says:
    July 11th, 2007 1:03 pm

    Edhi comments in todays Dawn. Every politicail are hungry for powers. Edhi is the only one who can give a honest opinion on this crisis. It is time for our politicail to show statemanship. It is not time for dirty political gain.

    “I knew from the first day that ‘Maulvi’ does not listen,

  114. July 11th, 2007 1:05 pm

    Words to be noted..

    Maulana Abdul Sattar Edhi told Dawn….

    “I knew from the first day that ‘Maulvi’ does not listen,

  115. faraz says:
    July 11th, 2007 1:24 pm

    Adnan Edhi words are more credible because he is the most sincere person in Pakistan. Why he will lie? What he will gain. Do he want position in government?

    He is sheltring ten of thousand and helping millions of ppl in Pakistan. Once he put coffin on 10 days old body of a boy which was so rotten that his own father dont want to put coffin on it.

    Some ppl dont like him because of his stand against “Mullaism”. I hate to say it but there are so many thankless ppl in Pakistan who event don’t respect Edhi.

  116. Pakistaniat Reader says:
    July 11th, 2007 1:32 pm

    Hadd hoti hai yaar. Sharam karo. Just to make a point about your preference you are even disrespecting the one (maybe only) Pakistani who has actually done something for Pakistan and who keeps giving. Don’t drag Edhi sahib’s reputation into this jihadi propaganda. He commands respect and is creditable because he has EARNED IT. The day anyone else does even one percent of what Edhi has done maybe they will command respect too. Maybe you should read the link Najam has in his comment and read the comments there to see why he is respected.

  117. July 11th, 2007 1:45 pm

    society is not to be attained by regressing into a centuries’ old way of living

    Bilal, would you define “Old way of living” for poor souls like me to understand the term you liberals often use to put some weight in statements?

    Do Islam prohibits taking part in any modern day activities like driving car,swimming,workout, getting higher education,gathering with other people/muslims, R&D in science and technology and other fields? Can you tell where in Islam it was mentioned that Muslims lead life in tents and don’t live in modern buildings? Tell me what non-molvis has done for the betterment of Pakistan? what You have done for betterment of this country? It’s such absurd statement to blame molvis for our own weakness and Nalaiqi. Fact of the matter is that Pakistani nation,regardless of religious association is not interested in advancement and they always prefer shortcuts to move forward. When a MIT graduate like you make such statements then I am forced to compare mentality with mentality of people like Bugti, leghari & wasim sajjad who got education in Oxford but their thinking power is not more bigger than a peanut. Come out of delusion, this is not 19th century when molvis gave fatwa against english neither you are in you grade 6 anymore when you were used to study “Pakistan Studies”, this is 2007. Nobody in Pakistan gave fatwa against research work and other things. The fact is that people who have hardly any association with religion did nothing in any field because they were not capable to do anything in their life. If they would have done anything then todays Pakistan was much better shape. I always considered Saudia a backward country who don’t like advancement but reality is saudia is more organized country than Pakistan and their transport and other infrastructure is way better than Paksitan. In your backward saudia,people don’t violate laws and they stop cars on red light. That day I learnt that problem is not in Muslims, problem is in us ,as a nation which is kamchor and nikammi.

    I don’t expect from you but I personally know several practised muslims in my own field of computer engineering who are doing best in religion as well as in their fields. Not only in Pakistan but in US as well. Dude, things like Miswak, Beard,keeping shalwar above ankles are really not obstacles at all. If such things were hurdles then jews should have stopped wearing their famous tiny cap and sikhs would have gotten rid their famous turban. The real hurdle in the advancement is mentality and when I say people like wasi zafar,durrani or tariq azeem who have NO relation with religion then it strengthens my point of view further that ignorance is not dependent on any religion or culture, it just exist in a person.

    If modern day of living is vulgarity,drinking whine, copying crap of west then i can just feel pity for you.

    Come out of your dadajan’s era. Things have changed alot. Now young guys and girls are just not following religion but also doing best in their respective fields as well. Not only in Pakistan but entire muslim world. Todays in OPENSOURCE world, I see more and more softwares in Arabic and farsi. Main linux apps and distros are being translated in local languages while I don’t see such things in Pakistan. I am on ARABEYES mailing list and I am well aware how much are they moving ahead. If religion/molvis was the issue then guys were not able to do anything. Things are changing in Pakistan as well. Come karachi and I will show you such people whic might help to enlighten you. Infact you should spend some time with jews and christians in US,we muslims are not credible for you but hopefully they would be able to teach you how religion and modern world could go in parallel. Mr.Spielberg and Mr.Bachan, I am sure you would have seen their movies. They are not called ancient just because they practise and project their respective religions.

  118. July 11th, 2007 1:52 pm

    Edhi is not god, atleast not for me. Nobody denies his social activities but it doesn’t give freedom to babble about anything and poke his nose in every matter. It means if I am good in my field of computer engineering, I should be credible to give statements against all medical doctors just because the softwares I made were helpful for humanity. Doesn’t it sound stupid?

    Why he will lie?

    Which lie? if you READ again what I said, i only commented on statement “Molvis don’t listen”. So I don’t know where did you get distracted while you were reading my response.

    Stop being emotional. When you guys can criticize prophets and Islam in the name of freedom then I also can comment , a legible comment about Edhi or anyone else.

  119. July 11th, 2007 2:00 pm

    AFAIK, edhi was NOT part of deligation which was busy in negotiation late night so technically his or anyone else’s statement who was not present is not credible at all.

  120. faraz says:
    July 11th, 2007 2:09 pm

    Adnan i have no problem with disagrreing with Edhi. But you used offensive language like “bable”.

    Quaid-e-Azam was lucky he died in one year otherwise this “THANKLESS” nation would have thrown him in sea.

    Edhi is not the most intellectual person we have but he is far better then many “coffe-house” intelctuals specially of the type who give comments here.

  121. Bhindigosht says:
    July 11th, 2007 2:10 pm

    Adnan, you call Edhi’s words “babble”. I wonder what you would call your own long-winded, usually pointless, irrelevant, ill-argued and barely literate e-mails?
    As Pakistaniat reader said above, kuch sharam karo.

  122. July 11th, 2007 2:26 pm

    Bhindi, what is pointless for me would not be pointless for other, the terms you mentioned are relative just like definition of “terrorism”. So it doesn’t matter me at all.

    Actually you guys should be ashamed of your own attitude. You guys should learn one lesson today/tonight[depends on your time zone] that when you come out to give lesson of freedom of expression and liberty to those who defend “molvis” and call them backwards just because they react just like YOU people reacting on my statement then you should have enough courage to tolerate same from others. As some shair said, Aina dekh kar apna sa moo ley kar rah gayee - :-)

  123. July 11th, 2007 2:54 pm




  124. ayesha sajid says:
    July 11th, 2007 3:02 pm

    As if the politicians and the Maulanas were not enough , now the Supereme Court has also jumped in the band wagon by dictating to the govt to provide air passage to the relatives of Maulana Ghazi for his funeral.

    Seems everyone around wants thier fifteen minutes of fame !

    Ofcourse the disection of the entire past scenario of the Lal Masjid goes on. The people who were previously blaming the govt for not taking action and indulging in delaying tactics are now saying that the govt was too hasty in thier operation. Those that come up with all kinds of reasons why the govt should NOT have done what it has done and how it has done it , do not at any point, in the past or now come up with an alternative strategy. All they do is make mischief and stir up things for a fifteen second clip on Geo/ARY/Pakistaniat.

    Will this nation ever improve its ficklemindedness and stop indulging in menial debates ?

  125. asa says:
    July 11th, 2007 3:11 pm

    those, who are extrimists, are our brothers and sisters, sons and daughters.

    they are not our enemy.

    yes, they are mis-guided and have forgotten their right path, but they are our own people. they need our love and guidance. they need our concentration. they are not at all entitled to be bombed, killed and massacred.

    who mis-guided them?

    who taught them of jihad?

    who brought them into this mess?

    the america, britain and pakistani american and british back dictators.

    if, they are extrimists, their lesson of extrimism came from america and britain.

    if, they are terrorists, their lesson of terrorism came from america and britain.

    why dont we tell this more boldly?

    why dont we protest against america and britain for their misguiding activities against our own innocent people in 80s?

    yesterday, it was american and british order to pakistan to prepare extrimists to fight against russia,

    today, it is american and british order to kill and eliminate all extrimists because russian job has been fulfilled.

    but, these people are not japanese toys,

    they are our brothers and sisters,

    they are human beings,

    they are muslims,

    we can not massacre them because of american and british orders,

    we should educate them,

    we should guide them,

    we should allocate funds for them as we had once allocated funds to make them extrimists to fight against russia,

    we can not allow america and britain to insult muslims in the pretext of these american and british created terrorists and extrimists.

  126. Shafique says:
    July 11th, 2007 3:16 pm

    Pakistan’s post-mortem (Lal Masjid)

    “Musharraf ….. I like him and I appreciate him,” Bush said….

    Within the country not everyone is convinced the government did the right thing….
    accusing Musharraf of secretly encouraging Islamist radicalism to counter to growing demands by secular political groups for restoration of the democratic process and the calling of elections.

  127. ayesha sajid says:
    July 11th, 2007 3:19 pm

    Adnan sahab , we all know that you are an emotionally over wrought , highly charged person but I tend to agree with Bhindigosht, lets try and keep Edhi sahab out of this debate.
    His only concern in this entire situation was the welfare of helpless women and children and any man who needed his care which he is very adept at giving.
    The word BABBLED is not very polite to use for any one , least of all for a man who has given so selflessly to this nation with no want of a return.

    The tendency to get carried away in an argument is inherent in our society so one cant really blame you but try using logical and valid points instead of chest beating tactics.
    It is so unbecoming of a person of your calibre !

  128. Adonis says:
    July 11th, 2007 3:26 pm

    When the US government conducted a similar operation in Waco, Texas against a compound full of christian fanatics, there was tremendous hue and cry in USA due to the significant loss of life. So a similar reaction to lal masjid carnage is completely understandable.

    Of course the big difference was that the Waco operation was ordered by a legally elected government while the lal masjid operation was undertaken by a gang of thugs which has imposed itself on Pakistan and insists on calling itself a government.

  129. July 11th, 2007 4:01 pm

    we all know that you are an emotionally over wrought ,

    Ayesha,better than being beyhis and ignorant. :-)
    What I see that everyone is charged up against me just because I criticized _EDHI_. why can’t edhi be criticized? what’s all fuss about? where is all openness,enlightment and tolerance? Ain’t you guys proving my point that all tolerance and freedom of expression is relative

    My statement is just not based on his recent statment about molvis but an interview which published in jang a month back in which he tried to twist Islamic rules so much that even some liberal writers couldn’t resist and made statements against him in same paper.

    So When you are not aware about something then it would be better for you that you read concerned resources than make your point. Visiting some site like ATP ,reading comments which “match” your mindset and just throw a statement is not sane either. So read again what I responded earlier to Adil. If you are not being able to do doodh ka doodh pani ka pani then I shouldn’t be cursed for that.

    Really, It is so unbecoming of a person of your calibre !

  130. faraz says:
    July 11th, 2007 4:32 pm

    Adnan. I read that interview of Edhi. I am personally comfortable with his point of view.

    I understand that “religion” is not Edhi speciality and his comments will be considered as “biddat” by many scholors.

    Just one question. Let assume that his comments are “biddat”.

    Does his personal religious belief makes him less respected?

    So you respect ppl depending upon their personal religious beliefs.

  131. Adonis says:
    July 11th, 2007 4:49 pm

    Edhi is a very well respected figure but he is no communication expert nor a top negotiator.

    He asked Ghazi to surrender but he refused, hence he is branded ‘ziddi’. Lets keep Edhi the best social worker of our times and not try to turn him into a sage.

    Isnt he the same man who said that Pakistan and India should form a confederation and letter said that he is sorry becuz he didn’t know what confederation meant.

    In one of his latest interviews, he mentioned that his son who was overseas wanted to marry a croatian girl. When the son called Edhi about this, he asked if the girl was with him and wanted to marry him. On getting an answer in affirmative, he said that as both bride and groom want this marriage and as edhi and his wife who was sitting close to phone are witnesses to this, hence they are now married !!! Mnay of us would be uncomfortabloe with this mechanism of getting married, to say the least.

