Lal Masjid Storm Chinese Massage Parlor and Kidnap 9

Posted on June 23, 2007
Filed Under >Darwaish, Law & Justice, Minorities, People, Politics, Religion
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Darwaish

Jamia Hafsa-brothel caseIn another dramatic development last night, dozens of armed Lal Masjid and Jamia Hafsa students stormed into a Chinese Beauty Parlor (massage centere) and kidnapped 9 people including 6 women and 3 men. All people are apparently of Chinese nationality. The incident occurred late Friday night.

According to Lal Masjid and Jamia Hafsa students, a brothel was being run under the name of massage centre and they have held Chinese men and women hostage for ‘Islah’.

I was watching Geo News just a few minutes ago and Chinese Government has strongly condemned this incident and demanded an appropriate action. Daily Times reports:

Lal Masjid and Jamia Hafsa students raided a Chinese massage centre in Sector F-8/3 and took hostage five Chinese nationals, including three women and two men, on late Saturday night in Islamabad, Geo television reported. According to the channel, two vehicles full of armed seminary students raided the massage centre, abducted the staff and brought them to the mosque. Geo reported Jamia Hafsa administration as alleging that a brothel was being run under the garb the massage centre. The Lal Masjid clerics could not be contacted as they had switched off their mobile phones. Islamabad Capital Territory (ICT) officials reached the seminary and were trying to secure the release of the abducted Chinese through dialogue, it reported. Earlier, the students had abducted an alleged brothel owner and released her after a couple of days. They had also abducted and later released two police personnel.

This is another very serious act after holding policemen hostage for several weeks. I am really worried about this new trend of kidnappings. This is becoming ‘I don’t like you so I am going to kidnap you, beat the hell out of you and fix you (Islah)’. I wonder what is next? If government tries to settle this matter by force, the results could be a bloody clash and loss of life. Surely, this time a serious action will be taken.

I agree with the argument that brothels exist everywhere in today’s Pakistan. But is this the right way to do Islah? If our security and law enforcing agencies do their job properly, such incidents can never happen. Just blaming students of Lal Masjid and Jamia Hafsa is no good. The failure and inability of State of Pakistan to act when most needed, is equally responsible for this embarrassing situation and making us all look like a nation of extremists (both ends), illiterate ignorants and a bunch of fools.

What is Government of Pakistan is going to do? Why can’t we have a permanent solution to this embarrassment? Tough question.

117 Comments on “Lal Masjid Storm Chinese Massage Parlor and Kidnap 9”

  1. AJ says:
    June 23rd, 2007 6:36 am

    Listening to reports, it seems Lal Masjid leaders might release the abductees within the next 2 days. The right strategy will be to wait until the release and then launch an action to close the facility and arrest the leaders. The government has pussy-footed long enough.

  2. Neena says:
    June 23rd, 2007 6:42 am

    It is so sad to see the poor conditions of Rawalpindi with so many women and underage beggars and these Hafsa people who supposedly playing a moral police role keep a blind eye for such destitute. They are worried about the morals of those people who are aware of right and wrong and its consequences. Tsk Tsk. What a world coming into, they don’t even know where their help is needed.

  3. Saad says:
    June 23rd, 2007 7:08 am

    Have you people ever heard the term, ‘topi-drama’? It seems like this one is happening right before our noses.

  4. June 23rd, 2007 7:10 am

    I entirely agree with Neena and AJ

    Who authorized them to abduct foreigners?

    If you ask them, I bet they don’t have any proof of what ever they are claiming. There are many Chinese in Pakistan running Parlours restaurants and other businesses. This in another blow to Pak- Chinese’s relationship and foreign investment.

    No group should be allowed to practice such powers.

  5. June 23rd, 2007 7:18 am

    Do you know such moral police operates in Saudi Arabia.

    But guess what they are authorized.

  6. Aqil Sajjad says:
    June 23rd, 2007 7:22 am

    I agree, the way these jokers have been allowed to continue like this is making it increasingly look like a topy drama.

    One can not help asking where the intelligence agencies and the rest of the state machinery are where you need them. Perhaps they are too busy trying to pressure the civil society and judiciary to do something about the lal masjid issue.

  7. axiomatic says:
    June 23rd, 2007 7:29 am

    At time I feel ashamed of our shallowness as a nation. For a nation to exist as a nation, there ought to be a set of common values, dreams, tradition and heritage in which all sections of that nation truly believe. I ask as a Pakistani and as a Muslim, what is my set of values that I am supposed to adhere to? Where is my heritage as the member of this great nation? Is it in that Chinese massage parlour? Or is it in Jama Hafsa? And which one of the two is right? Is a western set of fake ideals including ‘free sex’ more acceptable to us than a benign way to protest by some powerless girls? Total lack of justice in this twisted society is more acceptable to us than a Sharia court? Gross obscenity storming our homes is more acceptable to us than a call for Pardah?

    I mean, who are we people?

  8. Dogar says:
    June 23rd, 2007 8:04 am

    Axiomatic… Yes, obsceenity IS preferable to criminality.

    Let God be the judge of people including these Lal Masjid Taliban … they are teh true enemies of Islam…. the people who are destroying Islam today are these Lal Masjid wallahs….

  9. Neena says:
    June 23rd, 2007 8:17 am

    Yup it’s obscene to witness that noone can operate a business in NWFP, rural Sindh and Baloachistan which can save families from hunger while these Mullhas are busy living a posh life and creating hoopla over petty things.

  10. June 23rd, 2007 8:17 am

    Actually, a friend of mine was telling me that this “acupuncture centre” actually DOES provide sexual services.

    Of course I condemn the Lal Masjid vigilantes, but I figured we ought to put things in perspective. :P

  11. Naveed Butt says:
    June 23rd, 2007 9:06 am

    Actually, we have to ask ourselves, being muslims, what we ought to be? Are we gona lose our moral values? if so, then who should come forward to stop this kind of evil deeds which are widely spreading around? Government or us? if Government is not looking to be serious or even giving any hope by saying,”yes we will stop this evil, we’ll take measures” then who’ll come to stop all this? someone from the skies or ourselves? Let the things drive us the way it is going now…modernism at the cost of religious values or let us drive the things towards the modernism but not at the cost of true values? Who is gona pave to stop such kind of evil things, especially if the government is not gona do it? We should wait for +ve mesures from government?…how long we have to wait for this? Who forced these people to take up such measures themselves to stop this evil..government?We cannt smell which way we are being lead to?Let’s say these people are doing “Topi drama” who gave them this opportunity to use this as a tool

  12. Tariq says:
    June 23rd, 2007 9:19 am

    طلبÛ

  13. axiomatic says:
    June 23rd, 2007 9:28 am

    Well, none of you has answered some of the basic questions I asked. So let me reduce them to one. What is that thing, that singular value system, because of which we qualify to be called Pakistanis?

    There’s a wine shop just below my office. I see young boys and girls buying booze going to parties. Prostitution is rampant. There is law and order only when and where it suits the government. Pakistani citizens are being killed ruthlessly by friends and foes alike to serve foreign interests. Look at our Chief justice who is in a limbo for more than 03 months, waiting for justice. What happens to a common man is anybody’s guess.

    I have not said that everything Lal Masjid ‘Brigade’ (look at the biased term) is doing justifies, but rather than condemning the reaction in strongest terms, shouldnt we condemn the action first rather more harshly?

    Or do you approve of the ‘actions’, because in that case, even God will not save us.

  14. ayesha sajid says:
    June 23rd, 2007 9:28 am

    I am a little confused on how one should re act to this latest scenario of the self proclaimed schions of Islam taking the law in thier own hand.
    On one hand the problems with brothels operating in our society is a valid concern and on the other the Jamia Hafsa constantly taking the law into thier hands is also a dangerous trend.
    My first reaction to the morning headlines in the newspaper regarding the latest fiasco was … these people should be stormed and shot , one to all ….
    Reading more about the situation showed that perhaps these people ARE actually trying to tell the govt to wake up and do some thing about these issues.

