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Cricket and Islam: A Brewing Controversy

Posted on October 22, 2006
Filed Under >Adil Najam, Religion, Sports
131 Comments
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Adil Najam

According to a Reuters report (CricInfo version here) Pakistan cricket players have “been advised to strike a balance between religion and cricket.” This according to Dr. Nasim Ashraf, the new Chairman of the Pakistan Cricket Board (PCB).

The report goes on to say:

Since last year, the Pakistan team has made it a point to pray in public and hold religious gatherings in team hotels. Ashraf said in a television interview he did not believe there was any connection between Maulvism, ultra orthodox Muslims, and cricket. “There is no doubt their religious faith is a motivating factor in the team. It binds them together. But there should be balance between religion and cricket,” Ashraf said.



Captain Inzamam-ul-Haq, batsman Mohammad Yousuf, who converted to Islam from Christianity earlier this year and former leg-spinner Mushtaq Ahmed have been in the forefront of projecting a religious image of the team. Ashraf said he had no problems with the players saying their prayers regularly but he had told Inzamam that Islam does not allow the imposition of views on others.

“I have told him clearly that there should be no pressure on players who don’t pray regularly or any compulsion on them to do it under pressure,” he said. “I have told him there should be no perception among players that if they don’t pray they will not be in the team… He has assured me there is no pressure on anyone to do anything they don’t want to do. I have also told him players should get proper rest for their cricket,” Ashraf added.

The report does not come as a surprise (click on image to see story from Jang, 9 October), but it is still a bit of a shock.

I do not like the word ‘Maulvisim’. I do not know what it means, and whether that was the intent or not, it is likely to be seen as a slur and a coded attack. I worry greatly these days about an increasing tendency to use polarizing language, the use of which can only spell trouble in an already much-fractured society. I am hoping that it is a word coined by an over-eager Reuters reporter and not Dr. Nasim Ashraf.

I should add that I have known Doctor Sahib for some years. I know that personally he is a man of strong personal faith and religious conviction and for that reason alone I think he would be well suited to have discussions with the team on these issues in ways that others might not be able to. But such discussions are intensely personal and should remain private (but not secret). Please note that I am not calling for secrecy, but I do not think that Reuters wire services or television airwaves are the best medium for this conversation. I fear that in the glaring lights of the media circus , this important conversation will necessarily become polarized, simplistic, and accusatory and will degenerate towards crass finger-pointing, self-righteous chest-thumping, and loud but hollow sloganeering.

I should thank Adnan Siddiqi’s blog (here) for first alerting me to this brewing controversy. Since then I have tried to keep a tab on this issue. Today, Teeth Maestro also has a commentary on his blog (here). My own views on this stem from the very same logic that had influenced my views on the story about Habib Bank requiring employees to trim their beards which I had commented on in the very earliest weeks on this blog (here). The parallels between the two are strikingly similar, but so are the principles:

  • First, no one has the right to restrict anyone’s else’s right to personal expressions of belief and faith, no matter what that belief or faith might be.

It would be wrong, therefore, if PCB, ICC, or anyone else were to restrict the expression of personal faith by any set of players. Whether it is saying one’s prayers in public and in jamaat or growing a beard, that is a matter of personal choice. One’s inclusion in the team should not be a matter of whether one has (or does not have) facial hair. It should depend solely and only on one’s cricketing abilities. Despite the headline statement, a careful reading of the news item above suggests that the PCB is acknowledging that faith is a key “motivating factor” for this team and is not asking anyone to either restrict their beliefs or the expression of those beliefs. If it were ever to do so, it would be a matter of grave and serious concern indeed.

  • Second, and relatedly, no one has the right to impose their own religious beliefs on others through direct or indirect pressure.

It would be wrong, therefore, if senior players were somehow pressurizing or forcing teammates to adopt a particular behavior. To repeat what I have already said above: One’s inclusion in the team should not be a matter of whether one has (or does not have) facial hair. It should depend solely and only on one’s cricketing abilities. A careful reading of the news item above makes clear that Inzimam, at least, understands that there should be (and is) no such pressure. If any players were ever to feel pressurized by the religious beliefs of their team-mates or were made to feel that their continued inclusion in the team would depend on their praying habits (rather than their playing abilities), then – and only then – it would be a matter of grave and serious concern indeed.

My only hope right now is that the media circus – in Pakistan and abroad – will not sensationalize this important issue and force even greater fissures and polarizations than already exist. I fear that this hope will not be realized.

But let me also say that I have much greater confidence in Inzimam, his teammates and Dr. Nasim Ashraf and pray that they will resist the media’s provocations and will refuse to fall into petty bickering or sloganeering opportunities.

131 Comments on “Cricket and Islam: A Brewing Controversy”

  1. Owais Mughal says:
    October 22nd, 2006 2:42 am

    As long as players are not forced to pray it should be fine. If it is players’own choice then why not ? Players take motivation from different things e.g superstitions which are famous in cricket, spiritualism etc. If religion acts as a motivation for the team then I don’t see a problem there.
    But if the team is selected just on the criteria of who is more religious OR if religion becomes a criteria of selection then in my opinion it is wrong.

  2. TURAB says:
    October 22nd, 2006 3:32 am

    Deen bin Jabar , thats the true spirit of Islam.

    I trust the captain Inzi more than anyone else.

  3. Eidee Man says:
    October 22nd, 2006 4:59 am

    I agree with Adil’s comments. In addition, I atually think that Yousuf, Inzi, etc serve as good role models for those in Pakistan who are gravitating towards a more religious life. They are devout people who are also very good at their profession (well, most of the time :D).

  4. October 22nd, 2006 6:27 am

    [quote post="376"]hey are devout people who are also very good at their profession (well, most of the time[/quote]

    Unlike people in MMA who are neither good in religion nor in their profession[politics] ;)

    [quote post="376"]I am hoping that it is a word coined by an over-eager Reuters reporter and not Dr. Nasim Ashraf[/quote]

    Look we should quit the habbit of blaming others. When our own desieducated class use this term in Offensive way then those gora people still have right to make fun of it. Such people exist on this forum as well. Humay apna ghar k gandagi pehle saaf karni chahye phir mohallay waloun ya dosroun k ghar k khabar leyni chahye.

  5. Hassan says:
    October 26th, 2006 10:06 am

    Ref. to earlier comment, I just noticed there ARE a lot of marraige related ads on this site… what are you up to, ATP guyz, I thought at least one of yuo got married recently ;-) Are you trying to send us a message by selecting these ads :-)

  6. Yahya says:
    October 22nd, 2006 8:36 am

    Nothing wrong with praying, even better when praying together. But is praying for Allah (which requires total focus) not perhaps better done in seclusion than with media and public around and hence turning it into praying for media and public so to speak? Perhaps it is a political statement?

  7. CompletelyDesi says:
    October 22nd, 2006 9:45 am

    I think Dr. Nasim Ashraf went over the top when:

    a) He made such a statement which is indirectly depicts some Pakistani players as praying under duress. Such suspicion will do us no good especially if its from the top person of the cricket board and someone who is incharge of the human development in our country.

    b) When he spread these comments via wrong channels. This reminds me of Gen. Musharafs book that is clearly written for an American/western audience but dedicated to the people of Pakistan.

    There are many people who are not entirly happy with Inzimam but that picture up there just shows that the team is bonding together and a religious reason cannot be a wrong one. Also the fact that most Christians also make a cross sign when then score a fifty or some other big feat. So, I wonder why is it wrong if someone does a sajjadah to thank Allah ?

  8. Kashif says:
    October 22nd, 2006 9:52 am

    When Sri Lankan and Indian cricketers visit temples, they aren’t termed as ‘religious’ or asked by respective boards to separate religion from cricket. Religion is part of one’s life style and one should have complete freedom to express it. Unfortunately our enlightened moderated brown sahib shy away from religion, they would rather say “hi” than “Assalam Alaekum”. I think South African board is better than PCB for playing Hashim Amla, a practising muslim, in the side.

  9. Yahya says:
    October 22nd, 2006 11:55 am

    [quote comment="5004"]When Sri Lankan and Indian cricketers visit temples, they aren’t termed as ‘religious’ or asked by respective boards to separate religion from cricket.[/quote]

    Perhaps because unlike Sri Lankans and Indians they don’t visit a mosque instead make a big show of it in the middle of the cricket ground. Appears as showing off and making a statement instead of praying.

  10. Ahsan says:
    October 22nd, 2006 12:12 pm

    “There is no doubt their religious faith is a motivating factor in the team.”

    Interesting. To be good cricket players they find motivation in Islam. To be a good soldier and conquer Kargil they look at Islam for the motivation (jihad). To be successful in trade they seek their motivation (zakat!))in Islam. To be good rulers they seek guidence in Islam. To make more money again there is Islam (Islamic banking).To be good citizens they claim to follow Islamic teaching.

    With all this Islam, they are still backword people!
    Perhaps, I am blind and mistaken.

  11. Yahya says:
    October 22nd, 2006 12:25 pm

    OK, I think it is about “saray aam numaish” which was my point above.

    It is more respectable to use a room or enclosed area for this especially as they are so few and don’t need a large ground for prayer.

  12. Hassan says:
    October 22nd, 2006 12:53 pm

    Ahsan, I have no idea if you are or not blind. But on this you are certainly mistaken.

    People all over the world, including in sports, find motivation in their religion. Remember the movie ‘Chariots of Fire’? Many great athletes across the world find religion to be a motivating factor. American Football players routinely use religion as a motivating factor and also pray in public. Pakistani sportsmen have long had a tradition of doing sajda after making a goal or hitting a century. Soccer players will often cross their hearts in gratitude.

    Trying to ridicule a particular religion or the expression of a particular religion is hypocritical and bigoted. Saying one’s prayers is no different from American Football players kneeling in prayer at the beginning (and middle) of games right there on the field, or of countless other expressions of faith that athletes from all religions and country do all the time. Why force prayers into a ‘closet’ or be ashamed of it? It is wrong only when they force or put pressure on others to do the same.

    The real point has been made well in the original post. It is WRONG to impose one’s religion on others and it is WRONG to restrict others from their religion. That’s it and that’s all.

  13. October 22nd, 2006 12:29 pm

    Adil:
    Perhaps Dr. Ashraf had a reason to bring this issue up. I think his choice of a public venue to bring this up was wrong, especially without providing a context. However, it is quite possible that the religiuos fervor of some may be starting to infringe other players’ space. As long as those who want to be religious and/or pray in public are able to, and those who don’t are not peer-pressured into it, its all good.