    Of course none of these things take an iota away from his uncomparable social service. But lets keep him a social worker instead of making him an authority on every topic of the world.

  132. Shafique says:
    July 11th, 2007 5:23 pm

    What we have here is a problem of secular fundamentalist and religious extremist.

    Both are fanatics and to a greater extend responsible for Pakistan’s failure. Until the reconciliation between these two extreme forces to a Middle Path of Islam takes place, the problems of Pakistan will remain pressing.

    The Establishment may have succeeded in diverting the attention from more pressing needs by this divide-and-rule strategy. Either we oscillating between these two opposing positions or are divided along ethnic lines. In all cases, we end up in futile discussions and arguments that in my humble opinion is a cul-de-sac and meant to keep us divided.

    Obviously there is more than one interpretation of the events of Lal Masjid. But one does not need a PhD to see through the brutal end-game of the Establishment’s Realpolitik.

    If we continue on this hostile path and remain divided into different warring and hostile camps, than we can’t have this mass-mobilization needed to change the status quo and deal with the real problem and real issues facing the common men and women of Pakistan.

    It time we stop wasting a substantial part of our energies in fighting the so-called enemy within. The masses of Pakistan have never left Islam. It is the so-called enlightened or not-so-enlightened elites who use tools such as religion for their vested interests. It is high we return to the Middle Path of Islam and practice it – for therein lies our and our beloved country’s salvation.
    May Allah Bless Pakistan!

  133. July 11th, 2007 6:03 pm

    Adnan, some of the most ‘profound’ words come from those we consider uneducated – but highly experienced – Edhi called your Maulvi thug a ‘ziddi’most of us would call him much worse – yet a simple straight forward ‘truthful’ word coming out of someone who most of us consider beyond politics irritates you?

    I think we need not drag more innocents into this mess that was started by the Lal Masjid Mullahs! Oh and someone was mentioning Mullah-E-Azam or Mufti-E-Azam – I used to use that as a joke – but do we havve one of these?

  134. Kruman says:
    July 11th, 2007 6:07 pm

    I think most people are missing the big picture. There are a lot of amart and savvy people here, certainly more than I am. But your insight and experience is no match or substitute for a person like Irshad Ahmad Haqqani.

    Haqqani sahib, one of the most repected journalists in Pakistan, writes an uncharacteristally blistering article in Jang on July 11, 2007. The last 10 lines are especially worth reading:

    (Today) Zille Ilahi has been replaced by Generals…. The hatred against the army is gathering into a storm. The military conquest of Pakistan is complete……….. But the godfather of Pak military is desperately trying to salvage the Musharaf regime by trying to negotiate a deal with Benazir. Even if the govt. makes a deal with BB, or for that matter with Nawaz Sharif, this movement will continue to gain momentum … Like the leaderless French revolution this revolution too will not stop till it meets it’s goals, there will be a dama dam mast qalandar.

  135. Kruman says:
    July 11th, 2007 6:18 pm

    Ali Ahmad Kurd said it the best prior to the operation, “Both generals and mullas are criminals.”

    The mullas took law into their own hands and the generals orchestrated a dance of death for their audience in the west.

  136. baber says:
    July 11th, 2007 6:22 pm

    Adnan Bhai,
    I agree we should not make GOD out of Edhi or even worship him has a hero. But credit must be given were its due. You have born right to disrespect anybody you want and no can stop you but don’t mind if we disrespect you unpar gawar mullahs. You seem to be angry just because Edhi gave a statement against your mullahs. Just like you were angry when Sohaib Mansoor gave a statement against mullah junaid jamashed.

    You look like technology enthusiast tell me how many mufties/mullahs have a TV or Internet at their house. What about Taqi Usmani? check and let me know.

    Problem is not religious people or religion itself, its the political mullahs. Because of whom innocent people are dying everywhere in the world from Indonesia to New york.

    And you sound very confused about technology / progressiveness, you say Arabs building open source software. My friend have you ever been to miscrosft or cisco or say oracle there are thousands of desies (Indian and Pakistan) who have created software which is used everyday. Even with low literacy rate and limited resource we out number the crazy Arabs in any field you name it. This infrastructure you talk about in saudi was built by the British, Indians and Pakistanies not by the mullahs, Yes from Arab Oil money. The new generation of Arabs are too busy driving fast Cars and playing with ringtones on their cell phones.
    The only Arabs who are really into technology are the egytians(I consider them African) and morrocans(French cause they speak it better then arabic) not the camel jockeys. FYI I teach technology.

  137. Adonis says:
    July 11th, 2007 6:33 pm

    Just a side issue. I am surprised that when some people say ‘desis’, they are infact referring to indians and Pakistanis.

    My understanding is that all participants on are Pakistanis and for us, Des is only Pakistan. So indians are not Desis, they are in fact Pardesis…..

  138. NaaPak says:
    July 11th, 2007 7:02 pm

    Interesting to see the reaction of the rest of the Muslim world.

    Why are we not seeing clerics and Muslims protesting around the world, voicing their opposition to the Red Mosque’s perverted version of Islam? Why does a single cartoon cause mass protests around the world, but taking hundreds of innocent women and children hostage and using them as human shields doesn’t garner a peep? Where are the normally outraged in Egypt, Indonesia, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, and on and on? Who will stand up publicly and denounce extremism? Their silence speaks volumes.

    AK, Riyadh

  139. Viqar Minai says:
    July 11th, 2007 11:31 pm

    Happened to watch discussion between Mushtaq Minhas and Nusrat Javed on Aaj TV during the “boltA PAkistAn” show. Without any editorializing, following is the gist of what was said:

    1) Nusrat was complaining that people are faulting journalists (like himself and Mushtaq) for not providing any useful information. In his words, they say “vaisay to baRay phannE KHan bante ho …” etc.

    2) He was wondering about the whereabouts of hundreds of hostaged women and children. Where are they? Are they safe? Why were the media not allowed the opportunity to speak to 25 odd who did manage to come out and surrender during the operation?

    3) Ditto for the foreigners and wanted militants from the banned outfits (e.g Abu Zar). Why have they, or their bodies, not been produced?

    4) Nusrat further complained that people like him seemed to be getting it from both sides. Lal masjid sympathizers were dubbing him “government ka chamchA”, while those in favor of the operation were accusing him of being” maulvi ka chamchA”.

    5) Mushtaq presented the summary of the information they (i.e. him and Nusrat) had from their own sources, since the govt. hadn’t been forthcoming. He stated that, according to their info, there were (at least) 285 killed during the operation, including 11 women. He did not cite his sources (possibly hospitals or morgues).

    There were four callers, three of them women, during the show. Women were very emotional and blamed the govt. Two of them nearly broke down finishing their statements.

    Nusrat menetioned that, opinion-wise, the calls before and after the operation are flipped 180 degrees. An overwhelming number wanted action before it happened. Post-action, most callers are blaming the govt.

    Go figure.

  140. Aqil Sajjad says:
    July 12th, 2007 12:38 am

    Here is a clip of Abdul Rasheed’s last discussion on GEO TV:

  141. July 12th, 2007 12:40 am

    I agree we should not make GOD out of Edhi or even worship him has a hero. But credit must be given were its due.

    who don’t give credit? Don’t worry, i dont have peanut like brain like liberals who can only absorb things which they consider is “right”. I always appreciated work by Cowasjee for Karachi and Edhi for Humanity but if some of them start abusing my parent and I don’t react just because they worked good for karachi then it’s an absurd demand. The reason I mentioned my parents because this is very closed relation and even I am not some good practised muslim, I would sure react and respond these mentioned people if they try to offend Islam or islamic clergy, just like I would react on insulting of my parents

    You have born right to disrespect anybody you want and no can stop you but don’t mind if we disrespect you unpar gawar mullahs

    Huh, who STOP you psuedo intellectual to offend mullah. Most of the time you “educated” do here. Infact you should have written:

    We have born right to disrespect every Islamic clergy but noone else have right to offend our GUYZ because we are intolerent.

    someone should change the meaning of hypocrisy. ;)

    You seem to be angry just because Edhi gave a statement against your mullahs

    abhi tu aysa lagta hay k entire leftist cabal mey aag lagi huwi hey ;). I am enjoying :-)

    What about Taqi Usmani?

    having tv or not doesn’t mean someone is modern,its pretty childish and weark argument. I seldom watch tv because I don’t like it but I do use Internet. However Taqi Usmani’s islamic madarassah’s students are getting modern education like science and computers and their labs do have Internet connection,infact I was told they have dedicated line for school. =). I also added before that Taqi Usmani is chairman of Meezan Bank and Bank is not some ancient thingie. ;)

    ust like you were angry when Sohaib Mansoor gave a statement against mullah junaid jamashe

    yes as everybody knows that I try my best to pay respect molvis/mullah, the islamic clergy just like every other religious people respect their clergy. I am not ashamed of it. Why should I? just because few blacksheeps? they are in every fields including field of yours,mine and field of college professors. Offcourse you will feel disturb when someone curse your family member and you definately react someway or another. For me molvis are like my family members because they are religious mentors just like my school teachers were my mentors. Since you people use religion as a spare part therefore you will not understand this. You people didn’t respect any teachers in your life that’s why you reject everyone which you can’t comprehend by using your brain. No wonder people like you in different varsities offend professors like Adil,MQ and Tina.

    -i am talking about Open Source and you brought MS in middle? huh? go spend some time on net,do some research and then come to me. Except pakistanis most of muslim nations are moving ahead in the field of technology.

    Faraz,read again I already answered your questions in my previous posts and this as well. I don’t need to repeat one thing again and again.

  142. M.Rahman says:
    July 12th, 2007 12:54 am

    We can blame the religious establishment all we want but we’re the ones who have delegated ATR (All Things Religion) to them; We want one of them to lead prayers, celebrate birth, marriage, divorces, death, burial and so on.

    If disciplined study of religion was to become part of curriculum (K-12), no one would feel intimidated and apologetic to preface any religious discussion with “I’m not a scholar but…” and be prepared to challenge the establishment (religious or otherwise) with sound, learned point of view.

    Our problems are our own creation and thus our earned reward.

    Najmuddin Shaikh is his article
    succinctly establishes breakdown of government machinery.

    The only thing we can salvage immediately are the lessons learned.

  143. July 12th, 2007 2:26 am

    Shafique, if someone offend your teacher/parents and you scold that guy then should you be called “extremist”? On other hand if you don’t react just because you are open mind then would it be called enlightment or beghairti?

    if that’s the definition then I am proud to be an extremist.

    Few months back, ATP made posts about Punjab university cheater professors,people here condemned them and quit, nobody made statements like “professors tu hotey hee dhokey baz hain”,”professors are bikao maal” etc.

    Recently I read many posts here about lawyers, people condemned concerned lawyers,nobody disrespected entire lawyers cabal by saying that they are cheaters and unfaithful but whenever a molvi comes into discussion then everyone jumps in and start giving his/her wisdom words includig graduates well known varsities. India made a movie “Munna bhai-I” which might be a funny for many people but to be honest in that movie they offended a professor . What if everyone starts calling every professor on earth “Mamoo” or “Takloo”? how would they feel? Not good na or its some civilized thing? i ask this from all resident professors, how would they feel if society starts calling them with such names? similarly how would a lawyer feel if everyone starts cursing them just because few laywers are helping govt too?

    The way a molvi is cursed in PAKISTANI society ,only a molvi can tell a real story but since I experienced it in daily life that how people call their names, I bet it’s not easy to tolerate it at all. Imagine if all professors should started be calling MAMOO or cheaters due to punjab university teachers, they wouldn’t be able to tolerate it at all. ARe professors not highly respected people? when we can accept their mistakes then why a molvi is treated like a god? Ask yourself! Those professors or any other field person who offend molvi, I challenge them to deal same situation in real life then I would ask how does it feel.

  144. Ajnabee says:
    July 12th, 2007 5:13 am

    We can blame the religious establishment all we want but we’re the ones who have delegated ATR (All Things Religion) to them; We want one of them to lead prayers, celebrate birth, marriage, divorces, death, burial and so on.