    Ofcourse there are worse issues that are plaguing our society and when one does not see the Jamia Hafsa admin doing anything about them , one feels , why are these people obbsessed with women, brothels, prostitution and related offences ?

  15. Bundagi says:
    June 23rd, 2007 9:43 am

    Seriously before even talking about how to be a Pakistani and handling law and order, we need to stop being a “MOB”…

  16. axiomatic says:
    June 23rd, 2007 9:48 am

    The thing is, it’s not their primary responsibility to speak or protest about every issue. All of us are equally responsible. And primarily, the government is responsible. If the government is not doing it, and Jama Hafsa is highlighting some of the issues in a rather crude manner as per their understanding, the question is: What are we doing? Condemning the actions of Jama Hafsa, calling them Danda Bardar and Brigade and urging the government to quash them out of existence?

    I think no nation deserves to exist if it hates it’s own roots this much.

  17. ayesha sajid says:
    June 23rd, 2007 10:31 am

    axiomatic , just a question to clear up any mis conceptions i might have with your last sentence.

    “I think no nation deserves to exist if it hates it’s own roots this much.”

    Are you saying that we have our roots in having no respect for the law , for being militant if we dont get our way, for kidnapping and brandishing women without a fair trial, for being the prosecuter/judge/jury ourselves, for being in tolerant, are those our roots ?

  18. Shueyb Gandapur says:
    June 23rd, 2007 10:39 am

    Musharraf’s complicity in the whole Lal Masjid drama seems quite obvious. Those, who publicly kidnap citizens and illegally occupy government property, move around giving TV interviews, holding press conferences justifying their acts, and there’s no one to touch them. How else is this possible without acquiescence from the very top?

    On the other hand, one of our settled cities, Tank, has fell to the Taliban. There is no sign of government writ there. And no man can speak a word against the Taliban for fear of the lives of their families.

  19. June 23rd, 2007 10:52 am

    A mosque being used as a front for Terrorist activity- super !

    And come on, Chinese ‘immoral’ people- puhleeeese. If Pakistan mullah wanted Immoral activities to be stopped Hira Mandi would have been closed years ago, and don’t tell me there are no other brothels in Islamabad with Pakistani muslim women- but then that doesn’t create a controversy and make Aziz bigger than he wants to be recognized.

  20. Shueyb Gandapur says:
    June 23rd, 2007 11:20 am

    axiomatic: What is that thing, that singular value system, because of which we qualify to be called Pakistanis?

    I am Pakistani because I was born of Pakistani parents in Pakistan. I have a Pakistani passport. Whichever set of values I may subscribe to, I will still be a Pakistani. There is no such thing that I can do to qualify being a Pakistani.

  21. June 23rd, 2007 11:21 am

    A very appropriate header image for today’s post: Maula Jat. That is what this latest criminal act from a bunch of students is all about. They are basically trying to tell the country that this nation only listens to danda. So whoever has danda (army or a mob of students), they get the say. WIll we stand up against this?…
    What surprises me is AAJ TV’s report that students from Beaconhouse school were also involved in this tamaashaa. One would have thought they were taught better to not take law in their own hands. But may be not.

  22. Adnan Siddiqi says:
    June 23rd, 2007 11:33 am

    a/c to BbC, those chinese have been freed. BTW chinese were not kidnapped first time. So many time they have been kidnapped in interior sind and Gawadar so don’t worry about china-pak relationship :>


    one feels , why are these people obbsessed with women,

    you wana say that others don’t obsessed with women>


    brothels, prostitution and related offences ?

    at one side you say “offences” and then you ask why are they after all these things? i think you are confused yourself or you wana say that you are ready to allow mentioned things next to your home?

    @kron: do ask your friend to tell yuo the address so that you can publish here as it would be helpful for liberals and seculars who live in ISB :-)

  23. nashus says:
    June 23rd, 2007 11:35 am

    انÛ

  24. Rahat says:
    June 23rd, 2007 11:43 am

    who has given the authority to the Lal masjid extremists for improving the morals of people of Pakistan? What is the reason for the Government’s inaction and passiveness? Is Kidnapping of foreigners a very moral activity? Can a group of extremists decide what is moral and immoral for the society and for individuals and even for non-muslims?

    The above indicates the state of poor affairs of management of our affairs in Pakistan at present with no optimism emanating from any quarter.

  25. Peace says:
    June 23rd, 2007 11:54 am

    I totally support Neena’s views. Adding more to that I would like mention that more than 60% of our population is uneducated. Majority of our people can not even think of getting medical treatment. How many people get justice in our country. There are so many other issues to pay attention to. Dealing with those issues should be our priorities. What do you make of it that Lal Masjid students were busy in raiding some house while some poor men died because they could not get medical treatment on time? Have you guys ever considered building decent accommodation for people of “Kachhee Basttee” in Islamabad? We have EGO problem. I am THIS and I am THAT. I know everything about Islam and everything should be the way I want. I am always right.

  26. Peacenik says:
    June 23rd, 2007 12:25 pm

    First of all, please note that all acts of Lal Masjid have been against women…. so basically somehow tying morality into a woman’s being.
    Secondly, I wonder what is more immoral:
    What happened to Mukhtaran or the Chinese center, the hundreds of hunger-suicides or Aunty Shamim, the honor-killings or…. the list can go on and on…
    and axiomatic and Naveed, why can there not be a happy median? Why must be there two polarized worlds of obscenity or the Lal Masjid version of Islam? Why can we not occupy the median realm, that we seemed to be occupying till the Mullah was unleashed on us in the 80s.

  27. RNR Junction says:
    June 23rd, 2007 12:41 pm

    Now is the time, LAL MASJID Students (Taliban), stop them now or they will prove that Islam is really a barbaric religion, which is definitely not true.
    I say Government should take a strict action and put these hypocrite illiterate so called Muslim behind bar where they belong.

  28. Washingtonian says:
    June 23rd, 2007 12:52 pm

    All I want to know is why have they not Kidnappend the Mullahs who molest and rape the Boys in the Mudrassa and the Molvees who regulrly molest the innocent Boys and Girls that they teach Quran…. and WHAT ABOUT the gangs that take children from their parents and drug them, distort their bodies and put them on the streets to beg???

    If their agenda is to take imorality out of society, then begin with you own people….then work on the Chinese…

    The simple reality is that for us Pakistanis Islam is a a culture not a religion and ABOVE ALL we only practice it when concenient for us… and only when it serves our agenda…

    We all deserve to go to hell…. and we are well on our way…

  29. June 23rd, 2007 1:00 pm

    I was reading dawn in morning and i found ‘extremist’ the most used term on its front page. I feel some1 is generating and manipulating all this hype of ‘talibanization or extremism’. No one in Pakistan can do all these TOPI DRAMAS in a capital with prior getting nod of highups. Further in my opinion, such dramas have considerable contribution towards changing public attention from hot issues and changing public ideas about tolerance in religion as well as clerics. Who want all this:)

  30. Sharuk says:
    June 23rd, 2007 2:04 pm

    Lets just say student of lal masjid are doing the right thing which is what our governmnt should have done long time ago, but if you consider brothel a bad place then who the hell is going there and supporting their business.. hmmm let me think… they are no-other then Pakistani people after all. huh?
    Any business stays in business if there is exponantial demand of its product. My dear country’s people love wasting money and time on such rubbish and sick activities.
    Student of Lal masjid are ignoring the fact that this is not the only place in pakistan where this kind of activity is booming. There are lot of brothels and booze houses all around Pakistan that nobody gives a damn about. I just want to say that if you want Pakistan to be a better place to live then don’t try to fix other people’s character instead just improve yourself and others will follow.

  31. June 23rd, 2007 2:29 pm

    Nice balance Darwaish.

    I dont know why some commentators here are talking about Lal Masjid to improve the economic welfare of the society. Are physicians responsible to fix my broken car? Maybe its not so strange when we have serial killers turned to urban planners, when we have dhoodh-waalas becoming law ministers, when we have military playing democracy-democracy, we as ‘subjects’ do tend to ask everything from just about anyone. Lal Masjid is a religious institution, and any religion’s first level of capability is a value system for morality. Followed by other systems like economy, welfare, governance, etc etc.