  14. Fahad says:
    October 22nd, 2006 12:59 pm

    [quote comment="5009"][quote comment="5004"]When Sri Lankan and Indian cricketers visit temples, they aren’t termed as ‘religious’ or asked by respective boards to separate religion from cricket.[/quote]

    Perhaps because unlike Sri Lankans and Indians they don’t visit a mosque instead make a big show of it in the middle of the cricket ground. Appears as showing off and making a statement instead of praying.[/quote]

    I second that.

  15. Hassan says:
    October 22nd, 2006 7:08 pm

    Part of this discussion has (again) gone off the deep end and I do not wish to go there. But on the real topic, the point is that sports and religion are increasingly linked and it is not just Pakistan. In the US basketball season Houston’s Hakeem Olajuwon and Vancouver’s Shareef Abdur-Rahim both fast during Ramzan, in the middle of the season, NFL players kneel on the field after a game, holding hands in prayer, and in baseball Sandy Koufax refused to pitch the first game of the World Series for the Dodgers because it fell on Yom Kippur. This is not just about Islam and it is not new. There is a lot of debate in US sports radio about sports and religion and they are usually concerned about observant christians. The point is that if people wan to show their faith, even if it is ‘showing off’, then it is their right AS LONG AS they do not force others to change their behavior.

    Also, lets be clear. As yet, PCB has NOT asked players to stop praying and there is no confirmation that any players have been penalized by their seniors for not praying.

  16. Qudrat says:
    October 23rd, 2006 1:03 am

    I want to ask a question. Its really just a question and I do not know the answer, so please people don’t start shouting or getting angry. Just answer if you can and I will be thankful.

    WHY do the players want to pray ON the ground? I fully agree that if they want to they have a right to and should not be stopped. But I am not clear WHY they want to do it there. I also know the importance of ba-jamaat namaz, but I assume the dressing room etc. is a large enough space for that also given the size of this group in the picture?

    Is there a reason why saying jammat prayer in the open is considered more important. I am not clear why they prefer doing it in the middle of the ground with everyone watching. If there are people sitting talking in a room who are not saying their prayers, I usually go to a side to say mine or to a different room, but normally will not stand in the middle of the room to say my prayers. Again, please, I am not saying it is wrong or right. If they want to they have a right. Just asking why because I really do not know and cant understand.

  17. Kashif says:
    October 22nd, 2006 1:09 pm

    Sri Lankan cricket board should take disciplinary action against Mohamed Farveez Maharoof for a public demonstration of his religion, when he did a sajda after taking 5 wickets against the West Indies.

  18. October 22nd, 2006 1:10 pm

    [quote post="376"]Perhaps because unlike Sri Lankans and Indians they don’t visit a mosque instead make a big show of it in the middle of the cricket ground.[/quote]

    Perhaps you people are not aware of that Fard Namaz(Compulsory Unit of Salat) has specific time period unlike prayers of Hindus and BudhMats?

  19. October 22nd, 2006 1:20 pm

    @Kashif: Mahroof is a muslim? I was not aware of that. I agree with you.

    @Hasan: I think your reply deserves 100% marks. Well said!

  20. Zaka says:
    October 22nd, 2006 10:28 pm

    I see the point being made in the essay but context also matters. For many this is a reminder of the Zia days, when being seen to be a namaazi became a requirement for advancement. I remember at least a few people whose only known talent was that they went round the entire office collecting people before every prayer and spending the rest of the day telling everyone about how pious and great muslims they were, throwing in lots of Arabic words needlessly for effect. They made sure they were always SEEN saying their prayers and also made sure (mostly through gossip) that everyone knew who was not saying their prayers. Now that I look back I still don’t know what they actually did for WORK but everyone knew about their prayer habits. At least one rose very high in the Ministry very fast, no one still knows why!

  21. Yahya says:
    October 22nd, 2006 1:27 pm

    [quote comment="5023"]Perhaps you people are not aware of that Fard Namaz(Compulsory Unit of Salat) has specific time period unlike prayers of Hindus and BudhMats?[/quote]

    Perhaps you are not aware that there are rooms provided to teams in cricket stadiums and more space can be provided if requested. These rooms can be used as temporary mosque.

    Perhaps it is better to say prayer in secluded space to focus more on Allah than the media or public around you. But then perhaps that is the whole idea – to show off, which cannot be done in a secluded room.

    So woe to those who pray, but are unmindful of their Prayer. They like only to be seen of men. Al-Quran [107:5]-[107:7]

  22. Yahya says:
    October 22nd, 2006 1:32 pm

    [quote comment="5026"]Its just shows the enslaved mentality that praying in public hurts our babus and brown cocunuts.
    [/quote]

    No it doesn’t. It only hurts Islamic teching;

    So woe to those who pray, but are unmindful of their Prayer. They like only to be seen of men. Al-Quran [107:5]-[107:7]

    Showing off like this was never a good thing in Islam but perhaps we have become all too political that this is now a matter of pride.

  23. October 22nd, 2006 1:49 pm

    [quote post="376"]Perhaps you are not aware that there are rooms provided to teams in cricket stadiums and more space can be provided if requested. These rooms can be used as temporary mosque.[/quote]

    Perhaps you didn’t bother to read tha answer of Hasan that this practise is not absurd and unacceptable by people of other religion?

    [quote post="376"]but are unmindful of their Praye[/quote]

    Definately wrong Interpetition of yours or perhaps you are presenting yourself as an AMIL BABA who can read mind of others and can give fatwa tht who’s honest in praying and who’s not?

    The verse clearly condemns those who at one side wear topi on head and visits mosques all the time and on other hand don’t mind to perform evil things like drinking alcohol,taking Interest etc etc.

    According to your interpetition, all muslims SHOULD NOT offer namaz in Eidgah, right?

  24. Yahya says:
    October 22nd, 2006 1:56 pm

    [quote comment="5032"]According to your interpetition, all muslims SHOULD NOT offer namaz in Eidgah, right?[/quote]

    I have no idea where you have come with all the interpretations that you have come up with so I will ignore most of it. Briefly, the verse is talking of prayer and not anything else that you have conveniently brought in. As for secluded rooms it is common practice in western universities to provide students with a prayer room and as far as I am aware it works fine for everyone.

    Eid gah needs to be big to accommodate 100s or thousands of people and inzi and co does not need an eid gah size ground unless…

  25. October 22nd, 2006 2:19 pm

    leave it dude! you claimed that players who pray in public places don’t have concentration which is absolutely wrong but as you said yourself

    [quote post="376"]perhaps we have become all too political that this is now a matter of pride.[/quote]. OR as i said, you are using this website to advertising your spiritual skills of mind reading of others.

    [quote post="376"]Eid gah needs to be big to accommodate 100s or thousands of people and inzi and co does not need an eid gah size ground unless…[/quote]

    Perhaps you should take a look on your previous posts before you make new posts? According to you

    [quote post="376"]o focus more on Allah than the media or public around you. But then perhaps that is the whole idea – to show off, which cannot be done in a secluded room.[/quote]

    It means we muslims can’t concetrate on public places like Eidgah and we do show off to others people in surrrounding? Nobody was talking about quanitity neither Quran said anything like that X number of people should pray in room and Y numbers of people should pray in mosques, therefore your Interpretition violates your own statment. You are certainly calling those people Munafic-Hypocrites and you dont sound differen than those who call Shia as Kafir on public places.

  26. Hanif says:
    October 22nd, 2006 7:12 pm

    Lets be practical. If the senior players are so visibly advocating a behavior then there IS pressure on the juniors to follow. Its like when the boss plays golf, the juniors also do to be in the boss’s good books.

  27. Confused says:
    October 24th, 2006 12:26 am

    Why do we get so angry that we even lose sight of basic sense of decency? Is it something about us as a people, something about certain topics, or something about the Internet?

  28. October 22nd, 2006 2:29 pm

    Perhaps you are not aware that there are rooms provided to teams in cricket stadiums and more space can be provided if requested. These rooms can be used as temporary mosque.

    I just wonder where you were when one/some of our players visited night clubs!

    Why did you not suggest at that time to keep such gathering in their private rooms?

    You must ask yourself that why does it only hurt you when someone does something good you speak against him.

    Please save your energy for serving destitute people and the underpriviliged. Do someting for them getting jeleaus of other people.

    ========================

    [quote comment="5027"]
    But then perhaps that is the whole idea – to show off, which cannot be done in a secluded room.
    [/quote]

    Even if there is one other person, a person can show off.

    Now what do you say?

    ================================

    [quote comment="5027"][
    Perhaps it is better to say prayer in secluded space to focus more on Allah than the media or public around you. But then perhaps that is the whole idea - to show off, which cannot be done in a secluded room.
    [/quote]

    Your argument does not stand intellectual scrunity!

    You suggest the players should say the prayers in a secluded room.

    Now, just imagine the players are praying in a seculded room in congregation.

    Even show off can occur there. The players can show off to one another. This is a possibility.

    Do you not agree?

    ==================

    [quote comment="5033"]………… As for secluded rooms it is common practice in western universities to provide students with a prayer room and as far as I am aware it works fine for everyone.
    ……….[/quote]

    1)Why do you want to force each and every person to pray in rooms in seculsion?

    2)Why must we follow you?

    ==================

    Its just shows the enslaved mentality that praying in public hurts our babus and brown cocunuts.
    —————————————-
    No it doesn’t. It only hurts Islamic teching;

    You are correct in saying that, and the same is the ruling for all good actions. They should be done solely for Allah and not for show off.

    I hope you will agree with me when I say that
    Only Allah knows whats in the hearts.

    Now,
    1)
    Tell me shall we also stop dealing with good characters “”"in public”"” for it might hurt people like you?

    2)
    Shall we stop ”’speaking the truth”’ in public for it might hurt people like you?

    3)
    Shall we stop ”’dealing justly and fairly”’ in public for it might hurt people like you?

    And if you want to take the discussion forward then please answer the above questions in simple YES or NO. After which you can enlighten with any other comments you wish to make.

    ======================

    Its just shows the enslaved mentality of our brown coconuts, that praying in public hurts them.

    As good character is also a part of Islam, I wonder if it will hurt the coconuts if the cricket team displays good chracter in public?

    And the team selection has nothing to do with praying. The selection committe is involved in it, and that is a completely different matter.

    On a side note, I would also like to bring up the issue that why a doctor is heading the cricket board when an ex-cricketer could do the job wonderfully.

    The backward villages and city areas need the services of the DR, and that is the place he should be. Serving people who need medical help.