    When did we tell them to start terrorism though? Now that they have gone the way of terrorism let the government despatch them to hell. No regrets there. Good riddance.

  145. Asma says:
    July 12th, 2007 5:17 am

    Regarding Lal Masjid Combat, how do you feel, please feel free to post your opinion.


  146. Toryalai says:
    July 12th, 2007 5:27 am

    ADNAN SIDDIQUI SAHIB, You are getting too emotional about your mole-o-vie. No comparison can be made between maulavies and educationists (school/college/university teachers). There are black sheep in the teaching profession but they constitute a tiny minority. While the maulavies have got mainly black sheep with the tiny exception of good sheep – still sheep!

    Give me few example about maulavies contribution in making our planet a peaceful place! They have committed many crimes in the name of religion that we are ashamed of our religion today! The list of these criminals is very long. Yes in rare cases some mole-o-vie influenced professors have take the role of Maulavies and caused mayhem in the society, examples: many professors/engineers in Afghanistan’s holy war turned their guns on their own people immediately after the withdrawal of Soviet forces, massacring their own people becasue of their ethnic, sectarian and linguistic differences. Few names:

    Engineer Gul Badeen Hikmatyar of Hizb-e-Islami
    Professor Abdul Rasool Sayyaf of …

    In Pakistan there are these regressive professors in the rank and file of mullah hierarchy!

    Just answer to this question:

    Why Pakistan is in a total mess despite thousands of Madrassaas and hundreds of thousands of maulvi’s involvement in our social lives?

    If you replace all these sectarian maddrassaas and regressive mullah with modern educational institution, you will see a real socail change in our society.

    Please keep in mind I am not against Islam or anti-muslim, I am against all these illiterate mullahs and their military backers who are directly responsible for our plight and chaos in our society!

  147. Ajnabee says:
    July 12th, 2007 5:45 am

    btw talking of creation, current bread of mullahs were created by Army and US to fight communism and later Russia. Now the true creators of Mullahs – Army and US – are out to eliminate their own creation.

  148. Shafique says:
    July 12th, 2007 6:01 am

    Br. Adnan, you misunderstood the essence of my post. I agree with you that the label “Mullah

  149. ayesha sajid says:
    July 12th, 2007 7:13 am

    NaaPak :
    I agree with you …Countries like Egypt, Indonesia, Jordan, Lebanon and so on are generally more concerned about what is happening in thier own premisis and would much rather concentrate on setting thier own house in order than interfere in the matters of others. Rightly or wrongly, they keep to themselves , UNLIKE us who will not make the matter of others more ours then they will themselves. Cartoons, Rushdie, Headscarves, etc will be dealt with higly emotional rantings and chest beatings. Perhaps if we had been so charged and sincere about our own home , we would be left with half the problems we are facing today.

    Adnan :
    You will justify your own words for or against anyone and yet you will not show the same tolerance for anothers point of view. In your long posts, sometimes you make sense , most times you contradict yourself eg; you will defend the mullah and brandish anyone saying anything against them as lesser muslims, you will consider anything against even one of them as blasphamous and intolerant and yet you will not apply the same check on yourself when you talk of “the others” ( the others being anti militants in Islam )
    On a lighter note , are you on Red Bull ??

    The Jamia Hafsa should be raised to the ground to set an example for all those madaris that are harbouring militants and arm bearing extremists. Madaris are the seat of learning and should not as a rule be used for a misguided vendetta.
    The Lal Masjid should remain wehre it is and used for prayer purposes only. Ideally every masjid should be locked after every prayer (as done in Saudi)

  150. NaaPak says:
    July 12th, 2007 7:46 am


    The majority of maulvis are good decent people as individuals. They do their jobs and restrict themselves to what they know the best- the spiritual and academic upliftment of their wards.

    But they are the silent majority. It the likes of Abdul Rashid Ghazi who beat their chest and become the defacto spokespersons for the maulvi community.

    Until the majority draws a line in the sand and takes a stand, they deserve the derision and scorn of the Muslim Ummah.


    Furtheron, until the majority in those countries rise up and take a stand, we will have further “versions of Lal masjids” in each and every one of those countries.- As pakistanis, its neither here nor there, just wanted to make a point.

  151. July 12th, 2007 8:56 am

    Indeed, that is correct just one other thing you mention Islamic Clergy? there is suppose to be NO CLERGY IN ISLAM, the mullah today is simply implanting himself between the Muslim and Allah SWT. This I agree is the political mullah which needs to be taken out of the equation in the development of Pakistan and a modern just nation – something that the QuaidEAzam wanted and the silent majority of Pakistanis wish for.

    Now that the government has shown the way we as Pakistanis should not rest until the MADrassas are split from the madrassas and the vilonence and hatred that some of these teach is nipped in the bud.

    The mullahs who teach violence and hatred should be dealt under the same sharia law they wish to impose on others publically – on tv and radio – so the people of Pakistan know what ‘islamic’ methods they use to pervert the faith and energy of Islam for their own ends.

    And should they be dealt with under true sharia laws – then we will probably cut the mullahclergy population down by 90-95%.

  152. July 12th, 2007 8:58 am

    I told every body before this is all topi drama… read the news, express…etc..

    you will find how hype is generated on propaganda of hostages, foriegners, mines….

    mass graves being prepared…

    Every paper is saying….


    Ansar Abbasi’s report on The news:

    Government claims deceptive

    By Ansar Abbasi

    ISLAMABAD: The government’s repeated claims that late Maulana Abdul Rashid Ghazi had laid mines and held women and children hostage to use them as a “human shield

  153. Adnan Ahmad says:
    July 12th, 2007 9:35 am

    Did anyone notice the need for [media] attention by the deceased maulana. It is a subject in itself and is studied in detail about high profile serial criminals in the west. In the end it seemed the best reporter for GEO was Maulana himself giving them minute by minute updates. He lived up to that role till his last as he sent the last text to Hamid Mir of GEO minutes before he was shot. What was the point of those calls and messages when he himself was affirming that it was all over?

  154. faraz says:
    July 12th, 2007 10:39 am

    Adnan. There is a reason I am against mullah class. Without prejuducie read the book “What went wrong” by Bernard Lewis. In that book he has given concrete reference to “autumn documents” and has made his case how mullah version of Islam is responsible for downfall of muslim civilization.

    He has given specific examples about these mullah opposes “watch”, “astronomy”, “living abroad for higher education” etc. Except getting modern weapons for army these mullah opposed all aspects of enlightment. Our mullah have same mentality. For them science and technolgy is nothing but getting advance weapons. Science is name of curiosity and opening your mind to brave new world of nature.

  155. faraz says:
    July 12th, 2007 11:29 am

    I meant “ottoman documents” (typo) in my above post. Our mullah influence our thinking by putting pressure on our education system.

    Let me give you concrete example. I once read 9th grade biology book of my eleder sister. There was full chapter on “Evolution”. In my book there was just small para on Evolution and our teacher told us not to read that para. I later found out that Zia has changed biology sylabus as per mullahs instructions. This is kind of biased minds these mullahs want to create.

    We have so many educated ppl who looks moderate but from inside their minds are not open and they are deeply bigoted.

  156. anon80 says:
    July 12th, 2007 12:08 pm

    I was watching Imran Khan on the Riz Khan show on Al Jazeera English and he made some bold statements about the Red Mosque Crisis. It was really interesting!
    Check it out:

  157. Adonis says:
    July 12th, 2007 12:22 pm
  158. Shafique says:
    July 12th, 2007 12:28 pm

    “There are two opposite visions that animate American scholarship on Islam and Islamic societies. One vision represents Islam – the religion and society – as an enemy that must be destroyed … This is the camp led, among others, by Bernard Lewis, Daniel Pipes, Charles Krauthammer and Martin Kramer.

    [The late] Edward Said gets to the nub of Lewis’s Orientalist project when he writes that his “work purports to be liberal objective scholarship but in reality very close to being propaganda AGAINST his subject material. Lewis’s work is “aggressively ideological.

  159. KAWA1 says:
    July 12th, 2007 12:32 pm

    On heroism the American political journalist and historian, Theodore H. White, said:

    “To go against the dominant thinking of your friends, of most of the people you see every day, is perhaps the most difficult act of heroism you can perform.

    The society we live in exerts tremendous demands upon all of us to conform to its unwritten dictates. At times we find our deepest and most cherished convictions put on trial against the tide of a majority-held opinion. We all have an inner moral voice, yes, but only a few brave souls among us listen to it and answer its call for action while most of us agonizingly attempt to silence it. Those who defy the crowd on a perceived wrong all the while knowing the consequences of their defiance truly possess moral authority and character. It is they who are the heroes of a society”.

    Now coming to Lal Masjid saga and all the views and comments on this blog. The bloggers putting their views on this forum can easily be divided in six categories;

    1) People like me, who were always against the Mullah’s or radical Mullah’s to be exact with a strong belief that the last resort for a scoundrel is an escape to religion. To me and many of the likes of me, being religious is being a pious man who follows the tenants of Islam without making a big fuss about it.
    How so ever, with all my dislikes I DO NOT support the killing of almost 1000 dead people (the true numbers will gradually surface)and regret the ruthless action of this Government.

    2) People who are sold to supporting Musharraf dictatorial regime hell what may come even to the dismemberment of Pakistan. These are people who understand that their own survival or the survival of their affiliated political party (a chance after 60 years) is so closely linked to the survival of this regime that the question of going any other way is not even an option. These are people who will go to ANY extent to safeguard or protect the downfall of this particular military dictator.I refer to MQM and it’s supporters on this. The massacre of March 12th in Karachi was a reflection of the same & several bloggers with same thought use the power of their intellect to brain wash or mislead others without disclosing their ulterior motive.

    These are people who will portray themselves to be the enlightened one’s against mullah radicalism & militancy. In fact that is a deception technique because in reality these people have quietly and discreetly supported similar militancy for the last 15 years by MQM.

    3)People with family links to the military (not retired personnel) and current civilian hierarchy making it possible for them or their families to reap great financial benefits from their roots within this establishment. Examples of this are son’s, daughters, nieces, nephews, close friends or business partners of the current set-up.
    These people will all support Musharraf’s actions against Lal Masjid not because of their conviction but they understand that to talk negative about the incident would just add another voice against the current regime and thereby put a hole in their pockets.

    4) People who are hell bent to oppose Musharraf and no matter what he does would be condemned. These people might have supported this action had there been Nawaz Shareef or Benezir Bhutto (depending on which sides you are) in power taking the same action.

    To be fair, this also includes people who oppose any kind of military rule/martial laws and are and have been sold to the idea of democracy as that was the basis on which Pakistan came into being. To give myself credit, I also fall in this category.

    5)People with no minds of their own and live their lives just playing safe and politically correct for lack of arguments. Whichever forum they sit on, they will side with the dominant thinking around themselves and change to go with the flow.

    6) Someone told me a long time back and I find this so true; There are three kinds of people; a)those who make things happen,(b) those who try and understand what happened, (c) those who say “what the F… happened”
    Unfortunately some of the comments on this blog on Lal masjid comes from our friends who are part of the (c) category. With all due respects to them, keep going as together we make this forum a great place to be on…

    Unfortunately none of us have any moral voice to justify our comments and the poor masses (90% uneducated) who have no clue what we all are talking about are living a pre-human life in Pakistan. Their voice is simple,
    “Roti, Kapra & Makan”. Real and not just a slogan!

  160. faraz says:
    July 12th, 2007 12:43 pm

    Shafique. I have read Edward Saeed as well and I am also impress by him. The issue is as Atta Turk once said.

    “There are never two civilization at any time of history. There is always one emerging civilization. Either you join them or remain uncivilized”.

    What I and many ppl think that why not join western civilization while holding to our identity and some key values. There must be some compromised some reformation in the way we percieved Islam. I think Pakistan is going in that direction but ppl are confused that in which direction they are going.

  161. Adonis says:
    July 12th, 2007 1:12 pm

    Just heard on the news about new girls only schools opening up in USA. Seems like that when some of us are hell bent on aping the western countries, these countries are making a u-turn.

    So it seems like following these countries will infact always keep us far away from them.