    In the sorry state of religious competency of Pakistani religious institutes (for whatever reasons), most of them focus on the first factor and thats morality. If they are just focusing on this niche, y the hell r we so demanding of them to broaden their sphere of business without providing them the favorable business conditions (for a start, stop hating the beard).

    Now, why they are taking this authority in thier own hands, besides the ‘behind-the-curtains’ situation which is most likely the case here,they just want to be heard, the authorities to be dont represent the public. We are an Islamic Republic of Pakistan and such openness to anti-Islamic elements dont make us good advocates of Islam just like talibans dont make good advocates of Islam.

    However, its a paradoxical decision to be made, if the government do listen to them and act, this would send a strong signal that ‘might is right’, if they dont, the oppressed will have yet another reason to retaliate the government through various means including the unpleasant ones.

    On the matter of education as someone brought up above, its better not to mix education with literacy? Those with literacy have practiced more power to achieve their malice. And globally, the so-called education is about skill building, all the way to doctoral studies, most of the streams r that. How many people study morality and related disciplines and be called truly educated by its practice? Its just the lack of this practice by the so-called educated that we dont have medical treatment for the masses, when we dont have drinking water for the masses, when we dont have justice for the masses. What have the so-called education ever done to change all this? Increasing school attendance doesnot stop our national criminals. That helps another cause, to improve our standard of living (either in Pakistan (rare) or brain drained abroad).

    And some readers are putting some very strong allegations mostly related to child and sexual abuse to the more-religiously inclined people. I wonder whether they have any proves of that and is the frequency of such events so high to consider it a phenomena or to classify a particular group with such acts?

    The government should take responsibility of maintaining justice especially including the Islamic justice areas as described in the constitution.

  32. Reluctant Expatriate says:
    June 23rd, 2007 4:39 pm

    Lal Masjid maulvis should consider teaching moral values to the so called Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz. He is the one who has publically stated that he can charm any woman in two minutes.

  33. Reluctant Expatriate says:
    June 23rd, 2007 4:40 pm

    Lal Masjid maulvis should consider teaching moral values to the Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz. He is the one who has publically stated that he can charm any woman in two minutes.

  34. zia says:
    June 23rd, 2007 4:44 pm

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=4b-_lS2wjAY

    check out this itsss reallyyy funny…….

  35. zia says:
    June 23rd, 2007 4:44 pm
  36. axiomatic says:
    June 23rd, 2007 5:03 pm

    Ayesha,’Are you saying that we have our roots in having no respect for the law , ….?’

    Which ‘law’ are you talking about? Is there any law in Pakistan? It must be the same law under which more than 40 people were killed on May 12. Or the same law under which our supreme court is hearing ‘arguments’ on the chief justice case for last 03 months, whereas the truth is clear even to a layman. Is it the same law under which the brothels are being run? Is it the same law under which reference has been filed against Imran Khan and chief justice? have you ever been to a police station and seen what happens there, how ‘law’ is put into practice? Ever been to a court to get justice? Pray that you dont have to!

    And let me ask you now, are our roots in massage parlours, injustice, dogged loyalty to foreign masters, killing our fellow nationals after branding them extremist and militant?

    How many of us know Namaz-e-Janaza? If, God forbids, some of our near ones dies, we cannot even say his last riots properly and go running to a Mullah whom we otherwise never tire of abusing. Mullah, whatever wretched state he might be in, is still our last weak link to our religion, of which we are so tired that we are not even able to tolerate even its last remaining signs, however distorted.

    Those who are saying why Lal Masjid doesnt do this or that should ask themselves what have they done to reform the society, or even their immediate neighborhoods?

    And Shueyb, have you heard of an African country named Rawanda? Do you know that Tutsi and Hutu tribes were both ‘born’ there, and Hutus killed more than one million Tutsis in a campaign of genocide. This is what happens when people ‘born’ in one country, having same ‘passports’ dont share a common ideology.

  37. Toryalai says:
    June 23rd, 2007 5:33 pm

    Who’s going to keep an eye on the single men, roaming in and out of the Lal mosque, as there are many examples of young men in the madressah enviroment who have been implicated in homosexuality. And often these young boys are exploited by their Mullahs? Who is going to monitor them?

  38. Peacenik says:
    June 23rd, 2007 6:39 pm

    >>>>>of which we are so tired that we are not even able to tolerate even its last remaining signs, however distorted>>>>>.

    You are right about this axiomatic. This form of Islam is becoming tiresome. You will be surprised at how many atheists or former Muslims there are in Pakistan. They just do not declare it openly because of fear of death…but there are many people I know who privately confess to being non-believers…. and I do not blame them. If this is the version of Islam that is the loudest, then I am afraid it will ultimately implode. My significant other is so disgusted with everything that he/she is considering becoming a buddhist.

  39. Kruman says:
    June 23rd, 2007 11:24 pm

    Lal masjid should be destroyed in accordance with Quranic injuctions to demolish mosques that are used to spread “fasad fil arz”.

    The government should give a 1 hour notice for all criminals in the Lal masjid to hand themselves over to the police. After the deadline the place should be stormed by army.

    Sadly the government is itself abetting the criminals and terrorists inside lal masjid

  40. Ayaz Khan says:
    June 23rd, 2007 11:54 pm

    Dear All,

    The society in Pakistan is now beset with so many evils. There is corruption rampant, bribery is a way of life, weighing less is part of business , policemen are the biggest thugs of all, the army regularly conquors Pakistan the list is endless. Than all these people claim to be pious as well. Its like Julius Ceaser when it was said for brutus is an honorable man. These honorable man of our country has sold everything including the country down the river. Why dont the self appointed guardians of morality try to correct any of these ? Why dont a group of them goes and sits in the police station to ensure no bribery takes place. Why dont some of them goes and sits in the Government offices to see that work is done smoothly without any sifarish ? Why dont they check the electricity bills to see that the meter reader is doing his job without any gratification. Why dont a large group of them goes to karachi and save the mohajirs from the terror of MQM. Why dont they take up the cudgel against kabza group. The answer is simple. They are puppet on a string and the master puppeteer is sitting on his throne surrounded by his cronies (the colloborators) and making the puppet dance to their tune. The correction of society is not their agenda. It never was and it never will be.

  41. Shehzad Ahmed Mir says:
    June 24th, 2007 2:30 am

    Hmmmm… Masjid Hafsa vs the oldest profession in the world…I wonder who’ll win?

  42. Ibrahim says:
    June 24th, 2007 4:00 am

    Salamalikum,

    I agree with what Atif and axiomatic have said, but I want to make a different point here. I put part of the blame on the kibaar/big ulema of Pakistan. Why haven’t they gone to Abdul Aziz and advise him and reprimand him and tell him to be in accordance with Islam. Just suspending membership of his madrasa from wafaqul madaaris is not enough. Maybe they have gone to him; then, I don’t put blame on them.

    I have mentioned this before when the previous Lal masjid issue came up here that there is a complete ijema of scholars of Islam that awam/people cannot take implementation/enforcement of shariat in their own hands. And, you can look at history and this is proven. For example, why did all four imams, from Abu Hanifa to Ahmed ibn Hanbal, die in jail or due to torture in jail but never asked their followers to raid the city, the government, enforce the shariat themselves? And, believe me they had the type of following that we can’t imagine today.

    I know it seems difficult to come to terms with this point, but if Allah taala has imposed a government on a Muslim society that wants nothing to do with shariat then the most we can do is raise our voices in non-fitna (non violent) way and to educate ourselves, learn from the ulema, know the Quran/tafseer, hadith, fiqh, etc. Change the society from within instead of enforcing a law here and there.

    As the hadith says, Islam is the middle path. And, by middle path I’m not talking about today’s push for “moderation”. For example, Islam doesn’t say no death penalty for adultery. On the other hand, it also doesn’t say that if you find two people in the act of adultery, just go ahead and kill them. No, Islam takes the middle path instead: It says bring four witnesses/prove it to a judge and then if proven the judge will pass the penalty of death. And, if accusation is not proven, the accuser gets punished with lashes (qazaf).