  29. Hassan says:
    October 23rd, 2006 8:18 am

    It seems to me that if this is really about Tableegh then it is a problem. The type of tableegh that comes from my being good and others being impressed by that goodness of my everyday actions is OK and even preferred. But using your professional/official space for formal tableegh or trying to convert people would be inappropriate. Someone using their and my personal time and space for religious conversations for teh purpose of converting me is fine, but using official time and space will be not. I will be VERY uncomfortable if my boss (captain) tried to ‘convert’ me during office time. That was the problem with the Zia time.

    I think they are not trying to do explicit tableegh. Just showing that they can fulfil what they consider to be their religious duties while also fulfilling their professional duties. That is fine and that is good.

  30. Asadullah says:
    October 24th, 2006 1:23 am

    We are a divided nation. And not just on this. We can’t even figure out when to have Eid. Three Eids just in Pakistan! And a thousands masjid’s, each of DAIRH EENTH

  31. Hanif says:
    October 24th, 2006 6:46 am

    MAJOR BREAKTHROUGH here guys… I hope people noticed this:

    BROWNIE: “Lets learn to respect the opinions of other people.”

    YAHYA: “We are stuck in our circles and can’t accept that there *may* be alternate explanations to what we have grown up with.”

    Both agree that there CAN be different views. Now THAT is enlightenment, moderate or not :-)

  32. Eidee Man says:
    October 22nd, 2006 7:24 pm

    This debate is getting a little rough. But I’d just like to add that while I dislike overt displays of religiosity, praying on the field is perfectly fine. Islam is quite different from other religions in that seclusion is not encouraged…to the contrary, people are encouraged to pray in mosques and in groups whenever possible.

  33. Hassan says:
    October 24th, 2006 11:42 pm

    The silliness of PCB chairman in giving this interview has now been exposed. Now Inzimam and Yousuf are giving counter-statements and we will get into another verbal match played out in the media.

  34. October 22nd, 2006 9:15 pm

    [quote post="376"]Its like when the boss plays golf, the juniors also do to be in the boss’s good books.[/quote]

    bhai Hanif my Boss is a good golf player but I never ever tried to play that game to seek Boss’ happiness and my Boss is very happy with me. What’s your point now?

    Liberal bhai as you said here that you never met any liberal which I often discuss. You would have seen another example of liberals in the form of Yahya who is very depressed and hurt due to public display of GOd’s worshipping. IMO, such elements are infinite times harmful more than official non-muslims because It’s not easy to single them out among masses.


    Has not the time come for those who believe for their hearts to fear Allah when they hear the Quran (dhikrullah here is in reference to the Quran) and what truth there is in it, so that they not be like those who received the Scripture before, but in the passage of time, their hearts became hard. And most of them are corrupt. (Quran 57:16)

  35. Hassan says:
    October 26th, 2006 12:25 am

    The defeat today was bad. I imagine that all these controversies themselves distract the players a lot.

  36. Kashif says:
    October 23rd, 2006 4:37 am

    Actually, every muslim is [should be] a mubaligh, preacher of islam. We have complete faith that Muhammad (saw) was the last prophet and there will be no prophet after him. So it is our responsibility, as the last ummah, to preach and spread the teachings of islam. We can do this by showing off (don’t take it in the wrong way) by example.

    One of the reasons Pakistani team prayed in open (and I maybe wrong in it) is to show the non-muslims around and maybe inspire a few to conversion.

  37. Yahya says:
    October 23rd, 2006 6:39 am

    I thin Dr Ashraf is right. He agrees that religion is important but that there should be a balance. Islam is all about balance.

  38. October 23rd, 2006 6:43 am

    [quote post="376"]Actually, every muslim is [should be] a mubaligh,[/quote]

    *nods*, as the Prophet(SAW) says that transfer message even it is a single verse. West has made us so frightened that if someone even opens lips to say something about Islam or preaching about namaz then others start saying that “Abay tu Molvi hogaya” *sigh*

    [quote post="376"]We can do this by showing off[/quote]

    Today Christianity, Judaism and Islam exist due to tht “ShowOff” which is called Preaching in true meaning. Abraham(AS) didn’t keep his faith to himself and he invited His infidel father to accept Islam which he refused. David,Jacob and Muhammad didn’t hide themselves when God ordered them to go out and spread word of God. Preaching is like Marketting. Ceo of a Company never goes out himself to advertise His product, he rather sends his sales agent to each and every door and they do come again and again and again on our doors. They don’t force us, they just don’t give up to spread the ‘message’. Same thing was done by all Prophets and same thing is being done by Tableeghi jamats which brought very fruitful results.

    [quote post="376"]few to conversion.[/quote]

    I was just listening Mohammad Yusuf’s story in an audiocassette and it was impressive[ I dont have mp3 version yet] and had brought tears in my eyes. A preaching which forced Newzealand captain to say with grief that “we are religion-less people” when he saw Pakistani team and Nasir Hussain of England performing prayers in England. If it’s destined then sooner or later we might hear converstion of Fleming. Indeed if Allah wants then he can convert a christian to a practised muslim and if He doesn’t then he make a born muslim more worst than an infidel.

    On a related note, PCB is also planning to ban the entrance of people like Saeed anwar, Mushtaq etc in premises. Beside that Govt of Pakistan is trying to stop the convertion of celebrities like Junaid Jamshed,Salim Malik ,Abrarul Haq etc who are already in path of Tableegh. The news came in Jang paper after 2 days of the news Adil has posted in this post. As it’s said in Quran k “Beshak batil mitnay k liye hee hey”.

  39. Yahya says:
    October 23rd, 2006 8:51 am

    [quote comment="5042"]I think they are not trying to do explicit tableegh. Just showing that they can fulfil what they consider to be their religious duties while also fulfilling their professional duties. That is fine and that is good.[/quote]

    Why do they need to show that they are fulfilling their religious duties? One should not try to do it to show off to people but only to make Allah happy…or may be I went to the wrong madrassa. ;)

    The second problem is I don’t know how they can focus on Namaz with all the public and media around? Isn’t it better they find a place where they can concentrate better? Its different in a mosque or eid gah where everyone is there to pray and no one is a distraction.

    And why are we comparing ourselves to other teams and people? To them their religion and to us ours. If something is not Islamic or desirable in Islam then that alone should be reason enough to avoid it regardless of how many other people do it.

  40. Yahya says:
    October 23rd, 2006 9:05 am

    Here is inzi’s response: here
    He says people who are complaining have never read namaz and have nothing to do with Islam(!). In other words he has declared them Kafir? Does he mean Dr Ashraf et al? :)

    Why such strong response? Does he have a guilty conscience? Dal maiN kuch kala kala hai?

    With such fatwas it seems only appropriate for PCB to try to put a leash to Maulana Inzimamul Haque and hamnawa. I suspect Dr Ashraf saw what was really going on in there.

  41. Ahsan says:
    October 23rd, 2006 10:00 am

    “Ahsan, I have no idea if you are or not blind. But on this you are certainly mistaken.”

    Dear Hassan, I thank you for pointing out my mistake by your remark:

    “People all over the world, including in sports, find motivation in their religion. Remember the movie ‘Chariots of Fire’? Many great athletes across the world find religion to be a motivating factor. American Football players routinely use religion as a motivating factor and also pray in public.”

    Yes I know all that and even some more. I have even observed that many Christans before entering the swiming pool, make a cross on their chests. It does not mean that this cross making is their motivation to swim. It is simply a religious gesture of a faithful.

    In your above statement, you are mixing up motivation and faith. By their religious actions they are simply seeking the Divine help. It is only personal or collective belief. They believe that with the help of Allaah or whatever the Divinity, they will win (or whatever their wish is?). It is the question of FAITH.

    The MOTIVATION is something different. It is the justicatifion of an act that you will be taking to reach the motif. During the period of Romans the gladiators (slaves) were forced to fight. The loser was killed and the winner was granted freedom. Usually, Both the slaves used to pray before the fight, before their Divinity. But it was not their motivation. It was simply their religious BElIEF. Their MOTIF was their Freedom and the MOTIVATION was survival. The correct motivation helps you to achieve the success.

    A Pakistani cricket player will be good or bad according to his personal achievements and appropriate motivations with the motif of winning, bringing Ashes to the country or simply beating the Indain Team.

    Trying to find “motivation” in Islam or any other religion is like looking for light on the doom’s day.

    Pakistani people are looking for motivation in Islam for every activity of life. If Islam could help, they would have been perfect human being by now. The real situation shows just the opposite.

    Ahsan

  42. Yahya says:
    October 23rd, 2006 10:56 am

    The only Hindu team member is not really a team member; here

  43. Kabir says:
    October 23rd, 2006 11:08 am

    I think we are over looking the bigger issue here. This is a yet another sign of Mullaisation that is happening is Pakistan. Islam (or any religion) is a personal thing. No one should feel any peer pressure to follow it. It is between you and Allah.

    This is a concern if it is done as a symbolic gesture in front of media and/or forces other team members to perform certain acts. If we are that eager to spread Islam it should be done in India and especially China (The fastest growing economies and most populace regions in the world)

    The Islamisation that is happening in PK can lead to a Talibanization or something similar. The bottom line is that a conscious state must keep religion separate from state affairs.

    Secondly dont forget that Pakistan cricket team has faced the greatest defamation and problems such as ball tamparing & then doping issues etc. Maybe they need to (really) pray (one on one ibadat)not just do an act. According to Islam we have to bring our nation to a global standard, Lead, fix our characters and stop measuring religion by the length of our beards.

    Also I ask you what have Muslims given to the world in our (this) century? Where r our scholoars & inventors. Junaid Jamshed and others should be in China/US/India, leave Pakistan alone we know our religon, we are already doing Jihad (the true Jihad) against poverty and for economic success let us do our job for Allah sake.

  44. Kashif says:
    October 23rd, 2006 12:50 pm

    To people who use the word Mullah as a swear word, could you please enlighten me with the exact definition of this word?

    According to Google, a Mullah is:

    Derived from the Arabic mawla, denoting a Muslim religious cleric. here

    Member of the ulama, an âlim (singular for ulama). A man recognized by Muslims as having a religious education and as an authority on the Koran and Islamic law (the Sharia). Has been described as similar in ways to a rabbi in Judaism. here

    India/Middle East/North Afica A Muslim teacher or reader of the Koran, and traditionally an expert on Islamic law. here
    A title of respect for one learned in the sacred law  here

    a Muslim trained in the doctrine and law of Islam; the head of a mosque here

    Mullahs are Islamic clergy who have studied the Qur’an and the Hadith and are considered experts on related religious matters in this religion. here

    seems Google is more enlightened than thou

    The wikipedia entry is here

  45. Mutazalzaluzzaman says:
    October 23rd, 2006 1:05 pm

    I’m not a religious person and overt displays of religious zeal are not my cup of tea. But the real question here is: why doesn’t Nasim Ashraf ever shut up?