  162. symk says:
    July 12th, 2007 1:38 pm

    Please give Edhi a break, the poor guy was so afraid that despite repeated questioning declined to give the number of casualties to an ARY correspondent. When asked that his ambulances were used and the Army asked him to bring the shrouds he reply was that he can’t answer the question. His son, rizwan just weeks ago could not even name MQM when they snatched dead bodies from their center and said it was a political organization who did that. How can Edhi ever blame the government who had earlier warned the journalist that whoever will get close to the hospitals will be shot. Edhi is a great man but can’t be a political analyst, nor can he confront the government thereby risking his job.

  163. Kruman says:
    July 12th, 2007 3:22 pm


    Asma Jahangir has asked the very basic and fundamental questions that we need to ask ourselves and the military regime.

    - “Today wrong people (who took law into their hands) have been killed by wrong methods. Tomorrow ordinary citizens will be killed by such wrongs methods.

  164. Dan says:
    July 12th, 2007 4:56 pm

    @ All

    sad that Adnan Siddiqui feels the need to trash Maulana Edhi again and again…

  165. July 12th, 2007 5:09 pm

    Please tell me who is this MullahEAzam – I swear I heard people that Pakistan has one of these?

  166. Ajnabee says:
    July 12th, 2007 5:10 pm

    This is amazing. These Mullahs opposed Quaid e Azam but had no problem coming over and benefiting from – actually, taking over – the country he founded. They oppose Edhi but have no problem using his services – Edhi’s ambulances took injured of all those bomb blasts in various mosques, nishtar park etc. If he is such a kafir, why use his services? Ironically it’s these Mullahs who need Edhi often with all those madrassas induced acts of terrorism on opposing mosques and religious gatherings.

    Should we ask these Mullahs what good THEY have done for the country… and for Islam? …..Lal Masjid comes immediately to mind.

    If it were not for people like Edhi, Mullahs would have ruined completely Islam’s reputation as a humane religion. We need more like Edhi and less (in fact none) of these hypocrite Mullah types. In all the bearded ones, Edhi has understood the message of Islam the best.

  167. July 12th, 2007 5:42 pm

    Adnan Siddiqi Saab,

    Regarding your vicious attack on Edhi Saab’s so called ‘babbling’. I will not even afford you enough credence to debate with you since the responses thus far have clearly put you to shame and on the defensive.

    All I will say is stick to your computer engineering and comment on only that, for your comments have shown contempt for the greatest living Muslim in the world in my opinion. Edhi Saab for me is the undeclared lifetime President of Pakistan and the Amirul Momineen. I hope you will ponder and reflect on your post and come of your high horse and apologise instead of boring the pants of ATP readers like me with your lame excuses and foolist rants.



  168. Dan says:
    July 12th, 2007 5:45 pm

    @ Ajnabee..

    very right..the same can be seen with the Lunatic Mullahs in the UK…spouting hatred against all other living beings all the while drawing a fat welfare cheque from the UK government and living with their brood in a council flat…and they see nothing wrong with that

    That is their worth….Mullahs always …without exception crap where they eat..

    These wretched people were opposed to the creation of Pakistan anyway and have been working to undermine and destroy us ever since…

    I wonder if any of you has seen a house made of wood with a termite infestation…the termites leave the outer shell standing even as they have eaten the inside of the wood completely…but these Mullahs are even worse…they do not leave the outer shell standing…they devour with a fervour that is frightening.. all is consumed and all is lost…

  169. Sophaeyyah says:
    July 12th, 2007 5:46 pm

    I was just reading through all the posts and I was also against maulvis and used to say all the things u all said. Today I saw the press covering the insides of Jamia Hafsa after The Red Mosque massacre (there is no other word for that). There was one thing that opened my eyes forever. There was a message above the switch board. It was saying to conserve electricity as it is a blessing of God.

    Believe me I have studied for my whole life in the best of educational institutes and I am a doctor. I have had the best of teachers but never in my whole life for once any one of them taught me this thing. Umme Hassan has become my teacher in some way and I salute her for this. They are not illiterates but we are.

  170. Azra says:
    July 12th, 2007 6:01 pm

    All my life I have wondered how people can take such extreme views that they are ready to abuse and kill each other. Then I read the comments here from those opposing the mullahs and those supposedly defending them. And both sets are equally reprehensible. I guess extremists on all sides are alike. They can not accept anyone else’s opinion except their own and can only spew hate at others. Too many comments above on both sides of the argument are like that. This is scary because if supposedly intelligent people can take and write like this then there is very little hope left.

  171. Toryalai says:
    July 12th, 2007 6:11 pm

    Sophaeyyah said on Jul 12th, 2007 at 5:46 pm

    ”There was a message above the switch board. It was saying to conserve electricity as it is a blessing of God.”

    Did they Umme Ehsaan not teach her Taliban-e-deen that life is a gift and blessing from Allah and no one is allowed to take that back.

    Don’t you think that things like hand grenades, explosive jackets and other weapons (klashnikov and kalakov) were not supposed to be in the premises of mosque, in the hands of Taliban-e-deen (the real terrorists)?

    To Azra: on this forum only one side promotes extremism and that is the side which defends the mullahs!

  172. Azra says:
    July 12th, 2007 6:30 pm

    Dear Toryalai, I wish what you say was correct. Just scroll up and read teh last half dozen or so comments. They will prove that extremism comes in all flavors.

  173. Dan says:
    July 12th, 2007 6:35 pm

    why yes ofcourse, I am the extremist for expressing my views against Mullahs due to their wickedness….their fondness to use fitna and fasad to divide Muslamaan against Musalmaan….their desire to act a bridge between Allah and myself when my religion asks for no such thing…

    what total BS!!!!

    I am the extremist?? I am the bigot?? I am the intolerant one?

    am I the one looking to blow up anyone who does not agree with me? am I the one threatening suicide attacks against my fellow Muslims if I do not get what I ask for?

    am I asking all to bow before my interpretation of how we should live our life? am I the extremists who condemns every other group of Musalmaans because they wear their trousers 2 inches lower or higher…

    am I the extremists for holding a nation hostage?

    am I the extremist for hijacking the Kashmiri freedom struggle and turning it into a Talibanised Operation and making the kashmiris hate the idea of joining Pakistan….
    am I the extremist for stealing government land and then trying to use religion as a rouse for keeping it?

    am I the extremist for kidnapping..of all people the chinese…thereby again…putting my own house at risk….

    I am not calling for anybody’s execution…or am not declaring anyone else a Kafir…as is the Mullahs want whenever anyone agrees with him…

    no..I am not the extremists that the prophet warned about when he gave his last sermon to the faithful gathered around him….these Mullahs are….these are the Munafiqeen…and as a beareded…practicing and proud Musalmaan…I for one am sick to death of these half wit mullahs with a dirty taaki on his shoulder who thinks just because he chooses to have a beard he can tell me how I should follow my religion…the hell with that I say..

    and I am sick…am just sick of these Mullahs trying to win arguments by simply talking longer and louder than people like me…however, no longer should we allow this…

    read the Quraan people…read our history and understand why we became masters of our own destiny….read about our laws as they once were…the same laws that made the jewish population of Al-Andalus flock to tunisia and morocco and other arab lands when the catholics were wiping them out….
    read and arm yourselves with knowledge so that you may fight the Mullah and shout back at him when he begins to spew his so called knowledge…for he has none..and the little that he does have is tainted by firqawaariyat and rejectionism….

    read and you will understand what made us great..powerful and and you will find out how we were once the source of all that was beautiful and good… we were once magnanmimous and tolerant and strong…there was no place for the Mullah as he is now…he must be sought out…de bunked…discredited…his power to divide taken away from him..his power to inspire hate removed…

    the Mullah must be stopped…for it is not too late…
    and Inshallah stopped he shall be!

  174. baber says:
    July 12th, 2007 6:49 pm

    @Pyara Adnan Bhai

    “but if some of them start abusing my parent and I don’t react just because they worked good for karachi then it’s an absurd demand.”

    So you clearly say that mullahs are like your parent and you can’t take an abuse on mullahs. Thats fine.Why are you taking it so personal. Just because you respect mullah so highly doesn’t mean we have do it to.

    “The reason I mentioned my parents because this is very closed relation and even I am not some good practised muslim, I would sure react and respond these mentioned people if they try to offend Islam or islamic clergy, just like I would react on insulting of my parents.Huh, who STOP you psuedo intellectual to offend mullah. Most of the time you “educated

  175. Ajnabee says:
    July 12th, 2007 7:15 pm

    Azra, killing a murderer is justice. Opposing extremist Mullahs a duty. Don’t confuse yourself.

  176. July 12th, 2007 7:24 pm

    read the Quraan people…read our history and understand why we became masters of our own destiny….read about our laws as they once were…the same laws that made the jewish population of Al-Andalus flock to tunisia and morocco and other arab lands when the catholics were wiping them out….
    read and arm yourselves with knowledge so that you may fight the Mullah and shout back at him when he begins to spew his so called knowledge…for he has none..and the little that he does have is tainted by firqawaariyat and rejectionism….read and you will understand what made us great..powerful and and you will find out how we were once the source of all that was beautiful and good… we were once magnanmimous and tolerant and strong…there was no place for the Mullah as he is now…he must be sought out…de bunked…discredited…his power to divide taken away from him..his power to inspire hate removed…

    Dan bhai – Islam teaches that we make the best of life for others and ourselves and trust in Allah SWT – the Mullah wants a position that is not allowed in Islam that of the go-between of Allah and the Human -( remember that blesphemous wretch Mullah Aziz he dreamed the prophet pbuh told him to do XYZ) is certainly very much like the termite or even the rat which is infecting the body of the nation and destroying it from within, we should tell the pakistani people about the truth of islam and falsehoods of mullahism – as i said above if sharia was established in Pakistan then probably 95% of these mullahs will get the death penalty!

    Save the Mullahs? To hell with them Pakistan Bachao!
    Pakistan Zindabad!

  177. July 12th, 2007 7:33 pm

    Adnan bhaijan, may I ask which mullah you regard as your parent? or any mullah would do?

    And should this mullah of yours misbehaves and hurts others – then that does not give everyone else a right to defend the innocent and fight your mullah?

    Also you mention ‘Islamic Clergy’ when did Islam begin to have a clergy?

  178. July 12th, 2007 7:47 pm

    This thread has now become utterly repetative. If people have anyting substantive to say on the specifics of the Lal Masjid issue that has not been said before they are most welcome. Otherwise all tangential comments will be moderated out. Personal discussions are, of course, best undertaken individually rather than on a public forum.

    Once again, we humbly request people to respect our comment policy.

  179. Aqil Sajjad says:
    July 13th, 2007 1:05 am

    A possible confrontation in Swat: HERE

  180. Dan says:
    July 13th, 2007 5:57 am

    @ Sophaeyyah and Azra,

    Tolerating Evil for the sake of Tolerance alone and for the sake of appearing tolerant is not tolerance….it is dellusional…..

  181. Ammar says:
    July 13th, 2007 7:26 am
  182. Stranger says:
    July 13th, 2007 8:09 am

    Ammar, what a useless article and one sided propaganda. He failed to mention that before operation lal masjid guys killed a ranger who was only putting the barbed wire on public property which government has absolute right to. He failed to mention that in Chinese “massage

  183. Ammar says:
    July 13th, 2007 8:09 am

    Pls read the remarkable column of Dr. Shahid Masood

  184. Stranger says:
    July 13th, 2007 8:10 am

    This article may be relevant after incidents like lal masjid. It uses Britain as reference but most points apply all over.

  185. Ammar says:
    July 13th, 2007 8:15 am

    Strangers ! pls read it again, u will find that he also criticized the Lal Mashid holders. Its not one sided.

  186. Stranger says:
    July 13th, 2007 8:36 am

    Has he mentioned the two points I have mentioned above? No. Killing of ranger incident is very serious. No government can tolerate that.

  187. Stranger says:
    July 13th, 2007 9:25 am

    Ammar, btw read the article I linked above. This is the sort of thinking we need right now, not the typical Mullahs mentality that this Kashif guy depicts.

    If Prophet himself was not a daroga on the rest then what right do these Mullahs have to create mischief in earth and to force their shariat on others?

  188. Adonis says:
    July 13th, 2007 11:59 am

    Is running brothels legal in Pakistan?