    Now, where in shariat does it say to go ahead and kidnap people on your own based on suspicion or some inside information? Where is the process of going to a qazi/judge? If one says there is no system like today, then be patient and educate the society and leave rest to Allah. And, this is not my opinion. One can verify this with any knowledgeable scholar.

    Just look at what Lal masjid has done: It has allowed people who don’t want much of shariat anyways to accuse the ulema of immoral activities, make fun of shaar (signs) of shariat, etc. Correcting a fitna in a non-Islamic way will have no barakat from Allah and will result in greater fitna and hurt Islam. The evidence is in front of you all to see!

    I say, yes support Islam but don’t support actions that aren’t part of this religion even if they are being carried out for Islam. I don’t question the intentions of Lal masjid and Jamia hafsa women but their lack of knowledge is evident and their actions reflect that. Allahu alam

  43. tina says:
    June 24th, 2007 4:31 am

    Reluctant E.–

    really, did Shaukat Aziz say that? I knew there was something I found creepy about that guy. He strikes me as “slick”, same as Bill Clinton.

    anyway you hit on the root of the problem, which is really that there are three Pakistans–first, a highly Westernized elite Pakistan that does what it wants, including pursuing a lot of affairs and immoral activities. They will never go to jail no matter how much “zeena” they commit. I have even been propositioned quite directly in opulent drawing rooms by other women’s husbands in Clifton and Islamabad. These people don’t care about anything.

    On the other hand you have the working class Pakistanis, they have to try to improve themselves with all the power being held by the group above, if they want to rise above poverty they have to play their game. For them are the whippings and the jail sentences under the hudood ordinances. They are totally repressed and not just sexually. Let’s face it, the masajid does do some things for them. They resent the upper class drinking and carousing in their nice compounds and can you blame them? So to them the niqabi sisters nailing some Chinese ladies of pleasure and a few of their clients as well is a wonderful development.

    The third group is the educated expats and the middle class who are partly living off some remittances from abroad. I think these people make up the bulk of ATP readership–correct me if I’m wrong. They have seen the world and they know how sick all this is, but feel powerless to stop it.

    Let’s not overlook the class tensions that are driving some of these confrontations. I think it’s not enough to just say “mullahs are evil”. It’s going to end up being a choice between mullahs and the worst aspects of the West because the country is socially divided along the lines, not because such a choice is inevitable.

    Will the third goup garner enough clout to show Pakistan another way? Is there enough time for that? Will the elite ever allow it? These are the questions we should be asking……

  44. Adnan Siddiqi says:
    June 24th, 2007 6:21 am

    Kruman if I take your statment valid then the entire Illegal state which is called Islamabad today should be destroyed first because this place has buildings like Parliments, President and PM house who spreaded more fasad in Pakistan than any other place. So come out of your home my friend and burn these places so that one takes you seriously.

    those who are happy with brothels and similar places should allow to make arrangments so that these places should be established there. Those liberal and so called women rights loving women are worried about such places SHOULD allow their husbands nad sons to visit these places frequently then I will ask them how SECURE these women feel.

    On a side note, 32 people killed yesterday in Northern areas by American planes and 45 died in Karachi due to heavy rain and here we are whining about chinese ladies. what a nation we are! :S

  45. June 24th, 2007 6:52 am

    we are enlightened moderate nation
    :)

  46. asa says:
    June 24th, 2007 7:47 am

    ohhh how much we worried abt chinese delgation wat abt 5/12 massacre 48 ppl died & 34 ppl died in northern waziristan no investigation yet even no any condolence statement abt our beloved dictator .

  47. Ayaz Khan says:
    June 24th, 2007 8:34 am

    I think the root of the problem lies in rule of law. There is a law to stop almost every evil , big or small , serious or not that serious. The problem really in the implementation of it. The causes and its effect of people breaking the law is a different discussion. A women getting propositioned is something that can happen in any level of society and in any strata. Here in Lal Masjid the bone of contention is not Mullahs but the action of a group of people in trying to impelemnet their brand of thinking on others. Its a matter of one group taking the law in to their own hand. What happns to the society than ? Off-course its going to snowball into anarchy. A wild west where everyone defends his own view ( right or wrong) by arms or ability to destruct. The independence of judiciary can play a major role in getting law of the land established in Pakistan. Infact if we contemplate most of the problems can be solved if we have a place of appeal where justice is guranteed. So the first question is the wisdom of taking the law into your own hand which leads to anarchy. The second question , and a big question mark at that is the sincerity of this group of zealots. If past history is taken into account and their actions analyzed independently it does began to seem as they are serving some other interest. Whether its a level of distraction or a demonstration of what is the replacement like or just muddying the water God only knows. But may I remind the people on this forum about hathora group and different other theater played on the stage of Pakistan on the cost of Pakistani public. Its time for us to decide what do we want. Independence of judiciary or anarchy, democracy or dictatorship, fascist parties or genuine democratic parties, enlightened view of islam or narrow own interpreted views rammed down our throat. Pakistan is at crossroad of its history and believe me sir its a battle for survival.

  48. BitterTruth says:
    June 24th, 2007 8:41 am

    one wrong activity can’t justify another. Does 5/12 give Aziz Brothers right to take law in their hand? I agree to Ibrahim point of view that all ulemas should condemn in a more forceful and visible way.
    Btw why mush administration is so patient when it comes to Lal masjid and allow massacre when its CJP case.. daal main kuch kala hai

  49. Nazir says:
    June 24th, 2007 8:48 am

    According to Ijazul Haque, Ch Shujaat has been a client of this massage centre. Too bad Shujaat wasn’t there at the time for special treatment by lal masjid guys.

  50. Nazir says:
    June 24th, 2007 9:31 am

    Lal masjid molvi’s own words;

    غازی عبدالرشید کا Ú©Û

  51. Kruman says:
    June 24th, 2007 10:59 am

    Adnan please stop being an apologetic for the terrorists in Lal Masjid. The statement I made is not mine, it is based on an ayat in the Quran.

    The only way to wipe out extremism is to act in accordance with the Quranic injuction to deal with “fasad fil arz” that orders destruction of mosques used to spread fasad.

    It is the duty of the state, not individuals, to put an end to preaching of fasad from the pulpits.

    As for your comment on Islamabad being an illegal state, I can understand people speaking our against corrupt generals and politicians and punishing them. But talking about destroying your capital is just insane.

  52. ayesha sajid says:
    June 24th, 2007 11:58 am

    Adnan sahab , we are not talking about the ‘OTHERS’ as you so pointedly put , we are talking about the Jamia Hafsa admin here and they seem to be obbsessed with women related crimes … also at no place did i justify the presence of brothels hence the phrase “related offences”.
    I would be really thankful if you would read the entire post and decipher the meanings before picking on random sentences. Had you read the post in its entiriety , you would have read that it says the Jamia Hafsa DO have a point , just that it should be wider in its circle instead of targeting women/.

    Axiomatic, so from what you are saying i read this in your lines … since there is no law in Pakistan , and hypothetically speaking, i do not agree with what you are saying here on this post , that should give me the right to send my guard with an army of hired gun totting people to yoru house and have you kidnapped, I shall keep you under arrest untill you succumb to my point of view

  53. ayesha sajid says:
    June 24th, 2007 12:04 pm

    Adnan sahab , we are not talking about the ‘OTHERS’ as you so pointedly put , we are talking about the Jamia Hafsa admin here and they seem to be obbsessed with women related crimes … also at no place did i justify the presence of brothels hence the phrase “related offences”.
    I would be really thankful if you would read the entire post and decipher the meanings before picking on random sentences. Had you read the post in its entiriety , you would have read that it says the Jamia Hafsa DO have a point , just that it should be wider in its circle instead of targeting women/.