    He could’ve easily discussed this with the team and made his point effectively in private. Why did he feel the need to go to the press? It seems to me that he doesn’t care about whether his actions get implemented as long as the tabloid newspapers of Pakistan print his “bayan”. He seems to be issuing “statements” before and after every meal.

    He doesn’t look like a young pup – I’m sure he has some life experience behind him which makes it all the more unfortunate that for a man of his education and experience, he seems to have no clue on how to handle the spotlight with any class or dignity. He is making a mockery of his position and post.

    All he needs to do now is bring his kid into the team and he will be on his way to surpassing the bipolar, hormonal mess that was Jarnail Tauqeer Zia as PCB’s most embarassing heads.

    People who are respected and remembered generally don’t talk much. They let their actions do the talking for them. So, when they do choose to talk, everyone realizes that they mean business.

    I must say that I miss the thorough gentleman and thoughtful man that Shehryar Khan was.

  46. Adnan Siddiqi says:
    October 23rd, 2006 1:23 pm

    Yahya chor yar kion itna halkaan huwa jaraha hay? jal jal kar kahin khatam he na hojaye. Come on yaar dimagh ko hawa laga bahar jakar aur kuch ghar walun ki khidmat kar.

    I think that was Kashif’s point of view that they were praying for sake of preaching. It doesnt mean kashif asked those guys and disclosed here. As others said that its common in several sports teams that they use religion as motivational factor. Even if they were really preaching then it’s not a bad sign. They didn’t have gun in hands to force thousands of people to accept Islam.

    [quote post="376"]ould you please enlighten me with the exact definition of this word?[/quote]

    You better ask them about Britney ;)

  47. Adnan Siddiqi says:
    October 23rd, 2006 1:29 pm

    [quote post="376"]If Islam could help, they would have been perfect human being by now. The real situation shows just the opposite.[/quote]

    if One group of MIT graduates doesn’t do well in career then it means MIT is bad?

  48. Adnan Siddiqi says:
    October 23rd, 2006 1:46 pm

    Kabir, Indian cricket board give alot of respect to players like Irfan, Zaheer and Kaif.

    Similarly Hashim Amla[ The 'mullah' player] of South Africa was never offended by NON-MUSLIMS.

  49. Yahya says:
    October 23rd, 2006 1:46 pm

    Pakistani cricket team members are heavy on drugs and sharab; here

    Sharab and namaz. Now that’s an interesting combination. Quoting Buhotto..”thoree see pee laitaN hooN”. This shows the duplicity of the whole affair.

    Now inzi bhai coming out with his takfeeri islam its clear where it is all heading if not stopped.

  50. Mast Qalandar says:
    October 23rd, 2006 2:43 pm

    [quote comment="5188"]“To people who use the word Mullah as a swear word, could you please enlighten me with the exact definition of this word?” [/quote]

    Kashif,

    All the meanings and definitions of “Mulla” that you have found are correct. I don’t think Mullah is used as a swear word, but sometime it is used in a pejorative sense depending upon the context.

    Here is how Iqbal, “the poet of the East” and the “poet of the ummah” describes a mulla:

    Awaaz hai daunoN ki usi ek fiza maiN
    Mullah ki azaaN aur, mujahid ki azaaN aur

    [They sound similar but the mulla's call for prayer is different than that of a true believer.]

    In another place he says:

    Deen-i-mulla fi sabeelillah fasad

    [Mulla's religion is nothing but commotion and disorder created in the name of God.]

    You may choose the definition you like.

  51. brownie says:
    October 23rd, 2006 4:04 pm

    [quote comment="5146"]I thin Dr Ashraf is right. He agrees that religion is important but that there should be a balance. Islam is all about balance.[/quote]

    Kindly define balance?

    If balance is half/middle then you should keep your hair till your lower back. (i.e. half way between the head and the feet)????

    Dont use weasel words, please?

  52. brownie says:
    October 23rd, 2006 4:12 pm

    [quote comment="5179"]The only Hindu team member is not really a team member; here[/quote]

    That is a blatant lie.

    I wonder why you choose things that are totally off topic to the discussion.

    Now,
    Pakistan cricket team is a team to preform on the cricket field.
    When they are in their private lives they are not a team. They only get paid for being a team on the cricket field.

    The pakistani people careless wheather they are a team off the field. Because that is not meant to be so.

    Tell me, do you invite all your work colleagues to all your private functions?

    Do you wish birtdhay to all your colleagues?

    Simple.

    Now please kindly retract your words that kaneria is not in the team?

    or else try and change the defination of the word team, as has been understood by all the people of the world?

  53. Hassan says:
    October 23rd, 2006 4:14 pm

    Ref. earlier discussion on ads about Nikah, just noticed that there ARE a lot of ads related to marraige, etc. on this site… wht are you up to ATP guyz ;-) I thought at least one of you got married recently, no? :-) Are you telling us something with selecting these ads ?

  54. brownie says:
    October 23rd, 2006 4:24 pm

    [quote comment="5037"]Lets be practical. If the senior players are so visibly advocating a behavior then there IS pressure on the juniors to follow. Its like when the boss plays golf, the juniors also do to be in the boss’s good books.[/quote]

    that statement is only true for syncopats who want to kiss up the boss.

    I see you are advocate that opinion, so it might suggest something.

  55. Owais Mughal says:
    October 23rd, 2006 5:07 pm

    While we should express and speak out our mind, I do not think we can change eachother’s minds or the way of thinking here. As almost all the particpants who have commented here have already expressed their views on the issue, it may be a good idea to refrain from replying to each other at personal level. It has now clearly become the last man standing issue where whoever replies last thinks they are winning the argument. One may want to take their one-on-one argument duels off line.

  56. Owais Mughal says:
    October 23rd, 2006 5:10 pm

    A ‘sher’ which I quoted in bazm-e-Eid may be relevant here too :)

    aaj ke din saaf ho jata hai dil aghyaar ka
    aao mil lo Eid ye moqa nahiN takraar ka

  57. October 23rd, 2006 5:12 pm

    Readers are requested to follow ATP Comment policy as well as general rules of netiquette.

    Off-topic discussions and personal attacks WILL be removed. Also, except in special circumstances, please consolidate your comments into single messages. This allows for more focussed conversation.

    Of course, reading what one has written before submitting it is always a good idea; just and thinking before one speaks is ;-)

  58. brownie says:
    October 24th, 2006 2:48 am

    [quote comment="5043"]We are a divided nation. ….[/quote]

    True but the differences should not lead us to loss of love for each other.

    I wonder somepeople always want the others to accept their views, and if any one has differences they blackmail them by saying that you are dividing the nation , etc, etc.

    Lets learn to respect the opinions of other people.

    So what if some one likes biryani, someone likes samosa, someone likes pakora………..lets love each other and not force anyone to love biryani or any one particular thing.

    Its high time that we learn that all people are not same. The leftist people stand for fredome but when someone else comes up with a view they do not like, they label them extremist, etc etc.

  59. brownie says:
    October 24th, 2006 2:50 am

    [quote comment="5216"]A ‘sher’ which I quoted in bazm-e-Eid may be relevant here too :)

    aaj ke din saaf ho jata hai dil aghyaar ka
    aao mil lo Eid ye moqa nahiN takraar ka[/quote]

    can you kindly explain how it is relevant?

    i’d say eid is a very good day to solve problems instead of wasting the oppoutinity and shoving the problems under the rugs.

  60. Adnan Siddiqi says:
    October 24th, 2006 3:03 am

    Mast Qalandar’s religion is based on Iqbal ;) *nuff said*.

    [quote post="376"]If balance is half/middle then you should keep your hair till your lower back. (i.e. half way between the head and the feet)????[/quote]

    hahaha. Oops don’t mind. EVen if he had said for me then I couldn’t stop laughing:d

    Yahya this new might become a reason of your heart attack.

    I must admire your consistency. If you had used your potential in something good then you could be a good asset for your family and surrounding. Bhai tuney ye news apni dil per aur pata nahi kaha kaha leyli hay hogi. Thora araam karlay bhai. Your rants are not reaching to Nasim anyway.

    As a believer I think whatever happens has reason and with agreement of Allah. All those who has so much pain due to Pakistan team behaviour or with Islam in Pakistan should read the following verse and quit extending this thread further:


    they plot, but Allah also plotteth; and Allah is the best of plottersâ€

  61. Yahya says:
    October 24th, 2006 6:07 am

    [quote comment="5039"]Why do we get so angry that we even lose sight of basic sense of decency? Is it something about us as a people, something about certain topics, or something about the Internet?[/quote]

    It’s just us. We are stuck in our circles and can’t accept that there *may* be alternate explanations to what we have grown up with. If we were correct in most things we believed/did we would have been among developed nations. Obviously there is need for (serious) review.

  62. brownie says:
    October 24th, 2006 11:43 am

    [quote comment="5045"]……. enlightenment, moderate…….[/quote]

    so far i have failed to understand what the word moderate means?

    can anyone enlighten me???

  63. Mast Qalandar says:
    October 24th, 2006 1:29 pm

    I was hoping that this will produce a good, animated and thought-provoking discussion but it’s a shame that it soon degenerated into a
    “tu tu, maiN maiN” match.

    There are four questions that immediately came to my mind when I read the post:

    1. Is cricket Islamic? It might sound a silly question but the reason I ask is that, not too long ago, no less a person than Maulana Dr. Israr Ahmad of Pakistan declared it to be an obscene sport. He said spitting on the ball and then rubbing it on one’s thighs, as the bowlers usually do, is totally obscene and, therefore, un-Islamic. Clearly, while watching a cricket match, it is not cricket that is on the good doctor’s mind. But it seems we have come a long way since then. Not only the sport has become Islamic, it has also become a vehicle for proselytizing and promoting Islam both within and outside.

    2. Should the PCB or any other state authority control the religious beliefs or practices of its sportsmen? My answer is No! I am for freedom of religious beliefs and practices and for non-interference of the state in religious matters. It’s one of the basic freedoms in any civilized society. But the irony is that many of those who are for the ‘namaz ba-jamaat’ in the cricket ground will not allow the same freedom to non-Muslim players, if there were any in the team and if they chose to do the same. In fact, some “non-Muslims” might even be arrested for doing just that under the state laws.