    If no, then action should be taken against those running these. If the government does not want to act against them then it should change the law.

    If the people don’t want brothels around then they should try to change such government by their votes that does not take action against these.

    But the question is that if the government does not want to implement the law and the people don’t have their democratic right to elect their rulers (thanks to the military), then what should they do?

    If the rulers don’t accept the verdict of ballot, then it will encourage the use of bullets.

  189. Stranger says:
    July 13th, 2007 12:25 pm

    [quote]Is running brothels legal in Pakistan?

    If no, then action should be taken against those running these. If the government does not want to act against them then it should change the law.[/quote]

    What other law is not broken in Pakistan? And what else is done by Government for people? Does the government provide water? Sewerage facilities? Anything else? No.

    Lack of action on brothels is part of same no-action policy of government as anything else. On the other hand why are brothels the most important issue for Mullahs? How much of Pakistani public have access to them? People are dying everyday for lack or food, clean water, medicine and due to floods etc. Why aren’t Mullahs making saving human lives their first priority? Because its all politics. To prevent people from dying requires a lot of efforts and since most are less off and probably have no (or unaccounted for) votes, it doesn’t work politically for Mullahs to work for them.

    [quote]If the people don’t want brothels around then they should try to change such government by their votes that does not take action against these.

    But the question is that if the government does not want to implement the law and the people don’t have their democratic right to elect their rulers (thanks to the military), then what should they do?

    If the rulers don’t accept the verdict of ballot, then it will encourage the use of bullets.

    I don’t agree but sure go ahead. You have seen the hashar of Lal Masjid.

  190. Adonis says:
    July 13th, 2007 12:46 pm

    This regime is pretty quick in taking action against political dissent. So it cannot be accused of inaction entirely.

    For me, a crazy mullah like Abdul Aziz and a drunken moron like parvez musharraf, both are Pakistanis and I would not like to see any of them killed in cold blood.

    As for the ‘hashar’ of lal masjid, lets not forget the ‘hashar’ of golden temple at the hands of indira gandhi and what happened subsequently. I hope that Pakistan does not suffer the same fate.

  191. July 13th, 2007 2:17 pm

    and those supposedly defending them

    Azra, fact of the matter is that noone yet couldn’t give a concrete definition of “religious extremism” and everyone used it for his own purpose. First of all,tell me that is it a sin to defend mullahs? do you want to say that rabis are not defended by jews? or do christians and hindus never pay respect to priest and Pandit respectively? Or you want to say that rabis,pundits and pontiffs are NOT evil or they are god-like structure?

    Those who speak about extremism are confused themselves, they just hear something on media and just vomit it out. If a mother stops her son for not going outside in curfew so would it be called a extreme act?similarly if a teacher scolds his student and asks him to do homework so is that teacher a educationist extremism? is the message of Islam Amar Bel Ma’roof and Nahye ‘An el Munkar? is example of religious extremism? According to Islam, One can’t complete entire Quran in less than three days. This is the best example of discouraging Extremism that is reading Quran all the time. If some molvi advises me not to do it because it’s not good so should I start abusing him just because he dared to teach me.

    The slogan of religious extremism is raised by only those who want Quran in one hand and a glass of whine in other hand so that they can show to world that they are moderate and liberal, Deen o Dunya saath saath . So please keep the things in perspective.

    As baber said ,credit where it’s due then this should applicable for everyone not for favorites only.

  192. July 13th, 2007 2:49 pm

    Adnan there is NO CLERGY SYSTEM in ISLAM! The Political Mullah implants itself between Allah SWT and the Human – we should not tolerate this.

    We should deal with the Political Mullah as a rat that is destroying our fresh crops!

    There must be NO COMPROMISE with the Mullah!

  193. Akif Nizam says:
    July 13th, 2007 2:51 pm

    Adnan, here’s a definition of religious extremism:

    “imposing one’s own religion or one’s own version of their religion onto others by using force or threat of force when such force is not sanctioned by the law of the land”.

    What’s so disputed about that ?

    ……and the last time i checked,

    “amr” danda
    and “nahi” danda

    I’m pretty sure those terms were meant for imparting tableegh and not takleef.

  194. Akif Nizam says:
    July 13th, 2007 2:54 pm

    ….in the previous post, there was a “not equal to” sign between the words amr & Danda and Nahi & danda. For some reason, that didn’t go through.

  195. July 13th, 2007 3:16 pm

    Why Govt is not taking action against the brothels and wine shops?

    Its all to make happy our masters sitting on other side of world… if some one will take action against these centers which presently serves rulers than normal folk in Islamabad, our masters will brand us EXTREMIST:)

    Nothing to talk about law and constitution… if culprits can be made Governers.. then anything can be happened….



  196. Akif Nizam says:
    July 13th, 2007 3:44 pm

    “Its all to make happy our masters sitting on other side of world…”

    …..hmmm, let me guess, these would be the same masters that six years ago, you were cursing every day to have foresaken you. The ninetys was a vey strange time for us Pakistanis: we couldn’t blame America for our problems, we could’t blame the military and yet we killed each other in record numbers and drove the country to bankruptcy. I’m so glad we are back to the normal now.

    Death to America for…..the flooding in Baluchistan ….and for the termite problem in my closet!

  197. July 13th, 2007 4:39 pm

    A person sitting in US and making statements like:

    I’m so glad we are back to the normal now.


    What are you doing over there? why don’t you come back?

  198. Akif Nizam says:
    July 13th, 2007 4:52 pm

    Adnan, when I said “we”, I meant America and Pakistan; I have a stake in both. Also, would you care to comment about the actual points or was that the best you had to offer?

  199. July 13th, 2007 5:05 pm


    Please consider signing. The petition will be delivered to CJP in 15 days.…..-Pakistan/

    Join the coalition of the truth and the battle to save the soul of Pakistan.


  200. Akbar says:
    July 13th, 2007 5:12 pm

    I fear commenting here because people seem to immediately become personal and the rules of muhazib gutagoo are ignored. But at the risk of getting igniting some people (who I will ignore) I do have a serious question I keep worrying about. It seems that most people of all types in Pakistan are convinced that the Lal Masjid operation was done to please the US and the West. But the problem is that anyone who lives in teh West or reads teh Western media knows clearly that the West is NOT pleased by the operation at all. Most western media seems to agree with MMA maulvis that the operation even if needed was heavy-handed. So, it seems that theory is either not correct or did not work.

  201. Lal Salaam says:
    July 13th, 2007 5:24 pm

    I say, I will take the wine and brothels any time over the danda :)….. any time….. :)

  202. Adonis says:
    July 13th, 2007 6:07 pm

    Akif Nizam, your definition of religious extremism is quite valid.

    “imposing one’s own religion or one’s own version of their religion onto others by using force or threat of force when such force is not sanctioned by the law of the land

  203. Dan says:
    July 14th, 2007 5:38 am

    @ Adnan Siddiqui…

    just want to break down what you wrote in one of your last posts…

    …”do you want to say that rabbis are not defended by jews? or do christians and hindus never pay respect to priest and Pandit respectively? Or you want to say that rabis,pundits and pontiffs are NOT evil or they are god-like structure?”….

    so basically what you are saying is that you defend the Mullah because the Zionists defend their Rabid Rabbi’s and becuase the Hindu’s defend their genocidal Ram Sevaks….
    I see now where you get your religious ques from….NICE! :)

    roma locuta..cause finita..!!!

    Rome has spoken…case closed good people..we now know what the Mullah really craves and what he expects from us and what justification he gives for expecting our support

    …the Mullah wants a similar demi-god like status in Islam in which all matters related to Islamic Jurisprudence are left to him and him alone…as I keep saying the goal of the Mullah is the systematic dismantling of Islam and then reforging it in a way that allows them all the power that the Mullah has craved for…

    Thanks Adnan….you said it better than I could ever have!! :)

  204. Dan says:
    July 14th, 2007 6:10 am

    @ All…oh who am I kidding…its @ Adnan Siddiqui :)

    please refer to Anwars post from INSPIRATION PAKISTAN: ASHIQ MANG..regarding how he was declared a Non Muslim for hugged a sweeper..

    During my short lecturership experience in Peshawar when I hugged a sweeper who visited me for eid greetings, many students simply froze. Few stopped by my office to express their views and concerns and yet another vocal group declared me a non-Muslim…

    Another example of the Mullah simply ‘ex-communicating’ a fellow Muslim…hmmm..I wonder who used to do that and for that matter who still does that…
    why its the christian clergy by golly!!!
    must be sad to be a Mullah…to be clergy in a Religion which HAS NOT CLERGY..and looking on at their counterparts in other religions and the power they enjoy or enjoyed…

    really people these Mullahs might just deserve our sympathy..actually Adnan is probably the one who derserves our sympathy…please feel free to start a sympathy posting campaign for him :)

  205. Dan says:
    July 14th, 2007 7:32 am


    Id like to pose a question to a Mullah who might be listening..

    how come when you want ‘Promote virtue and eliminate Vice’..your horizon only includes prostitution and alcohol..are you really of the Opinion that these two are the top two problems facing Muslims in Pakistan…if you do then I have nothing further to ask you and will let people judge for themselves..

    but what about the feudal sickness in lower punjab and sindh…where people are kept like cattle and are deprived of any rights …how about a Jihad against a system that endorses Jirga systems which systematically pass punishments like rape, marriage of baby girls…parading women naked…
    I do believe…and truly believe that if you were truly interested in Jihad and the elimination of Vice…you would be out there fighting to eliminate it…
    how come you never go…kidnapp the jirga that let Mukhraran mai be raped…bring them back to the Lal Mosque and demand that this sick system be dismanteled…
    instead of asking that the latest Van Damme DVD be burned…

    but of course you have no answer to that…I have asked this to many a Mullah but they start meandering and just babbling about how I dont know how evil DVDs are hehehe… :)

  206. MB says:
    July 14th, 2007 8:47 am
  207. baber says:
    July 14th, 2007 12:16 pm

    I think poverty, illetracy, gun control, drugs, bribery, equality, women rights and unlawfulness are bigger problems in our society then brothels and alcohal. Lets get to grass root problems. Be it conservative or liberal nobody wants to see exploitation of poor or orphan girls. Its the socioeconomic condition that has to change, which will change our behaviour. Middle-class wake up before its too late, stop being mohajir, punjabi, sindhi, shia or sunni start being Pakistani. If Pakistan goes down, we all go down. We want mullahs to call for a jihad against poverty, illetracy and discrimination.

  208. Imran Qureshi says:
    July 14th, 2007 12:42 pm

    Extremely sad what happened in Red Mosque and I condemn the use of excessive force. Had there been children of elite class, no one would have considered storming the Masjid and Madrassah. But thes were children from the poorest class which are no better than insects. They and their families have no voice So there is no sympathy.

    There were hard liners and may be terrorists inside, we have no sympathy with them, but there were women and children also and they got killed. These were “innocent” and my heart cries over their death.

    I am an engineer, 42 years old, married with 4 kids earning around one hundred and fifty thousands every month. Now I am mature. But when I was 20 or younger, my opinion was based on what I heard from elders like father, teacher or uncles. I hated Bhutto because they hated Bhutto (they are pro Jammat Islami). When I formed my own views, I found him the greatest leader after Jinah. My views changed about many things in life as I matured.

    The boys and girls inside Mosque and Madarassah were immature. They had yet to form their own views. They believed only what they were told. They were given wrong concepts about religion, life and Jihad. If I would have been there at that age, I might have done the same what they did and believed the same what they believed and died with them.

    Died with them!!! I would have died. Died. I. What a horror.

    A person like me who is considered to be open minded and progressive would have died with those militants provided I had the same circumstances.

    So that is why I believe most of them are innocent. They are our kids. They are victims of this system. They are victims of mullahism. They are victims of military dictatorship. They are victims of political plans of Musharraf.

    How these innocent children are converted to human bombs. Why they are sent to these madarassahs, the problem lies in this system. Where every month hundreds commit suicide due to economical problems. The problem is in out political and economic system.