    Axiomatic, so from what you are saying i read this in your lines … since there is no law in Pakistan , and hypothetically speaking, i do not agree with what you are saying here on this post , that should give me the right to send my guard with an army of hired gun totting people to yoru house and have you kidnapped, I shall keep you under arrest untill you succumb to my point of view. I may even release you once i have made a point in front of the world saying , this is what happens to the person who dis agrees with my point of view . As per your argments i shall be justified in doing all of the above so Is that the same way you are justifying the stance of Jamia Hafsa ?

    Just clearing mis conceptions mind you , no offence please.

  54. Nazir says:
    June 24th, 2007 1:27 pm

    [quote]
    i do not agree with what you are saying here on this post , that should give me the right to send my guard with an army of hired gun totting people to yoru house and have you kidnapped, I shall keep you under arrest untill you succumb to my point of view.
    [/quote]

    For above two people fell free to use this method..perhaps that will bring the point home…

    Latoon kay bhoot…:)

  55. Ibrahim says:
    June 24th, 2007 1:32 pm

    Salamalikum,

    Just to continue what Adnan has said and take time from focusing/debating this issue and contemplate on what has happened in Karachi due to rain/winds:

    Please pray for the people who died in Karachi due to heavy rain and winds. May Allah have mercy on them, forgive them, enter them in Jannat and raise them with our prophet (saw), ameen. As is routine, mostly poor people died! This reminds me of a hadith which is in both al-Bukhari and Muslim: Usamah bin Zaid (May Allah be pleased with him) reported: The Prophet (PBUH) said, “I stood at the gate of Jannah, and (I saw) that the majority of those who entered it are the poor, and the wealthy were kept confined.” I’ve stated just the first part of the hadith. The hadith is longer than what I have shown here. I think in another hadith or authentic explanation is that the rich will be stopped for questioning and many won’t enter because what they did with their wealth. Allahu alam

  56. Ayaz Khan says:
    June 24th, 2007 1:34 pm

    Under the present circumstances we can maybe concede that Jamia hafsa might have a point , however widening the circle does not justify the action. How can we condone or justify action by a group at their own behest and becoming the judge and the jury and the executioner ? Isnt that what anarchy is ? Plus who is going evaluate the correctness of their interpretation, the applicability of their judgement and the unbiased tinge of their action ? If we consider the extreme polarization in the society all three are likely to be faulty. Inthat case what will be the residual effect ? Infact all these actions and vigilante policies are not needed if we have supremacy of law in Pakistan and justice available to all.

  57. Kruman says:
    June 24th, 2007 1:46 pm

    Sorry for the spam, but for those who are interested, AAj is playing a recorded version of CJP’s address in Multan right now, 1:43pm (eastern time)

    Catch it on Aaj TV channel on jumptv.com.

  58. Wajahat says:
    June 24th, 2007 2:01 pm

    From Dawn, June 24, 2007.

    “Interestingly, Religious Affairs Minister Ijazul Haq said in a press conference that Chaudhry Shujaat and other important personalities used to visit the health clinic for medical aid.”

    Funny :)

  59. Tahir says:
    June 24th, 2007 3:35 pm

    Yet another drama orchestrated by Gen Musharraf to deflect attention away from the political crisis related to the suspension of the CJP. There is no way that something like this could happen without the connivance of the ISI.

  60. June 24th, 2007 4:06 pm

    @Ibrahim.
    wonderful part of hadith.

    Karachi needs more gutters than fancy fountains…

  61. Kruman says:
    June 24th, 2007 5:54 pm

    As far as I know the Chinese ladies were working in an acupuncture clinic.

    What is wrong with acupuncture that the Lal brigade kidnapped them?

  62. OS says:
    June 25th, 2007 2:59 am

    Why do people turn the other cheek to the rampant child abuse going on in madrassas and masajid ?
    Young boys are molested by the maulvis and this is an open secret.
    Everyone knows this happens, people just dont do anything about it because the offense is done by religious figures. Why don’t the Jamia Hafsa people kidnap THEM ? Is pedophilia a lesser crime than prostitution ?

  63. Kruman says:
    June 25th, 2007 3:34 am

    Allama Iqbal was right when he said, “Mulla fi sabilillah FASAD”.

    Baba Bulleh Shah was right too when he stated:
    Mullh tay mashalchi dohan iko chit
    Loka’n karday chanan par aap haneray vich

    Mulla and the torch bearer are alike
    Themselves steeped in darkness, giving light unto others

    Can anyone, especially the Lal brigade sympathisers tell me what is unislamic about acupuncture? I think the whole debate ends here.

  64. Kruman says:
    June 25th, 2007 3:38 am

    Yet another drama orchestrated by Gen Musharraf to deflect attention away from the political crisis related to the suspension of the CJP. There is no way that something like this could happen without the connivance of the ISI.

    Ali Ahmad Kurd stated today that MI and ISI are symbols and tools of state terror.

    How true!

  65. imrANwar says:
    June 25th, 2007 4:28 am
  66. imrANwar says:
    June 25th, 2007 5:14 am
  67. June 25th, 2007 5:21 am

    Kruman mian I was also usnig same Quranic to reply you. I am not backing LM management and in other post i already condemned their Action(to kidnap those ladies) but I am supporting their intention that is to remove filth from society in form of brothels. Also you should have read papers that students of a private school I think beconhouse also took part in that raid so it seems that something was fishy in that “Clinic”

    as far as Shuj is concerned, i think I now the reason why his health is getting worst day by day :-)

  68. June 25th, 2007 5:54 am

    Orya Maqbool rocks. It’s always interesting and worthy to read his writings.

  69. Nazir says:
    June 25th, 2007 6:03 am

    I have stopped being amazing me as to how the religiously inclined (Mullah wanaabee) never cease to show double standards (hypocrisy). They require four witnesses in case of a rape victim who is claiming rape and there is nothing to suggest otherwise, but will claim something “fishy” was going on without four witnesses actually seeing something “fishy” actually happening.

    Also, as I have quoted several posts above, lala masjid maulvi objected in nilofar affair on grounds that her method was wrong, in his opinion, even though she did it for a good cause (charity)…but this Maulvi himself and his supporters here use the exact opposite logic for themselves..trying to justify lal masjid’s wrong actions on grounds it was for the right purpose…with such lack of honesty no wonder there are butt of all criticism these days…

  70. khayam says:
    June 25th, 2007 6:55 am

    Salam upon you all

    Won’t comment on the activities of LAL MASJID, instead, TWO thumbs up for the comments all of you are posting here.Reading them make me believe that there is great hope, sooner or later Pakistan’s nation with such conscious thoughts will decide their fate and destiny.”EVERY MISTAKE SIGNALS CORRECTION NEEDED IN SYSTEM”

  71. June 25th, 2007 7:46 am

    So nazir according to your general theory of insanity,It’s OK to get involved in dirty business if it’s for sake of charity?

    when I see liberals try to use Islam or anyother thing for their personal fantasies, they don’t appear different than those whom they curse all the time. I wonder why do they need some support of Islam for their personal filth? If Nilofar had to do this then she didnt need to give her moronic fatwas that something is islamic or un-Islamic. They think they are fooling others or God by giving such statment while they are fool themselves.

  72. Aqil Sajjad says:
    June 25th, 2007 8:22 am

    Kruman:
    Just to clarify your question, the allegation by lal masjid is that they were also offering sexual services in that center and not just acupuncture. A friend of mine was telling me that this is indeed the case.

  73. June 25th, 2007 9:26 am

    Jamia Hafsa should protest against the government the steps they are taking is going to jeopardize the Islamic stand. they look like a ghunda force by doing such acts.

  74. Tariq says:
    June 25th, 2007 10:14 am

    Aqil, just out of interest, how does your friend know what goes on there? Is he a customer of theirs or is he employed there? Or is he merely relying on hearsay as you are?

  75. Tariq says:
    June 25th, 2007 10:16 am

    PS: You do know accusing someone of such acts without four witnesses is a punishable crime in Islam, right?

  76. AAQUIL says:
    June 25th, 2007 3:51 pm

    This will make the Army MAD as hell because Jamia Hifza has now interfered with their Lifestyle. These Massage parlors need translators because a lot of people get caught in that due to miscommunication.
    ;)
    Jamia Hifza should be shut down because these vigilantes are giving Pakistan a “badder” name.
    We don’t need Lal masjid walaon ki help.