    3. Another question is, is it appropriate to pray surrounded by the noise and din of human and vehicular traffic on a sports field in use, on a sidewalk,or in an aisle at an air terminal, with curious onlookers watching and waiting for the ritual to finish. Personally, I believe prayer and worship is one of those activities that is best performed in the privacy of a room or a designated place of worship in a non-intrusive manner.

    4. And lastly, was PCB chairman right in making that comment to the press. No, it was a silly comment and a silly thing to do in public. He could have easily and more effectively handled it in the dressing room.

    MQ

  64. brownie says:
    October 24th, 2006 1:37 pm

    [quote comment="5172"]………
    “People all over the world, including in sports, find motivation in their religion. [/quote]

    So basically that mean that we as muslims should do what other people of other religions do and practice?

  65. Adnan Siddiqi says:
    October 25th, 2006 1:09 am

    I wonder people here are so naive that asking innocently why ashraf made a media statment? Offcourse he didn’t want to discuss this issue privately with concerned party rather wanted to send message to outer world that ‘we are controlling islamic extreemism everywhere in Pakistan’. If ashraf was so keen to discuss the issue then he would have never brought up into Public.

    Hasan, i dont think Inzy and yusuf doing right job by making counter-statments. By doing this they are repeating mistake made by Ashraf.

  66. Ahsan says:
    October 25th, 2006 2:04 am

    Dear All,

    The “mast” MQ is right to pose the above four questions.There are many more questions may be asked and from there an infinite number of responses may bloom.

    Let us not forgt that we are simply discussing on the subject of “Cricket and Islam”. Let us presume that all the participants know what is Cricket and what is Islam. Now we should see what is the relationship between the two.

    1. Did Islam created this game?
    2. Is there any mention of this game in the Holy Scripture?
    3. Did Islam make the rules of the game?
    4. Is any religious obligation of Islam towards Cricket?
    5. Do we need any Holy place to play this game?

    As far as I know that none of the above relations exists between Cricket and Islam.

    The only man made (certainly not Divine) relation between Islam and Cricket is that “Pakistani Cricket players find their MOTIVATION for the game in Islam”. For this I reproduce my earlier answer in response to Mr. Hassan.

    Mr. Hassa wrote:
    “People all over the world, including in sports, find motivation in their religion. Remember the movie ‘Chariots of Fire’? Many great athletes across the world find religion to be a motivating factor. American Football players routinely use religion as a motivating factor and also pray in public.â€

  67. Yahya says:
    October 25th, 2006 3:53 am

    Players are now praying in their dressing rooms. Seems like sensibility prevailed. Now if we can do the same for other areas of our society…and not keep trying to conquer everything all the time in the name religion be it cricket ground or women.

  68. MQ says:
    October 25th, 2006 10:47 am

    Someone on this thread mentioned that the NFL players kneel in prayer before, during, and after the match. If the reference is to the US National Football league this is not true. There are never any collective prayers of any kind in US sports — not to my knowledge, at least. When the players crouch together on the field during a football game they are not praying. They are in what is known as a ‘huddle’, which they do to discuss the strategy and the tactics they should follow in the game.

  69. Adnan Siddiqi says:
    October 25th, 2006 2:01 pm

    yahya, my man
    you are still up? Amazing simply amazing! did you check your BP this morning?

    [quote post="376"]f Islam could help, they would have been perfect human being by now. The real situation shows just the opposit[/quote]

    tsk tsk, Ahsan when educated people like you bring such questions then one surely prefer to lead life as illetrate. BTW, you were answered earlier. Read above.

  70. BhindiGosht says:
    October 25th, 2006 9:02 pm

    Adil, there is an ad on your blog for Nikah search.com with the tagline ” your search for Muslim life partner ends here”. The image is of a woman in a hijab. Does this not stereotype muslim women? Does this imply that those of us who do not observe the hijab are not Muslim enough to qualify as a candidate for a ” Muslim Life Partner” :)

  71. Yahya says:
    October 25th, 2006 10:38 pm

    [quote comment="5482"]Adil, there is an ad on your blog for Nikah search.com with the tagline ” your search for Muslim life partner ends here”. The image is of a woman in a hijab. Does this not stereotype muslim women? Does this imply that those of us who do not observe the hijab are not Muslim enough to qualify as a candidate for a ” Muslim Life Partner” :)[/quote]

    Hey, you are getting a wife in hijab who “will not go anywhere” what else do you want? :)

  72. MQ says:
    October 25th, 2006 10:53 pm

    [quote comment="5491"]

    “Hey, you are getting a wife in hijab ‘who will not go anywhere’” [/quote]

    Yahya,
    You are making two assumptions. One, that a woman with hijab “will not go anywhere” and two, that woman without hijab “will go anywhere”. The empirical data shows that you are wrong on both counts.

  73. darvaish says:
    October 25th, 2006 11:09 pm

    Yahya, the third assumption is that Bhindigosht is a man.

  74. Adnan Siddiqi says:
    October 26th, 2006 1:25 am

    bhindi and man, sounds weird, specially when in english it’s said ladyfinger ;d

  75. Long time reader says:
    October 27th, 2006 2:18 pm

    Dear ATP. I have been a reader of this site from the very beginning and have seen it grow and blossom. I enjoy reading the posts and until recently the comments too. I am sorry to say that recently the comments have gotten out of control. The bullies of both extremes have taken over and note how so many people who used to comment regularly have disappeared because the shouters are now in control. They are bullying everyone and highjacking the site. Maybe some people enjoy this but I do not and will soon stop coming here. I know I will now be attacked but here is my parting thought and I really say this as a friend and maybe as someone who is much older than most people here (in my 70s). Those of you who think you are liberals are really not doing yourself any favor by bullying your view into everything and making fun of people. Those of you who think you are presenting the religious pointof view, you are not winning any converts by using the type of abusive language you are using here. Good bye.

  76. MQ says:
    October 26th, 2006 8:29 am

    [quote comment="5096"]“The defeat today was bad. I imagine that all these controversies themselves distract the players a lot.” [/quote]

    Hassan,

    MainN janta huN anjaam us ka
    Jis ma’arkay maiN mulla hoN ghazi

    [I already know the result of a battle when the mullas are doing the fighting instead of soldiers]

    Iqbal

  77. Yahya says:
    October 26th, 2006 8:34 am

    [quote comment="5521"][quote comment="5096"]“The defeat today was bad. I imagine that all these controversies themselves distract the players a lot.” [/quote]

    Hassan,

    MainN janta huN anjaam us ka
    Jis ma’arkay maiN mulla hoN ghazi

    [I already know the result of a battle when the mullas are doing the fighting instead of soldiers]

    Iqbal[/quote]

    :) :)

  78. Adnan Siddiqi says:
    October 26th, 2006 9:55 am

    [quote post="376"]I already know the result of a battle when the mullas are doing the fighting instead of soldiers][/quote]

    Brilliant! Are you claiming that this is the first time Pakistan lost any cricket match in the history of Pakistani cricket? Who can forget the offensive defeat against bangladesh,was the Paksitani team lead by some islamic captain/players? what about defeat in WC2003 final? which muftish player was leading the team. what about defeat in reliance cup 1987, was team led by mullah or a playboy?

    Ignorance prevails Ignorance prevails

    [quote post="376"]Iqbal[/quote]

    I found Iqbal a splitted or confused personality. At one side he wrote a classic like Tariq Ki dua “Ye Ghazi ye teray Purasrar Banday” and on other hand he also said such shairs. I don’t what what ws the issue with him. Smae germs were transmitted into his son as well, anyway he’s lovely to read.

  79. Ahsan says:
    October 26th, 2006 10:09 am

    Dear Adnan Siddiqi,

    It appears that you have some problem with my following statement:

    [quote post="376"]If Islam could help, they would have been perfect human being by now. The real situation shows just the opposit[/quote]

    Here I am blaming neither Islam nor Pakistani Muslims. I am giving only my personal observation, but your following question:

    “If One group of MIT graduates doesn’t do well in career then it means MIT is bad?”

    coneys the message that if a group of MIT graduates does not do well then it is not the fault of MIT but the Group of students. It is only possible if the whole group is composed of stupid students.

    With this argument you should agree that the Pakistan Muslim Population is composed of “stupids” and Islam is not to be blamed.

    If you wish you can take the argument in the opposite direction. I will leave it to you and to your friends to make their own conclusions. My statement will stay as it is.

    By rhe way, to be a good Human Being, you do not hav to have a University degree. If you look, you will find better Human Beings, around you, among the illiterates than among the so called educated people.

    Ahsan

  80. Adnan Siddiqi says:
    October 26th, 2006 10:13 am

    [quote post="376"]To people who use the word Mullah as a swear word[/quote]

    The problem is that we always forget that there are several sects with in Islam and Pakistan some who are infinite times away from orignal teachings try to appear as “Islamic”[like claiming a false prophets or rejecting hadiths etc], hence crate confusion among majority or newcomers about the religion itself. Such cults disguse as orignal followers and comment on public forums. They have to do it for the existance and we have to deal with it.

    On a related note, you might like to visit this wiki article, an intresting read.

  81. Adnan Siddiqi says:
    October 26th, 2006 10:15 am

    [quote post="376"]It is only possible if the whole group is composed of stupid students.[/quote]

    Dear Ahsan!

    You answered yourself and before replying me back, do give a second thought why i made BOLD the particular words.

  82. Ahsan says:
    October 26th, 2006 11:28 am

    [quote comment="5531"][quote post="376"]It is only possible if the whole group is composed of stupid students.[/quote]

    Dear Ahsan!

    You answered yourself and before replying me back, do give a second thought why i made BOLD the particular words.[/quote]

    Dear Adnan Siddiqi,

    If you write “i” in place of “I” with an especial meaning for yourself, this meaning is not conveyed to me. If by MIT you mean something other than Massachussettes Insitute of Technology, it is upto you to make it clear what do you mean. This use of small and capitol letters as your Personal Code may help your private agents but fail to convey your real message to me.

    I am always willing to discuss with you if you give yourself the trouble to write without your personal code or abbreviation. If you do, please give the full expression of the abbreviation (or code) at least once in the text. Thanks.

    Ahsan

  83. brownie says:
    October 26th, 2006 1:16 pm

    [quote comment="5317"]I was hoping that this will produce a good, animated and thought-provoking discussion but it’s a shame that it soon degenerated into a
    “tu tu, maiN maiN” match.
    [quote]
    Before blaming others first look at your own self.
    Dont think you are someone special and above faults.
    And please refrain from having a holier than thou attitude.