  209. Stranger says:
    July 14th, 2007 4:36 pm

    A very interesting tradition of Holy Prophet:

    [quote]Ali (RA) related that Prophet of Allah (SAW) said ‘soon a time will dawn upon mankind when there will be nothing left in Islam but its name only and nothing in Quran but its (written) words only. The mosques will be full (of people) but empty of righteous guidance, their clergy will be the worst creation under the sky, divisive movements (Fitna) will rise from them and return to them’.[/quote]

    [Mishkat, Book of Ilm, Al-Fasl III, page 38 and Kanz-al-Ummal page 6 of 43]

  210. Raja says:
    July 14th, 2007 6:02 pm

    Too bad this does not come on Western TV – first 15 secs

  211. Stranger says:
    July 14th, 2007 9:02 pm
  212. thanos says:
    July 14th, 2007 11:35 pm

    Wrote them, appears to have helped arm and train the students…

  213. Viqar Minai says:
    July 15th, 2007 1:36 am

    A very thoght rovoking piece by Robert Jensen.
    Many one-dimensional thinkers could benefit from it.

    Lessons from the Lal Masjid Tragedy:

  214. OBSERVER says:
    July 15th, 2007 3:01 am

    Must say it seems like all the commenters here are superhuman smart. They all seem to know exactly what is on the minds of Mush, Bush, Mullahs, and everyone else including other commenters. Amazing superhuman powers you all have!

  215. Imran Qureshi says:
    July 15th, 2007 7:58 am

    The action of Mush against Lal Masjid is equal to the person who killed his own sons and daughters.

    Most of the dead ones boys and girls were under 12. Yet some say that it was the only way to treat this desease.

    I pray a screaming and painful death for Mush for what he has done.

  216. July 15th, 2007 8:44 am
  217. Stranger says:
    July 15th, 2007 8:48 am

    This is the answer;

    “…their clergy will be the worst creation under the sky, divisive movements (Fitna) will rise from them and return to them’”

  218. July 15th, 2007 11:14 am

    Stranger, do you have kids in your family or your own?

  219. Stranger says:
    July 15th, 2007 11:31 am

    May be…but I don’t hand weapons in their hand and teach them to go kill others. I suspect this will only get them in trouble.

  220. MQ says:
    July 15th, 2007 11:48 am

    Musharraf was wrong, not because he ordered the storming of Lal Masjid-Hafsa complex, but because he dragged his feet for too long in confronting the tide of hatred spilling over from some madrassas and mosques. He was late not by few months, but by several years.

    Residenst of Islamabad would recall that in early 2004, fired by the sermons of the Ghazi brothers, the students of Jamia Faridia (an affiliate of Hafsa) rampaged through the Melody Market in Islamabad attacking video shops and setting fire to the only cinema house in the capital. They were protesting the murder of Maulana Azam Tariq who had been gunned down earlier, presumably by his sectarian rivals. Since the students had been brainwashed into believing that movies spread obscenity in society, they found the cinema house and the people associated with it a fit target for their rage. When the young chowkidar of the cinema house tried to escape the burning building, the protesters threw brickbats at him blocking his escape. The poor young man died inside the smoke-filled building.

    It is then when Musharraf should have acted. Instead, his emissaries, the Q leaguers, continued to appease the Ghazi brothers — pampering and inflating their egos.

    ‘A stitch in time saves nine’ may be an old and tired cliché but it is true even today. If we fail to mend the tear immediately, when it’s already pretty late, very soon the whole garment, which is Pakistan, will be in tatters.

  221. Stranger says:
    July 15th, 2007 12:43 pm


    It looks like the lal mosque was a turning point for Pakistan. The real enemies of Pakistsan and Islam are beginning to show themselves. The pakistan taleban, the ideology that feeds it is indeed the enemy that needs to be eliminated.

    Its foundation is a deobandi/wahabi/salafi hybrid that corrupts week minds and feeds this nihilistic version of religion for what purpose.. so that brainwashed cadres can commit suicide whilst killing hundreds of innocents!!
    The majority of peace loving Pakistani’s will eventually wake up to this evil and confront both its terror, and its false ideology!! God Willing!

  222. July 15th, 2007 12:53 pm

    Strangers, so according to you, these 15 and 17 years girls had weapons and killed others?who others? soldiers? or its just you are in mood of trolling?

    I believe that ignorance is bliss but too much ignorance is curse. I also recall a misra which I read somewhere:
    Huway tum dost jiskay, dushman uska asmaan kion ho .

    the prophet(saw) was known to love kids even kids of pagans and He(saw) never showed anger to those kids just because their elders were torturing them. Your sick response just prove my point of view about liberals that they are not lesser evil. If mullahs whom you hate don’t practice Islam then you also proved that liberals are also sign of anti-Islamic force on face of earth. Thanks for proving my point.

    Since I have feeling that you don’t have any kid or maybe not married yet. I pray that you become dad of a girl who then become female teacher of some Islamic madrassah and spread word of Islam. The orignal Islam not some “fashionable” and “innovative” islam which is spread by several cults today. For you it might be some “Bad-dua”. My wish is not impossible, When Allah could give us a prophet from pharaoh’s palace then why can’t he give a female religious teacher for some madrassah for Ummah. *grin*

  223. Qadir says:
    July 15th, 2007 1:13 pm

    I will not speak for ‘Strangers’ but I can say have a daughter and I will be happy if she becomes a teacher to spread teh word of Islam… But CERTAINLY NOT in a den of sin and munafiqs like the Lal Masjid…. I will be very disturbed if she gets brainwashed by a buynch of criminals like Abdul Rashid and other and is used for kidnappings, extortions, etc. I don’t thin we shoudl wish on anyone’s children to become hostages with people like this!!!!

  224. Stranger says:
    July 15th, 2007 1:44 pm

    Certainly these Ghazi Maulanas are to be blamed for the whole fiasco. They killed ranger/police officials without provocation even though government was extremely lenient to them up to that point, too lenient. Once the line was crossed government had no choice but to take some action. If government had succumbed to these terrorists just because they are holding some children then its incentive for every terrorist in the world to come over, hold our children hostage, and do whatever under their cover. Government acted within law and shariat. If any innocent died then their blood is squarely on the hands of ghazi brothers duo who put the children in that situation.

    Understandably these lal masjid supporters here show no remorse for cold blooded murder of the law enforcement officials by the lal masjid terrorists as their support for al masjid anti-Pakistan terrorism is greater than their support for Pakistan.

  225. Stranger says:
    July 15th, 2007 2:02 pm

    We don’t see these lal masjid supporters here show remorse for cold blooded murder of the law enforcement officials by the lal masjid terrorists. Why? Weren’t they children of someone, Muslim, Pakistani, Human?

    Obviously these guys have no sympathy for human lives children or no children. The whole purpose is to use this to blackmail government and take focus away from the unprovoked killings by lal masjid guys before any operation began.

  226. Sophaeyyah says:
    July 15th, 2007 2:17 pm

    I have read all the posts and it makes me so sad to see all this. I dont need to say anything about the reality of this operation to anyone. Anyone who still thnks that govt was right shd get more informed and shd know the views of Dr. Shahid Masood, Hamid Mir and Ansar Abbasi about it. I am not going to argue on that as anyone who has got a bit of common sense can see that it was all a cold blooded massacre. I m not going to argue on that.

    What is bugging me is the thought and realization that at last WAR ON TERROR has entered our borders. I am horrified at this. I couldnt hav imagined this ever. We were the bloody ALLIES. I was thinking the third victim to be either IRAN or SYRIA until today when there is a strong indication of military operation in Swat. There are suicide bombings everywhere and ppl on both sides are shaheeds. I am weeping for those innocent soldiers who have to pay for the follies of their GENERAL. And then I wonder about that suicide bomber. His son, brother or loved one must have died in Wana, Waziristan or Bajaur. All in the name of WAR ON TERROR. We helped in this na! We are the ALLIES and suddenly we are turning into a victim. We forgot that the fire which we are starting in our neighbour can cross our border.

    And here we are. One is a so-called moderate and yet he cant tolerate his fellow whose views are different from his. Isnt it also a form of extremism. Then there are those who were being praised, were da heroes just a decade back, the great mujahideens and all of a sudden they are being labelled TERRORISTS so we dnt wnt them here anymore. At no cost. Where should they go??? TELL ME??? We were the ones who made them. They are our brothers and if they have their views then it doesnt make them less Pakistanis. They have as much rights as us even if our views dnt match. We just cant go and ELIMINATE them ( a word being used by DG ISPR).

    Now lets think whats happening to us. Who is wrong??? Think please. Agar Pakistan hoga tau hi hum secular hongay ya phir extremist……….jab Pakistan khud hi khatre mai par jai tau…………..???? I am seeing Pakistan and its no different than IRAQ. There is US supported govt. There is so-called WAR ON TERROR ( anyone who is on the wrong side of general is a terrorist and that includes our great CJ as well) , then there is insurgency in the tribal belt and Swat and there are suicide bombings on govt buildings and security personnel. Lal Masjid was the theatre that US needed and our general once again provided that. Military operation in Swat…….. Gorrilla war starting in the mountainous region with shaheeds on both sides……more suicide attacks……… more destruction ………. arent we headed towards a road to destruction???

    Lal Masjid was peaceful till 6 months back. And our nice PM tells us that this operation was planned 6 months back. So what prompted these ppl who were right about their stand on the shahadat of MASJID E HAMZA to take law into their hands. Was he the same person being called Munnafik on CAPITAL TALK??? And was he the same person who provided them with those 14 weapons???

    My dear friends!!! its not a clash between two idealogies if u think so. Dnt fall a prey to this. The first one was being propagated by a General to prolong his regime though in the end his friends discarded him when he was not wanted anymore. And the second one is the one being adopted by our current General all in the name of good of people of Pakistan. Dnt we have brains??? Cant we see??? Our society is a peaceful one be it Mullahs ( dnt argue everyone knws who is behind the establishment of Sipahe sahaba, lashkare jhangvi, taliban and alikes) or otherwise. But its those mighty generals who bring chaos. Look what Saddam did to his country and it makes me sad because we are heading the same way. Why do they forget the end of Saddam??? why dnt they learn a lesson once for all??? His era has ended but what it gave IRAQ??? and I am sad because my country is heading there all in the name of WAR ON TERROR. Once again we are fighting a PROXY WAR. But last time it was against one giant for another giant at another land. This time its for the same giant against us on OUR OWN LAND. Wake up u ppl before its too late. We have already thrown one of our own ppl’s home ( JAMIA HAFSA) into fire but who knws this fire may reach our doorsteps next time. I am a sad person today as I knw in Swat troops are on a high alert. Again they have gone for no operation but ONE UNKNOWN BULLET FROM AN UNKNOWN PLACE will be fired and then………….. just like in LAL MASJID. I am always scared by this one bullet.

    One general has already used us IN THE NAME OF ALLAH, please dnt let this one destroy us all IN THE NAME OF WAR ON TERROR. They do it just to prolong their regimes but leaving their impact for generations to come. Lets not hate our own ppl. If someone is Maulvi or not Maulvi, he is a Pakistani. Being either doesnt lessen his rights. Lal Masjid operation was wrong, an attempt by our general to please his ALLIES. And it wont end up this thing but will ignite all such happenings. When Wana, Waziristan, Bajaur bombings happened; we kept silent. It was not happening to our loved ones. So what if there was someone killed. If they dnt follow enlightened moderation, should they deserve to be killed??? And then those helpless ppl thought of registering their anger and protest in a way…………… by blowing themselves up. Now we ask WHY??? Because we dnt feel safe in our markets our community any more, so we ask WHY??? Did anyone went on to listen to their version of the story. But why should we bother??? They are terrorists. Who tells us so??? US. Who are they to decide??? Like idiots we are again becoming pawns in da game. Previously they said DO JIHAD tau we said LABAIK and now they are dictating us WHO IS WHO and WHAT IS WHAT about our own brothers. Lets say they have done something wrong against US. Even if true, so why do we care??? If they can go on and honour our culprits with SIR titles, so why should we care. Just to prove that we are moderates. What good do we get out of it??? They will help us by supporting our dictators. By not helping democracy prevail. HOW COOL!!!