  77. Mohan Preetam says:
    June 25th, 2007 4:04 pm

    Wow, I didn’t even know there were massage parlors in Pakistan with Chinese masseuses. Is Pakistan such a lucrative place for such services that people would come all the way from China to set up shop there? If this is true, my respect for Chinese people’s entrepreneurial talent goes up fivefold.

    I personally feel that it is pointless — and ultimately fruitless — to try to control human desire. If you ban one outlet for the expression of human nature, those repressed desires will find some other, more twisted means of escape. Regulation of morality in conservative societies is tricky business. When is enough enough? When are you going too far? In my native India, some of the vestiges of social conservatism (similar to attitudes in Pakistan) are dropping away — drinking is becoming more and more common, sexual taboos are coming down right and left. This is raising anxieties among many people, just as in Pakistan. It’s the Buddhists of Southeast and East Asia who I think have the most sophisticated attitude toward virtue and sin. Witness the huge and lurid prostitution scene in Thailand, yet that doesn’t stop them from being devout Buddhists. Nobody goes around stoning brothels and kidnapping madams and hookers. It’s all “live and let live.” I wonder if we Indians and Pakistanis could learn a thing or two from them.

  78. mazhar butt says:
    June 25th, 2007 5:15 pm

    If human desires are not controlled there would be no end to them. As per the poet Ghalib:

    HAZAARON KHWAHISHEIN AISI KE HER KHWAHISH PE DAM NIKLE
    BAHUT NIKLE MERE ARMAAN LAIKIN PHIR BHI KAM NIKLE !!

    ( THERE ARE THOUSANDS OF DESIRES IN MY HEART AND EACH DESIRE IS SUCH THAT IT’S HARD TO LIVE WITHOUT IT———– I AGREE I GOT MANY OF MY DESIRES FULFILLED BUT I STILL FEEL ONLY A VERY LITTLE OF THEM COULD BE CONSUMMATED)

    Why only be amazed at noticing massage parlors in Islamabad: these are present in all posh localities of Pakistan. I was told that one such ‘parlor’ operated in Karachi Defence where men were ”pleased” by women under the cover of ”massage”. These massage parlors and some beauty parlors are spreading ‘prostitution’ under the cover of ‘massage’ and ” primping” and no body is there to check them. They are glove in hand with the ”higher ups” of administration who would come to their rescue in case of any trouble by any complainant. The massage parlor and the so called ”chinese alternate ” health treatment parlor was indeed a den and the administrative authorities knew it well. But as I said the ‘bad and ugly’ ones have ‘longer hands’ than a law abiding citizen no one could ”touch ” them ! No complaint against them was entertained. Consequently what the Hafsa University girls did was quite warranted. Afterall, in an illegitimate regime someone stepping forth to suppress or end an evil is quite justified in its right. Look around yourself, you will find many many dens especially in posh areas of Defence and under the existing laws try to go against them and you will end up nowhere!

    Dont indulge in passing futile remarks on this page provided you think what was going on in the chinese parlor was morally justified or at all according to your faith as a muslim. Otherwise what mutterings I skimmed over on this page is nothing more than ‘futile intellectual and childish flirtation” for self-satisfaction only

    As Muslims it’s our duty to condemn the conduct of the chinese parlor operators rather than criticize our own religion. It’s just like talking from both sides of your mouth !

  79. Kruman says:
    June 26th, 2007 1:10 am

    OK if there is prostitution under the facade of acupuncture and massage, that is indeed abhorrent and should be curbed.

    But the way to fight this is not by taking law into your own hands. Instead the judiciary should be made stronger, so that it has the power to summon corrupt generals, MNAs and IGs.

    Pakistan needs a revolution and I’d rather have a revolution led by lawyers than anyone else.

    Mush and his cadre of mother-fu$king generals and politicians have not only assaulted our own people in Karachi and Balochistan, they’ve even attacked our moral values.

  80. HJ says:
    June 26th, 2007 4:59 am

    And while we are huffing and puffing about Rushdi’s knighthood, the most intolerent, violent, unIslamic regime is growing right in the heart of the capital, under the very eyes of the powers that be. The blackmailers at the Lal masjid – who make the Taliban look like God’s gift to humanity – are challenging the writ of the state – and we – and the state – are powerless?

  81. axiomatic says:
    June 26th, 2007 6:14 am

    The purpose of my posts was to make people look inside them and ask themselves ‘who we are?’

    As an independent observer can starkly see, there’s nothing but confusion here.

    Please understand that my intention is not to justify in letter and spirit what Lal Masjid is doing, but to point out that we dont even know what makes us a nation.

    Lal Masjid is just a symptom of a chronic illness that is consuming our nation.

    When we speak of intolerance, we must look inside us and see how intolerant (and unworthy) we are of the true faith bestowed upon mankind.

  82. axiomatic says:
    June 26th, 2007 6:28 am

    Peacenik
    This is specially for you and those around you.

    The first thing a human being should ask him/her self is why he/she is here, where he/she came from and where will he/she end up. My belief is that in the heart of one’s heart, one knows what one ought to do. That we find it too hard to do is totally another story.

    There’s a big gap between ‘information’ and ‘action’. You’re living on an island and hurricane is coming, you have the information. Of course you will through yourself into action, collect your valuables and try to evacuate in time. The extent of one’s actions depends upon one’s belief in the information.

    Will continue later bec Ups is out.

  83. waqas says:
    June 26th, 2007 11:30 am

    lal masjid is acting as afort of islam. all muslims should appereciate administrators of lal masjid and should help them

  84. Mansoor ul Haq says:
    June 26th, 2007 12:35 pm

    Asslamoalikum dears
    I read views from different peoples on this topic which is related to “Lal Masjid, Jamia Hafsa and Massage center of Chinees people”.

    Here I want to quote essence of Hadith Sharif, where Holy Prophet has highlighted three degrees of our IMAN….

    When you see some evil try to finish that by

    Your hand…if you can not do so then
    by your mouth if you can not do so then
    perceive this an evil and something bad in your heart (its last level of one’s Iman).”

    If a person does not have last level of IMAN, he/she will favour all ROSHAN KHIYALI, ETIDAL PASANDI and off course all evils.

    I think action taken by students of Jamia Hafsa and Jamia Faridia is right according to Hadith of Hazrat Muhammad(SAW).

    If chinees are living here they have to follow Islamic laws and pakistani laws. In Massage center Sexual satisfasction was perovided on the name of Health care.
    I advice you that if you people have ambiguity about action taken by people in Lal Masjid you should visit Lal Masjid and meet with Allama Abdul Rashid Ghazi and Moulana Abdul Aziz and then you should give your comments. Only reading newspaper and consulting media is not enough. And also study Islam and then decide whether Islam allows those activies which were done in Massage Center since a long period of time.

  85. mazhar butt says:
    June 26th, 2007 5:33 pm

    Failure of the government in imparting justice to people has given rise to the present situation. I bet there is NO law or justice in Pakistan. Myriads of laws and statutes are for the weaker folks ,,,,,, laws are just like spider webs which catch small insects but not hyenas and wolves! Generally, there is No feeling of security in our country. ‘Necessity’ rules our lives and our life styles. Boom in corruption and corrupt practices at all levels has given rise to lack of honor among people. In these circumstances are quite sufficient enough to make one desperate and take law into his own hands. The girls at lal mosque have done it and why shouldnt they do it? As Muslims we shouldnt be afraid of Islamic Laws: On the one hand they ensure security,welfare, peace and justice to the people while on the other they deal with strict punishments for those who violate the law or try to commit or spread debauchery or other crimes in the society. This is the reason there are incidences of least crime in places where Islamic laws or controls are enforced. Why not enforce them in Pakistan as well?