    [quote]
    There are four questions that immediately came to my mind when I read the post:

    1. Is cricket Islamic? It might sound a silly question but the reason I ask is that,…
    [/quote]

    The only reason that your have further spoilt this discussion is because you want to disintergate the discussion about non issues.

    We were never ever discussing this point in this discussion.

    What were your motives exactly about bringing this point here?

    What a hypocritical attitute you have, first blaming others for spoiling the discussion……while you yourself are to blame.

    [quote]…But the irony is that many of those who are for the ‘namaz ba-jamaat’ in the cricket ground will not allow the same freedom to non-Muslim players,
    [/quote]

    Kindly substantiate with proof, if you want an intellectual discussion. Otherwise eat your words. And again dont put things in others mouth just to self-project yourself.

    [quote]
    In fact, some “non-Muslims” might even be arrested for doing just that under the state laws.
    [/quote]
    What a load of junk are you talking about?

    When Muhammad Yousuf was a cristian he used to do the cross?

    I ask you:

    Was Muhammad Yousuf put into Jail?

    Was he ever ever arrested?

    For how many days was he arrested for?

    Which jail was he put into?

    Again, when you cannot substantiate your points with proof, it means that you are not for intellecual discussion. And it implies you want jahil discussion.

    [quote]
    3. Another question is, is it appropriate to pray surrounded by the noise and din of human and vehicular traffic on a sports field in use, on a sidewalk,or in an aisle at an air terminal, with curious onlookers watching and waiting for the ritual to finish.
    [/quote]

    It is prefectly appropriate for those that who do it.

    At one point you are for freedom of religoin, expression, and at the other you mischeviously put some questions that aim to do the exact opposite.

    [quote]
    Personally, I believe prayer and worship is one of those activities that is best performed in the privacy of a room or a designated place of worship in a non-intrusive manner.
    [/quote]
    You are welcome to do the same for yourself, but kindly dont impose on others.

  84. October 26th, 2006 8:53 pm

    Since some of you asked about the ads. I am also quite intrigued by the ads that appear here. We do NOT get to chooss the particular ads (although we can choose to exclude particular ones). The dynamic ads are generated automatically by Google, based on the content on the site (the static ones are placed by us); and of course the ads available to Google that relate to the keywords that their search engine picks up from the content on the site.

    If you want to change the ads, then change the conversation ;-) [Now, now, please don't try anything nasty here.]

  85. Mast Qalandar says:
    October 26th, 2006 10:55 pm

    Mr. brownie (or is it Ms. Brownie?):

    First, let me reproduce the litany of your accusations:

    [quote]
    “Before blaming others first look at your own self.” [/quote]

    [quote]
    “Don’t think you are someone special and above faults.” [/quote]

    [quote]
    “And please refrain from having a holier than thou attitude.”[/quote]

    [quote] “What a hypocritical attitude you have?â€

  86. Adnan Siddiqi says:
    October 27th, 2006 1:26 am

    @Adil Najam: Why my post is being censored? or do you allow posts only which permit offending of mullahs?

  87. Adnan Siddiqi says:
    October 27th, 2006 1:46 am

    Dear Ahsan
    [quote post="376"]If by MIT you mean something other than Massachussettes Insitute of Technolog[/quote]

    MIT or XYZ instituite, it doesn’t matter here. I already highlited the words which was answer of your own statment. There was no rocket science theory in my last statment. you made a statment.

    [quote post="376"]It is only possible if the whole group is composed of stupid students[/quote]

    and i FULLY agree with you. Its not a hypothetical that a group of a certain school doesn’t do good in school life and then in career and if some outsider observe those group then if 1)he’s an ignorant, he would blame to MIT 2)have brain then he would just blame that group that they didn;t do well.

    Muslims are backward due to their own mistakes it’s not Islam’s fault. Try to make a study of Islamic history then you would learn how was Islam and muslims in past and now.

  88. Adnan Siddiqi says:
    October 27th, 2006 1:59 am

    @Brownie: The problem with lefts is that they are no different than extreeme relgiious freaks like MMA etc who don’t miss any chance to offend opponent parties and if you say a word against them, they start calling you extreemist[in case of lefts] and ‘America ka Dost’[incase MMA people]. The good thing is that majority don’t give a damn to both cabals and sadist part is that same majority don’t raise a voice against them. Don’t you remember elementary math we used to study in schools?


    Hence proved
    L(eft).H.S=R(ight).H.S ;)

    [quote post="376"]I take out my volume of Iqbal and open it at random (like a ‘faal’.[/quote]


    is sadgi pey kon na mar jaye aay Khuda
    kertey hein qatl, hath mein talwar bhi nahin

    Brownie its not Mast’s fault that every random shair contains a keyword ‘MUllah’, don’t blame him ;)

    As i said earlier tht many sects do appear Islamic for outisders while in reality they have nothing to do with religion. Their survival is based on getting ahserward of west and polluting the orignal teachings of a religion and this isssue is with big religion on face of earth.

  89. Adnan Siddiqi says:
    October 27th, 2006 2:03 am

    [quote post="376"]Pakistani people are looking for motivation in Islam for every activity of life. If Islam could help, they would have been perfect human being by now[/quote]

    Ahsan maybe I was unable to comprehend then could you enlighten me that who’s being blamed here?

  90. brownie says:
    October 27th, 2006 4:00 am

    In reply to mast qalander:

    [quote comment="5616"]
    Whenever I find myself speechless…
    [/quote]

    Read as: whenever I get myself in hot water for typing nonsense and false accusations…

    [quote]
    … I take out my volume of Iqbal and open it at random
    [/quote]
    Firing the gun from the others shoulders. An act of cowardice, i must say.

    You must have the intellectal integrity to give coherent replies to valid objections to YOUR OWN statements.

    I objected to your statments…..if you wrote them in the first place they why have you left them now.

    Seems you have orphaned your own writing.

    —>Message to all: Such is what happens to falsehood/heresay/lies/accusations. I.e. it is orphaned by its own writers.

    [quote]
    (like a ‘faal’. I am sure you know what that is)
    [/quote]
    i dont

    [quote]and try to find an answer.
    [/quote]
    where is your answer? I have not found it. I guess there was none to begin with!!

    [quote]
    How dare I argue with and insult a mulla?
    [/quote]
    Excuse me!!!! What are you trying to imply??

    [quote]
    I only look for an open mind
    [quote]
    Of course, i suppose you are having inferiority complex, as you dont seem to have one yourself.

    [quote]
    Only to free the mind enslaved by the mullas and madrassas
    [/quote]

    Excuse me!!!! Again what are you trying to imply?

    Allama Iqbal said at the death of Shaykh Allama Anwar Shah Kashmiri that the Ummat has not seen the like of such a person for over 500 years.

    It is high time that you stop your rant about Ulema and Madaris.

    Substantiate with intellecutal proof

    You cross all limits for decent discussions and its time that you should realise.

    No one is forcing you to go to a madarasa……they why trying to do by spreading lies against them?

    What is your motive?

    [quote]
    Enjoy!
    [/quote]

    Again you have not answered my questions in the previous post.

    I post them here for your ease, so that you can answer them:

    I asked you:
    [quote]
    When Muhammad Yousuf was a cristian he used to do the cross?

    I ask you:

    Was Muhammad Yousuf put into Jail?

    Was he ever ever arrested?

    For how many days was he arrested for?

    Which jail was he put into?

    Again, when you cannot substantiate your points with proof, it means that you are not for intellecual discussion. And it implies you want jahil discussion.
    [/quote]

    Now the onus is on you to prove that if you have a mind then answer the each above question!

    Otherwise it will be clear to all the readers of this forum that what you are not what you speak for.

    And it is your mind which is narrow, full of negative stereotype and only capable of vomiting out poetry which you have learnt by rote.

  91. brownie says:
    October 27th, 2006 4:04 am

    [quote comment="5634"]…… Their survival is based on getting ahserward of west and polluting the orignal teachings of a religion and this isssue is with big religion on face of earth.[/quote]

    said.

  92. Mast Qalandar says:
    October 27th, 2006 8:37 am

    brownie,

    I quote from your message:

    [quote]“… It is your mind which is narrow, full of negative stereotypes and only capable of vomiting out poetry which you have learnt by rote.” [/quote]

    brownie sahib (it has to be a sahib and not a sahiba because women rarely demonstrate that much anger):

    Using poetry in a discussion is very much a Pakistani tradition, and in my view a delightful and a useful one. And I know it does not violate the ATP policy. I am glad ATP didn’t blocked or censored you because the language used in a comment is also an indicator of where the argument is coming from.

    I only quoted Iqbal, a favorite of religious scholars, since our discussion touched the fringes of religion. I thought he would be more acceptable to you than any leftist, communist or a sharaabi shair.

    We can have a meaningful discussion only if you go back and read my original comment and then also read some of the Pakistani laws restricting religious practices of certain non-Muslim groups in public. otherwise, I am afraid we will only be making brownie points. But before I quit this discussion please allow me to quote one more she’r by Iqbal. Who else?

    Uttha maiN madrassa-o-khanqah say ghamnaak
    Na zindagi, na mohabbat, na ma’rifat na nigah

    A rough translation would be:

    [I came away from the mulla and madrassa with a heavy heart - For there was neither life nor love; nor understanding nor vision ]

    Have fun!
    MQ

  93. Faraabi says:
    October 27th, 2006 9:39 am

    MQ, Waah!

  94. Bhindigosht says:
    October 27th, 2006 10:11 am

    Wah wah MQ.

  95. Adnan Siddiqi says:
    October 27th, 2006 10:17 am

    Brownie, wouldn’t you like to enlighten him about “Shaykh Allama Anwar Shah” ? *grin*

    [quote post="376"]I am glad ATP didn’t blocked or censored you because the language used in a comment is[/quote]

    You should also be glad as well as thankful that same ATP have been tolerating your rants for many days.

    brownie,i once read tht there were few fake qalanders/sufis reside in different shrines of interior sind and most of them were found addicted to marijuana. You know what I mean. It’s Internet era and they are free to use Internet too *grin*

    [quote post="376"]How dare I argue with and insult a mulla?[/quote]

    Again, LHS=RHS, such cabals remind me a shair, i dont know who was the poet,neither I am sure i write it correctly, anyways.