    In LAL MASJID TRGEDY the same happenned. Ok! they took law in their hands but does that mean everyone needed to be wiped out the way it was done??? Where is our ‘Main bhi Pakistan hoon Tu bhi Pakistan hai’ spirit??? We shd tell the govt that to kill anyone extra judiciously, no matter how wrong they are; is wrong. Thats all. If we dnt help these ppl get justice, if we dnt ask the govt WHY, one day we might be blown up in some busy corner of a street by someone who dint even get the chance to bury his loved one. Then we wont be able to ask WHY???

    Please dont cultivate extremism so that we dnt have to reap it. Coz today I am thinking of Saddam and look what he gave his country??? massacres and genocides, mass graves, suicide bombings, sectarian voilence, war against terror, friendly invaders, hostile insurgents……………..and I weep for Pakistan…………………………………………again one bullet……………………………one more operation……………………………….more sufferings………………….more suicide bombings……………………………more destruction……………………………They are right…………………………………..POWER CORRUPTS and ABSOLUTE POWER CORRUPTS ABSOLUTELY. One man desperately clinging to his crown has led us on this way…………………………………………..Lets stay UNITED cos maulvis or no maulvis; we are Pakistanis and we will not let them divide us so that they can rule forever. We dnt want to fight one more PROXY WAR just to help a general prolong his reign !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! No more PAWNS IN THE GAME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  227. Lahori says:
    July 15th, 2007 2:37 pm

    This childish propaganda that this whole operation was somehow done for Bush or the West has to be put to a lie. Just because we all dislike Bush the propagandists are trying to associate this with Bush so people oppose this operation too. What they are doing is EXACTLY what Bush did to sell the Iraq war… he lied to associate that was with Al Qaeda so that if people beleievd those two would were linked then they would support the Iraq War. Now the maulanas and extremist are doing their propaganda exactly the same way… convince people that this was done for Bush and his War on Terror and since people don’t like those things they will also not like this operation… same type fo propaganda and lies that Bush used to sell the Iraq War…. I guess there is even les difference between American conservatives and our conservatives than I thought… both like violent solutions and both deal in lies

  228. Lahori says:
    July 15th, 2007 2:44 pm

    Anyone who has looked at US newspapers or media recently it is clear that the US did not like the operation or the way it was done. Most editorials here have been critical of it. We should stop trying to find demons for our own problems outside. There is MUCH that the US (specially US conservatives like Bush) have to answer for but some problems we created for ourselves. This operation was done not because US wanted it (if it was then it should have been done much earlier) but because the Lal MAsjid criminals and thugs had gotten out of hand. The molvis who had tried and failed to stop the creation of Pakistan were now destabilizing and eating it from the inside like termites. They were attacking and killing Pakistanis and attaching the soverignty of Pakistan. This was an ATTCK ON PAKISTAN and had to be dealt with. It shodul have been dealt with much much earlier and had we not had a military dictator and intyelligence agencies that had IN THE PAST worked with these dispicable enemies of Islam (Lal Masjid killers) then it might have been done earlier. But, I say, better late than never!

  229. Qadeer says:
    July 15th, 2007 2:47 pm

    Brilliant point Lahori. I had also fallen for this and had begun saying it was for the west. But you are right, this propaganda is just like Bush linking Iraq to Al Qaeda. Thank you, I have truly learnt something today. You are right, I was wrong.

  230. Dan says:
    July 15th, 2007 2:52 pm

    Adnan Siddiqui…

    you are living proof that talk is really….really cheap..and that a Mullah will always…without exception set fire to his own house always…and that a Mullah is not the same burden as the rest of us to speak the truth…

    Mullahs…this sickness…this plague upon us..must be eliminated…and with extreme prejudice…

    can you please take the time to answer the following:

    1. why would you defend the defender of Mullah Azam Tariq? the same Azam Tariq who had the blood of Muslims on his hands and who continuously called for the muder of Pakistan’s entire shia Population…?why?

    2. Why would you defend Mullahs the NWFP assembly say Fateha for Zarqawi…when he too had the blood of innumerable Muslims on his hands and who also called for the murder of Iraqs shias? why?

    Do you subscribe to that type of thinking?

    As I said…talk is cheap and I do believe that the truth is a currency that you just cannot afford!

    Pakistan Zaindabad..

  231. TOLERANT says:
    July 15th, 2007 2:59 pm

    Is it possible to preach tolerance by being intolerant? I suspect not.

  232. N says:
    July 15th, 2007 5:47 pm

    Read the following column by Dr. Shahid Masood

    “Every country has an army, whereas Pakistani Army has a country”.

  233. July 15th, 2007 6:09 pm

    The Mullah preaches JIHAD and understands nothing of Islam or Jihad – it brainwashs a little kid to go forward and become a shaheed whilst the mullah sits in a lap of luxury.

    Why are people not screaming about the deaths the mullahs have been responsible for – not only in lal masjid but also those who were sent to fight the americans and the afghans? where are they – maybe because they think the mullah knows islam?

    What Islam does this mullah preach that instills hate, fear, calling everyone kafirs and learning to kill in the name of Allah SWT?

    What Islam does this Mullah preach that says that the Last Prophet Muhammad PBUH told him to kill and fight and cause fitna!?

    Yet the Mullah is defended and supported and encouraged – this is a battle not just for the soul of the Pakistan but the cause of Islam – we must defend our religion and use all available means to expose and fight the fitna of mullahism – a mullahism that never belonged in Islam in the first place!

    I think this is a Jihad – The Mullah causes division and hate within muslims and the nation and we must engage in this Jihad against Mullahism

    Pakistan Zindabad!

  234. faraz says:
    July 15th, 2007 10:47 pm

    Well reaction to lal masjid killings in NWFP (80 security personal dead in last 3 days) reminds me of Hamid Karzai.

    He said “Pakistan is feeding a snake which can bite Pakistan too”.

    We thought that this sanke will not bite us but Afghanistan but we were wrong.

    I think on one hand we need to court moderate religious elements and try to listen their complain. On other hands we should finish Waziristan show once for all. I dont think it is problem of “fire-power”. It is issue of political will. The peace accord is not simply working.

  235. faraz says:
    July 15th, 2007 11:52 pm

    CJ, Well I think the snake you are talking about is a danger to Karachi and can be controlled in future. The snake I am taking about is not mullahs or MMA.

    Snake is OBL and his fellows Taliban who are fighting iraq and phalistine fight on pakistani soil. This snake can turn Pakistan into Iraq. Second it is matter of time. I think mush because of his uniform don’t have political will to “silence” this snake. But I am sure BB will do the job. If not then USA will cross border and will do job by itself and that will be even more costly.

    We simply can not co-exist wil OBL fellows and their Taliban.

  236. ahmad says:
    July 16th, 2007 12:42 am

    What do we know for fact: A bunch of Mullahs ran an operation from a mosque whereby people from the mosque deliver vigilante type of street justice by abducting people on the pretext that they doing illegal stuff.In turn the Mullahs Guarantee the followers heaven for their deeds.

    Funnily, even though women in general are not considered or treated with equality, they are used to hijack a library and then brandish arms and threaten shop owners..

    The Mullahs that called for an Islamic state and jehad illegally accumulate arms and ammunition in the mosque where there are many women and children.Thus making it an unsafe environment for the women and children.

    So does islam allow you to do the following:
    1) Abduct people on the basis of assumption
    2) Terrorize any other human being or make it unsafe for them?
    3) Convict anyone without solid grounds? Islam is probably the only religion that gives you the right whereby you are truly innocent until proven guilty. Accusations alone are punishable.So how was the vigilante justice islamic?
    3) In which “ghazwa” were women sent out to fight the war?
    4) Did Khalid bin waleed , Omar bin khattab, or anyone of them ever leave the sides of there comrades in a veil?
    5) HOw can anyone guarantee you jannat? Isn’t that God’s job? in other words are you trying to play god?

    So if much of what the mullahs did does not have any precedence is it islamic?

    On the other hand, we have an illegal martial law that has professed to further the cause of the people, by having a weak and ineffective “democratically” elected parliament, and openly threatening Judicial system that had already been castrated by the PCO.

    The military has alot of good people in it, but unfortunately , the militar-ized econo-political conglomerate of the Pakistan armed forces also has little , if at all any credibility left.I am not sure whether they are a political party that is armed. An army that is political. Or an economic monster like a white elephant, that is both

    We, Pakistanis, are not only witnesses to a tragedy we are all an accomplice to what has happened. We are the guilty party as well as the victims. We have failed our ideals and all that is left is a dying hope for change…

  237. July 16th, 2007 12:57 am

    Qadir sahab, who isn’t brainwashed? I have literally got engaged hundreds of yanks online in past 5 years who always demonstrated ignorance about Islam and EVEN about their own religions(christianity,judaism). The core issue with those yanks was that they learnt about everything from propaganda channels like FOX,CNN,CNBC etc who always projected one-sided point of view. The reason I mentioned yanks because they are considered part of advanced society which is equipped with all technologies and facilities.

    hamid karzai is right, we feeded Him who later become pain in neck for us. According to one ISI official, karzai was a CHAI WALA at ISI HQ :-)

  238. July 16th, 2007 8:32 am

    Musharraf’s Foreign Militants


  239. mazhar butt says:
    July 16th, 2007 8:49 am

    I am quite flabbergasted to read the views submitted on this page. Most of these are vehemently against the Mullahs as if they were not homo sapiens. Some friends have passed utmost derogatory remarks about Mullahs as well as affairs at the Madressahs. I do not at all support their biased opinions . They are simply trying to derogate their own religion and its teachings under the cover of Mullas. If some mullahs are evil this does not go to prove that all mullahs are evil. This also doesnt prove that if a mullah is wrong the teachings of our religion are also wrong. I say lets not follow the mullah but only th e teachings of our religion, Islam. I’m sure if you tried to follow its teachings
    you will surely be termed as a ‘radical’ and end up the same way the lal masjid guys did. Pakistan which was gained as a separate homeland for muslims has lost its meaning and all that we were taught in our schools was bull sh** . The two-nation theory has decomposed into rubbish. Pakistan and its constitution are fake, its governing body is fake, people are fake. With so much ‘fakeness’ around I believe whatever the lal mosque folks did was obviously justified…….the use of indiscriminate brutal force by the govt was utterly wrong. Why then talk about mullahs ,,,,,,dont follow them, hate them, exterminate them but dont shun your own religion and its teachings. The holy Quran is for every muslim , why dont you read it yourself and act. Blaming others is so easy
    but it’s not possible for you to see your own nose !

  240. faraz says:
    July 16th, 2007 10:35 am

    Adnan. Hamid Karzai is just showing us the mirror. We are still on same path. We still think these taliban and millitant are some one else problem.

    One day when Afghan war will end, these ppl will bite us back with full force of their jaws. What do you think. Will these ppl will go away into blues or will they strike back. They will even target MMA leaders in near future you bet.

  241. July 16th, 2007 12:17 pm

    Ahmed Karzai is simply a stooge who do not have authority but have US security for his protection. He is alwayz given written statement by masters so plz dont waste time on such personalities…..

  242. Akif Nizam says:
    July 16th, 2007 12:52 pm

    Here are a couple more nuggets I came across which are worth sharing:

    1) While the occupation of Jamia Hafsia was in effect by
    the Maulanas and they had committed abductions,
    vandalism and open suicide and acid-throwing threats,
    the Honarable Ambassador of Saudi Arabia visited the
    Ghazi brothers and assured them of his support for
    their cause. What a shock !!

    2) Just today, the leader of the opposition in the
    National Assembly, Maulana Fazlur Haque issued a
    carefully worded statement where he suggested that
    “Pakistan is not the right place for suicide bombings”,
    thus suggesting to this Jihadi brethren that other
    places are still okay if if tickles your fancy.

  243. Bushra says:
    July 16th, 2007 1:35 pm

    How many lies Abdul Rashid told the people to incite them. Remember his lie about moe than three hundred girls are lying dead here! Or that there are only 14 klashnikovs when they were armed to the teeth.

  244. Stranger says:
    July 16th, 2007 1:47 pm

    Independent Citizen, remember that once the lal masjid guys, taliban, JI and most other religious groups were also stooges of US when it suited them and dollars came to get children of poor killed for US’s jihad. Just because the customer has picked other stooges, doesn’t mean these religious groups have not been through what they accuse Aunti Shamim of.