  86. Owais Mughal says:
    June 26th, 2007 8:12 pm

    laws have to come from legislature, interpeted by judiciary and enforced by law enforcement. When ‘danda wielding’ guys (and gals) try to enforce their own interpretation of law and religion which a majority of people doesn’t agree with anyways and challenge govt’s writ, that is wrong. That is the whole reason behind this post. It is wrong to enforce vigilantism by a private entity.

  87. June 27th, 2007 1:56 am

    It is wrong to enforce vigilantism by a private entity.

    Certainly but when law enforcement agencies fail to cope with their responsibilities then society face such elements. This is not something new and it has happened in other parts of world.

    Mush is following path of Zia. Zia used Jihad/Russia Factor to blackmail USA while Mush is using “Religious Fundamentalist/Alqaeda” factor. I find no difference between lefts and rights at all.

  88. ayesha sajid says:
    June 27th, 2007 3:45 am

    The News carried an item informing its readers today that the two people out of the nine kidnapped by the Lal Masjid administration belonged to MMA. Matiullah Khan and Raqiaz Khan hailed from Bannu.One of them was visiting the massage parlour/accupuncture center for his knee pains !!
    A new twist indeed !!

    When the moderates of this world are lumped together by the self proclaimed protectors of the militants as impressed and influenced by the western media and anti Islam, then by that argument alone, one can lump together the Maulvees too. Hence should they not look unto themselves first and analyze what is wrong with thier own kith and kin before going out into the world to, so to say, correct the errant ?

    One more thing regarding the BeaconHouse school system children involved in this fiasco. Why are they being involved in this hoax, is it not thier time to concentrate on thier studies alone? These are the beacon of hope for this country, our future and for them to set aside thier priority number one , thier studies, and go around with chicks with sticks is abominable indeed !!

  89. Kruman says:
    June 27th, 2007 6:13 am

    Owais, you’ve echoes my feelings exactly. What needs to be done is to strengthen the judiciary. Police also needs a major revamp.

    Taking law into one’s hand will only lead to anarchy.

  90. axiomatic says:
    June 27th, 2007 6:38 am

    Kruman, what you and other simpletons like you dont understand is that we are living in a vicious cycle, in which the negative outputs of a corrupt process reinforce that process.

    For instance, if we take the judicial system into account, it is nearly impossible to mend, because a just system will threaten the vested interests of those in power. So why will the ‘legislature’ make such laws, and why would the ‘establishment’ enforce them?

    Why would rulers educate this nation in the real sense, if they thrive on peoples’ ignorance? Do you think in Pakistan,under the current system, there will ever be a day when a regular constable stops and books a minister for drunk driving? You are indeed very simple, and you arguments simplistic.

    Nothing will happen as long as we dont change this system, and if you think this system can be changed while living inside this system, you are dead wrong. And only time will prove it.

  91. Nazir says:
    June 27th, 2007 7:11 am

    Isn’t Beacon House school system owned by foreign minister Kasuri’s family? What is his take on this?

  92. zagi says:
    June 27th, 2007 9:47 am

    I want to say big big thanks to ‘Mullah of Lal Masjid’ for proving another saying of Holy Prophet Muhammad SAW ” Mullah will be the worst among people”.

  93. riz says:
    June 27th, 2007 12:06 pm

    thans to the maker minds of this site that, icame across? iam Riz.
    i am deeply impressed with the views of my old& intact friend Maani

  94. riz says:
    June 27th, 2007 12:12 pm

    i say to all those lil mentally challenged fellow muslims in this appealingly moderate debate that i am just a lost fellow, confused even or may b a hypocrite but deep down kn it clearly that its all 100 rer rite! yet i dnt criticize others as i m lost & confused the why satan is so stronger thn i am where as my self esteem was nvr willing to give up to disgrase or falling fr grase to that level by the way may b sm of us u nvr know? ve lwr lvl thn mine?

  95. mazhar butt says:
    June 27th, 2007 1:17 pm

    >>>Kruman, what you and other simpletons like you dont understand is that we are living in a vicious cycle, in which the negative outputs of a corrupt process reinforce that process.

    For instance, if we take the judicial system into account, it is nearly impossible to mend, because a just system will threaten the vested interests of those in power. So why will the ‘legislature’ make such laws, and why would the ‘establishment’ enforce them?

    Why would rulers educate this nation in the real sense, if they thrive on peoples’ ignorance? Do you think in Pakistan,under the current system, there will ever be a day when a regular constable stops and books a minister for drunk driving? You are indeed very simple, and you arguments simplistic.

    Nothing will happen as long as we dont change this system, and if you think this system can be changed while living inside this system, you are dead wrong. And only time will prove it.>>>>>

    I fully endorse the above views of ‘axiomatic’ and must add that if nothing else could be done by the government at the moment it should atleast enforce Islamic punishments for reformation purposes,,,,,,,,,

    Unless some ”rogues” are beheaded publicly and stoned to death our society will never change!

  96. Lahori says:
    June 27th, 2007 1:29 pm

    Interesting analysis on Lal Masjid situation by Adil Najam here
    http://www.thenews.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=61940

  97. ayesha sajid says:
    June 27th, 2007 1:57 pm

    Inspite of my views against the admin of Lal Masjid and how they are going about doing things , i tend to agree with mr. Mazhar Butt …. “Unless some

  98. Abbasi says:
    June 28th, 2007 12:18 am

    After having a keen eye at the whole argument, I can’t keep myself aside. I think that most of you people are looking at the issue with only a single perspective. You feel free to criticize Lal Masjid Clerics and students but why you don’t criticize the govt which is giving free hand to those who are spreading obscene culture in Pakistan and in Islamabad(look at the name of the city, ISLAMabad,). You pople are looking at the situation from a far place, if you inquire from those living in Islamabad you can understand the reality. Whole Islamabad knows about the obscenity centre of F-8/3 and Brothel opened by Shamim(I would not like to say her aunti).
    As far as the question is concerned that who gave authority to Lal Masjid Ulemas and students to rectify the thoughts of the people and remove the immoralities, the answer is that Islam gave this authority, not only to them but also the every muslim. It is clearly stated in Hadith, that If you see a person commiting a sin, stop with your hands, if you can’t do so, stop with your tongue, if you can’t even do so, then atleast consider it bad in your heart which is the lowest degree of Eman.
    So, it is really a sad thing that most of us are not even in the last category.
    so girls and guys!!!! For God sake, if you can’t do a good thing, then atleast don’t criticize those who are doing so.

  99. June 28th, 2007 12:57 am

    yar abbasi bhai …the issue is not one of the morality of society or of the moral decadence we see recently….
    its not even a battle between liberal ‘burgers’ and hardline ‘fundos’…

    i am proud to be a muslim and of course i abhor the recent slump in censorship, lawlessness and our increasing tolerance for sin…

    the issue is supremacy of law…something stressed numerous times in our sharia….a lot rests on hakim e waqt….some ulema say that even jihad is void unless endorsed by the ruler of the land….

    we are told to obey the law of the land unless it crosses islamic law….and encroachment, kidnap, extortion are not islamic law…

    this, ladies and gents…is a classic case of what muslims are doing wrong….the niyat is pure…(which is why many people wholeheartedly support the red moque)….but the means is tainted….

    the quran states and warns of people in sin who spread mischief , but who believe that they are on the right path….the litmus test of such people is their self rigteousness…..and one who believes themself to be a better muslim than others has in his lack of humbleness doomed themselves….the people of lal masjid are doing the same….they seem to say “we know islam better than anyone else, hence we have the right to impose it”

    khuda ka khauf kero yar.

  100. Aqil Sajjad says:
    June 28th, 2007 1:15 am

    I agree with the above remarks about rule of law and the need to avoid taking the law into our hands.

    But just to add another point, rule of law includes the state enforcing its laws consistently.

    Among other things, that means no brothels should be allowed to operate in Pakistan since this is against the law. We all know how state authorities knowingly take no action against brothels.

    Enforcing the law would also mean taking action against lal masjid for its land encroachments and other actions that amount to an open rebellion against the state.

    Unless the state clearly acts on both fronts, it will not have any credibility. It will also lack credibility if it acts against lal masjid while allowing land encroachments by the ruling elite. Laws need to be applied uniformly otherwise we risk anarchy.