    Huway tum[lefts/rights] dost jiskay
    dushman uska asmaan kion ho

  96. Khalid-s says:
    October 29th, 2006 4:35 pm

    people on all sides of this shouting match, how many times do you have to repeat yourself before you realize that either no one listening or they just aren’tt and wont buy your point.

  97. Adnan Siddiqi says:
    October 28th, 2006 2:44 am

    @Longtimereader: Respected Uncle I wouldn’t deny you and infact I do realize that I did mistake to answer these offensive comments about a certain community. Like you, I have also been with this site since beginning and when Adil bhai discussed the diea of the site in one of the email then it made me cheerish as I was well aware of AN bhai;s skills through his PTV shows and his Nara of “Pakistaniat” Attracted me like Altaf Hussain’s nara of “Mazloomou ka saathi” attracted both jahil and so called educated urdu speaking class.

    I emailed Adil yesterday and expressed my views that his website is also being used to offend a certain community again and again and for me this is not new as I visit and participate in others forums as well and I have lost 80% interest from adil’s website which attracted me due to its uniqness.

    I agre with you that nobody could convert others and I think noone was actually trying to convert each other[atleast I wasn't]. the thing which pisses me[or anyone] off that blaming entire community due to act of individuals, specially when they believe in theories borrowed by outsiders.

    Anyway, If my existance made you enough irritated then I’m sorry. I also realize that somethings re destined and we can’t change anyway. I hope Adil either will reconsider to shut this site or will rectify it by adding a criteria for some posts and make it different than already existing websits of lefts and rights and will clean the dirth and filth from the site. Till then I would certainly prefer to stay away from adil’s site or just visit silently and experience how a community keep bashing other community without having any idea about the filth they themselves spread in surroundings.

    @Adilbhai: Hope you would promote your definitin of “PAKISTANIAT” sooner or later to peple like my respected elder “longtime reader”.

  98. Ahsan says:
    October 28th, 2006 2:47 am

    [quote comment="5635"][quote post="376"]Pakistani people are looking for motivation in Islam for every activity of life. If Islam could help, they would have been perfect human being by now[/quote]

    Ahsan maybe I was unable to comprehend then could you enlighten me that who’s being blamed here?[/quote]

    Dear Adnan,

    You did comrehend fully the above statement as you fully agreed to my earlier response to your question concerning MIT.

    If A is seeking help in B. It is entirely the responsibility of A to succeed or fail in his research. B is a source (book, university, religion, …) and is not taking any action in the failure or success of A. Thus when A fails, it is A to be blamed and in case of success it is again A to be congratulted.

    I guess you are more interested in Islam (B) and Muslim (A). If Muslims fail, all blame goes to them and not to Islam. On the opposite, if they succeed all merit goes to them and not to Islam.
    It will be illogic to blame the Muslims for their failure and applaud Islam for their success.

    Wish you the best.

    Ahsan

  99. Adnan Siddiqi says:
    October 28th, 2006 5:28 am

    you came up with good examples but no this is not I’m getting agreed with you. I never said that success or failure is 100% dependant on “A”. I would certainly blame “B” if all all entitites from A1-Z1 associated with B fail to produce something good then definately “B” should be blamed. If even single or few groups doing best then credit does go to “B” institute and the teachers associated with the institute.

    [quote post="376"]t will be illogic to blame the Muslims for their failure and applaud Islam for their success.[/quote]

    Problem with you is that you are assuming that Islam came in this just in 20th or 21st century and our ancestors had been following some other religion for last 1500 years. You would like to make a study of history first. If history proves that every single person associated with Islam is failed then your statment does hold wather otherwise it is just another assumption.

    -adnan

  100. Mast Qalandar says:
    October 28th, 2006 8:59 am

    Ahsan,

    [quote comment]
    “It will be illogical to blame the Muslims for their failure and applaud Islam for their success.”
    [/quote]

    It is a very interesting and thought provoking statement that you have made. But, you see, logic is not a popular subject.

  101. October 28th, 2006 12:17 pm

    Dear Long time reader:
    I, for one, hope that you will not stop visiting ATP. In many ways I share some of the frustrations that you have recently experienced, but there is so much to cherish in the posts that come up on ATP that I wouldn’t want to give up on them.
    ATP feels a bit like home, except that like all homes and mohallas, there are a few crazy neighbors who cannot stop shouting. My way of dealing with those shouters has been to simply not engage with them, and to continue to enjoy the more thought out, diverse, and enlightening comments made by others. I request other readers and commentators to also not provoke the flamers or those who get enflamed quickly. Nothing good has come from engaging them, except that on some posts, it has become a matter of their ana’a to be the last man standing.

  102. Ahsan says:
    October 29th, 2006 2:18 am

    In the statement: “A is looking for help in B”, A is totally responsible for his/her act. So, all the credit or discredit for the act goes to A. In case the burden of a particular action is shared by A and B, then the cridit of success and discredit of failure will be shared by A and B according to the percentage of their responsibilities. This will apply even when A is a Believer and B is the Belief.

    This is only simple logic. It has nothing to do with Islam or any other religion. To understand this, there is no need to read the whole history of 1500 years of Islam.

    Islam did not invent the method of reasoning and logic. It already existed (according to history) at least a thousand years before Islam.

    Dear Adnan, personally, I have no objection if you keep on reading the history of your ancestors during the Islamic Period. I will be only happy if you become more logic and wish you all the success.

    Ahsan

  103. Adnan Siddiqi says:
    October 29th, 2006 2:54 am

    Ahsan !

    you are asserting that Islam failed and you keep history of a century or two or maybe less. This is not fair. That’s all I am talking about.

    [quote post="376"]there is no need to read the whole history of 1500 years of Islam.[/quote]

    Then certainly such statments doesnt hold water that Islam failed. Yes i wouldnt disagree with you if you say Muslims failed to implement Islam properly. If me and my fellows fail to understand C properly thisyear in 2006 and gave bad Impression then it doesnt mean tht people in last 20 decads couldn’t understand it or father of c Bjarne Stroustrup was a failure.

    [quote post="376"]this is only simple logic.[/quote]

    And you are not being able to explain your own logic and it doesnt hold water :)

    [quote post="376"]I will be only happy if you become more logic and wish you all the success.[/quote]

    I know you have no objection neither I have objection if you think Islam failed while I am able to analyze myself and have evidence of several others about success of Islam. You are keep talking about logics but you are not being able to comprehend that you re being too much hypothetical. You can show all of your statments to someone else[as I am not credible] then he would make you understand where are you going wrong. I dont think I have to say further:), have a nice sunday- tata.

  104. Adnan Siddiqi says:
    October 29th, 2006 3:36 am

    @bilal: and for you those crazy mohalla poeple would be none other than we poor moderate souls who prefers to practise religion in its orignal shape rather than imposed by left liberals like Musharraf, Ahmad GHamdi,Dr.Mehdi Hasan etc or by right extreemists like all secterian political religious groups+MMA, right? *grin*

  105. Humaira says:
    October 30th, 2006 9:59 am

    Khalid, When kids fight they have this way of going ‘he did it’, ‘no I did not’… ‘he did it’, ‘no I did not… ‘he did it’, ‘no I did not… ‘he did it’, ‘no I did not… ‘he did it’, ‘no I did not…

    It does not help anyone, not even them. But if you dont stop them, they just keep going on and on and on.

  106. Mast Qalandar says:
    October 29th, 2006 6:16 pm

    [quote ]“… we poor moderate souls who prefer to practise religion in its orignal shape rather than imposed by left liberals like Musharraf, Ahmad Ghamdi,Dr.Mehdi Hasan etc. or by right extremists like all secterian political religious groups MMA”[/quote]

    Adnan Siddiqi Sahib,

    Agar jaan ki amaan paayooN tau ek swaal poochooN. Yeh asli aur wadhiya Islam jis ka aap zikar kartay hain, kon si dukaan peh milta hai. Please zara hamain bhi bata daiN. Nawazish ho gi.

    Duago
    MQ

  107. YLH says:
    October 30th, 2006 5:45 am

    Dear Adnan Siddiqui,

    Let us go over this again.

    Pakistani cricket team – which was once a bastion of inclusive Pakistani nationalism- has undergone a rather unfortunate change in the past few years.

    It is said that Inzi and his Mullah thugs force their own interpretation of Islam on other cricketers, Muslims and Non-Muslims … as a precondition for selection to the team. Infact recently I heard someone say … the team that prays together stays together…

    No one is against Islam or praying. But these actions of the Tablighis in the team are against Islam itself. Islam says “La-ikrah-fiddeenâ€

  108. Yahya says:
    October 30th, 2006 1:54 pm

    [quote comment="5877"]
    It does not help anyone, not even them. But if you dont stop them, they just keep going on and on and on.[/quote]

    Humaira, you can’t stop them if they are not your kids, unfortunately. Ignore them like we do in real life.

  109. October 31st, 2006 12:44 am

    Yasser as I once said, the day you quit your hypocritic and ignorant behaviour, you would be started taken seriously. Your latest rant again shows your ignorance manyways. Forget about me, when one of our neighbor visitor already declared you a “strawman” then it would be very stupid for me that I keep myselg engaged with you. Bring some maturity in your arguments so that your oponents do like to reply you. I would just give 2 examples if your ignorant/arrogant attitude.

    1)Force converstion of Yousuf:
    ==================================
    may I dare to say that I have listened him[ yes in his voice about his converstion].

    2)Pakistani team didn’t bring a good change
    =============================================

    Some idiot only would take your charge seriously while records of past 2 years clearly says how pakistan is performing and how united they are. Even your guy Nasim Ashraf is forced to say it

    A friendly advise, next time whenever you wish to discuss things with me, do comeup with references, you are not some Makhdoom neither yo are my “Sain” that I blindly believe whatever stuff you say on basis of your limited knowledge.

    Otherwise, I am really not willing to take part in your trolling contest. Keep burning yourself, its not harming anyone anyway. Things are not neither in my hand nor yours. I already once quoted a verses that people keep making plans but the end result is based on What God thinks so do act upon it and accept whatever is coming to you with open heart. Bye

  110. YLH says:
    October 31st, 2006 5:43 am

    Adnan,

    I can’t do anything if you persist with personal attacks. It is clear that you don’t have any real answers – which is why you are the laughing stock of this website.

  111. October 31st, 2006 5:56 am

    According to Merriam-Webster “Hypocrite” is:


    a person who acts in contradiction to his or her stated beliefs or feelings

    If i used a single word for you and you take it as “Personal attack” then you shouldn’t argue on a public forum.