  245. faraz says:
    July 16th, 2007 2:13 pm

    idependent citizen, how you will react if Afghanistan prepare this bombers and send them to attack Islamabad?

    There are safe heavens in pakistani soil and by destablishing Aghanistan, we are risking Pakistan’s futute too. Right now these taliban are demanding not to touch any other lal masjid. Their demands will increase with time.

  246. July 16th, 2007 3:22 pm

    pakistan is not a right place for suicide bombings – mullah fazl ur rehman…

    oh and what is the right place?

    these political mullahs need to be exorcised from pakistan – can we just not throw them over the border in afghanistan – oops sorry i mean… damn where can we deport them to? hey how about madagascar? way away from pakistan…

    oh and if in the process they wish to suicide bomb themselves (they will if they can start calling each other kafirs like they usually do) then they should be encouraged.

    Pakistan Zindabad

  247. A.H. says:
    July 16th, 2007 3:35 pm

    Yes, the real question now is how Lal Masjid will play out with these terrorists in the Nortrern areas.

  248. baber says:
    July 16th, 2007 3:53 pm

    If the coldwar ghosts are haunting Washington then the ghosts of Kashmir are haunting us here in Islamabad and NWFP. Does anybody have a number of youngster died in the name of Jihad in Kashmir?
    We reap what the military sows. I never believed in Karma, but have started too.

  249. S Akhtar says:
    July 16th, 2007 4:59 pm

    The Lal masjid assault is a great victory for Media control and shows how Govt. used media to its advantage. Everything reported about Lal Masjid came from Govt sources. All the bodies were buried at night. In some cases, women and men were buried in the same place. The picture of a so called foriegner has turned out to be fake and BBC has the picture of the father. I don’t think anything reported is true.

  250. July 17th, 2007 1:00 am

    Anyone who has looked at US newspapers or media recently it is clear that the US did not like the

    The US govt is run by people in DC rather Washington post or NYTImes. The same US media even wrote against Israel(read USA) Hezbollah(read IRAN) war. Seymour hersh wrote classic article on same issue but govt follow something else.

    Mush once said right that US govt doesn’t take dictation from the media and they have their own policies.

  251. July 17th, 2007 8:26 am

    They are simply trying to derogate their own religion and its teachings under the cover of Mullas

    mazhar butt sb, i came across this translation in the morning and it’s very relevant to answer you:

    He will say, “Remain despised therein and do not speak to Me.Indeed, there was a party of My servants who said, ‘Our Lord, we have believed, so forgive us and have mercy upon us, and You are the best of the merciful.’But you took them in mockery to the point that they made you forget My remembrance, and you used to laugh at them. Indeed, I have rewarded them this Day for their patient endurance – that they are the attainers [of success].” (Quran 23:108-111)

    So let them enjoy!. Who says QUran is not compatible with modernity? *grin*

  252. mazhar butt says:
    July 17th, 2007 10:37 am

    Adnan Siddiqui,,,,,,,,Was there any need to relate this verse to the point in issue? Modernity is nothing but advance in material sciences. Any religion is not responsible for failure or success of scientific growth. It is the environmental influence which provides the impetus. Muslims are lagging behind in science because of a hypocritical ambiance self-created and self-inflicted by them. You cannot blame any religion including Islam for the failures of its adherents

  253. Kruman says:
    July 17th, 2007 12:59 pm

    A bomb blast in the kachehri on the occassion of CJP’s address to Islamabad bar.

    For live updats tune in to

  254. Dan says:
    July 17th, 2007 2:18 pm

    Suicide Mullahs struck in Islamabad a couple hours ago….
    did you see the body of the woman who was killed? they were showing that continusously…..
    she probably had kids…a husband…parents at least…they will never see her again….
    the body was mangled beyond recongnition…
    I wonder…are these bearers of misrey and sickness the ‘true faithful’ that some people keep talking about?…

  255. Akif Nizam says:
    July 17th, 2007 2:20 pm

    13 more killed in another suicide blast ! I guess it’s the work of another intelligent youth disenchanted with the breakdown of institutions in Pakistan ( as the analysts explain it). Amazes me how readily we are able to produce person upon person willing to blow themselves up to make political statements.

    Of course it has nothing to do with the indoctrination that goes on in the madrasahs. God forbid someone points a finger there.

  256. July 17th, 2007 2:45 pm

    mazhar, but ground reality is that it’s the religion which is blamed for every thing. In the movement of church and state separation, it was religion which was blamed rather people who were running state affairs.

  257. mazhar butt says:
    July 17th, 2007 3:45 pm

    Adnan,,,,,you have repeated and reiterated the saying of someone who said that religion was the root of all evils (or something like that) . True , there are controversies in matters of religious beliefs and it has never been possible for humans to remove them. This anomaly is not typical of Islam but every religion, even the small religion such as sikhism which is also split into sects and you must have witnessed the bloody clash between two of their sects in Amritsar recently.

    State will seldom bear the blame as it has power. The weaker force viz religion has thus to suffer the brunt. You could see this aspect in the recent Red Mosque incident. The irrational approach of the Red Mosque and Jamia Hafza led it to bloody catastrophe at the hands of the State. If you go through the history you will note that almost all the wars took place for acquiring power and control over others or resources or territories belonging to others. This is what the West , the USA is doing. Religion, ofcourse is a big stumbling block in their way and these powers are doing everything to overturn it.

    What i really mean to say is that we need not follow any mullah to understand and follow our religion. If we can read and understand our Book we could do better in matters of religion. Also, it doesnt behove of a muslim to mock at his own religion just because it is incorrectly or wrongly interpretted by any mullah or mufti….it’s just like someone abusing his own parents. It would be better for those unhappy with Islam to quit it rather than derogate it or spread aspersions over its teachings. I do realize that some of Quranic edicts may seem archaic but rather than taking them literally one must use commonsense and try to get at its symbolic meaning. For example, it states punishment by stoning,,,,,here the ultimate goal is to kill a criminal ,,,,so why fight over the manner of execution? why not use the electric chair or the gas chamber? In all events the criminal would be got rid off.
    When it comes to cutting hands of a thief, the hands should be cut as their is apparently no other alternate for ”cutting hands”,,,,,,what’s the harm in it??

  258. July 17th, 2007 4:02 pm

    What i really mean to say is that we need not follow any mullah to understand and follow our religion. If we can read and understand our Book we could do better in matters of religio

    I disagree with this statement. As I mentioned several time that religion is just like any other knowledge, the difference is that religion is actually knowledge about Allah and associated things. Just like we need teachers in schools and colleges to teach us course subjects,similarly we need mentors/alims to teach us about religion. Without a mentor,one can feel difficulty to understand things. Islam is easy but not as easy that one can just interpret it according to his own interest. The famous Iranian apostate Ali Sina tried to study Islam himself and then he got confused and concluded that Islam is fake thus everything associated with it therefore we must need a teacher to guide us. yes it’s our responsibility to find out genuine teacher and Allah has given us “Khopri” to make difference between who’s good for us and who’s not.

  259. Zaki says:
    July 17th, 2007 4:39 pm

    Prof. Najam you had very good article in The News today. really first balanced analysis I have read of this. Unfortunately now with Islamabad blast some of your fears have become real.

  260. SKK says:
    July 17th, 2007 5:44 pm

    Adil, great article in The News today and good that they also plug your blog each week ;-)

  261. July 18th, 2007 1:26 am

    in which section do you find his articles?

  262. 1.21 Jigowats says:
    July 18th, 2007 7:17 am

    For a sober reflection on the Lal Masjid debacle, see:

  263. mazhar butt says:
    July 18th, 2007 1:39 pm

    Adnan,,,,who says the Quran is only about ”God and associated things”–Man, it’s a code of life !
    If you insist on learning the holy Quran from teachers then you will have to decide which one of the 4 sunni and 12 shiite imams you would like to follow. These numbers exclude teachers from other muslim sects. Nevertheless, I do realize difficulty in comprehending certain verses and chapters of the holy Quran without the guidance of a learned person but I don’t think it is mandatory to follow any specific teacher if you can read the Book as well as understand Arabic and know Islamic history. Well, to start with you can leave out the tough passages and try to comprehend the simple and straightforward tenets of Islam. There is hardly any possibility to shift from the fundamentals unless someone tries to give it his own interpretation for some unknown or mysterious reason. The existence of so many sects and schools of thought in Islam is basically due to these ”teachers” alone and one should avoid them following blindly.

  264. Jamhoor_khan says:
    July 18th, 2007 2:01 pm

    The whole suicide bombing report is a hoax. It was a timed device planted by the agencies to scare the judiciary and the lawyers.

    The lawyers, PPP leaders as of today are all pointing fingers at the government now.

    Sadly the media has become a mouthpeice for the government.

  265. July 18th, 2007 2:33 pm

    Adnan,,,,who says the Quran is only about

  266. azm says:
    August 2nd, 2007 2:21 am

    I hope that the fanatics who had desecrated the Lal Masjid by turning it into an adda of ghunda gardi will be tried n public. The extremissts in the mosque attacked Paksitan as well as Islam with their actions.

  267. Liaquat Ali says:
    August 2nd, 2007 9:18 pm

    To AZM,

    You called lal-majid people “fanatics who had desecrated the Lal Masjid”, have you ever know any of them, have you ever looked at what they were asking for, simply to apply law of the state which is broken by the governement itself.

    They thought Pakistani people would stand for justice, that was their mistake how wrong thye are. Pakistani people deserve heavy hand of corrupt army and other thieves who thrive in goverment. I truely say goverment in that did right thing no justice should ever be doen to a Pakistani everywhere, they deserv it.

  268. Waheed says:
    August 2nd, 2007 9:44 pm

    Liaquat Ali, what lal masjid guys did was completely against shariat. They had no right to take law into their own hands and there is consensus of ulema on that.

    And no we don

  269. August 11th, 2007 1:17 pm


  270. Aamir Ali says:
    August 29th, 2007 12:44 pm

    Liaquat Ali:

    The Lal Masjid gangsters were committing crimes while holding weapons in their hands. What law or Shariat is there in their actions?

    I am personally very happy that the SSG assaulted the compound and killed every last fanatic inside.

    Mullah Badmashi Murdabad.

  271. sohail sheikh says:
    November 20th, 2007 11:14 am

    i only dont understand the stand on the whole matter of emergency and the removal of the justices and the ban on media by the MQMand the only thing MR ALTAF HUSSAIN SAID IS THE LATHI CHARGE ON MEDIA IS CONDEMNED being a true supporter of democracy and the champion of the poor class cant he call a nation wide strike on these matters .

  272. December 19th, 2007 2:30 am

    The mushrarf do very wrong and i hope AlLah give in punishment of this work Inshallah

  273. April 28th, 2008 10:02 am

    This happens when you give leadership value to the mullah. This poor guy must have given his son to the madrassa trusting the ghazi brothers to be learned men of wisdom. He didn’t know any better.

  274. saad says:
    August 6th, 2008 2:14 am

    Wow wow wow. Our army got victorious by killing a thousand children and abducting many others. Now that is real courage to kill one of your own country men. I have seen on media and gained some insight from my fellow Muslims and Pakistanis that this LAL masjid was home to a lot of homeless and orphan children so it was a great thing to destroy such a holy thing. Holy not only in religion but also according to humanity.

    The state governed orphanages are not safe for women as there have been incidence of sex and gender abuse such as abduction and rape in these so called government safe areas for the minor gender. But when the society gives the solution with lal masjid and its secure premises for women, the bloody dictator hits them with chemical weapons. Ah may Allah give us some guidance and help the nation addicted with sex give some guidance and their leader be judged with .

  275. Aamir Ali says:
    October 28th, 2008 1:07 am


    before advising others, learn to accept facts as well. Lal Masjid had become a mafia center and its members were criminals who refused to change their ways. They got what they deserved.

    15 months on, nobody in Pakistan cares about the LM fools. Including the ones who screamed the loudest when the operation was being conducted.

  276. Farrukh says:
    January 1st, 2009 1:51 pm

    they were both wrong the people inside the masjid and govt. one cannot use masjid for fighting against there one muslim brothers. govt should have talk to them when they were 1st mislead and should not ever used force in Allahs house.

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