  101. tina says:
    June 28th, 2007 1:48 am

    MangoMilkshake–

    it is less a moral issue than the issue of inequity which Aqil hints at and which I have stated directly. Of course this boils down to a moral issue but on both sides.

    As one poster noted, can anybody even imagine a minister getting challan….

  102. June 28th, 2007 2:11 am

    THANK YOU Aqil Sajjad bhai! you said it better than i wished to ! bravo!

  103. June 28th, 2007 2:22 am

    Aqil sahab the whole city Islamabad is the biggest encroachments on face of Pakistan. We should getrid of this biggest encroachments first if we are serious about illegal things.

  104. zagi says:
    June 28th, 2007 7:44 am

    Thank you, Abbasi Bhai for giving your views about Lal musjid “mullahs

  105. axiomatic says:
    June 28th, 2007 9:42 am

    zagi

    Please understand that my purpose is not to argue with you but to try to clarify a few things. I shall try to answer all your questions one by one. But most importantly, I shall answer the last part of your post.

    ‘Lets kidnap all prostitutes from all over Pakistan (although its against Islam)’

    Exaggeration and over generalization. It’s one incident we are talking about. Their purpose ‘might be to tell ‘us’ that all is not right. It’s because of the Hafsa ‘brigade’ that we have discussed, and more importantly, realized on these pages a few things that may matter. Dont you think so?

    ‘Lets stand against the rules of the government where we living (although its against saying of my loving prophet Muhammad SAW)’

    Which rules? That the poor will always suffer? That the rich will keep looting the poor? That incompetent morally corrupt richmen will always rule? Or the rule that Islam will never be allowed in this country. The thing is, even Allah doesnt change the destiny of a nation unless it doesnt think of it itself.

    ‘Lets have “Dundas

  106. zagi says:
    June 28th, 2007 10:53 am

    Thank you, for your views but brother my question is still there. Let me explain it again.

    The views and actions of Lal Masjid Admin (Those may be sharper than you and me) are justified in Islam or not? Or at least one action or view is worthy enough to follow?

  107. Adnan Siddiqi says:
    June 28th, 2007 2:17 pm

    zagi, their intentions/views are right but not the way they are taking actions. Situation was infinite time worst at the time of Prophet(saw),specially the bloody Taif incident when pagans made our prophet(saw) wounded and even in presence of power of Allah,he chose not to destroy them. Look due to “violent” factor, their good deeds are not being appreciated.

    This evening I read on TV that Film Directors Association has contacted Lal Masjid to stop the release of Indian Movie “Awara Pan”- Surely Lal Masjid people are getting popular day by day :-)

  108. Ibrahim says:
    June 29th, 2007 1:39 am

    Salamalikum,

    Zagi, you have asked very good questions. Jazakallahu khairan for asking. I think Adnan Siddiqi has summed up the answers for you in his last post. Just to reiterate, here is a news item in Dawn:

    “Ulema slam seminary’s coercive measures” (http://www.dawn.com/2007/06/29/top7.htm)

    Also, you might want to read my earlier comments above on this post.

  109. LM says:
    July 3rd, 2007 4:51 am

    Looks like an action is going to be taken against Lal Masjid fanatics. One of the rangers has died as a result of firing from so called \\\’Talaba\\\’. I am watching live telelcast on Geo and situation looks bad.

  110. sd khan says:
    July 3rd, 2007 5:44 pm

    yar its rediculus…………let the pakistan fly high plzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

  111. Waqas Ahmad Qureshi says:
    July 3rd, 2007 5:52 pm

    I was surprised when i heard about such a funny story of “MULLAS” of lal masjid.What is this, actually mulla mean the leader of whole nation but ……? So I m in relly sad condition.

  112. mazhar butt says:
    July 3rd, 2007 11:50 pm

    The ‘protesters’ at the Lal Masjid could be simply termed as dissidents and it is by no means fair of the military or the military regime to take such bloody action against them. If Pakistan were were a democratic country as bragged about by the government and the pro-democrats of the country, fascist action such as the present one could have been avoided. Unfortunately, I feel sorry to say that most of our people are ‘hypocrites’, especially in the governing sector, and it is expressly stated in the holy Quran that muslims are free to wage a Jihad against them Consequently, the attitude of the Hafsa mosque group is not totally unjustified as they are certainly up against the hypocrites…..the hypocrites who are afraid of enforcing any version of Islam in the country, who knowingly allow brothels to be run and are infact earning from them, those who indulge in narcotics, human smuggling, rape, murder, bribery, corruption,robbery and stealth of public money,who live beyond their means, indulge in nepotism, usurp national resources, intimidate people, bungle away Zakat funds,etc, and those that are fattening on the national exchequer. After all some has to voice its proptest against them. Why then blame people at the Hafsa Mosque?

  113. mazhar butt says:
    July 4th, 2007 2:14 am

    Peacenik >>>.

    As a Muslim you seem to forget that we are supposed to have blind faith in our religion, especially the holy Quran and its teachings. If someone doubts it or question its status, as is the case with of some surahs not yet clearly understood due to the ‘incapacity of human brain’, he is not following his religion. If a Christian says ‘Jesus is God” he may be wrong but he is right if he sticks to his belief. Similarly it goes on with followers of other religions. However, a few muslims unfortunately feel pride in mocking their own religion and criticizing it just for the sake of criticism. This is where they are wrong. Instead of trying to learn their own religion they blindly follow ”personalities’ and are overwhelmed with whatever they hear from their mouths. Instead they ought to ponder and learn by themselves. Often It’s a matter of simple commonsense. As for intolerance to criticism I may add that Muslims usually do not like criticism of their religion or beliefs. No one does.Not even a christian or a Hindu for that purpose. The criticism you find in the West is mainly due to their socio-cultural structure. Change that and they would stop criticizing. Martin Luther criticized and brought revolution in the Christian world. Only healthy criticism is tolerable not abusive and slanderous one which please note.

  114. tariq mustufa kashmir says:
    July 6th, 2007 12:48 am

    Asalamu-Aliekum vrvb.
    It is to the all pakistani people who are backing the high drama of ignorant Lal Masjid Runners. Do you know anything about research and development in the scientific field? please be a true muslim. These extrimist portion of muslims like Lal Masjid Runners, are embarassing and threat to the Islamic World. Do you know any Mullah who has backed the scientific development in the region? The true muslim in the eyes of Allaha is who advocates the research and development in the scientific field among the muslims and non-muslims. Islam is the religion of knowledge but how we present this to the world? It is strange that lalmasjid people are really backward and stone age people.
    I feel that if we want to be developed in true sense then we have to set free every human according to his wills under rules and regulations determined by the Islam and the modern circumstances. For example why u want to stop brothels operating in your region. If you are true muslims, then they will stop automatically as noone will visit them. Then you blame them for this when you yourself can,t stop going there. It is very strange that you go to the mosque and alos you visit the brothel. Please be of one nature otherwise you make adultary and confusion to the concept of Islam.
    Islam has freed all the human beings from pressures and burdans but at the same time it has washed our minds from all the evil. I hope all of us will be true muslims in true sense, Insha Allaha. WASALAAM.

  115. FSK says:
    July 10th, 2007 1:01 am

    Poor chinese bahi, humari larai mein waisay he maaray gaye!

  116. Majid saleem says:
    July 23rd, 2007 5:07 pm

    i am from pakistan. i am also muslim. i love every muslim where ever he is living . in short , all condition of rashid gazi was true and correct but method of applying formula o islam was not good if he didn’t do that ,the name of islam will not pale. islam mean is peace full and if our mulana which is guider of islam if they will do that who will say that islam is right . nonmuslim will happy and they will foind time for attack on muslim . then why we give time to nonmuslim. we have to avoid it. i m also live in islamabad near lal mosque in G-7/2.in end allah will prevent from all nongood happend.but this happend is not showing all madaras and mosque .

  117. Majid saleem says:
    July 23rd, 2007 5:16 pm

    Allah-u-Akbar ka narra uncha hay this name is on sky

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