    [quote post="376"]don’t have any real
    answers[/quote]

    Again hypocrisy. Give me the referrence which you used to back your statments. Childish statments like “Yousuf was forced” or “Mullah thugs and rest are best” clearly tell your background of education. I assume you re 20 and can provide “Refernece” to back your statments. So far you or any other liberal failed to provide any such reference. I say again that provide reference that yousuf was forced and Paksitan team failed to perform in last 2/3 years. If you provide source, fine, you would be credible, if not then better save yourself to make baseless commments on a public forum.

    [quote post="376"]you are the laughing stock of this website.[/quote]


    They laugh at me because I am different; I laugh at them because they are all the same

    So doesn’t matter me. As i said here do ponder about it and comeup with something which can produce something good from you. Till then tata.

  112. October 31st, 2006 6:07 am

    and pls hamdani, do read again, do provide references to put some weight on your statments. When i said i ignore your statment about statment then it means I have some proof to refute your claim. If you re in karachi, you may go to “Ilmi Cassette ghar” near Madni Masjid F.B.AREA karachi and could grab the audio cassette “Mey Musalman Kaise Bana by Muhammad Yousuf” and listen in his own voice. I know it would pisses you off that cassette is available near Tableeghi markaz in Ayesha Manzil F.B.ARea but deal with it. Yousuf is a muslim now. If you can grab cassette from somewhere else then good for you. I could give you a website link but i know u would reject it as “fake” material. Oh by the way video is available too incase if you troll that it’s not his voice. Geo Super also did a program with Yousuf in which wasim was host. you may also watch it to enlighten yourself. Now bring such evidence so that I[we] take your seriously.

  113. YLH says:
    November 6th, 2006 2:42 am

    What I am saying is clearly beyond you.

    Youhanna’s conversion… when seen from an unbiased angle… seems quite forced. Do you really think that Youhanna would be allowed to say otherwise by Inzimam and his mullahs?

  114. November 6th, 2006 4:23 am

    [quote post="376"]What I am saying is clearly beyond you[/quote]

    T.R.O.L.L

    Keep seeing things from your *unbaised angles* it doesn’t hurt anyone at all.

  115. November 6th, 2006 4:29 am

    yasir deal with it. Youhana is Muhamamd yusuf now. Deal with that that Saqlain, Mushtaq ,saeed anwar are practised muslims now. deal with it that JUnaid jamshed is busy in reading naats and tableegh. Deal with it that more celebrities like Abrarul HAq,jawad ahmad and omar shareef are getting attracted towards Islam. yes ISLAM which irks you people most.

    Do remember that u r nothing but a helpless creature and at the end of the day you will hurt only yourself only. Learn to live with others rather abuse them due to different ideology. Deal with the things which are controlled by God rather than human beings. You can fight with me or with buunch of communities but nt with God. Learn some lessons from ancient communities who got destroyed by God. I don’t mind if you follow some cult and keep preaching about it but don’t curse and abuse members of other religions just because they are not like you.

  116. YLH says:
    November 6th, 2006 4:41 am

    Dear Adnan Siddiqui,

    So just because I don’t agree with you… I am not a Muslim? Wow… what tolerance.

    I am afraid you still haven’t given me any real evidence which suggests that Youhanna was not forced to convert …
    Like I pointed out… I would appreciate an honest conversion when I see one… I consider Muhammad Ali Clay’s conversion a great step for us Muslims… but Youhanna was forced. Lets call a spade a spade… shall we?

    Islam is a great faith… we don’t need to force our minorities to convert to it… there was a time when the great Dr. B R Ambedkar thought about converting to Islam… now that would have been an achievement.:

    http://nation.ittefaq.com/artman/publish/article_31798.shtml

  117. November 6th, 2006 5:08 am

    i didn’t call you a non-muslims, yes noone can reject that there re sects within Islam who appear as *Muslims* and everybody knows about those cults. You are the one who just stick on a statment and follow it blindly. You have NO proof to support your statment. I would certainly not like to engage you further. Growup kid and instead of throwing empty statments, come with proofs.

    [quote post="376"]Lets call a spade a spade… shall we?[/quote]

    I would prefer to call a troll a troll and that is you. Chal tu jeeta may hara . can you move on now? don’t bother to come back to me again.

  118. Hassan says:
    November 6th, 2006 12:01 pm

    Thank you ATP for stopping this. Sometimes people seem to enjoy picking fights and starting arguments for their own sake. I hope both my friends will accept that winning does not mean having the last word. Otherwise, there is no end to this. Make your case and then let people decide, please. Please, everyone, take this as brotherly advice and don’t turn this message into another war of words.

  119. November 6th, 2006 5:30 am

    [quote post="376"]Do you follow a sect/cult that appears to be Muslim but is not?[/quote]

    :)
    whatever hamdani you think, it doesnt matter me at all. Do you want to declare yourself victorious on this forum? Ok you’re victorious. whatever you think/do/react is right and rest of the others are wrong. Ok now? now take rest and chill.

    before I leave you all alone, I want to tell you something:

    Yousuf youhana is now known as Muhammad Yousuf :>

    have fun!!

  120. YLH says:
    November 6th, 2006 5:39 am

    Dear Adnan,

    Being known doesn’t mean anything. Youhanna is Youhanna…
    You remind me of how people were during the time of the Spanish inquisition… where Muslims were forcibly converted or pressured into converting to Christianity. Ultimately it was the Spanish Inquisition which led to the marginalisation of Christianity in Europe. Looking at you, one can expect the same for Islam in the near future. As for winning or losing… hardly. I am not here in a competition.

  121. Aaquib says:
    November 15th, 2006 1:22 pm

    Seems like we have another contriversy on the way with some players complaining that music played during intervals is interfering with their prayers.

  122. November 6th, 2006 11:14 am

    Dear friends, I think both of you (YLH and Adnan S.) have now adequately and repeatedly made your points. They do not need to be repeated again. You can safely assume that whoever needed to be convinced of whatever either already is, or will not be with further to and fro on this. Can we please request that this particular thread of discussion here be considered completed.

    You are, of course, very welcome to continue your personal conversation on this elsewhere or off-line. We look forward to continue seeing you on ATP discussing other things. Regards and thanks.

  123. Hassan says:
    November 19th, 2006 12:14 pm

    Interesting that the new PCB head organzied a seminar to discuss the performance of the team. from this on CricInfo ( http://content-usa.cricinfo.com/australia/content/current/story/268930.html ) it did not go very well.

    Meeting notable for absentees
    PCB holds seminar on future of Pakistan cricket
    Cricinfo staff
    November 19, 2006
    The Pakistan Cricket Board organised a seminar at Lahore earlier this week to assess the state of the game in the country. Called ‘Creating a Winning Team: The Future of Cricket in Pakistan’, the seminar had participants from all over Pakistan and abroad and included former players, administrators and journalists.

    Coming barely two months into the tenure of the new PCB chairman Nasim Ashraf, the seminar looked at ways and means of improving the infrastructure at the grassroots level, of obtaining commercial backing to do that, and the role of coaches and captains. Formulating a strategy to win the World Cup, to be held in the Caribbean in less than six months’ time, dominated the discussions.

    The absence of legendary former captains like Imran Khan and Javed Maindad, and of Inzamam-ul-Haq and Bob Woolmer, obviously deprived the seminar of crucial inputs. It also provided ammunition to sceptics who denounced the seminar as just another ritual and a publicity-seeking exercise.

  124. Waqas says:
    November 29th, 2006 5:19 pm

    Salam aleikum

    Well to me Islam as a religion of Tolerance can even Tolerate secular people But can Secularism(Western Secularism) Tolerate Islam? I dont have to give answers here we all know.

    People who want to practice their religion whether Hindu, Buddhist, Christian, Jain, Parsi etc are free and should be free to practice their religion anywhere they want.

    If some Pakistani players want to pray then thats very good. There is no harm in praying. Since prayers keeps us united we stand shoulder to shoulder so it is obvious that Players will perform well in the field and they will be united when they pray together.

    Religion of Islam cannot be forced and was never forced its just a propaganda taught by the western world to us muslims and we muslims(some of us) are listening more to their propaganda then to the actual reality.

    I completely agree with Article written by this great man here is the link which was posted by writer of this article too http://inblogs.net/kadnan/2006/10/removing-inzamam-religion-factor.html

    Dr Nasim Ashraf if had said anything like that then its shame for us as muslims because we have zero tolerance for islam.

    But if Dr Nasim Ashraf had not said anything like it then its a Shame for our Media who is performing these rumors just to make enthusiasm. And they are lieing in the name of Freedom.

    Peace you all

    Salam aleikum

  125. February 26th, 2007 11:55 pm

    i am very happy that mohammed yousuf is convertedto islam
    i want danish kaneria should convert to islam thats all for
    i love pakistani team thankyou

  126. yahya brett lee says:
    March 8th, 2007 5:25 pm

    i didn’t know that did danish kaneria muslim?

  127. Rafay Kashmiri says:
    October 20th, 2007 6:36 pm

    Believing, being, practicing, expressing, behaving
    in accordance with your religion, is one of the essential universal human right whether, you are in a cricket team
    or in a college, businessman, prof, etc.

    If it is not practiced or allowed then thats the flagrant
    violation and nothing else, you can lecture on every
    social order or idyllic, its all empty baloon, and thats
    in a country calling herself Muslim !!

  128. Erwin says:
    March 31st, 2008 8:25 pm

    OKay. I am sure when Pakistani players pray namaj and show their faith in public, that’s because they give their faith and belief more priority than cricket. and there’s nothing wrong in it. as long as they r doing their professional duties for which they r paid for, what’s wrong guys?!!!!!!! and beside what mr ashraf is saying, or if he by any chance wants to point out that practising their faith, Pakistani cricketers r diverging their concentration and religious practice is causing pakistan the game then he should know that for inner motivation noone else does now know what really motivates someone and what does not than the person himself.

  129. Jalaaluddin says:
    April 11th, 2008 5:36 am

    i believing that all pelayers must pray to God before start of match and after the match is over during lunch time.
    Brothers, Pakistan meaning land of pure, so pelayers should pray.

    people like Danish kaneria and Soab Aktar who dont do pray must be taught to do so.

    Our unity lies in praying and playing

    Peacebe on you all

    ASSalam aleikum

  130. readinglord says:
    May 19th, 2009 7:35 pm

    I say why involve God in this dirt business of the cricket which is no longer a sport now but a commercial extravaganza.

  131. November 3rd, 2009 9:19 am

    We should be proud of it. God bless those who are trying to promot most peaceful religion.

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